Odd Iai Kanji?

[ScottUK]

Anyone seen this kanji before?

http://www.martialartworks.co.uk/05_Iaido/Iaido_store.htm



Scott

[Kit LeBlanc]

Yeah,

This says "I -KI-DO"

As in Ki like aikido.

[Daniel Lee]

Say Scott,

you're from England - isn't this the art the Goodies made up?? ;)

Daniel Lee

[Paul Steadman]

Hi Daniel,

I remember that, I think they called it "Eggy-thump,"(sp?) an ancient Gaelich combat art utilising a black puddin' (yummy). I liked Graeme Gardens' delayed death touch techniques he applied applied to Tim Brook-Taylor:laugh:

Cheers,

Paul Steadman

[Paul Steadman]

G'day Scott,

I checked the site. They obviously have a kanji template that can be mixed and matched to make up very authentic looking hand calliagraphed kanji scrolls. Except you can see that the recurring kanji are exact copies (right down to the brush marks vanishing at the end of a stroke), also they made a mistake by mix-matching the kanji for "ki," with "ai," and placed it between "i'" and "do," to try and make "I-ai-do," but they come up with "i-ki-do.":confused:

Regards,

Paul Steadman

[jason_Ayers_100]

Hi Guys,

This is my site. Woops:p

Sorry about that,

Have corrected the mistake now.

We have a selection of Kanji prints that we have created and put the wrong one in. Nevermind eh, all is well and good now!

These products are Kanji Prints and are not origionals and therefor the brush strokes will be repeated here and there. Selling prints is how we keep the price down on these, the origionals are very expensive if done correctly.

But we can supply this service and have an oriental artist on hand to do this kind of work.

Anyways check out the sight again, it has been updated and has some new Iai info on.

Cheers.
:wave:

[Mark Brecht]

Dear Mr Ayers,

These products are Kanji Prints and are not origionals...

Yes, I did recognize immediatly that the shodo was done by Ms Takese.

I must admit that I am a bit curious, if she is aware that you are reproducing her work commercially? Piece you offer are shown on her website. As her work is copyrighted (any artwork is automatically copyright), I assume you received the rights and permission from her to do this?

the origionals are very expensive if done correctly...

Depends where you shop... :smokin:

we can supply this service and have an oriental artist

If you are refering to Ms Takase, I think you should use the term "asian". I have many Asian friends from various countries who take offense of being called oriental.

Sincerely,
Mark Brecht

[jason_Ayers_100]

Hi Mark

Thanks for your comments, especially the idea of using the term "asian" as oppose to "oriental" - I'll review the text when I next update the site as the last thing I want to do is cause offence to anybody. As far as the Kanji are concerned, I have had them produced by a local artist who has supplied me with the images to use for a one off payment for each picture used. I have then used the various components where necessary to produce variations on a theme (the i-ki-do is an example of how it shouldn't be done!) so as to keep the production costs to a minium. I hope that this clears up any confusion.

Jason

[Mark Brecht]

Jason,

let me repeat my question:

Did you receive permission form Ms Takese to reproduce her copyrighted artwork ? ? ?

There is no doubt in my mind that shodo displayed on your site is hers (anybody can take a look at both websites and see it easily). As far as I know she is located in the State of Florida in the USA and not in the UK.

[Mark Brecht]

Interesting...

W H A T happend to your site...???

You might want to remember that it is pretty easy to save images and websites off the web...

[Mark Brecht]

Just grabbing his quotes for the record, before they dissapear like the website...


Originally posted by jason_Ayers_100
Hi Guys,

This is my site. Woops:p

Sorry about that,

Have corrected the mistake now.

We have a selection of Kanji prints that we have created and put the wrong one in. Nevermind eh, all is well and good now!

These products are Kanji Prints and are not origionals and therefor the brush strokes will be repeated here and there. Selling prints is how we keep the price down on these, the origionals are very expensive if done correctly.

But we can supply this service and have an oriental artist on hand to do this kind of work.

Anyways check out the sight again, it has been updated and has some new Iai info on.

Cheers.
:wave:

[Mark Brecht]

Let`s keep this one also...


Originally posted by jason_Ayers_100
Hi Mark

Thanks for your comments, especially the idea of using the term "asian" as oppose to "oriental" - I'll review the text when I next update the site as the last thing I want to do is cause offence to anybody. As far as the Kanji are concerned, I have had them produced by a local artist who has supplied me with the images to use for a one off payment for each picture used. I have then used the various components where necessary to produce variations on a theme (the i-ki-do is an example of how it shouldn't be done!) so as to keep the production costs to a minium. I hope that this clears up any confusion.

Jason

[jason_Ayers_100]

Interesting how things develop through the course of an evening meal! Firstly Mark, I must say that I'm a little concerned about the tone of your red e-mail. I have an arrangement with a UK based artist, the details of which I have agreed in good faith and are strictly between ourseleves. I have visited the Takase website and agree that there are indeed striking similarities between our Kanji and those on display on this site. This is an issue that I will take up with the artist that I have employed with a matter of urgency. I will be keeping you informed of any progress via this bulletin board. Secondly, you are the 20th person today to tell me that the site is down - this comes as no surprise as my ISP isn't the most reliable at present, so I suggest that you do as other people and revisit it in a few hours or in the morning. I do hope that you're not suggesting that I have intentionally removed the site? Anyway, thank you for your observation.

[cheis_davis_aik]

Hi guys, Just to let you know that i have purchsed a few of these Kanji in the past and they were excellent!!!

Dunno about the Takase thing but as far as im concered i like the one's i have got.

Check out the Iaido Kanji and you will see that they aint the same as takases!

Anyways this aint the place for an argument!

speak to ya soon.

C

:nono:

[Iain_G]

I am usually just a reader of Martial Art’s forums and message boards, as a beginner I can find out a lot of useful information and links regarding areas and techniques I need to help my progression. I feel so strongly about what has been said and accused here that I felt it necessary to register and post something.

These messages are complete nonsense; it seems to me as though Mark Brecht is throwing around accusations before he has any proof. It looks to me that he is trying to kill two birds with one stone, firstly slandering Martial Artwork’s name and also advertising another company at the same time.

Probably an excellent business strategy, but to me Martial Arts are a way of escaping that area of life. I can only be classed as a novice Martial Artist but I regularly read many message boards and look to gain insight and knowledge from my seniors. I really loathe it when it slips into commerciality.

As having purchased artwork from both the “Kanji” and “Zen” collections that www.martialartworks.co.uk offer and working with Mr. Ayers, I can vouch for both the quality of his products and the honesty and integrity under which he does business.

I have given M.A. much IT support and assistance, but unfortunately they were already signed to their ISP when I started contracting for them. I want to make clear to you all that their providers do offer a terrible level of service and support and dispel another of Mark’s subtle accusations. Their site is often unreachable or unusable (a problem I hope to fix for them soon).

Anyone wishing to contact me directly concerning M.A. regarding anything that I have mentioned or any slanderous comments made towards Mr. Ayers and his company can do so on it_support@blueyonder.co.uk.

I hope no one thinks I have spoken out of turn or disrespected anyone. That has not been my intention. I just want to offer another side to the comments that are being made here.

I hope this is of use.

Kindest Regards

Iain

UK

[John Lindsey]

I will let our members decide...

Here is Takase's:

[John Lindsey]

And here is the other guy's:

[John Lindsey]

Takase:

[John Lindsey]

and his:

[John Lindsey]

I think that there is no doubt that the Takase kanji were used as a basis of these other pictures. The problem is that copyright laws can be tricky sometimes. What Jason has done is to change the original kanji thru what appears to be a photo imaging software such as Photoshop. Now, Takase is actively in the business of selling her kanji, so I assume that they would have an issue with this. Sure, the image is distorted, but the shape remains basically the same. I will let the lawyers decide if any laws are broken.

But, Jason has stated that the kanji come from a local source, rather than Ms. Takase. It might be that this artist used the Takase kanji without Jason’s knowledge, so it might be a bit too early to blame him. But, he is responsible for the product he is selling and I hope he looks into this matter...

[Ian Remi]

Since I had a little extra time this morning at work, I thought I'd take a closer look at both the kan and ryuu kanji in question. I'm not even sure if I should be doing this. I do not want to violate any copyright laws nor do I want to make things worse... but I thought It may be amusing to try and quantify any differences between the supposed copy and original.

Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert in shodo nor forgery but simply took the images and set them up side by side.

Kan:

A. Takase's has more of a rounded feel to it, less 'pointy' than our supposed copy. Takase's almost looks like the profile of a thumb whereas the other does not.

B. Takase's point seems to trail off whereas martialartworks.co.uk's stops more abruptly. As well, it almost looks like martialartworks's point splits in two at the ends.

C. There is a continuity of the brush stroke in Takase's kanji that is not present in the other. Martialartworks.co.uk's is thick and visibly breaks, whereas Takase's stroke thins out but does not completely break.

D. Takase's stroke is smooth and fades off by the tip. The tip is also much closer to the down stroke on the left of the tip. Martialartworks.co.uk's tip is less smooth and more vertical (not curving to the left as it goes up).

E. Again, Takase's brush stroke fades out by the tip nice and smooth, the other does not. One anomaly I can see is a definitive 'notch' on the bottom right side of the stroke in Martialartworks.co.uk's kanji. Looking closely at Takase's kanji, there is no definitive 'notch' however you can almost make one out. It would become much more visible if the contrast were adjusted or a type of photocopy or cutout filter applied to it.

[Ian Remi]

Ryuu:

A. The Takase kanji is somewhat different in it being thinner.

B. Again, the Takase kanji fades out better at the tip. Smoother brush stroke.

C. The Takase kanji is more vertical, the tip points straight down. The other kanji has a slight curve to the right for the tip.

D. The tips are slightly different.

E. These two tips look darn similar.

There are a lot of similarities between the two kanji as well as differences. I make no claim martialartworks.co.uk's is a direct copy or was inspired by the Takase kanji, was digitally edited and photochopped, or that this is all just a coicidence. Maybe I've just taken too many art history classses.

Make of it what you will.

[fifthchamber]

Hi all,
Again I AM NO EXPERT on this subject..However..To me it seems perhaps less of a case of direct 'stealing' of Takase's Kanji and more what would happen if one tried to follow the strokes and patterns laid down (Beautifully...) by Takase-San in the original.
Wether this is a legal sticking point I have no idea..However I would look at finding a new 'designer' for the 'Martialartworks' patterns..It seems likely that He/She has been using this pattern because of its artistic quality and passing it off as 'Original' (It clearly isn't).
Mr. Ayers..I would look a bit closer at the 'expert' behind your copies..Perhaps put all these points to him and see what the outcome is here..reaction-wise.
Direct copy? Maybe not. But it is still NOT original and should not be offered as an original work...Sorry if I offend anyone here..Not my intention..It seems that somewhere someone was not 100% honest and Mr.Ayers caught the flack..
Abayo.

[Chi]

A simple contrast alteration in Photoshop would convert the greyish edges where the brush strokes slope off (a la Ms Takase's) into the more profound and thicker black strokes of Brand B's.

As an example, I attach the source image submitted by Ian, after a simple +75 contrast adjustment.

I would view this personally as suspect, but can you possibly claim copyright on a letter? :)

Regards,

Chris.

--
Christian Cooper

(Edited for AWOL .sig)

[John Lindsey]

Just for fun, I put them on top of each other, with the top one set for 50%. Can someone copy this by hand so closely? Please remember that Jason says he got his kanji from a 3rd person. So, we have only heard from 2/3 of those involved. BTW, Mr. Takase wishes to thank everyone here who has posted their views...

:look:

[Ian Remi]

Interesting indeed. They overlap very nicely.

If Ms. Takase has seen this post and is aware of the situation, she would be the best person to offer an opinion so far if her work was indeed used. Her skills as a calligrapher are worlds better than my feeble eyes and rudimentary photoshop skills.

I sincerely hope she does not mind me using her online images for comparison in this post.

[cheis_davis_aik]

Hi Guys,

Just a quicky!

I have spoken to Jason about this matter. I had perchased things from him before (and was very pleased). He has now deleted all of this material from his website as descussions with Ms Takase and his 'artist' (more of a con-man i recon) are in progress!

Jason is obviously very upset about this matter because the company is new and paid good money for the work and has now found this stuff out!

He also said that he was very greatful for all the input because it had highlighted the problem.

As i understand it the majority of the work on the site, Martial arts related, are original to Martial Artworks. You can all check them out. N see what you think?

This company is very sincere and i KNOW that all involved are on top of things in order to straighten it out.

Anyways, nice work with the comparisons. Just thought i'd add my little bit!

cheers All.


:cool: