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Nicolas Caron
5th February 2002, 02:27
Ok, first I have to say that I am not myself a teacher, I will only relate some stuff that I've been "aware" of.

In the dojo where I train there's been a bunch of new students lately (wonder if it's a generalized trend or if it's just at our place... anyway), among those there is a girl. Tonight after class she came to me and mentionned that she felt the teacher is "patronizing" her a little bit more than the other students. She felt that he might have been having a more protective attitude towards her than towards the other students. I have not myself noticed this since I have not practiced with her much, but I don't see anything that should justify such an attitude from the teacher since she seems to be learning much more faster than some of the other new students. She said that it's not to a point where it's really annoying her... yet.

My question is, if this persist what action should she take? I also wonder if some of you have seen similar things happen and if so what was done to remedy to the situation.

Rogier
5th February 2002, 06:51
she should tell the teacher she has the feeling he/her is patronizing her and if this is true. If so then she should just ask the teacher to stop it.

girlychuks
5th February 2002, 17:44
As a new female student myself. I came in with the attitude of "They better not treat ME like a girly" I thought I was doing Ok, but I noticed that my instructors were indeed being quite a bit more gentle and slow with me then some of the other students. I harrumphed a bit and got a bit pouty.
Then I got the opportunity to work out with a brown belt who had no problem treating me like a brute. Choke holds, strikes, chin-nas till my shoulders popped.
I think now that the way my instructors were treating me had more to do with my rank, the fact that i was just beginning, than my sex. If I had been manhandled like that my first few weeks I would have fled in terrror.
See, they got me hooked on the forms and gentle stuff, and waited until I was addicted. Then I got the first frontal punch, but it was all too late. I'm there for life.
I would tell her to wait. The quality of the instruction will show itself.SHe just started, and the beating may be slow in coming, but they are coming.-Cathy SMith

Margaret Lo
5th February 2002, 18:33
Originally posted by Nicolas Caron

In the dojo where I train there's been a bunch of new students lately (wonder if it's a generalized trend or if it's just at our place... anyway), among those there is a girl. Tonight after class she came to me and mentionned that she felt the teacher is "patronizing" her a little bit more than the other students. She felt that he might have been having a more protective attitude towards her than towards the other students.

How old is this girl? Is she a minor?
How tall is she? How much does she weigh?
What sports did she ever play?

All these factors enter into a teacher's assessment of a new student.
It is not uncommon for new students to overestimate what they can really tolerate, and teachers should be cautious about the level of contact a new student can actually take vs. what they say they can take.

In my experience, young women new to martial arts often take longer to acclimate to getting hit or doing the hitting, because fewer women than men played any kind of rough and tumble team sports. Once acclimated, however, it should be no problem.

M

bgb
5th February 2002, 18:35
Nicolas,

Was this person asking you for a reality check or for support in contacting the instructor?

I agree with Girlychuks in that "extra help" can be due to many reasons including rank, personality, age, and size as well as gender. Whatever the cause, the uncomfortable feeling remains and should be addressed. It may be as simple as your keeping on eye on her and reassuring her that the instructor's actions toward her are "normal" and as she proves herself, she will be pushed more. If, however, you feel she IS getting off easy, or she still feels this way after your discussion with her, she must contact the instructor. If the instructor is good, he will listen and adjust. If he doesn't, she is better off elsewhere, as harsh as this may sound.

Barb Bloom

Nicolas Caron
6th February 2002, 17:23
First thank you all for your asnwers.

Cathy, I understand your point, but she told me she felt she was treated a little more "lightly" than the other new students. You might be right and this might be due to the fact that she's had 2 less class than most of them... I think this is why she chose the "wait and see" approach about it too.

Margaret, she is not a minor (although I don't know of her exact age) and she's been practicing judo and a bit of aikido before. She's not the smallest student in the class and as I said she seems to be picking up on stuff really fast.

Barb, I think she was trying to verify if her impressions were true when she spoke to me about it. Although I have not been aware of anything special I will pay more attention at our next class (tonight). I'm pretty confident that if there is a problem our sensei is not doing it consciouly and would readjust himself if sopken to about it.

I will come back to you about it after tonight's class...

Gary Dolce
7th February 2002, 17:25
Nicolas,

If she is not a minor, why do you refer to her as a "girl"? Would you refer to an adult male as a "boy"? Perhaps the patronizing attitudes start with the language people use. If you refer to the women in your dojo as if they were children, they may end up feeling as if they are treated like children.

Nicolas Caron
7th February 2002, 17:48
Sorry Gary, just a slight mistake from my part, see english is my second language and I sometime make those kind of mistakes... In french (well at least in Quebec... can't speak for other french speaking places) it is totally acceptable to call a young woman a "fille" which would be translated to "girl" in english. Difference is that it does not convey that "children" feel to it when we say it here (although it does convey a sense of youth as in mid 20s youth).

Hope this clarifies my mistake and I mostly hope that I did not offend anyone or was misunderstood.

girlychuks
7th February 2002, 17:54
I for one wasn't offended.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if I get called a woman or a girl in the dojo, just as long as I learn to fight.

Now call me a "beltbunny", and you're going to be hurtin.
-Cathy

Laotse
9th February 2002, 03:47
Years ago, in my 20s, I was taking TKD from a guy I really admired. I was about 24 or so, he was 32 I think. There was a "girl" in the class, about my age, the same belt level (around 7th gup/kyu). She had a temperamental disaffinity for me -- she chose not to like me -- and I tried to put up with her immaturity by keeping my distance. In a class of a ten or fifteen this is obviously difficult.

Anyway, the teacher developed an apparent fondness for her, and she did not discourage it. I didn't care, no one did, except for this: seeing her active disdain for me, he began "taking sides" against me in various ways that made my continuing there untenable.

More than anger, more than sadness, I felt disappointment with the teacher that I admired. To this day it makes me think that ANY student-teacher relationship of this sort can be very dangerous, even among adults. It may not be taboo, and sometimes it works out (as it did for Bruce Lee), but the odds are against it.

KenpoKev
9th February 2002, 04:41
Instructor's perspective: I have about 15 female students in my adult program, out of about 40 active participants. The class ranges in age from 13 to early 50's. Most of the women are between 13 and 40. I am very cautious with ALL beginning students and take extra effort to avoid unnecessary contact, in particular with female students.

For instance, when showing the striking point to the floating rib (Stomach 14) I will point to the spot on a male student rather than female, due to the close proximity of forbidden areas. I do not tolerate inappropriate contact between Sempai and students. At the same time, once a student has trained for an extended period, the physical contact may increase, but not in an inappropriate manner. Students need to understand and feel the effects of being struck, lest they be unprepared in a real confrontation, however to do so at an early stage of training only serves to drive the majority away.

Just my .02 worth.

Jon S.
10th February 2002, 21:03
Lots of good points. If your fellow student forgets any issues, whether they're real or imagined, and focuses on training hard, then the problem will go away by itself. If it doesn't or it gets worse, then she should do something starting with addressing the problem directly with the teacher.

Jon Small

Nicolas Caron
11th February 2002, 05:10
Yeah having talked about it again with her, she said it was not to a point where it was detrimental to her training. She seems to have decided to take a "wait and see" approach. I guess proving to the teacher that she does not need patronizing should solve the problem, although I am sure if it doesn't stop it will be adressed in other ways.

Ermac6
12th February 2002, 04:38
Everyone at our dojo (girl or boy) are treated the same. I actually found it pretty scary to spar or do a technique with a girl, they are very very good and yet can be very dangerous :). Not too many girls like to be treated differently then the rest of the students. Just thought I would share this to let you all know how I feel about girl students.

Brent Leach

Ishinguy
20th February 2002, 20:35
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
Nicolas,

If she is not a minor, why do you refer to her as a "girl"? Would you refer to an adult male as a "boy"? Perhaps the patronizing attitudes start with the language people use. If you refer to the women in your dojo as if they were children, they may end up feeling as if they are treated like children.

Lighten up, don't the women in your life have a 'Girls night out'
Don't men have 'Girlfriends' that aren't minors ? Please lets keep the political correctness BS out of the forums.
Just my humble opinion ! :smash:

:toast:

Ishinguy
20th February 2002, 20:39
Having female Martial artist friends I have been told by more than one that they were really nervous about getting hurt when they first started out . Probably most guys are as well but they won't admit it !:( But Instructors will often ease the new student in slowly as not to scare them off. Your friend should not be offended but if she feels she can take more then she should let her Sensei know in a polite way.

bgb
21st February 2002, 17:25
Darn it!

I had hoped to stay out of this but I really feel I must jump in...

I feel Gary is 100% correct regarding labels. Although Nicolas didn't offend me as the tone of his post clearly showed he was trying to help the WOMAN involved, calling an adult female a girl is patronizing. It may be common, but that doesn't make it right.

A group can also use terms for themselves without giving up the right to be offended when others use the same term. One of my friends calls himself "the nigger." It is generally understood that the rest of us with lighter skin are NOT to call him that. Same general thing with "girls night out."

Thank you,
Barb Bloom

bgb
21st February 2002, 17:28
I can not believe I just used the "n" word in public. Sorry...

Barb Bloom :(