PDA

View Full Version : Significance of Numbers in Koryu Jujutsu?



SBreheney
6th February 2002, 06:37
A dojo mate recently asked me about the significance of the numbers 5 and 8 in Japanese Buddhism. The Noble Eightfold Path of Buddhism generally, and the "gorin" or five elements in Shingon Buddhism came to mind.

But after some discussion it became clear that what he really wanted to know was if there was some significance attached to various numbers in Japanese culture in general, and in koryu jujutsu in particular. Can anyone comment, or recommend any further resources?

My friend is a long-time judoka with a recently acquired interest in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu; apparently something in either their kata or his judo experience has inspired his inquiry.

Many thanks.

Sean M. Breheney
Pacific Grove, CA

Daniel Lee
6th February 2002, 07:10
Gogyo sosei (creative cycle of the 5 elements) and gogyo sokaku (destructive cycle of the 5 elements) are an important part of sappo instruction in some systems of koryu jujutsu emphasising striking. The number five also refers to divisions of the body. There is also the 'gogyo no oshie' (benevolence, justice, courtesy, wisdom and faith) - five virtues - one for each finger! Do others focus on the numbers 5 or 8 from a differing perspective?

-------------

Daniel Lee

Paul Steadman
10th February 2002, 09:27
G'day All,

Love him or hate him, but S. K. Hayes (of Bujinkan fame) has written a lot on numerology in martial arts. Especially on his take of Hatsumi Sensei's Bujinkan system and especially Togakure-ryu. Anyway just a thought.

Also their seems to be a trend for numbering things within the martial arts that focuses on minimalising the quotient eg:

*Happo-giri (eight basic cutting trajectories of the sword, based on Nakamura Sensei's ideas on happo ei-ji [sp?], or the 8 basic brush strokes of shodo [calligraphy] that forms a basis for myriad other strokes). The number 8 has a connection with Buddhism.

*Goho-giri (5 basic cutting tractectories of the sword from which all sword cuts can eminate from, based on teachings stemming from Obata Sensei in such systems such as Shinkendo and Shintodo). The number 5 as has been mentioned can be connected with the 5 elements.

Hey Daniel I'm still waiting for your e-mail, my address is acjca@telstra.com , all the best.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Nathan Scott
13th February 2002, 00:22
Mr. Steadman,


Goho-giri (5 basic cutting tractectories of the sword from which all sword cuts can eminate from, based on teachings stemming from Obata Sensei in such systems such as Shinkendo and Shintodo). The number 5 as has been mentioned can be connected with the 5 elements.

I'd like to offer clarification on a few things you wrote here to avoid misinterpretation.

We don't have anything called "goho-giri" in Shinkendo.

Obata Toshishiro sensei founded Shinkendo, but had nothing to do with an art called "Shintodo", which was formed by one of his ex-students in Australia. I don't know what they teach in this art, but it is not Shinkendo.

If you are referring to the five basic postures (kamae), they are also found in Kendo. However, "all" sword cuts do not come from these five postures only.

As far as the number thing, odd numbers in general are favored over even ones. There are some specific things as well, like the numbers 4 and 9, that are disliked because of the associations derived from how these numbers are pronunced (in Japanese).

Mr. Lee probably has the best reasons though, and would probably be better suited to speak on the subject.

Regards,

Paul Steadman
13th February 2002, 03:42
Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the clarification, I realise that I was being a little too generalised in my post. Thanks again.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Yami
25th January 2005, 00:18
Originally posted by Nathan Scott


Obata Toshishiro sensei founded Shinkendo, but had nothing to do with an art called "Shintodo", which was formed by one of his ex-students in Australia. I don't know what they teach in this art, but it is not Shinkendo.



Mr Scott,

I am a student of Shintodo of which you mentioned, the ex-student you are talking about is Andrew Melito sensei. We practice battoken, gekken, suburi, kata and mato-giri. I thought I would raise since you mentioned it. Do you by any chance have information on Melito sensei, or Toshishiro sensei? I am researching our art and would appreciate any information.

Regards,

Louis Estrada