drop the dan grades?

[Chidokan]

Our group are trying to get away from the dan grade system and go back to the old way of doing things, ie junior student, senior, master(menkyo), grand master. ( not that any of us will ever hit grand master/ menkyo kaiden!) These are usually awarded after working closely with a teacher over a long period of time and himknowing you reaaly well.
I think it might take out this stupid obsession some people have with gradings. Lets face it, what is say two years of training over a lifetime ( 1st dan to 2nd dan for most clubs?) How many of us can tell the difference between students at that level anyway and would we group them seperately for training?
If you know its going to take, say, ten years to get to senior student, you have already accepted a long term committment to your chosen route. It also might stop the 'Ive got a black belt and am leaving to set up my own dojo as a master' garbage as well.
Anyone else feel the same?

[Tony Peters]

Not to harp on you but it is require on Ebudo that you sign you name on every post...if your name is not is not your user name. I don't practice an art that uses a dan system. I like it that way. I know that everyone is better than me though so it's nothing new for me

[Nicolas Caron]

I don't know about it. I mean, I'm all for dropping a grading system, but if it's only to change it for a different grading system I don't see the point of doing it.

[Tony Peters]

Many Koryu systems use the system that he describes above. It does tend to prevent the so called master of Garbage dodjo's as you are requied permission from the proper authorities to teach.

[Charles Mahan]

Koryu systems use the system that he describes above. It does tend to prevent the so called master of Garbage dodjo's as you are requied permission from the proper authorities to teach.

Not all Koryu use the this system. MJER in particular uses the dan system. I don't think there is a cure to the McDojo syndrome. There will always be McSensei. :rolleyes:

[Tony Peters]

deleted

[Aaron T. Fields]

WHAT... do away with al the pretty colors....ba...I say add more grades.....

[Brian Dunham]

MJER(and MSR) itself does not have dan grades. Various organizations (ZNKR,ZNIR,Jikishinkai,SanShinKai,etc) that promote MJER/MSR et al, issue dan grades, not the tradition itself. If you poke around a bit, you may find some old timers with traditional licenses, as well as dan grades. MJER traditionally had several scrolls issued for different levels. I believe the MJER equivelent to Menkyo Kaiden was called Kongen no Maki. My own late sensei had not only 7th dan, but also Menkyo (MSR).

[Ric Flinn]

The problem I have with using dan gradings is that in many cases a person or group has attached an arbitrary ranking system to an existing style. Someone who supposedly knows what they're doing decides that to have such-and-such rank, you have to demonstrate such-and-such skills. The problem is compounded by the fact that different organizations rarely use the same criteria for gradings, even in the same martial style. You can't just say "MJER uses dan gradings" because it depends on the parent organization you're under.

I don't have any problem with ranking systems, but I don't put a lot of weight on them. Some of the best martial artists I know don't hold any rank. You work with them a while, and it becomes obvious how good they are.

Ric Flinn

[red_fists]

Get rid of them thingy's.

Belts are good to collect Exam Fees, and sell Goods (belts).

Just my 0.2 Yen worth.

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan


Not all Koryu use the this system. MJER in particular uses the dan system. I don't think there is a cure to the McDojo syndrome. There will always be McSensei. :rolleyes:

I beg to differ.

The reason Chidokan mentions his getting away from the dan grade system is the very fact that he does MJER and there "are" no dan grades. These are awarded by the association and not the ryu.

Hyakutake Colin

[supernils]

But as teacher you have to make your students understand that they dont practise to get dans.
I also think that the grade is sortof a reciept of your achievments. Depending of course on the examinationboards impartialility.

[Ben Bartlett]

MJER(and MSR) itself does not have dan grades. Various organizations (ZNKR,ZNIR,Jikishinkai,SanShinKai,etc) that promote MJER/MSR et al, issue dan grades, not the tradition itself.

This is an important distinction, and I think a lot of confusion about MJER/MSR comes from the fact that people don't understand the difference between the ryu, and the associations which promote the ryu. Of course, part of this is the fault of people like me. I constantly refer to the branch of MJER I study as the "Jikinshinkai branch", but that's not actually accurate. The Jikishinkai is the organization that promotes the study of a particular branch of MJER; it's not the branch itself. I've heard other MJER practioners refer to the ZNIR branch, the ZNKR branch, etc. This is because it's convenient, as each organization can generally be associated with a single branch, not because it is accurate. It's important to understand this distinction, however, before making statements about practices within MJER, as it may in fact be a practice within an association which promotes MJER, and not MJER itself. (How's that for confusing? :D )

[Ric Flinn]

Another problem with gradings is that they are not equally available to everyone. In the best case, your instructor is able to award the grading, and every so often the students can test, just as easily as going to practice. In the worst case testings are held maybe once or twice a year, 1000 miles away, and if you miss your shot because you can't get there then you're out of luck.

Maybe I'm just bitter because I fall into the latter case. I think many people have a tendency to see someone who tested for shodan after 6 months as "outranking" someone who remains unranked after several years.

Ric Flinn

[Ron Beaubien]

Here is some food for thought. First off, I don't practice MJER, but I do practice koryu and to be frank, I never really liked the use of kyu and dan as a ranking system.

Brian Dunham wrote:

"MJER(and MSR) itself does not have dan grades. Various organizations (ZNKR,ZNIR,Jikishinkai,SanShinKai,etc) that promote MJER/MSR et al, issue dan grades, not the tradition itself. If you poke around a bit, you may find some old timers with traditional licenses, as well as dan grades. MJER traditionally had several scrolls issued for different levels. I believe the MJER equivelent to Menkyo Kaiden was called Kongen no Maki."

This is really interesting. If the school itself doesn't have any dan grades as Brian says, then the people holding those ranks wouldn't really have any rank in the school then would they? It would leave a lot of people in a sticky situation. (Please don't flame me, I'm just following this line of thought out to its logical conclusion.)

In many koryu schools, rank can only be given by the soke of the tradition, and no one else. Others may allow a menkyo kaiden (or the equivalent) to award some ranks (but not necessarily all of them). Where would this leave MJER?

Tony Peters wrote:

"Though MJER is a koryu it is practiced in a more Gendai manner..."

I would agree that to me MJER does look much more like a gendai school to me after seeing it taught so many times and talking to people who practice it.

and: "...Much the same as Aikido as compared to say Takeuchi Ryu jujutsu. The Dan grading system is most definatly post Meiji(sp) in that it was a creation of Kano."

Here is something else to consider. I believe that the Bichuden line of Takenouchi-ryu (as well as some other koryu schools such as Tatsumi-ryu) issues dan grades along side of their traditional ranking systems. This begs the question: If both are offered by some schools, then might they not represent different things? Hmmm...

We also know, that according to Earl Hartman that the MJER curriculum was at one time apparently much larger than it is today (See the "MJER Curriculum" thread). I am assuming that in MJER of old, the awarding of rank meant that the student had learned and was able to perform the techniques required for each level. Would that not rule out the use of most of the earlier ranks that were awarded?

The whole idea of changing from dan ranks to classical ones seems very problematic.

My take on the situation would be to issue dan grades if that is what you have been given (and of course, have been given permission to issue). It wouldn't seem right to change and start giving out classical ranks if you had never been given them yourself, not to mention had never been given authority to do so.

Best,

Ron Beaubien

Chidokan,

You posted:

"Our group are trying to get away from the dan grade system and go back to the old way of doing things, ie junior student, senior, master(menkyo), grand master. ( not that any of us will ever hit grand master/ menkyo kaiden!)"

I'm pretty much with Ron here. After an short lived and unsuccessful foray into issuing dan rankings alongside classical teaching licenses the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai abolished them leaving in place only the Kirigami Shoden thru Menkyo Kaiden licensing system. In our ryuha these licenses are unrelated to execution standards and are only related to teaching ability. Therefore it is possible within our ryuha that the most technically impressive individual at executing technique would have no teaching license and not be permitted to have his own dojo. This is as it should be. Dojo's are places of learning. When the delineation between these two talents is blurred the result is often less than satisfactory. Obviously the ideal situation includes these two skills existing together symbiotically but reality can dictate otherwise. Some great martial artists just can't teach. In our ryuha the issuing of dan ranks muddied the waters. Dan ranks that were only intended to represent technically ability were suddenly imbued with teaching authority never intended. As a result they were quickly abolished.

Soon after the abolishing of dan ranks Takamura Sensei was confronted by one shocked inquirer concerning this action. Takamura finally got thru to him by asking "Who would you rather learn boxing from, a champ like Muhammad Ali or the guy who taught him, Angelo Dundee? That explanation works for me.

Another thing, cut the "Master / Grandmaster crap. There are only sensei, sempai, and kohai. Everything else, especially the word "master" is affectation....period.

Toby Threadgill / Soryushin Dojo

[Ian Remi]

When I was a teenaged karateka, the diligent study and practice of the curriculum for rank progression was important to me. Advancing in grades would allow me to learn more from my sensei and gave me a sense of accomplishment. It provided well-defined goals to work towards. At that time in my life, I know that was a positive structure for me to have.

Over a decade later, having now taken up the study of kendo, grading systems are furthest from my mind. I am purely motivated by the simple practice of kendo, in improving what I can do and how I do it. It is one of the reasons that kendo drew me in to begin with. It seems the grading system is not central to the study of the art. One aspect may be that no outwards display of rank is shown, relying more on the individual kenshi's behavior and skill to determine structure and respect. I must say I am still very new to kendo, my impressions may change as the months and years go by, but here I am disclosing my thoughts on the subject today. My impressions of kendo are also highly influenced by the club I study at, so I guess mileage may vary for others.

I have developed this type of mindset as I've grown older. I don't think I am expressing myself as well as I would like. However, my philosophy and approach on martial arts now (kendo) mirrors that of the way I deal with my life, environment and people around me. Kendo just seemed like a natural progression, and a symbiotic relationship of sorts. I still find it hard to express and quantify reasons for taking up kendo. I just know that I enjoy it.

All this to make the point that the kyu/dan grading systems in place will vary from people to people, from countless dojos and clubs, and especially over time. At this point in my life, I don’t need the proverbial ‘carrot dangling on a stick in front of my nose’ to encourage me to continue. That determination comes from within me, a desire to learn. Be it with a rainbow smorgasbord of cotton belts and stripes, certificates, or simple respect for abilities, it wouldn’t make much difference to me. I would however, lean towards the latter end of the scale.

I’ve written over my quota for the day.

Cheers,

Russell kohai.

[Charles Mahan]

Brian Dunham wrote:

MJER(and MSR) itself does not have dan grades. Various organizations (ZNKR,ZNIR,Jikishinkai,SanShinKai,etc) that promote MJER/MSR et al, issue dan grades, not the tradition itself.

This is a relative thing really. Depends on your point of view.

First a disclaimer, I'm only doing this to explain my slip earlier, please hold the flames, everyone knows there is disagreement on this.

I should have been more specific on this forum as there is disagreement here on the following statements. It is my understanding that Ikeda-soke is the Ryu. What he says is sooth. This is not a statement of fact, merely a statement of my personal understanding and belief. I make this statement strictly as an explanation for why I sometimes slip and refer to the MJER when I mean more specifically the MJER Seitokai. Thus when I said that the ryu uses the Dan ranking system, I should have referred to the Seitokai. My apologies for the confusion.

I will endeavor in the future to refer to the MJER Seitokai. This BTW is the name of the branch which participates in the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei(ZNIR) for those of you who do not recognize the term. I am ranked through the Seitokai, but not through the ZNIR and so I will continue my custom of referring to the Seitokai.

By the same token that I was incorrect to generalize about the entire Ryu, I take exception to the following post:

Ron Beaubien quoting and discussing Tony Peters post:


Tony Peters wrote: "Though MJER is a koryu it is practiced in a more Gendai manner..."
I would agree that to me MJER does look much more like a gendai school to me after seeing it taught so many times and talking to people who practice it.


Both writers make fairly broad generalizations, which somehow seem to dismiss the 450 odd years of history on which the ryu and its traditions stand. Ray-sensei, the other American ZNIR/Seitokai sensei, and the Japanese sensei I have had the honor and priviledge to train under all instruct in very traditional, and I might add sometimes inscrutably Japanese :), ways. I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't think that you can say that because a ryu adopts a Dan ranking system, it is suddenly being practiced in a Gendai way, whatever that means. Labeling MJER as somehow Gendai-ish seems silly and non-productive.

Mr. Threadgill writes:

Another thing, cut the "Master / Grandmaster crap. There are only sensei, sempai, and kohai. Everything else, especially the word "master" is affectation....period.
Hogwash. There are leaders of Koryu. Not all ryu have them, but they are a very well recognized and well documented phenomenon.


Wee... I'm all over the thread tonight :)


Peter A. Cech writes:


...Belts are good to collect Exam Fees...

Agreed, organizationally speaking they are an excellent way to collect funds.


Ahh well, I figure I've made an ass out of myself enough for one night. Putting on my Asbestos PJs.

[pgsmith]

Howdy Charles!
Just out of curiosity asbestos man, which koryu uses the terms master and grandmaster? :) I thought that was a Korean type of thing, not Japanese. Could be wrong though, and I frequently am!

Cheers,

Charles,

you said in response to my comments concerning the words "master" and "grandmaster":

"Hogwash. There are leaders of Koryu. Not all ryu have them, but they are a very well recognized and well documented phenomenon."


Huh? You must have missed my point. I am not denying the existence of senior level instructors outside Japan. ( Heck, I guess I'm one nowadays.) I just believe the use of the word "master" or "grandmaster" to be grossly inappropriate and frankly...arrogant. I bet my friend John Ray up in Denton will agree with me. Ask him. In a pinch I'll accept the use of the word "shihan" in a formal environment or in an official written correspondence. In common speech however.....Never.

Although I received a Menkyo Kaiden from Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu jujutsu, and now endeavor to adequately represent this tradition, to even imagine myself more than a sensei just sticks in my throat. Sorry but even the use of the word "sensei" spoken by myself in reference to myself would make me a pariah and an ass.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill

[T. ALVAREZ]

Toby,

I like what Takamura Sensei said about masters.
"Anybody who goes by the title of master or calls himself one isn't"!

Although, I still like the title that James bestowed upon me.
"Intergalactic Grand master of Mass Proportions".

In any case. You are still the SPOK-E in my book!:)

Couldn't resist.

BIG TONY

[Neil Yamamoto]

Toby being arrogant is never a concern to me. I have a tape where he clearly refers to himself as "Threadgill the spazz."

I prefer to cherish this line and will always think of Toby in this way. Except for when he wears his Lauren Ashley hakama.

I tend to agree with Toby, get rid of dan ranks. That way I can just be a cockroach in the corner of the dojo again.

[MarkF]

You can do away with it, it doesn't change anything. Masters, grandmasters, those who do refer to themselves as sensei, will still tarnish the business. Someone will take the lead and all will follow to the fountain.

It didn't take a dan-i system to make "soke" a household word to those who want it, it was another system much older than the ryu who began with it (Iemoto). It didn't even have meaning within budo but today it does. Who gets the blame for that? Kano didn't "invent" a kyu/dan system, he came up with a step to mark one's training. Who would have thought that entire committees when it began to be abused could not replace it with something better? Perhaps if judo remained a Temple ryu, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, but oh well, for some reason, it spread far and wide. Ya think it has something to do with that? Oh, yes, I forgot, the barn dojo with two students or garage dojo with six. It seems that is the way to go, no one could possibly think anyone anyone is taken the advantage of position there. No siree.

It isn't the fault of any system, it is people. Throw out all "systems" of them if you throw out one. Then we all can "be coakroaches in the corner of the dojo" but then would there be any dojo?

No one is holding anyone back, throw away your belts, youre MKs and find a teacher so willing and voila!, you have yourself a new system (Let's see, now how do we separate the senpai from the kohai?) Well, no matter as there will be no senpai or kohai, but someone will come up with another system (as did Kano, after all, it was only meant to distinguish the mudan from the yudan) for that, too. So long as you separate people into different groups there will follow those who wish to make it more obvious. Worse things have been done under the caste system which is really what is being discussed.

Funny thing is, though, the man who started this argument more than a century ago never held a dan-i grade,just traditional ones, but leave it to us humans, someone found a way and called him "shihan." It is the only known grade given to him while living, yet most of you are ready to reap the "blame" harvest.

And could someone point me to a reliable source which says Jigoro Kano also came up with this...this, kyu thing y'all make longer and split into multi-shades of different colors?

Also, what's this I hear about reverse-white belt syndrome? When I began reading these bulletin boards in 1999, I knew no one who advertised that they don't use dogi or obi, then I knew one, but that was on a personal level, not something shared with the public, but whattayano, now everyone wants to be a no-belt. Isn't that just the least bit hypocritical?

Strange brew, this "thing of ours."

Mark

[Rogier]

Soon after the abolishing of dan ranks Takamura Sensei was confronted by one shocked inquirer concerning this action. Takamura finally got thru to him by asking "Who would you rather learn boxing from, a champ like Muhammad Ali or the guy who taught him, Angelo Dundee? That explanation works for me.

forgive me for being ignorant, but can you explain it to me cause I just don't seem to understand how he got through to him by asking that question and how it refers to Dan rankings?

[Charles Mahan]

Huh? You must have missed my point. I am not denying the existence of senior level instructors outside Japan. ( Heck, I guess I'm one nowadays.) I just believe the use of the word "master" or "grandmaster" to be grossly inappropriate and frankly...arrogant. I bet my friend John Ray up in Denton will agree with me. Ask him. In a pinch I'll accept the use of the word "shihan" in a formal environment or in an official written correspondence. In common speech however.....Never.


Ahh... You are correct sir, I did miss the point completely(A good thing when dodging arrows, but totally inappropriate, pretty much the rest of the time). My complete bad.

Agreed, self referential "Masters" get the respect they deserve from the budo community :D. And self referential Grand Masters, well ... 'nough said really. :rolleyes

It was not clear enough in your post for my sleep deprived mind to have understood that you were referring to the self declared "grandmaster"s. My apologies for the confusion.




Just out of curiosity asbestos man, which koryu uses the terms master and grandmaster? I thought that was a Korean type of thing, not Japanese. Could be wrong though, and I frequently am!


I was misinterpreting the use of "Masters" and "Grandmasters" as a translation of Soke and such. My apologies for the confusion.

[Tony Peters]

deleted

Hello Roger.

You asked:

"forgive me for being ignorant, but can you explain it to me cause I just don't seem to understand how he got through to him by asking that question and how it refers to Dan rankings?"

In reference to this:

Soon after the abolishing of dan ranks Takamura Sensei was confronted by one shocked inquirer concerning this action. Takamura finally got thru to him by asking "Who would you rather learn boxing from, a champ like Muhammad Ali or the guy who taught him, Angelo Dundee? That explanation works for me.

_______________


Actually I think the boxing analogy is great due to the importance of rankings in that sport. The point Takamura Sensei was trying to make is that dan ranks in this particular ryuha, as a reflection of technical skills, were not intended to necessarily reflect any teaching skills. The gentleman he was conferring with was also a boxer so he used the point that Muhammad Ali's boxing skills did not necessarily make him the expert on boxing that he was thought to be especially when compared to an unranked boxing genius like Angelo Dundee.

Similarly, years ago I got dragged to a seminar by a very famous tournament karate champion. He was impressive to watch moving around and everything but there was nothing behind all that natural talent. It was all fluff. If you couldn't already perform his signature technique the seminar was just a waste of time. This guy couldn't have taught an eskimo to make ice cubes.

Toby Threadgill

[Charles Mahan]

Tony Peters writes:

OK you seam to have completely missed my point...that or you nave never been taught a Koryu that uses the traditional teaching system. Either way it's not a critcism. Having practiced, at least for a short time, 2 seperate Koryu arts, in addition to MJER, before settling on one that fit my needs. MJER it not taught in a tradional manner it is taught to the masses in a very gendai like maner. Very little one on one teaching/learning from the sensei. Please don't confuse a serious, gruff but well intentioned instructor (no matter the nationality) for a martial art taught in the tradional koryu manner. I have trained Iai in a traditional manner but it wasn't MJER. Which is too bad because I really like the MJER syllibus.

You say that I have completely missed the point. I seem to be doing that a lot lately. :confused:

Please explain to me what "the traditional teaching system" for a Koryu is like. In particular I am interested in "the traditional teaching system" for MJER, since traditions from one ryu to another can be very different.

"Very little one on one teaching/learning from a sensei"? This hasn't been my experience at all. Please elaborate.

[Earl Hartman]

One thing to remember in this whole discussion is that a traditional ryu is, essentially, a sort of corporate organization, and, as such, must have a structure. This requires that people be ranked so that their place within the organization is clear. Without this, it will be impossible to pass on the tradition in a coherent way. Large, modern bureaucratic organizations that have succeeded the traditional ryu, such as the ZNKR, have the same problem. They simply use a modern ranking system instead of the traditional one. This was an inevitable result of the program of the Japanese government, through the Butokukai, to standardize the teaching of budo throughout the country.

Of course rankings can be abused, bogus ranks can be given out, judges at a rank test can just go through he motions, palms can be greased, etc, etc. To take an example from our own society, just look at the "grade inflaton" scandals in higher education and all of the idiots who have Harvard MBAs. So some of the people who are "ranked" may not deserve it. But be honest: when you go in for surgery, aren't you gonna be damn sure that your surgeon has his sheepskin up on the wall? Why should this be any different for budo?

I do not know what the intermediary licenses in MJER may be. The Kongen no Maki is the highest level certificate in MJER, and AFAIK it confers upon the holder the right to pass on the tradition. For example, Iwata Norikazu S. is generally considered to be one of the leading experts on MJER, and he has two Kongen no Maki from two of Oe S.'s direct students. However, he is not, AFAIK, considered to be the inheritor of the school, at least by those who follow in the line supported by the ZNIR. However, no one can deny his credentials. The situation was the same with my teacher, who was also a direct student of Oe S. He received the Kongen no Maki from Oe S. and went on to lead the iai department in the ZNKR. His senior deshi, Noda Toru S., received the Kongen no Maki from him and still teaches in Shikoku. So, you have the situation within the ryu itself, where there are a number of branches established by legitimate Kongen no Maki holders, and then you have the issue of which of these branches are given the stamp of approval by one of many third party organizations: the ZNIR, the ZNKR, or the Butokukai, etc. These are two separate issues, though.

People need to be aware of the "double layer" approach the Japanese use. For example, I learn kyudo from Urakami Hiroko Sensei, a Hanshi 9th dan of the All Nippon Kyudo Federation. This rank is awarded by the ANKF, which is recognized by the Mombusho, a ministry of the Japanese government. The ANKF is thus a quasi-governmental organization, supported by Japanese taxpayers, whose job is to promote kyudo throughout the nation. Urakami Sensei is a high-ranking member of this organization and sits on many of its important committees and acts as a judge at rank tests and a teacher at seminars.

However, at the same time, in her private dojo, she teaches kyudo according to the practices of her traditional style, the Urakami line of the Okayama Heki To Ryu (also known as the Heki Ryu Insai-ha). There are certain technical and ceremonial differences between this style and the modern standardized style established by the ANKF. Within her own private organization, the Urakami Domonkai, she still awards traditonal licenses. It is the same for many traditional styles that have one foot in the modern world and one foot in the traditional world.

For a member of a traditional style that does not look to any outside organization for approval this is perhaps irrelevant, but that's how things work in Japan.

[Brian Dunham]

I have to take exception as well to Tony's comment alledging that MJER is taught to the masses and not one on one. I was taught (MSR, but I consider it to be part of the MJER/MSR family,each with a myriad of lineages/branches) one on one, very directly from teacher to student. There are occasional group seminars, which serve other purposes, but not as a substitute for direct transmission. There are valid reasons for considering MJER/MSR a "gendai" art, but this isn't one of them. For us westerners that feel compelled to categorize everything, I think a good term, rather than "gendai", is koryu budo. Clearly not fitting into strict definitions of bujutsu, but definitely koryu. However,I think "gendai budo" is an appropriate term for Iaido as taught in standardized forms like ZNKR Seitei Iai.

Regards,
Brian Dunham

[Rennis]

Both writers make fairly broad generalizations, which somehow seem to dismiss the 450 odd years of history on which the ryu and its traditions stand. Ray-sensei, the other American ZNIR/Seitokai sensei, and the Japanese sensei I have had the honor and priviledge to train under all instruct in very traditional, and I might add sometimes inscrutably Japanese , ways. I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't think that you can say that because a ryu adopts a Dan ranking system, it is suddenly being practiced in a Gendai way, whatever that means. Labeling MJER as somehow Gendai-ish seems silly and non-productive.

I don't think Ron was saying that because MJER/MSR use the dan system that they are more akin to gendai arts. I think he was refering more to how they are currently transmitted. I have talked with Ron on this topic several times and I basically agree with him. While history is very important in making a koryu art "koryu", there are a few other things that many see as important in being a "koryu" and the method of transmission is one of them. In general (of course groups vary), MJER, as it is taught in Japan, is taught more in the manner of a gendai art than a koryu one. To be honest, I suspect MJER/MSR in the West are probably a little closer to the koryu style of teaching (in terms of student teacher relationships) simply because there aren't a million teachers and a million more students in every dojo. The lower numbers mean it is more one on one with a very clearly defined "teacher". In the majority of groups I have seen and trained with in Japan it is alot less clear, and this is one of the major reasons it drifts from the "koryu" to "gendai" "model" so to speak.

To offer but one example from my own training experience. There was a period early on in my time in Japan where I was doing both MSR and Hoki ryu. In Hoki ryu the situation was very clear and very "old school". There was only one sensei, while his shihandai taught some stuff, sensei was clearly *the* teacher and the final word in everything. There were very few students and everyone got individual attention. In the MSR group I was training with there where about 5 different sensei and the was no clear "top" teacher. Everyone taught one on one obviously, but they would often come and correct someone else's correction. There was not clear "master model" for any of the kata and the training was in no way different from how they trained in and taught the seitei iai, seitei jo, or kendo. This differed radically from my Hoki ryu sensei, who is also a teacher of karate. The karate training was done in the standard "gendai" fashion (for lack of a better term), but the Hoki ryu training was very very different.

While it obviously varies from group to group, in general all the MJER/MSR training I have seen or taken part in leans more towards the newer "renmei" approach to teaching. The huge mess the lineage is in in regards to splinter groups and 5 or more claiming to be soke doesn't help either and it has reached a point where almost every dojo is its own little branch with no clear hierarchy in the ryu overall. I dare say in some cases (again not all) MJER/MSR has become little more that a curriculum of kata for ZNKR, ZNIR practitioners. It is for that reason many people say (myself included) that while MJER/MSR are historically koryu arts, they are currently done in a more gendai fashion. The huge number of students the various MJER/MSR groups have basically make it impossible to continue in a "koryu" fashion. Again, I think groups in the West may actually be lucky in that one regard because most of them haven't grown to such huge sizes, so the training in the individual dojo may be a bit closer towards the older method of teaching. This is in no way a slight against MJER/MSR, but just a comment on the reality of how popular the systems are and how they had to adapt to deal with it.

Best Regards,
Rennis Buchner

[Charles Mahan]

[QUOTE] To be honest, I suspect MJER/MSR in the West are probably a little closer to the koryu style of teaching (in terms of student teacher relationships) simply because there aren't a million teachers and a million more students in every dojo. The lower numbers mean it is more one on one with a very clearly defined "teacher". [\QUOTE]

Our Dojo has one instructor, John Ray. John trained at the Yamashita Dojo in Chiba while in Japan and now trains under Tanida-sensei. Yamashita sensei was the lead instructor at the Chiba dojo until back trouble forced him to stop working out. At that time the senior student, Kogushi Osaumu took over the day to day instruction under the watchful eye of Yamasihta-sensei. There was but one sensei in the dojo. As for millions of students, as I understand it class size in the Yamashita dojo certainly never approached a million ;). I believe something closer to 10 to 30 was closer to the truth. This as I understood it was the norm for the dojo's in the Chiba group. That's pretty much the limit of my understanding of how things go on over there, and is not necessarily a reflection of reality, just my understanding of it.

Your arguement seems to be that if there are a lot of practitioners of the Ryu, then it must be Gendai. I don't think the Tosa would have approved.

[QUOTE]
In the MSR group I was training with there where about 5 different sensei and the was no clear "top" teacher. Everyone taught one on one obviously, but they would often come and correct someone else's correction.
[\QUOTE]

This sounds like the kind of thing that goes on at seminars not at a traditional dojo.

I think what's going on here is another example of too much generalization. MJER is too fractious for generalized statements to be of much use when trying to understand the entire ryu. We seem to have had two very different experiences. Out of curiousity were you seeing ZNKR, ZNIR, or some other form of MJER?

I think it might be safer to state something to the affect that, MJER as practiced under the ZNxR is more gendai, while ZNyR is more traditional.
It isn't fair to characterize the entire Ryu as gendai or traditional as there is obviously a great deal of variation. Apparently there are a lot of people who have had experience with the more gendai(whatever that really means) type of MJER. I can personally vouch for the existence of a much more traditional side to the Ryu as well. Recently Ray-sensei was invited to Japan to work out with Ikeda-soke so that Ikeda-soke could evaluate the level of Iai being taught at the only Seitokai dojo within the US, and I believe the only Seitokai dojo outside of Japan.

Do I deny the power struggles within the Ryu? Heck no. I can here those power struggles way the heck over here in Denton, Tx. Do I think that these power struggles somehow detract from the Ryu's status as a Koryu? No not at all. This kind of political infighting is very traditionally Japanese and comes with the territory.


[QUOTE]
I dare say in some cases (again not all) MJER/MSR has become little more that a curriculum of kata for ZNKR, ZNIR practitioners.
[\QUOTE]

I think this would come as quite a shock to the ZNIR practitioners who belong to the Mugai, Hoki, and the other big ryu whose name eludes me at the moment. I suspect they are under the impression that the only MJER and MSR they do on a regular basis are the two techniques contained within the Toho set. Admittedly the ZNIR membership is dominated by the MJER group, but that's just numbers. There are more people doing MJER than there are people doing the other ryu which make up the ZNIR.

Moral of the story. Try not to make generalizations about MJER or any other koryu for that matter. Perhaps especially MJER because there are so many people practicing it that there is bound to be a wide range of experiences to be had.


Eek out of time. I gotta get home. Hmmm... Turning this post loose with little to no editing...Oh well. Try not to kill me too much if I messed up somewhere.

[hyaku]

I think another problem lies in disatisfaction at the way the associations farming out the dan grades sometimes treat their membership.

As for the ZNKR I have a number of times witnessed people on iaido grading panels that do not do Iaido. They are considered fit to issue grades because they have a high grade in Kendo. Also I see this in the ZNIR where people of one particular ryu that is member of the association judge other Ryu. This may be acceptable for beginners but as the people become more experienced in a particular field they expect to judged as such.

Also the fact that the Dan-I system is so accepted in the West. Anyone trying to rent dojo/training space or being considered to teach in adult education is automaticaly asked "Do you have a black belt?." Problems of getting Insurance particularly when swords are being used and assuring the owners that they will not be liable seems to be belayed by showing a Dan Grade Certificate. This expression has become the norm and is far too readily used.

Also the new students come into the dojo with the misunderstanding that black belts are involved.

I think there has to be a certain amount of re-education about this in the West not only to practitioners but to the general public.

Its not so much ourselves being satisfied with our qualification or level but the fact that we have to satisfiy others.

I don't have to satisfy anyone now. So am both relaxed and pleased in not identifying myself by either Dan-I or Shogo to anyone unless necessary. I see no point in doing so unless it a particular introduction or pertains to a thread or post. So my heart goes out to those that feel they must do so.

Hyakutake Colin

[Tony Peters]

deleted

[dbeaird]

Considering I've only begun training in one martial art, my opinion isn't worth much on this subject, but...


It seems to me that some people are making out the difference between Koryu and Gendai arts as simply a matter of how many people are in the dojo at the same time. My understanding of what consitutes the difference is merely the age of the school and instruction methods themselves are purely an internal matter of concern.

I didn't have to sit on the doorstep for eighteen months silently begging my teacher to accept me as a student, and haven't been asked to spit shine the floor to show humility (probably for the best since I managed to sprain my ankle picking up a paper cup in front of the Dojo a while back). Truth be told, I have never for a moment bothered with wondering if I was learning properly or improperly. I have a teacher who does all that for me, and an association who watches over him.

I have been exposed to several different instructors in my school and seemingly different instruction methods. I have learned that it's impossible to make sweeping generalizations about anything in Martial Arts.

What this essentially boils down to is a small game of one-upmanship between schools...mine is more traditional than yours, or your school doesn't teach in the OLD way. Heck, my Dojo doesn't have a phone, so we're definitely teaching in a more traditional setting than any gendai, new-fangled dojo that has one, right?

We're all learning how to do something that is absolutely and totally useless in terms other than our own physical and mental health and the preservation of history. Certainly we can choose schools that are best fitted to our own tastes and goals, but one of the ideas that made me choose this is to preserve something from history that will absolutely cease to exist, never to be regained, when the last person stops practicing. The days of the guys from one school beating on the guys of the other school to prove superiority are over.

[Tony Peters]

I have never tried to say that MJER wasn't a Koryu art. Rather that because of it's expansion it is practiced in a more Gendai manner. Koryu transmission, as I understand it, demands one on one training with the sensei, amoung other things. My experieance with MJER (as well as that of those I know) is that it is not the same as what I have experienced in another Koryu art. That said I'm done with this discussion those with firm beliefs right or wrong are not going to have them changed.
Peace

[Dan Harden]

Deleted sorry

[Ben Bartlett]

Well, as I have not been to Japan to study a koryu, I cannot comment on how my training compares to that of a koryu art. I do want to point out, however, that because so many people study MJER, and there are so many branches and organizations with different agenda (some study it as an adjunct to kendo, some study it by itself, etc.), it's entirely possible that one person to say that he has been to dojo and seen people studying in a gendai manner, and for another person to say, "At my dojo, we study in a koryu manner", and that both could be correct. Because it's so large, it's hard to say that absolutely no where is it studied in a koryu manner. On the other hand, it sounds like definitely some places it's studied in a more gendai manner. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if someone says, "My dojo still does things koryu style!", you shouldn't just dismiss that, because it could well be true. But given it's popularity, the I'm sure the opposite is true as well. Hope that makes at least a little bit of sense. :)

As for sliding around on the knees for 10 years, can I just point out that the shoden waza are just a part of the curriculum? Whatever you may think of MJER, it's more than just sliding around the floor on your knees. Now can someone please start a thread about something other than MJER for a change? I don't know about you folks, but I'm tired of seeing the same arguments over and over again. I seriously envy those of you who are studying non-controversial koryu, it must be nice not having people constantly arguing about your art. How did we get to this from a poll on whether or not you'd keep dan grades, anyway? Alright, that's enough fuming from me.

[charlesl]

Dan Beaird wrote:
It seems to me that some people are making out the difference between Koryu and Gendai arts as simply a matter of how many people are in the dojo at the same time. My understanding of what consitutes the difference is merely the age of the school and instruction methods themselves are purely an internal matter of concern.


The problem likely stems from each dojo being different from every other dojo. I've trained in 3 different aikido dojo, a judo dojo, and a karate dojo. In all of them, the teacher got up, did a techniqe on somebody, then had us try doing the technique with a partner.

In the koryu art I practice, the teacher comes over, shows me how it's done, tells me what I'm doing wrong, has me try it on him, tries it on me, basically teaches it directly to me, and periodically checks that I haven't devolved the technique into something else.

The tendency in thinking for me is the following: The gendai dojo I trained did things like that, the koryu place I train does things like this, therefore all gendai dojo must do things like that, and and all koryu dojo must do things like this. It nice, simple, easy, and while possibly not wrong, at least fairly unlikely.

At this point I'd like to share a little poem about this other dude's little red wheelbarrel, and draw some metaphors about that guys poem being poetry 'cause he was famous and if I wrote it it'd still be junk, but I can't remember the poem so should stop now and quit being bitter.

Sorry to babble, I'm honestly not drunk or on crack, I just forget what the point was.

-Charles

[Chidokan]

___________________________________________________________________
For example, Iwata Norikazu S. is generally considered to be one of the leading experts on MJER, and he has two Kongen no Maki from two of Oe S.'s direct students. However, he is not, AFAIK, considered to be the inheritor of the school, at least by those who follow in the line supported by the ZNIR. However, no one can deny his credentials.
____________________________________________________________________
True. I am off to train with Iwata s. for a week or so in May. Although he is well qualified to 'take the reins' as it were, he recognises a guy who lives in Kochi as his 'head of school'. We are going to take some time out to visit him, apparently this dojo is very 'traditional' in its training practises, so I may be able to offer some insights on that when I return...

Time to terminate this one, I think I've caused enough trouble...
Think I will leave the next thread to the people who answered as 40th dans....:laugh:

Tim

[Tony Peters]

especially since Charles did a good job of making my point but I recently reread Diane Skoss's "Koryu Bujutsu" the very first article called "The Koryu Bujutsu Experience" written by Hunter B. Armstrong explains better than anything that I have ever read or heard the difference between Koryu and Gendai. Besides that the book is a great informative read. That I highly recomend purchasing.

[MarkF]

Going back to the topic post, instead of getting rid of the Dan-I system because of perceived problems with it, why not rid ourselves of any and all systems which recognize training levels. I don't see either as being all that different, as there will always be some kind of notation of who has been training the longest, or the one who knows the style best. Some of the more obvious clowns in budo claim the old style licenses, so would that be OK, too?

There are koryu/gendai (there is that thing again, the date abolute which makes one koryu and the other gendai) who used the Dan-I system but found it didn't work for them, so they returned to the usual mokuroku system of awards. People have not advance as quickly, but they do advance.

Then there are those, which are practiced as a Koryu, but have moved UP to the Dan-I system as the number of members of the style grew until the scrolls took too much time, but the dan training levels were about equal to what the older system was. No two year shodan nor two year menjo.
******

So dump the Dan-I system as its original reasons for its use has gone by the wayside, and in truth, that happened due to ego. So you get rid of all recognition of beginners and masters and anything in between. I have, well, a lot which says another manner of the same thing would take its place in less than a year, probably within a few months.

And so every one is straight on who and what, the Dan-I system is just that. It was only to separate the beginners, no matter how much time in one has, from those who have begun the journey to higher levels of mastery. There was no kyu graded students in the original system, no kyu, just mudan and yudan.

In fact, the founder, when he begun classes, made all his beginners shodan on the certificate/scroll, etc., and etcetera. To be even more realistic about it, the equivelant of shihan grade, menkyo kaiden, in the Dan-I system is at about 8-dan in a 10-dan grading system. I have noted some more qualified to say this, are well-known in the koryu kobudo and taijutsu arts.

Let the bozos be bozos. Only you and a teacher/instructor know the truth so what does it matter? I don't have a clue about the sword arts, so this is only a comment on the area I do know well since it did come up.

If the training is good, and differences noted, let all the other stuff go by, or more properly, allow it, as no one will get anything from it in the true, long run.

This subject being broached in the Sword Forum is surprising, but is certainly relevent, and it will be every time these types of threads disappear into the archives and new members come aboard.

Deal with it.

Mark

[Charles Mahan]

In fact, the founder, when he begun classes, made all his beginners shodan on the certificate/scroll, etc., and etcetera.


Out of curiosity. Which founder would that be? Founder of what?

I still don't see that the Dan ranking system is all that bad. If some people take Dan ranks too seriously, then that is a character flaw in that person, not in the grading system.

I suspect that the various dan ranks also give the leader of a style more control over when the students in far flung dojos begin learning which parts of the system. Soke says: Students shouldn't learn kumi-tachi until 6th dan. That's much easier than trying to say that students should learn kumi-tachi until they've been training for many years and they've pretty much mastered the kihon, and their kesa cuts are at a certain level, etc. etc. ad naseum. I believe it has already been noted that the Dan system came about specifically to handle this kind of scenario. In this respect, it helps to preserve the ryu, by placing transferring some of the control back into the hands of the leadership, thus helping to preserve the cohesion of the style.

Just a random thought. Feel free to tear it down, as I have not spent much time thinking it through yet. Kinda in a hurry at the moment.

[Ben Bartlett]

Hmm, that's an interesting point, Charles. Actually, I could see how the dan system would be useful for a larger organization. For instance, if you had a standardized set of skills that had to be mastered before a certain grade was reached, then if a student from one dojo walked into another dojo, the instructor of the second dojo would know about where the student was skillwise. Of course, some organizations do a better job with this than others. ;)

[Rogier]

I think that Mark is referring to Kano the founder of Judo...

[pgsmith]

Gotta throw my opinion out, just don't throw it back too hard! :p Saying that we should band together and get rid of the Dan-I grading system because there are charlatans who have corrupted it to make money is, how to say this delicately, totally ridiculous! That is tantamount to saying that we should do away with college degrees because there are charlatans who have corrupted them to make money. It's exactly the same thing folks. In any endeavour there will be people that want to take advantage of the system for their own ends. It is absolutely impossible to create any grading system of which someone couldn't take advantage. The only thing to do is to go on and train, and ignore those that just want to take advantage of the system the same way we ignore those that got their degree by mail order. What goes around comes around, and in the end we are not training for truth and justice for all, we are just training for ourselves. You do what your sensei tells you, and you grade in whatever system you train in. If the system bothers you then quit and go find another system, don't just complain about it. So get out there and train, and ignore the idiots.

Cheers,

[Aozora]

I think we should leave the dan rankings to those who have the power to change it. In response to the original post, I think if you want to change it, change it. To me, there's no inherent good or evil that come of the ranking system, only what each school and individual chooses to do with it. If it's a measure of where you stand in the school and an indicator of progress (or lack thereof) great. If it's to lord over other people and puff up your ego, not so great.

Personally, I'm not in any position to change anything about Tomiki Aikido, Kodokan Judo, SMR jodo or MJER iaido. I think most of the people here are in the same boat.

:beer:

--Neil

[Stuart D]

I don't see any real problem with the dan rankings. It's cool for the folks who want it and those who don't care about rank can ignore it, y'know? I practice kendo because it's so much fun. I don't aspire to be a Supreme Grandmaster or anything, I just try to improve. Since improvement basically equates to getting a higher rank, okay! My goal is to become better, not achieve a higher rank.

There's not much point in getting rid of the dans. I don't think it would eliminate the McSensei(I believe that was the term) because those people would just call themselves whatever they pleased, make up a ranking system and sell ranks to some unknowing victims. On the other hand, one reason to keep it is to drive the people with less motivation than the hardcore practitioners. Also, it's a nice feeling when my Sensei tells me that I'm ready to test again. I know that I've improved in his eyes and that I'm actually making progress. Besides, menjo are nice to look at.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on dans. They aren't all that bad so why throw them out?

-Stuart Davis

[Usagi]

Originally posted by dbeaird
Considering I've only begun training in one martial art, my opinion isn't worth much on this subject, but...



All sincere opinions are worth. :)


Originally posted by dbeaird

Truth be told, I have never for a moment bothered with wondering if I was learning properly or improperly. I have a teacher who does all that for me, and an association who watches over him.



I am not sure if i got it right...

You don't care about what and how you learn?

In my understanding of what you wrote(not necessarily correct)you kind of hand out the responsability for your progress to your sensei.

"He knows what he is doing..." or "if he didn't knew the organizations wouldn't allow him to teach..." are dangerous ideas.

There are plenty of cases of autorized yudansha of respected organization involved in incidents of abuse, agression...

How do you know if a organization is really serious?

How do you know if your sensei really knows what he is doing?

I personally think we should pay close atenttion to everything our sensei tell us to do and does himself, not to complain or "test" him, but to pratice our zanshin.

IMHO it is the studant that learns, not the teacher that teaches.

That's why a good studant can learn from a poor teacher, but a fantastic teacher cannot input knowledge to a lazy studant.

And that's why i think the studant should be very concerned about who is his teacher and what (and how) he teaches.

Ranking and afilliation shouldn't be taken for garanties.
(if i misunderstanded you, accept my apologizes)



Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
The point Takamura Sensei was trying to make is that dan ranks in this particular ryuha, as a reflection of technical skills, were not intended to necessarily reflect any teaching skills.

I've experienced that in my college.

I have a physyology teacher who's a MD.

Lots of information and pratical experience; no ability to teach.

(sorry for my poor english)