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karakokoro
15th February 2002, 22:38
if you are training and you see your teacher give rank to someone you know who is doing hardcore drugs and has admitted to selling in the past what would you do? do you tell the teacher? leave the school? advice is needed. -K Doe

mrmonkey
16th February 2002, 00:08
It is common for people with addictions to sell drugs as well, when they are down on their luck.
Is the person in question in rehab now?

karakokoro
16th February 2002, 00:22
the person is not in rehab. in fact, the person was just promoted. my teacher is much more interested in physical ability than good character. that is why i asked in my original post what would somebody do in that case. i don't think that drugs has any place in a dojo. i know this guy still does them and has sold them in the past. maybe even still does. he is very good physically, so he keeps getting promoted. i don't think that's right. -K Doe

Oni
16th February 2002, 01:57
Argh...split this off and lost the original...oops :(

icynorth
16th February 2002, 04:57
You are right, drugs have no place in the dojo. They're wrong hands down. They are tools of weakness period, even for the excuses some will make. And for a teacher who looks past character only for the physical attributes, is obviously running a school for money and not for pride. Ones life attributes make him as much a warrior as his physical ability. If he sells it, he's street crap. Speak up.

mrmonkey
16th February 2002, 05:10
My vote....worry about yourself first....be safe....
If you can prove something, ask if your teacher knows about the persons problem, because you care that they are probably in need of help.
It's much better to care, or seem to care, for the person than to be jealous that they are more gifted than you, at low level basics.....

You can work harder and learn better skills and strategy and be appreciated for real martial art, or find a teacher who is capable of helping you become a REAL budoka/bugeisha.

Your teacher may have a plan for them...and they haven't decided to share it with anyone...

My 8.65 Euros.

16th February 2002, 13:35
Dear Karakokoro,

I had a student who was a very good kid. He came to me at the age of 17. After a while, I along with others started to become concerned with some people he was hanging out with, the stories he was coming up with as reason for his absence from training, and the new wad of cash he had with him at most times now. (He was without a "conventional" job)

One student of mine caught on straight away because his own brother went down a similar path. We voiced our concerns to each other and shared Ideas on how we could get involved.

I decided that if I became the "Parental figure" (his dad was M.I.A.)
it might close down the communication line, putting me in the "you don't understand generation" so, I kept things as they were, and just made some comments.

For example, "Hmmm... you sure have allot of money for an unemployed person..." Giving him a chance to "fess up" He would play it off and I didn't push it, but he knew I knew..

So my job was to keep him in the Gym as often as possible, keep him busy and give him positive motivation and options. In the Gym he was around professional people, family people etc... Everyone offering direction by example.

Finally one day I just came out and said, well, I can understand how hard it might be to turn away such easy money. And he came out and said, all I do is "run for some guy" so on his own, he finally admitted it. I only said, well, be careful, and think about what your doing, don't be stupid.

After that, he would come to ME and bring up the subject, telling me he wanted out of the situation, but all his friends were in the scene and the money was nice etc.. By training, there were days where he was VERY intense I think it was good for him to be able to hit the bag, and do some sparring, it was an outlet.

One day he came in and said, thanks so much for your help, I am joining the United States Marine Corps! And he did! And today, he is out there fighting for all of us.

So maybe your Sensei has a plan? If you feel your sensei simply does not care, or is not aware (and if you know, I would think so would your Sensei), but if you feel he doesn't care, maybe you need to see how uncomfortable that makes you feel and if you want to be a part of that Dojo...

Or, you can trust your Sensei to do the right thing according to HIS point of view.

best of luck,

-Rick

karakokoro
16th February 2002, 17:12
a lot of good things were said that I agreed with. that was a great story about the guy joining the Marines. i train for myself and usually don't give a fig about rank. i am happy to see promotions go out. seeing a drug user/drug seller get into the scrolls does make me sick to my stomach, though.I had to train with this guy today. I could barely stand being next to him without yelling "i can't believe you take drugs and try to pass yourself off as a good person" i have to believe and i certainly would hope my teacher has a "big plan" and may even be reading this, and plans to do something about this guy in the dojo. it's good getting different ways of looking at this problem. that is why i came in here and asked that question. that is why e-budo is so necessary. for the people training to get different thoughts and opinions, and maybe even advice on how to handle tough decisions when concerning their training. thanks guys. -K Doe

Jon S.
17th February 2002, 16:38
The story about the guy who joined the marines is a great example of how compassion can lead to a positive outcome.


Karakokoro,

The sooner you can stop viewing your fellow student as someone who is sub-human, and instead see him as a fellow human with some significant problems, the sooner you'll be able to do your part to help him. Even if simply trying to make his experiences in class more positive than they already are, after all, if he's in class he's doing the right thing, at least sometimes; and if the guy likes you, any dismay you might express about his drug use will have a greater effect than if he doesn't.

Just a thought.


Jon Small

cjl108
17th February 2002, 19:16
IMO You(karakokoro) need to re-examine your views on what is good and bad and try to develop a sense of compassion. another poster hit it on the head with the jealousy comment. It seems that you have some growing up to do. Do the guy a favor and drop your superiority complex and self-righteousness. At the same time, be strong with your convictions and set a strong example.

Cory Leistikow

Tami
17th February 2002, 20:28
Have all you overly compassionate folks ever stopped to think about what this fellow's habits are doing or could do to himself or others? Any of you have kids who this guy might be selling to? Any of you have friends who have been killed by drunk or drugged drivers? Any of you know innocent people who have been killed by being caught in the crossfire of a deal gone wrong?

I have two teenage daughters. I don't think they are stupid enough to use drugs, but I know they have friends who have gone down that path.

One of my best friends from high school was killed a couple of years ago by a repeat offender drunk driver--right in front of her husband and kids--as she legally crossed the road in a crosswalk.

One of my daughter's friends was killed by a drug imparred driver who shouldn't have been out on parole, or behind the wheel, but was. Her brother, who was driving, has suffered numerous surgeries to correct the physical injuries he received. As for his emotional scars......

The son of some people I know was killed when a "friend's" drug deal went wrong.

The "don't get envolved--let other people handle it" attitude is part of why the world is in such a mess these days. I don't have the answers-- and they aren't ever easy-- but I say if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Karakokoro, your concerns are valid. Personally, I wouldn't continue training in a situation where I knew the sensei was aware of that kind of behavior and was seemingly condoning it by his continued promotion of that student. I think you have a moral obligation to yourself and the rest of us to talk to the sensei and at least find out if he knows what is going on. If he does and chooses not to do anything about it then why would you want to learn from him? I think we have an obligation to ourselves to be careful who we associate with be it teacher or student.

Good luck to you, Karakokoro. And for the rest of you who think he shouldn't do anything about it, well, I am glad I don't have to train with you all. Icynorth--hats off to your candor and good sense.

Sincerely,
Tami

17th February 2002, 20:44
Dear Tami,

your pain and anger is felt through your words.

I think that maybe it has clouded what you read here. I don't believe anyone was saying not to do anything. I myself in the situation I was in did in fact do something. And thank Buddha it worked out!

Tami, I hope time and love can help heal the wounds of those effected by the events you described. Please don't let those events close your heart to those who may need your strength, and compassion and wise advice and example.

My best to you Tami,

-Rick

Jon S.
17th February 2002, 21:30
Tami,

I am also sorry that you've been victimized by alcohol and drugs - we all have in one way or another.

Rick is right, we are not advocating doing nothing. The fact is though that if the student with the problem is ostracized, the effect would be the same as if nothing was done. Providing a positive environment and seeking to create gradual change by subtle means would be preferable, IMO.

Best wishes,

Jon Small

joe yang
17th February 2002, 21:53
Before all the liberals out there get carried away, thinking you have to be warm and fuzzy to be a real leftist, remember the fall of Saigon. Three days after the take over, the North Vietnamese rounded up all the local riff raff, thieves, dealers, addicts, etc., held court on street corners, took a neighborhood poll and conducted summary executions on the spot.

If some low life cheeses you off, makes you miserable just being in the room, sharing your air, ruin them. IF it makes you feel better. Don't be such a bleeding heart, go for it. Maybe some day it'll be you. :D

Tami
17th February 2002, 23:02
Rick,

I am curious here--your slow, "compassionate" treatment of the young fellow you wrote about leads me to a few questions: Did the other professionals at the Gym know about the situation and back you in your method? How about the rest of the students? Did the rest of the students think sensei must think drugs are ok since he let so-and-so keep training and get extra attention? Law of averages says it could very well have gone the other way with the young man--did you ever consider what would happen to him if he didn't respond as you hoped? Would you still after all these years be trying your darndest to turn that kid around? What if he had killed someone or been killed? Would you have felt any sense of responsibility for being overly passive and allowing such behavior to go on for so long with your full knowledge?

There is an old saying about people being so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good. Fortunately for your situation it turned out alright, but next time it might not.

Karakokoro did not come across to me as jealous. I think he is looking for justice. Two totally different things. Unfortunately justice isn't always to be had.

To me, many of the rest of you come across as willing to endanger the lives of everyone for the sake of being loving and compassionate to one. Would you have been so compassionate with those "poor misguided" hijackers on September 11 that you'd just let them fly the plane into their target?

Do you guys really want to train with someone who is on drugs? Don't you have concern for their safety and the safety of the rest of the dojo?

I honor you guys' sincerity in your beliefs, but personally I have to live in the real world instead of Mr. Roger's Neighborhood. There are concequences for our actions and unfortunately sometimes innocent people pay those concequences instead of the guilty. Drugs are illegal. Drugs are harmful to the individual. Drugs are harmful to society. I can have plenty of compassion for the individual who is caught up in an addiction, but that doesn't mean I am going to help them keep going on destroying themself and possibly others.

Choosing to train with an instructor who KNOWINGLY favors someone on drugs would definately not be my choice. You can make your own choice.

Sincerely,
Tami Chang

17th February 2002, 23:34
Originally posted by Tami Chang
Rick,

I am curious here--your slow, "compassionate" treatment of the young fellow you wrote about leads me to a few questions: Did the other professionals at the Gym know about the situation and back you in your method? How about the rest of the students? Did the rest of the students think sensei must think drugs are ok since he let so-and-so keep training and get extra attention? Law of averages says it could very well have gone the other way with the young man--did you ever consider what would happen to him if he didn't respond as you hoped? Would you still after all these years be trying your darndest to turn that kid around? What if he had killed someone or been killed? Would you have felt any sense of responsibility for being overly passive and allowing such behavior to go on for so long with your full knowledge?

Sincerely,
Tami Chang

Dear Tami,

you are entitled to your point of view.
I will answer your question.

*I* noticed that my student was getting involved with the wrong crowd and knew from experience what he was going through. (most of the people I grew up with are either dead or in Jail, a few made it out so did I..) Along with me was another student who had a brother who sold drugs and he noticed the signs as well.

We loved the person in question and got together and decided how we could best benifit him in these hard times he was having. Together we decided what we felt was our best course of action. It was not because we were "bleeding hearts" or anything, compassion sometimes is very forthright and agressive. Our decision was more a matter of skillful application.

The person in question had only a mother and a step father whom he disliked. If you really want to help someone, you would do no good to have him/her see you as one of the "other". First is communication, without that what is there?

The door must be open, we in this life are in charge of our choices, all we can do for each other is offer support, advice examples love and compassion, it is up to each individual to make the choice.

What would you have had us do? Kick him out?

Yes he may have been a part of something bad, maybe someone could have been killed? Again, what could we have done to stop that? What kills is that whole process. That environment, which is a big current, a cycle that exists beyond the individuals in it. The individuals come and go yet the environment continues.

What we can do, is to pull the individuals to safety, we can offer them a life preserver, but they need to grab it and then hold on to it.

What we did was to say we love you, we know what your doing, we can't stop you, but you know you are better than this. Please be mindful of your actions, it is more than easy money, the effects are wide spread be mindful of your actions. Also know that here you have a home, you have friends and you can talk about anything. Lets together look at why you are making these choices and see if they are good choices or bad choices...

People so many times are afraid to speak from their heart to others, if I tell my parents they will be mad, I will be in trouble. If I tell so and so they will call the cops. So many ways people shut down and feel isolated. Instead validate people, allow them freedom to make choices "good" and "bad" offer mindfull listening, understanding.

VERY few people truly want to hurt others, most people are simply trying to be happy and maybe their view of how to attain happiness is abberated. So maybe we can help them see for themselves that there are other ways, you MUST first have trust communication and love.

As an aside, three of his friends came with him to the Marines, he changed, they seen he could do it and he gave them the love we gave him and they made the better choice.

As for the other students, they are free to make their own choices as well, if any of them felt uneasy about him being there they could leave of course. But instead those who were aware were all supportive.
What if one of your children were in that situation? What would you do? I had a cousin who was very heavy into drugs, before his parents found out, they would often brag that if any of their kids got into drugs they would be "out on their ass" well when it happened, they not only did not throw him out, they spent loads of money on his recovery, their love became stronger.

Last, my point in the original thrust of the thread was that maybe his Sensei has a plan, I do not know the particular situation.

best to you Tami,


-Rick

17th February 2002, 23:40
Originally posted by Tami Chang
Rick,

To me, many of the rest of you come across as willing to endanger the lives of everyone for the sake of being loving and compassionate to one. Would you have been so compassionate with those "poor misguided" hijackers on September 11 that you'd just let them fly the plane into their target?

Sincerely,
Tami Chang

One point about the above.

Yes they were misguided, and I feel GREAT compassion for the hijackers. If I were on that plane, I would have killed as many of them as I could, because of my compassion for them. I would glady taken the Karma of killing them to save them from the Karma of killing so many, also I would have saved many as well.

Compassion is more than hugs and kisses, thats attached love. Compassion is ACTION, appropriate action for the benifit of beings in the truest sense..

Take care,

-Rick

Tami
18th February 2002, 00:37
Rick,

I am truly glad your young friend was able to turn his life around and that it has had a good effect on others. Who is to say but that someone else handling it a different way wouldn't have had just as good results--or even better? We'll never know and it doesn't matter.

However well your situation turned out, I don't think it answers Karakokoro's original questions. He asked whether he should tell the teacher or leave the school or what? Keep in mind that Karakokoro is not the Sensei here--he is a student. If Karakokoro's dojo was yours and you were unaware of the situation wouldn't you want one of your students to bring it to your attention so that you could figure out if it was true and how to handle it accordingly?

What I hear you telling him to do is blindly trust that his teacher has things under control because you feel that you did. Why not tell him to go stick his head in the sand and wait for everything to get better? I trust my Sensei, but I am not blind to the fact that she is human and can make mistakes and sometimes she may misjudge a situation or person. Something as serious as drug use in the dojo shouldn't just be swept under the rug.

I actually have taken concerns to my Sensei about alcohol use within the dojo and have trusted her handling of the situation. I would not want to train under someone that I couldn't take concerns to. I wouldn't want to train under someone who would not respect my concerns. I think Karakokoro should talk to his Sensei and then respond accordingly within his own belief system and conscience. In my opinion, those that questioned his concern about the situation and essentially called him jealous are not helping him by throwing a guilt trip (however well intentioned) on him when he isn't the guilty party.

:smash: I think this has pretty much been beaten to death here. :smash: I respect your right to your opinion and your right to disagree with mine. You are not going to convince me to turn a blind eye to dangerous dojo behavior nor to blindly trust any Sensei has things under control 100% of the time. Best of luck to you in other regards.

Sincerely,
Tami Chang

Tamdhu
18th February 2002, 02:08
>what would you do?

If it was taking up a significant amount of space in my head, I would take it up with the instructor in private and get his or her take on the situation. Upon learning your instructor's point of view, it's all up to you from there to decide how you will respond, in terms of staying or leaving.

>do you tell the teacher?

I say yes, absolutely. I see it as an act of respect and courtesy to keep your instructor informed when something dojo-related concerns you. Just bear in mind that your instructor may see things differently than you do, or that the situation in question may not turn out to be as clear as it seemed at first.

>leave the school?

That's a personal choice, I think. If you feel that the instructor's leniency towards or ignorance of a particular situation is detrimental to the integrity of the dojo and the training that takes place there, then perhaps yes. That's largely subjective, though, and something only you can decide for yourself.

18th February 2002, 02:31
Originally posted by Tami Chang
Rick,

What I hear you telling him to do is blindly trust that his teacher has things under control because you feel that you did. Why not tell him to go stick his head in the sand and wait for everything to get better? I trust my Sensei, but I am not blind to the fact that she is human and can make mistakes and sometimes she may misjudge a situation or person. Something as serious as drug use in the dojo shouldn't just be swept under the rug.

Dear Tami,

maybe thats what you "hear" but not at all what I am telling him...
Here is what I wrote:

"So maybe your Sensei has a plan? If you feel your sensei simply does not care, or is not aware (and if you know, I would think so would your Sensei), but if you feel he doesn't care, maybe you need to see how uncomfortable that makes you feel and if you want to be a part of that Dojo...

Or, you can trust your Sensei to do the right thing according to HIS point of view. "

Just to be clear, I did not sweep the situation under the rug in my Dojo. And I am not telling Karakoro to either. I didn't tell him to go to his Sensei with the information because I would hope that his Sensei is in tune with his deshi to know that for himself, especially if another student is aware of it. If however his Sensei does not know, then I say tell him, not because we need to kick the street trash out of the Dojo, but to help the person.






:smash: I think this has pretty much been beaten to death here. :smash: I respect your right to your opinion and your right to disagree with mine. You are not going to convince me to turn a blind eye to dangerous dojo behavior nor to blindly trust any Sensei has things under control 100% of the time. Best of luck to you in other regards.

Sincerely,
Tami Chang

It was never my intention to tell you or convince you to turn a blind eye to any thing, in fact I talked of MINDFULNESS over and over again... Mindfulness is awareness, attention, not a blind eye. BTW you never replied to my question to you, which is your choice...

To Karakoro, again, my point to you in black and white, if you don't feel your Sensei knows, tell him. Then deal with the effects, meaning the way he handles it. If you don't like it, do what you need to do.

I have nothing left to say.

best to everyone,

-Rick

Tami
18th February 2002, 04:56
Rick,

Sorry I didn't answer it before, but to answer your question regarding my own kids, I would not throw them out on their asses. Nor would I let them keep the car keys if they were drinking or using drugs. Nor would I hold them up as pillars of society and let them continue to endanger others and themselves. Nor would I send them off to train at the dojo to set a bad example for others and risk harm to them or their buyu. I would get them help and give them support.

But you know what, dealing with your own kids and dealing with someone elses' is going to call for different measures and different levels of support. Every situation is going to be unique. I am glad you are so proud of what you did, but it ain't gonna turn out that way for everyone every time.

I am done with this now--and I hope your young protege is still on the straight and narrow.


Tamdhu,

Thank you for a very useful, to the point reply to the original questions of this thread.

Best regards,
Tami

karakokoro
18th February 2002, 05:44
I spent alot of time reading the varying thoughts of all the people here on this thread. Again, i felt it was good that the ideas and opinions ran the gammut. Of course it usually feels good to have people identify with your situation and be able to relate to it. people thinking that I had complexes about inferiority and so forth was without doubt interesting. it is a weak person that does not welcome such varying scrutiny of their beliefs and comments. of course the politically correct way of looking at this is "we are all entitled to our opinion". i feel that maybe i need to add something to the equation. the original question was "what do you do when a student keeps getting rank even though they take drugs/used to (maybe still do) sell drugs." well, it is no accident what forum i landed in. i hope this doesn't add fuel to the fire. unless i miss my guess, if i did bring this up to my teacher, i would be kicked out of our "organization".the "organization" is translated as "warrior god training hall". he would look at it as "snitching" rather than helping the student by telling him that he uses drugs/has sold them in the past. what do you guys think? -K Doe

Jon S.
18th February 2002, 07:13
Karakokoro,

I think you should take what was offered at face value and make your own judgements about what you should do; and not try to read into what's been said. People here can only offer different insights based on a general idea of the situation.

Certainly a point you might consider (one which I don't think you specified) is whether his drug problem is one that he leaves outside the dojo, or does he bring it into the dojo. At the same time you might ask yourself to what extent you leave your own prejudices outside the dojo. Certainly if he brings his problem to class than you not only have the right, but an obligation to inform the sensei if you suspect he's ignorant. If he comes to class sober, and you only know about the problem from heresay or his own words, than you still have the right to make sure that the sensei is aware of the student's alleged problem if you so choose - and I don't think doing so would cause you to be branded as a snitch, unless your attitude was that of one.

Your decisions are your own. We don't know you, your sensei, your fellow students, the quality of your art, the availability of other dojos, and many other factors which might be considered when deciding how to handle the situation.

As for being compassionate, it's a matter of the attitude, not necessarily the method. It's not that some of us are for the "warm and fuzzy" approach, but rather that we recognize that to banish a student who has such a problem would only serve to negate entirely our chances of helping him, and he'd be back in society a little more pissed off at the world. So who would you rather have a run in with on the street: a drug addict who only engages in negative behavior, or one who at least has a positive facet in his life that allows for the development of morals and self-discipline?

I hope everything works out well for you and your fellow student.


Jon Small

18th February 2002, 08:07
Originally posted by Jon S.
Karakokoro,

As for being compassionate, it's a matter of the attitude, not necessarily the method. It's not that some of us are for the "warm and fuzzy" approach, but rather that we recognize that to banish a student who has such a problem would only serve to negate entirely our chances of helping him, and he'd be back in society a little more pissed off at the world.
Jon Small


BINGO!

Dead center right on the point I was trying to make.

Thank you Jon!

Best to you,

-Rick

MarkF
18th February 2002, 11:03
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You may not live long enough to make them all yourself."-Jigoro Kano


Mark

Marc Renouf
18th February 2002, 22:25
karakokoro, I know of no Bujinkan dojo in which you would be "kicked out" for being a "snitch." That's just not the way it works. And if you do get kicked out of that dojo for voicing a valid concern, you're better off.

spartanmachine
26th February 2002, 20:46
Would you have been so compassionate with those "poor misguided" hijackers on September 11 that you'd just let them fly the plane into their target?

Tami,if you can't see the difference here then you have serious problems. How could you even draw such a ridiculous comparison?

mrmonkey
27th February 2002, 06:49
It is not neccesary to agree with an enemy or a person who is a potential threat, but it is easier to predict their actions if you can appreciate their situation.

There are some who approach their martial arts career/hobby as if it were a religion...much like fundamentalists who would crash a plane into a building. Or place a truck bomb in front of a federal building.

Castigating a drug user will not help them get better.
Usually their emotional pain is behind their drug use and bravado.
They see themselves as unrecoverable, and so accept their place and their way of deadening their pain as "just the way it is."

Underneath addiction could be physical or sexual abuse...neglect...chemical imbalance...being badly parented by alcoholics....

Recovering these people could take years of therapy or just being their first real friend.
They have to want to be less odd........
Martial Arts, sports, family connection, religion are all things that can offer people a substitute for drugs.....

Trust in God, but tie up your camels. : )

Tami
27th February 2002, 13:21
Spartanmachine:

You can't see that being "kind" and letting someone continue to sell drugs in hopes they will eventually come around or that someone else will help them is dangerous to everyone else in a community? You can't see that letting people train in the dojo and go out driving or whatever under the influence of drugs or alcohol is dangerous? Maybe you have some serious problems of your own.

spartanmachine
27th February 2002, 14:06
You can't see that being "kind" and letting someone continue to sell drugs in hopes they will eventually come around or that someone else will help them is dangerous to everyone else in a community? You can't see that letting people train in the dojo and go out driving or whatever under the influence of drugs or alcohol is dangerous? Maybe you have some serious problems of your own.

Tami, Someone taking drugs and possibly selling them is wrong , yes. But trying to compare a person who takes drugs, however misguided and troubled they may be, and yes even potentially dangerous to others as well, is one thing. A person deliberately killing thousands of innocent people for political and religious reasons is entirely another. These are two completely different types of people and cannot be grouped together. Yes a drunk driver is irresponsible and criminal but can we compare him to a serial killer, these two are in totally different ball parks.
Personally I'm sick and tired of people trying to capitalise on Sept 11th, be it to sell their ideas or for some other commercial objective. Sept. 11th was a tragedy caused by fanatics, let's not forget that. I believe we owe that much to the people who died.
Tami I'm sure you are an intelligent and reasonable person, don't take this as an attack just think carefully about what it is you're saying here.
Thanks and be well.

Budoist
4th March 2002, 20:38
To karakokoro:

To my knowledge, Hatsumi Soke is the only person who can kick someone out of the Bujinkan. Unless your instructor is the Boss, or I misread your translation of the "organization"'s name, I don't think you should have that worry. An individual instructor can kick you out of their dojo, true, but (as has been asked) if they do it for you voicing your concerns over this, is this really the place you want to train?

I can see Tami's point of view. In training, you put your health (and life depending on the technique and person involved) in the hands of your partner. If your partner's judgement is significantly impaired through substance abuse, you run the risk of being the sober driver in a drunken accident (to borrow from the examples given above). This is a very pertinent concern for a student in a dojo, and one I think karakokoro has the right to address.

On the counterpoint, however, I agree with the other posts saying that kicking the student out may not be the best opinion. (Note, the following is not an attempt to convince/convert, but to express my understanding of the ideas previously presented). If a parent finds their child abusing drugs, they have the control and option of taking them to get help except in the most extreme cases. I think that Rick's story was meant to illustrate that as a martial arts instructor, you don't have that option. You cannot force the person not to train in the martial arts, just not at your school. Kicking them out will simply force them to find another school where the instructor may not care as much as Rick did for his student. You also cannot really not let them keep the keys. If they "keys" in the example translates to martial knowledge in reality, the keys are permanently theirs to keep. And who is to say what kind of trouble they can get into with what they already have access to? Therefore, a very careful path must be tread where you don't isolate the individual, yet attempt to get him to the help he needs. It is much easier, and more permanent, if the person is willing.

To use a completely off topic example in an attempt to allow cooler heads to prevail, take weight loss for example. It does not work for many people because the don't really want to lose the weight. They feel pressure from media, or the significant others, and so do it for a while. But at first chance, they "slip" and gain all the old weight plus more. The ones who get to the point where they really feel the need to change, make lifestyle changes. They change the food they eat, the frequency of excercise, sometimes even the people they associate with; all in an attempt to improve their health and/or looks.

I think what Rick et. al were saying is that, with the limited control available to an instructor, the best bet (if you really care for the person) is to try to get them, on their own, to reach the point of making that lifestyle change. That way it's more personal and can have a truly lasting effect. But if the instructor doesn't care, then the attitude becomes "by all means kick them to the curb, let someone else deal with it."

Personally karakokoro, that you're posting implies to me that you really want to talk to your instructor about it, and so you should do it. Go to training early, ask to speak with them privately for a minute and get it off your chest. Or do it after training. Or call. Or send an email. Or post a letter. This is your instructor. You've already put a good deal of trust in him concerning your health during training. Have the faith that he'll at least listen.

Budoist
4th March 2002, 20:42
Just wanted to add that I don't recall seeing it posted that this person is coming to class impaired by drug use. Knowing that the person does this outside of the dojo is completely different to them coming in impaired.

John Lindsey
4th March 2002, 21:57
A few questions:

1. Does it matter in this discussion as to what type of drugs this guy is selling/doing? Would you be more lenient if it was Marijuana rather than coke?
2. Would it shock you to know that a certain California dojo paid off a guest instructor with drugs when they were short of money to pay his fees?
3. Would anyone mind if I move this from the Ninpo forum to the Teacher and Student forum? Or does this suggest that drug use more prevalent in Ninpo or the Bujinkan for some reason? Does it attract more free spirited folks who are into such things, or is this a total misunderstanding due to the actions of a few folks who ruin it for the rest? As for the Genbukan, I have yet to find anyone involved in drugs or who even talk about it. Maybe there are and they are just being quiet about it? Maybe all my students are doing bong hits after class and I just don’t know it.
:look:

Oni
4th March 2002, 22:29
John,

Feel free to move it if you wish. In answer to one of your questions....something to think about.


Maybe there are and they are just being quiet about it? Maybe all my students are doing bong hits after class and I just don’t know it.

Not saying that your students are or are not 'doing bong hits' after class...but the percentage of people in the US that very likely do smoke pot would very likely astound many people. There are many folks out there that do that you would never in a million years guess at. This is because unlike the potheads you see, they do not wear it like a badge on their sleeves. I have read countless interviews and reports of people that do smoke pot for whatever their reasons are that do not let anyone know it in anyway.

Personally I think we have far more to worry about from the legal drugs of alcohol, cigerettes, and prescription opiates than we do about some of the illegal ones.

Mark Brecht
4th March 2002, 22:52
Originally posted by Oni
Personally I think we have far more to worry about from the legal drugs of alcohol, cigerettes, and prescription opiates than we do about some of the illegal ones.

Hmm, I partly agree in regards to drunken drivers etc...

However, illegal drugs and substances way to much tolerated in the US. People always say, "oh, it`s just pot man"...

The problem is it creats a black market. People who smoke "just" pot, still usually buy it from a dealer. Who makes his money with it. This money goes into an illegal economy that supports everything from hard drugs, prostitution, weapons to child pornography. Kids get addicted... Addicts need money for the next fix, and kill your grandmother for a few bucks... Law Enforcement officer get killed in the line of duty. THAT is the reality, and the consequences of smoking "just pot".

If somebody grows their own stuff, I really don`t care. Honestly I think they should legalize all the drugs. It would stop the black market economy, and safe a lot of innocent lifes. Sure some people will bite the dust, but they would probably anyaway (not everybody is going to make it in life unfortunatly). Everybody is responsible for themself, and it is their choice to do drugs or not.

Oni
4th March 2002, 22:59
Hmm,

I think your second section answers your first section quite nicely....

I hope this doesn't turn into a legalization of drugs debate however. I don't think a budo forum is quite the place for that.




Originally posted by Mark Brecht


Hmm, I partly agree in regards to drunken drivers etc...

However, illegal drugs and substances way to much tolerated in the US. People always say, "oh, it`s just pot man"...

The problem is it creats a black market. People who smoke "just" pot, still usually buy it from a dealer. Who makes his money with it. This money goes into an illegal economy that supports everything from hard drugs, prostitution, weapons to child pornography. Kids get addicted... Addicts need money for the next fix, and kill your grandmother for a few bucks... Law Enforcement officer get killed in the line of duty. THAT is the reality, and the consequences of smoking "just pot".

If somebody grows their own stuff, I really don`t care. Honestly I think they should legalize all the drugs. It would stop the black market economy, and safe a lot of innocent lifes. Sure some people will bite the dust, but they would probably anyaway (not everybody is going to make it in life unfortunatly). Everybody is responsible for themself, and it is their choice to do drugs or not.

Jon S.
5th March 2002, 01:39
Originally posted by Mark Brecht


Hmm, I partly agree in regards to drunken drivers etc...

However, illegal drugs and substances way to much tolerated in the US. People always say, "oh, it`s just pot man"...

The problem is it creats a black market. People who smoke "just" pot, still usually buy it from a dealer. Who makes his money with it. This money goes into an illegal economy that supports everything from hard drugs, prostitution, weapons to child pornography. Kids get addicted... Addicts need money for the next fix, and kill your grandmother for a few bucks... Law Enforcement officer get killed in the line of duty. THAT is the reality, and the consequences of smoking "just pot".

If somebody grows their own stuff, I really don`t care. Honestly I think they should legalize all the drugs. It would stop the black market economy, and safe a lot of innocent lifes. Sure some people will bite the dust, but they would probably anyaway (not everybody is going to make it in life unfortunatly). Everybody is responsible for themself, and it is their choice to do drugs or not.



Just to put forth some objective points:

First, regarding "kids get addicted...kill your grandmother" etc. (not sure if you were referring to the direct results of pot use, or the indirect results enabling increased supply of harder drugs because of money generated by pot on the black market, but if you meant direct results, read on) marijuana is not physically addicting, only psychologically. So it could be argued that it is not the drug that is addictive, but rather the users personality. Moreover, the links between marijuana use and violent criminal behavior generally don't exist, unless it was used in conjunction with alcohol or other drugs.

"THAT is the reality, and the consequences of smoking "just pot".

That's a lot of reality to contribute to marijuana use. Again, if you are drawing the connection because of the money it contributes to the black market, proponents of marijuana could just as easily contribute the "reality" to misguided legislation, and blame the gov't. I agree with you that a possible good solution would be to legalize it all (prostitution too) for two reasons: 1) as Lincoln said: "prohibition, of any sort, strikes a blow at the fundamental principles upon which this country was founded" (or something like that); and 2) because, personally, I would much rather see the gov't (and theoretically, the people) receive the money that's generated by the black market, than the criminals (and this way it could really be a "controlled substance"). The quantity of money that could be generated would be enormous, with which they could build rehab. centers, improve education, etc.

In college I did a research paper on marijuana. I was astonished by what I learned concerning the process that the legislation to ban it went through; and all of the propaganda and yellow journalism that went along with that process. The introduction of the spanish term "marijuana", to describe what was commonly known as hemp, implied it was a Mexican devil drug that would make one steal cars (like Mexicans - not my view, but the impression that Hearst and others were trying to convey), and make blacks want to sit at the front of the bus; and also had the misleading effect of giving the impression that it was something entirely different from hemp - thus confusing the AMA, who, upon discovering the truth about the drugs identity three days prior to the vote, strongly advised the committee (the Ways and Means committee - why not a more appropriate committee? Because bills in that committee went straight to the Senate floor without having to go through the House) not to pass the legislation, indicating that hemp had many medical benefits. Because of this stance, the AMA spokesperson was dismissed from the committee meeting. When the bill reached the Senate, someone asked if anyone had asked the AMA's opinion, and he was informed that the AMA recommended passing the bill.

In short, corruption, lies, and the influence of petro-chemical companies that didn't want the competition with their newly developed synthetic fibers were the forces at work behind the prohibition of hemp, NOT a concern for the wellfare of the people. Is it a coincidence that the year hemp was illegalized was the year after a harvesting machine was developed that would enable it to compete with those companies?

Nonetheless, it is a drug and it is illegal, and it's abuse is a matter of concern. However, I, too, am far more concerned about the damaging effects that alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs have on society. I think we need to focus on solutions that involve rehabilitation rather than incarceration; and I find it appalling that simple treatments such as "the patch" are so expensive.

I present these points because pot smokers are all too often unjustly villianized, partly because of pot being associated with harder drugs, by those who've formed their opinions based on propaganda rather than research; and because the implication that all of the other problems relating to the drug underworld are the result of the existence of marijuana is mistaken, IMO.

So, I'm not looking to create a debate on the legalization of drugs, nor am I offering a stance on the matter. I just wanted to expose some facts that, as far as I know, are true (and I would welcome corrections if I'm mistaken), and offer an opinion or two. Having known good people who have been persecuted in one way or another for casual marijuana use, I think it is unjust for the persecutors to do so based on stereotypes, bigotry, and a shallow understanding of the matter.



Regards,

Jon Small

O'Neill
5th March 2002, 08:08
Drug use and dealing are a problem and the people involved in these activities are criminal indeed. But I don't think that we can write these people off as hopeless, after all most the big companies today are commanded by former flower children that snorted half of Columbia.
Even our last president and our present president have had experiences with drugs. What does that say about our nations drug problems? Wasn't it the CIA that helped bring these drugs in, this was uncovered and America hardly raised an eyebrow.

The drug issue is a debate that can be discussed all day. It is very dangerous for drug use to be tolerated in the dojo as there are many safety concerns not to mention the moral issues. I would not want to study alongside anyone that gets high before class but to just write someone off as useless scum because they use drugs may limit our ability to help them. It is a tough topic indeed.

Erin O'Neill

Iain
5th March 2002, 10:03
This isn't the local drug abuse centre. All anyone here can offer you is annecdotal evidence and opinion as far as solutions to the abuse problem go. If you want good solid advice on how to help this person, talk to a councillor. There are tried and proven ways to help drug abusers, and I'm pretty sure I know none of them.

If you want to know if you should leave you dojo: I'm not you, and neither are all the people replying to this post. Your problem is indecisiveness. Ask yourself if you want to stay or go. Yes, airing the problem can help a little, but your airing it with the wrong people. Air your problem with someone who has the ability to affect the it in some way.

Drug abuse is a horrible problem best dealt with on a personal level. Neither myself or anybody else posting on this thread has a real emotional bead on your situation, and we are far from having a complete grasp of your predicament. As such any advice given by myself or anyone else is highly suspect.

My advice is aviod the advice of people that barely know you and whom you barely know. Make your own decision based on the actions of the people involved, not the reactions of an uninvolved third party.

O'Neill
5th March 2002, 17:05
I agree totally, those posting really are not emotionally involved and can state how they "think" that they were react. A program is the best bet for a drug user but if not ready or truly ready to change, than nothing can help.

Budoist
8th March 2002, 18:30
Originally posted by Mark Brecht

If somebody grows their own stuff, I really don`t care.

Then your problem isn't so much with the use of the drug, but with its source?

Laotse
9th March 2002, 04:21
Obviously -- alcohol and tobacco.

Years ago, when I was a student at a karate dojo, this subject hit home in a devastating fashion. The school had a clear no-drugs, no-alcohol, no-tobacco policy stated by the front door, and on the door of the director's office. The director, BTW, was president of the North American branch of this Shorin-ryu system.

Then one day the system's Soke came visiting from Japan. He was (is?) a highly respected karate master then in his early 70s. His speed was awesome, especially for a man of his years -- and for a man who filled the dojo with the stench of his tobacco smoking, in the director's office. The smell remained for more than a week after he left.

But he was the real deal. What do you make of that?

Jon S.
9th March 2002, 06:47
Sounds like he didn't or couldn't read the sign.


Not to be disagreeable Iain, but, though this isn't the local drug abuse center, it is a place where someone can learn from the experiences of others; and the situation here is definately related to martial arts. So, that advice was sought here is perfectly understandable. The advice of a counselor could be useful because they know about drugs, but not many of them know about dojos. For the counselor to be able to apply the "tried and proven methods", the person in question has to want treatment.

You are right in that being unable to understand specifics, the advice we can offer can only be general; but sometimes the advice of uninvolved strangers can be the best advice, and sometimes it's of no use at all.


Jon Small

Laotse
11th March 2002, 02:15
Originally posted by Jon S.
Sounds like he didn't or couldn't read the sign.


I'm sure he could not, since he required a translator at all times. Do you think it would have mattered? I do not. Of course, the director, his student, could have said something about it, but I doubt that he did. After all, his 5th dan, received a few days later, was on the line. I guess he failed to realize that the respect of his students was on the line as well.

It must have been a difficult dilemma, one I have admittedly never faced. What is more important, the respect of one's teacher that one sees only once every few years, or the respect of one's student that one sees every day?

Yojimbo558
12th March 2002, 05:11
Hi there!

To me however the most horrifying thought of this individual being apart of the dojo is that they sell drugs, which means that the instructor can't over look the possibility that his dojo is not only serving as a means of training for him...but is also a potential recruiting ground for new clients.

In addition to this, there's also the possibility that since what they're doing is illegal, that should the police discover their activities and attempt to arrest them...this individual will not be using what they learned for self-defense, but will be using it in an attempt to keep out of jail!

Drug addicts also bring another dimension...some of them have communicable diseases. Not just HIV, but stuff like the various types of Hepatitis...now & then, unless your martial art is no contact...someone gets cut...be it from someones finger or toe nails or a weapon...be it a blade or a stick...most often with adrenaline its never seems to be the person who's cut that discovers this but their training partners...who after finding blood on their uniform & the mat then stop training so that they can discover whose bleeding.

I had one friend almost get someone's blood in his eye when he went to wipe the sweat off his face with his sleeve & barely noticed the red splotches rapidly approaching.

I've turned away people who've shown up drunk...because my students weren't worth risking to someone whose timing & judegment were off. In addition to that I wasn't going to put myself into a liability situation.

Along time ago, a friend of mine & I talked about opening a dojo together. After hunting extensively we found a place that seemed ideal. Later that night to my shock, he celebrated by getting high...& I took off. When he asked if there was a problem, I told him, "Yes there is...I can't open a school & tell kids that they need to stay focused and stay away from drugs...when the co-owner is a User & could be telling them that Pot's not that bad."

Suffice it to say, the stuff's illegal, and I had to look at the possibility of what could happen if we'd gone ahead and opened the place together. The idea of cops doing a bust was more than enough to sink the idea. I wished him well and moved on...until that night I had no idea that he did drugs. When he admitted that this was something he did a few times a month I shuddered. Since we used to train twice a week, this was a side I hadn't seen before & I had no interest in getting an opportunity to see more of it.

I view what you described as being similar...the people that you surround yourself are a reflection of you. When I do martialarts or go to the gym, it's to workout, teach, learn & have fun...I don't have time for people who make a living breaking the law...and will do nothing to improve their fighting skills so that they might be better able to resist arrest...commit murder, rape or mugging.

The incident with the guy I thought about opening a school with has caused me to spend alot more time with my students, and pay close attention to who they are. You have to be careful who you teach...while not all people are bad, and some can be redeemed ( those that can have to want to be ).

I could live with one of my students killing an attacker...I could not live with the idea of one of my students using what I taught them to break the law.

Perhaps the easiest way to solve your dilema would be to do one thing...ask yourself whether if you had a son or daughter would you like your kid to be training in this school with this drug user/dealer. If the instructor doesn't get rid of him...then I recommend looking for another school. After all, there's some accidents that, "Sorry" just doesn't cut it.

Eric L. Bookin