Canadian AJJ - Rengokai, Kidokai, Gidokai etc.

[mithrandir]

Hi guys!

I was wondering if anyone could help me out...

I currently study Daito Ryu of the Hisa branch here in Vancouver BC. My teacher's sensei is Kenkichi Ohgami, who received his 8th Dan from Takuma Hisa, but chose not to join the Takumakai, and remained independent.

As fate/luck/whatever would have it, I'm probably going to have to move back to Ontario in 1 to 2 years, so I'd like to start looking for a dojo now!

Does anyone know of any Daito Ryu dojos in Ontario??

On the web I've found something called the "Rengokai". It seems like a good tradional dojo EXCEPT they claim to descend from IESUKE HANMURA, who was a friend of Tanomo Saigo and well... anyone who reads Aikido Journal or has read Pranin's Daito-Ryu book, or visited the AikidoJournal.com knows where this going....

Is there Takumakai in Ontario?? or any legit Daito Ryu for that manner??

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanx all

[CKohalyk]

mithrandir,

I am sorry I don't know anything about Ontario, but I was interested in where you are studying in Vancouver. I know a few Daito-ryu people (Takumakai) thereabouts, but I have never heard of your dojo. Can you tell me where it is?

Thanks a lot,

CK

[Stéphan Thériault]

Hello, first off I believe that in their history(Rengokai), they say that Iesuke Hanmura was a friend of both Tanomo Saigo and of Sokaku Takeda's father. Now I contacted mr.Pranin of Aikido Journal last year about this group. I don't know if I still have that e-mail in my files; he basically said that they seem like nice sincere people, but, that they have failed to provide him any documentation to prove there lineage from Iesuke Hanmura. If you want some more info directly from mr.Pranin you can drop him an e-mail at aikinews@gol.com. It isn't much I know, but hope it helps.

[Edited by Stéphan Thériault on 07-26-2000 at 11:47 PM]

[mithrandir]

Originally posted by CKohalyk
mithrandir,

I am sorry I don't know anything about Ontario, but I was interested in where you are studying in Vancouver. I know a few Daito-ryu people (Takumakai) thereabouts, but I have never heard of your dojo. Can you tell me where it is?

Thanks a lot,

CK

Hi!

Our dojo is located at UBC at the Berwick Centre. The instructor is Joshua Mostow, yondan. Practice is Mondays and Wednsdays 6:30 - 8 pm.

Could you tell me about the Takumakai people you know? As our style originated with Hisa Sensei as well, it would be nice to get together with people who train in a similar way!

If you could post a contact, or email it to me, that would be great!

cheers,

[MarkF]

Originally posted by Stéphan Thériault
Hello, first off I believe that in their history(Rengokai), they say that Iesuke Hanmura was a friend of both Tanomo Saigo and of Sokaku Takeda's father. Now I contacted mr.Pranin of Aikido Journal last year about this group. I don't know if I still have that e-mail in my files; he basically said that they seem like nice sincere people, but, that they have failed to provide him any documentation to prove there lineage from Iesuke Hanmura. If you want some more info directly from mr.Pranin you can drop him an e-mail at aikinews@gol.com. It isn't much I know, but hope it helps.

[Edited by Stéphan Thériault on 07-26-2000 at 11:47 PM]

There was a bit of a "discussion" concerning this group in the great Daito ryu aiki wars of about six months ago, and one person in particular was said to be a nice person, but most with knowledge on the subject didn't think too much of him. His name is Simon Limoges, shihan, rokudan of something called Daito ryu aikibujutsu. His background was judo, and with another with "remarkable skills" and intention, one Rod Sacharnoski. If Brently is lurking somewhere, he may be able to tell you more of this group.

[Stéphan Thériault]

Mr.Feigenbaum, isn't mr.Limoges that guy from Montreal if memory serves. The communication with mr.Pranin was, as I said, last year. At that time I don't know if mr.Limoge was associated with the Rengokai. I had included their web site address( http://www.niagara.com/~zain/ ) in my e-mail to mr.Pranin, so I don't think he was talking about mr.Limoges. I should also say that a member of the Rengokai, ms.Ayako Yamamoto has written several articles for Furyu. And from those my perception has always been that they were a very sincere and traditional dojo.

[MarkF]

Mr. Theriault,
I apologize for not recognizing your name, but yes, now that you mention it, I do remember him being from Quebec. Someone, although I don't remember who, had contacted the Rengokai when his website was posted. Mr. Limoges claimed membership in the Rengokai and that is why I mentioned it. He also had emailed me several times, as well. I am sorry I didn't make myself clear, and meant no disrespect, but I do remember him claiming himself and school a member of Rengokai.

Sincerely,

[TysonWalters]

Hello Mike,

I train at Fuji Yama Dojo in Thorold Ontario, and we train in Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu. I believe the link for our website is listed above in a previous post. If you are curious about information about training, I would be more than happy to put you in contact with the appropriate people from our dojo.

You can email me at tysonwalters@hotmail.com if you would like any more information.

Sincerly,

Tyson Walters

[slimoges]

hello to everyone, i`m Shihan Limoges from Montreal. yes you can have a real Daito Ryu in Ontario the teacher is Sensei Del Cueto(menkyo Kaiden of rengokai in japan).and i understand the importance you give to Mr;pranin a nice guy i was taking with him two years ago or bits more time,any way Mr; pranin got the history of Sensei Kondo only, the Daito ryu learning by the late Dai Sensei Sokaku Takeda come from Saigo Tanomo but he was not the only one student of Saigo Tanomo we can find alot of private family who is not open to the public.and the rengokai is one of the hard one to go inside,if i compare to the other Daito Ryu Grouppe , we have the same curriculum of any one practiced in Japan .but you can belive what you whant,even Sokaku Takeda teache in his life 30,000 students like Mr pranin said . i bet you dont know everyone of his students itimpossible,did you need a paper to reconise your own mother, i dont,i reconise daito ryu when i see ,visit our dojo and make your statement after, if you do takumakai you probably reconise the technique wath ever the rank you have.i realy sorry for my bad english i`m french i try to writte to you to give the much help i can. good bless you and good chance ,Shihan S Limoges http://www.daitoryukidokan.com

[Brently Keen]

There are only four authentic legitimate branches of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. They are the Mainline, Daitokan (From Tokimune Takeda to Kondo sensei), the Takumakai (From Takuma Hisa to Mori sensei), the Kodokai (From Kodo Horikawa to Inoue sensei), and the Roppokai (founded by Okamoto sensei, also from Kodo Horikawa). A fifth group is the private dojo of the late Yukiyoshi Sagawa.

The Abashiri dojo of the Seishinkan branch were in fact students of the late Tokimune sensei, however it appears that they broke from Tokimune sensei prior to his passing. It also seems that at the time the senior members of the Abashiri dojo were only at about godan level. Nathan please correct if I'm wrong (I haven't been following the controversy lately).

There are a now a few other groups that have split off from these authentic groups. Recognition for these groups does not appear to be very strong or widespread among the above four or five groups (or the rest of the koryu budo/bujutsu community) from what I can see.

No Daito-ryu (or other aikijujutsu) group purporting to be descended from Tanomo Saigo rather than Sokaku Takeda has been able to verify their claim(s).

There is no historical evidence that Tanomo Saigo taught anyone other than Shiro Saigo (who had no Daito-ryu students), and Sokaku Takeda (who had 30,000 students). All of whom are listed in Sokaku's records and can be verified. Of Sokaku Takeda's many students only a handful were qualified with kyoju dairi. Only they can legitimately lay claim to pass on the authentic tradition. Today only the above mentioned 4-5 authentic groups have continued to be actively and legitimately involved with the dissemination of the art.

Beware folks, there are many so called masters out there who are purporting to teach Daito-ryu, but are neither qualified technically or authorized legitimately to do so.

Brently Keen

[slimoges]

Dear Historian Mr kenn. I read your text six months ago on E Budo and I realise you never know what you talking about when you talk about Daito Ryu. the fourth branche you mention it all under Sukaku Takeda Lineage,can you believe the Daito Ryu did exist in Aizu city before Sokaku came.and not just Tanomo Sensei or Takeda Sensei practiced this Art, the Daito Ryu was practiced by The Minamoto Clan and is decendants in Japan , can you accept the fact of the other practitionners exist outside the fourth branche you know , i think it`s not to hard to understand we talk about the Art who`s had twelve centuries of history and more.and some of these teachers dont call it Art Daito Ryu at all to escape a confrontation with a kind of people like you.but from my part i would be really interested in meeting you on the tatamis to realize your great talent in this Art because all the time somebody mention Daito Ryu, you come over and over I read somewhere you practice Daito Ryu since a bits but you actualy know alots about the Art, i mean you know enough to judge every teacher you dont know or never met , one of the biggest vertues of Daito Ryu is to respect each other, let me tell you my friend you are way off this vertu. some prayer can help you with this matter. Shihan S Limomoges. Montreal, Canada

[Kendoguy9]

Mr. Limomoges,

You claim that Daito-ryu is many hundreds of years old, however I have seen no proof from anyone that it predates Takeda Sokaku. The very name means "Great East" from my understanding to go along with the political flames of the time. I would be very interested in seeing documentation, from either within the Aizu clan, or outside of it, that can date Daito-ryu. I am sure the Aizu practiced some form of budo, but I have a feeling that Daito-ryu (as practiced today) is purely an invention of Takeda Sokaku. I understand that the Takeda clan is very old, but that does not create a direct link to the art. My family came over to the Americas from England and made wine in Maryland, that doesn't mean I have claim to the art of wine making or if I made wine today I could claim it is the same as my grandfathers made 300 years ago. I would also be interested in seeing any sort of menkyo, makimono, mokuroku etc. from Saigo Shiro. I know lack of evidence is not evendince against something, in all cases, but at some time one must draw the line.

I am sorry for not writing this in French, but what little French I know, is purely spoken. I wouldn't have the slightest idea of how to write the words.

Gambatte!!!

[slimoges]

Ah Ah Ah That the best one I ear from the budoka,I realy sorry can you whait just a few minutes the time i can take my bread back.i hope you better in kendo my friend still pratice with you bokken the real blade it to much for you.ah ah ah i have enough to talk with the junior ligue. Shihan S Limoges Montreal Canada (you make my day)

[MarkoMilitary]

I am interested in many branches of the today's Daito ryu, and I wanted to ask who are those guys in Canada that call themselves the Saigo-ha Daito ryu aikijujutsu?Are they somehow connected to the Takeda's Daito ryu branch(es)?I hope I'll get an answer on this.:karatekid

Marko,

The answer to your question is....Nope!


Toby Threadgill / Soryushin Dojo

[Brently Keen]

Aw Shucks Toby, you mean there's no connection between the Canadian Saigo-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu Takeda-ha Shinto-ryu soke, grandmaster, Dr. Williams? :confused:

Just think of all the poor fellows who've spent a months wages on those video tapes. :mad:


Sarcasm aside, Toby is absolutely right Marko, the group in question does not have, nor has it ever had any legitimate connection to any authentic branch of Daito-ryu.

Precisely because there is NO connection to Sokaku Takeda (or any Takeda prior or since), the individual behind this group has totally and fraudulently concocted all the multiple versions of his lineage in his very own vivid imagination. Supposed connections to Sokaku's teacher Saigo Tanomo are all inventions as well.

These days many people are claiming to teach Daito-ryu or various versions of "aikijutsu" or aikijujutsu deriving from Daito-ryu or aikido, but they're simply illegitimate attempts to cash in on the fame and glory of Daito-ryu's (and/or the Takeda family's) reputation. Their credentials are not only suspect, or outrightly fabricated, they also lack the technical skills, knowledge and abilities to support their claims, let alone teach.

Be careful folks, if you're interested in authentic Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu then take the time to seek out the real thing. If that's not possible for you now, then just stick with a good solid jujutsu or aikido system, in the meantime.

Incidentally, I believe Toby may have posted his own very interesting account of meeting this particular individual in person some time ago (perhaps before the crash), and I believe he can personally vouch for both his technical skills and character. :laugh: Dang, I'd love to have had the opportunity myself, I don't suppose there's any chance he might come to the 2002 Aiki Expo either, Aw Shucks.

Brently Keen

[Nathan Scott]

For some reason, I ended up at the Fujiyama dojo web page just now, and spent some time reading through it.

They claim, as mentioned previously, to be derived from the Saigo line of "Daito ryu", calling themselves "Dai Nippon Daito ryu Aikibujutsu Rengokai". They say they are headed by Yoshinori Ichikawa, who says he was a student of Tsunemitsu Ichikawa.

From the Fujiyama webpage, here are some observations to consider:

1) There is an article reprinted there called "Suemono Giri":

http://www.niagara.com/~zain/html/kandan/Feb99k1.htm

This article about suicide assitants, or "seconds" (Kaishaku-nin) was written in relation to the Daito ryu Kaishaku Soden no Koto (equiv. to Menkyo Kaiden).


"The techniques of the kaishaku soden are, of course, concealed. (snip) This level (known sometimes as kufu-den) separated the common swordsman from the master swordsman, which a Kaishakunin had to be.."

"Suemono giri, and other sections of the kaishaku soden,..."

The content of the article is pretty light on facts to begin with, but what is more important is that the kanji used for "kaishaku" in Daito ryu appears to be that of "annotated catalog", not "suicide assistant" (according to Japanese sources, which includes the book Nihon no Kobudo published by the Nippon Budokan. Kondo Katsuyuki appears to have contributed to the Daito ryu section).

Oops. Big difference in meaning, and one that you would think that a legit Daito ryu branch would know. Is that why they cannot disclose the contents?

2) In the "Aiki" web page:

http://www.niagara.com/~zain/html/aiki.htm

They list the well known quote by Mr. Arima (nobody seems to know his full name). This quote is the only (possible) evidence that I've ever seen to indicate that Saigo Shiro may have known Daito ryu or aspects of Daito ryu. And that quote by itself is really not all that compelling as evidence goes. Was it written in Mr. Arima's judo book?

The list of 6 principles they have below that happen to be the same as what Kondo Sensei teaches - except that the Rengokai has substituted the "rei" principle for "aiki".

Maybe some of our mainline study group members can comment on the definitions of these principles that they give. While the other principles they list have some degree of technical explanation, the section on aiki has almost no technical explanation.

3) At the "Ranking in Daito Ryu" page:

http://www.niagara.com/~zain/html/ranking.htm

There is a photo of a "rank" with the caption:


"A Daito ryu Mokuroku [catalogue] of techniques."

It could be that the name of the "rank" is also secret, but the kanji on the right side reads "Hiden Okugi no Koto". I wonder if they knew that? This makimono has been photographed in at least one Japanese publication that is easily accessible.

4) At the "Daito Ryu and Aikido" page:

http://www.niagara.com/~zain/html/aikido.htm


Daito ryu has aiki age, jitto aiki, fure aiki, aiki nage etc. Which aikidoka has not experienced them, almost unknowingly, when performing any type of kokyu nage?

Fure aiki are "touch" throws. People in Aikido do not use this when performing kokyunage, and in many cases, cannot perform it to any level at all.

**

The webpage as a whole contains a lot of information that is clearly borrowed from Stan Pranin's publications and other works that likely include "Samurai Aikijutsu" by Obata Toshishiro Sensei.

The group is big on atemi, and appears to be influenced by the mainline techniques of Takeda Tokimune Sensei and the Takumakai. There are no original images or content that would pursuade the prospective student that the lineage of what they teach is legitimate.

Also, I have a copy of the Fujiyama dojo newsletter from 1995 that I got at a YKKF event in Canada (of which Mr. Del Cueto and this group were/are a member of). Interestingly, they had a small section announcement for Sogawa Kazuoki of the Saigo-ha and seem to enjoy some kind of friendship with him.

There is also an interview with Ichikawa Yoshinori (the headmaster) in which Ichikawa gets defensive about his son and students doing research into his family/training history. The interviewer also points out that the scrolls that Ichikawa has are mostly different from those awarded by Sokaku. However, the interviewer later says that the kaishaku soden that Ichikawa apparently has is similar to that of those issued by Sokaku (interesting since they seem to misunderstand the meaning of this scroll).

Ms. Ayako Yamamoto also contributed a short article about ethics in this issue. Over all, there is some good content in the newsletter, and the students and teachers appear to be sincere. The question with this group really lies with their claims to authenticity. If they have old scrolls that pre-date WWII, why don't they let someone like Stan Pranin and other DR scholars inspect them?

FWIW,

[O'Neill]

I was reading an article in furyu and enjoyed an article by a female instructor of daito ryu. The artlicle was on nikkajo and her last name was Yammamoto, and she is a member of the rengokai. Is this group a well known legit group? If so, I'd like to hear more about them.

[O'Neill]

Is this a known teacher of Daito ryu ? Hideo Hoga of the gidokai, supposedly a student of a M. Kikutaro? I forget where I got the name, it was written down and I just noticed it.

[O'Neill]

This was on the Fuji yama dojo page of the Daito ryu Rengokai.

[Nathan Scott]

It appears as if Mr. Del Cueto is also associated with a group led by Yamaue Keido, which held a symposium that included Roland Maroteaux. The photo below shows Del Cueto (left), Maroteaux (center) and someone named Cristian Laiber (right):

http://www.takeda.ro/images/senseimar.jpg

Interesting,

[Ron Tisdale]

I guess Elvis has NOT left the building...

:D

[Nathan Scott]

Interestingly, in the December 1993 "Inside Karate" magazine (with Don Angier on the cover), there is an article called "The Warrior's Voice - Profile of a Martial Arts Family", by Teruyo Hanzawa. The article is about the Nippon Karate-do Joshinmon Shorin ryu Federation (founded by Sho-Shihan [sic] Hoshu Ikeda), but mentions that Guillermo M. Del Cueto (Fuji-Yama dojo) in Ontario, Canada, and Maximo Roy Fernandez Rodroguez (Antillana de Acero Karate dojo) in Habana, Cuba, are (were?) members of this group - complete with photos of each.

The author mentions "As Ichikawa Sensei said to my dad, once the demonstration was over:...".

Ichikawa Yoshinori is the head of the Rengokai, so I don't know what connection he would have with this Karate group.

Regards,

[AAC]

Did someone say ELVIS?