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the Khazar Kid
25th February 2002, 20:25
What is the oldest style of Koryu Jujutsu?

Jesse Peters

Walker
25th February 2002, 22:56
Sumo

Kevin Geaslin
25th February 2002, 23:56
I believe the oldest Koryu Jujutsu is the Takenouchi-ryu, but I'm probably wrong.:confused:

wmuromoto
26th February 2002, 03:38
If you included all grappling methods, then the sport of sumo is the oldest, since it claims to have originated in the legendary Age of the Gods. More historically, the Takeuchi (Takenouchi)-ryu claims to be the oldest, and if one appends "surviving" to this, it is probably true.

However, in the ryu's own scrolls, it says something to the effect that "...there are other <grappling> ryu. To study all of them is to be like a dog on a leash running around a post. You will go nowhere." In other words, the ryu's own documents admits that there were other grappling arts extant at the time of the ryu's founding. The Jikiden-ryu grappling methods may have predated the Takenouchi-ryu, but it has since long disappeared, save for possibly some techniques that Otake sensei of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu is reported to have attempted to reconstruct.

In all probability, the Takenouchi-ryu was one of many that sprang up very early on, but it is the only one of the early jujutsu ryu to have survived, and then became a major influence on subsequent jujutsu and yawara ryu and ryuha.

Wayne Muromoto

Ellis Amdur
26th February 2002, 06:36
Hey Wayne -

The whole question of the Jikiden Ryu aka Muso Jikiden Ryu is interesting. I've got a copy of a makimono from the 17th century, and the lineage is really dubious. Choisai Ienao is listed as the 7th headmaster, and Araki Mujinsai as the 11th. The 10th, Fujiwara Katsuzane is in the Araki Ryu lineage, but this name is unknown outside Araki Ryu. A lot of the others in the lineage are also "names" from other ryu. I have not heard of any really old makimono from this ryu, only ones that are much later dated. It is my guess that it was an Edo school that tacked together a lineage with some prominent people to give it credibility.

As for Otake Risuke 'reconstructing' Jikiden Ryu, I am not contradicting you, but I would be very surprised. Otake has stated often that he opposes "reconstruction" of kata or techniques - even in his own ryu. I'd be astonished if he tried to reconstruct that of another ryu, even one with claim of the Choiisai in the lineage.

I think the best way to consider this subject is that Takenouchi ryu bears the same relationship to close combat schools (grappling with weapons, etc.) as TSKSR does to kenjutsu. Not necessarily the first, per se, but the first that "took hold" and thereby became the paradigm for future schools.

Finally, as you know, but probably others don't, Takenouchi Ryu was, in the Meiji period, one of the very strongest schools at freestyle grappling. They began to "lose," as I recall, when IPPON on a throw designated the victor. The Takenouchi Ryu strategy was often to take the fall and simply continue into a lock or break, using the momentum of the throw to add power to their counter technique.

Best

Ellis Amdur

fifthchamber
26th February 2002, 17:00
Hello all,
Forgive my ignorance on this matter but where would a Ryu-Ha such as the TSKSR (Or maybe the Kashima Shinryu..)fit into this equation?
As they are the oldest extant school over all and do feature Yawara (I believe. Source; Donn Draeger's Classical Bujutsu/Budo) in their system would they not also have a claim to the oldest proven Jujutsu type techniques? (Despite the others named above...Sumo et al).
Or is it because they are a Sogo-Bujutsu and not a specifically Jujutsu based school (Not that the Takenouchi Ryu is mind you..But you know what I mean..), Or that they do not actively teach the Yawara? (I thought it was in the Ura portion of the syllabus but I am not sure). Or was it added at a later date?
Sorry if the questions answer is blindingly obvious but while there are such knowledgeable people in the post I thought I had to ask.
Help appreciated..
Abayo..

wmuromoto
26th February 2002, 18:13
Hi all...

Ellis, you are probably right per the Jikiden-ryu and Otake sensei. I was writing from the top of my head trying to recall a series of pictures from one of Draeger's books that shows Otake sensei doing some Jikiden-ryu jujutsu, and don't remember whether it was in the book or what Draeger had said once regarding it...It may have been garbled in my mind/Draeger's take on how Otake himself may have noted that the Jikiden-ryu may have been an Edo-period construct, in spite of its lineage...

The Japanese are not without their hyperbole. My sensei's dojo is in his front yard (way up on a hillside) but he put up a big metal kanban declaring that the Takeuchi-ryu is "Japan's oldest kobudo" without any of the caveats that should accompany it; i.e., maybe the oldest SURVIVING kobudo in the KANSAI area THAT WE KNOW OF, but maybe it wouldn't have fit. Then again, I'm not too embaressed by it because you can barely see the sign because of the overgrown trees and weeds that grow around it, and the declaration is somewhat obscured by a bunch of characters also declaring that he also does landscape architecture for a fee, teaches shakuhachi, Eishin-ryu and Shizen-ryu, and if you call this toll free number...

Seriously, yes, if we go beyond the hype, one could say that, yes, the T-ryu has a pivotal place in the development of the ryuha system in grappling and close quarter weaponry, like how the systems that claim to be from Hayashizaki Junsuke (the "founder of iai," so-called in a test I had to take for a dan ranking in ZNKR iaido) is actually an influential but probably not original root source of iai.

I did hear that our ryu was involved in freestyle grappling in the Edo Period up to the Bakumatsu and a little later. Your anecdote of the ryu moving away because of the ippon thingie sounds right. I was once told that in one of the last matches, a Takeuchi-ryu exponent (can't remember his name) met a Kodokan judo person, under the evolving judo style shiai rules. I think he was Yamashita, but I'm not sure...Anyway, the judoka threw the t-ryu guy with a clean seioi nage. The judge immediately called it an ippon, but then the judoka staggered and fell, clutching his arm. The t-ryu guy used the throw and momentum to dislocate the judo guy's arm in mid-throw. So the judge had to correct himself and declare a hikiwake, a draw.

Another story I was told was that Kano sensei was impressed with the grappling methods displayed by a lot of Kansai jujutsu people, so when he went to Kyoto, he got a lot of them together to consult with him on developing more newaza techniques for Kodokan judo, which was turning into a national, umbrella sport. A picture I saw in a book about Meiji and Taisho era martial arts shows Kano in front of the old Kyoto Butokuden, surrounded by several jujutsu masters, about three of four of whom belong to the t-ryu or related t-ryu ryuha.

I think Kano's genius was he was able to get a lot of jujutsu guys on committees and they would add to the potpouri of grappling knowledge of judo. He also didn't set himself up as a soke of a new "style." Rather, he made judo more like a sportive, open-ended national pastime, which allowed for innovation in randori freestyle grappling. The koryu guys either went off and just did kata geiko, or tried to maintain kata and randori, or switched over entirely, I think. I remember meeting the son of the current Hontai Yoshin-ryu soke, and he laughed when I showed such an interest in their ryu. He said he taught judo on alternate days, and while he enjoyed HTY, he called it an "antique," then offered to take me and my HTY friend, Stephan Fabian, out drinking. Fabian passed for that night because he knew that meant we'd have ended up under a table in a sakaba passed out on booze and I needed to catch an early train the next morning. Still, what I saw of their kata geiko was impressive.

For others, I don't mean to sound like I'm dissing koryu grappling. I've done it long enough to have a great appreciation for it, especially for my own ryu. But there are a lot of things to be said for randori style training as well, as Ellis has mentioned in other threads. I did judo for nigh on 15 years before I had to call it quits, but it has served me very, very well in kata geiko style training simply because things seem to "fit" a lot better. For my money, if I had all the time in the world and wasn't working at a job that requires sometimes 12-hour days, I'd really recommend a combination of kata geiko and randori-style free grappling, be it kumite, randori, etc., or similar methods that offered the same advantages of learning how to move from technique to technique spontaneously, to "feel" the opponent, and to improvise one's techniques based on an unplanned and oppositive partner.

Anyway, my two cents' worth. Ellis: I'm finally getting my head back together (months of reflection, walking and jogging) and will try, really try, to put together the next issue featuring you-know-who soon...

Wayne Muromoto

Ellis Amdur
26th February 2002, 18:18
Ben -

1) From ancient times, Japanese did competitive grappling - stand up, without a ring, similar to Mongolian wresting.
2) At a certain point, a ring was added - sumo.
3) As all Japanese men probably did this (pretty close to the most fun thing a man can do in a vertical posture), it naturally affected close combat - you come to grips, you know what to do, in an inchoate way. Dump your enemy, and stab them or beat them to death with a rock.
4) Naturally, when koryu systems began to develop, some decided to study parameters of combat at body--to-body range - almost always, with the idea that one would have weapons, or if disarmed, (desparately fighting against someone still armed). This method of combat had a number of names - koshi no mawari, kogusoku, torite, etc. etc. Different ryu were either more or less interested in this aspect. TSKSR, although it has yawara, is questionable as far as it's history - in my opinion. The techniques I have seen photos of, and in my discussions with members of the ryu about this syllabus are stand-up generic armlocks, not all that different from Kiyose Nagae's "Jujutsu" or similar stuff. I believe/guess that this was a later addition to the ryu. Kashima Shin Ryu also has that look to me - it seems more like a self-defense application. I may be incorrect here, but it is my understanding that Kashima Shin Ryu has been willing to tinker with the syllabus, as needed, to ensure they will always win, and for 400 years, one was concerned more with fights, duels and the like than battlefield combat.
5) Anyway, some schools began to emphasize close-combat as a specialty. Takenouchi Ryu, if not the first, was the most significant. Just like there were kenjutsu schools before TSKSR, there were schools that empasized close-combat, particularly with hand-held weapons before Takenouchi Ryu. But in each case, these two ryu were paradigms, and set the stage, so to speak.


In sum, the split between these schools was not originally that vast. TSKSR and Takenouchi Ryu, for examples, are BOTH sogo bujutsu. The distinction really is between schools that prefered not to get their clothes sweaty and dirty and those who didn't mind. In other words, some schools always tried to manipulate spacing so that they would be at effective cutting range and the enemy not: other schools tried to manipulate spacing so that they could physically control the enemy to cut and stab them in close. This aspect of things continued to develop until one had self-defense systems that centered around grappling. these came to be called jujutsu, a word that began to be applied to schools that did grappling, as a generic term, even if that is not how they referred to things themselves.


With respect

Ellis Amdur

Earl Hartman
26th February 2002, 18:23
Wayne:

Shizen Ryu?

Also, I liked your comments re: the similarity in approach between Takeuchi Ryu and Nagao Ryu. Takeuchi Ryu sounds very cool.

Cady Goldfield
26th February 2002, 18:26
Glad to hear you're going to print another issue of U-know-What. Some of us have been anxiously waiting with our subscriptions in limbo. Welcome back, Wayne.

Brently Keen
26th February 2002, 21:44
Ditto what Cady said!

Brently Keen

Arman
26th February 2002, 22:31
Mr. Amdur-

Thanks for taking the time to post and answer some questions. One aspect of this whole koryu grappling lineage (and not just grappling, I suppose) that is troubling to me is the question of martial degradation once the Edo period began. As Draeger has pointed out with, I believe, some evidence, the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate resulted in a gradual decline of the martial arts as combat arts.

How are we to adequately account for the transition of grappling styles from an era of incessant warfare to one of enforced peace? In other words, what do we use as analytic tools to discern the difference between pre-Edo and post-Edo martial curriculum within a particular ryu (especially where one might not admit to any significant changes)? Or, is this even really possible? It seems a critical question if we are really going to talk about the development of koryu grappling arts. (Maybe this should be a new post)

Anyway, thanks for any input.

Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Ellis Amdur
27th February 2002, 00:14
Arman - (you all caught me on a day that I have to be in front of the computer all day, so I keep escaping online - hell, as long as I get my report finished before midnight).

O.K. Your question.
REALLY OLD SCHOOLS
1) The oldest schools almost surely have sets in which the better armed person wins. (ie.,1) tanto against unarmed person - tanto kills 2) standing person walks up, kicks kneeling person in the head, they try to block, and their elbow is snapped and they are pinned and killed 3) One comes up behind a standing person and slams them to the ground from behind, and stomps on their head
2) There is also, in such ryu, sets in which the superiorly armed individual is countered, BUT, they are usually advanced sets. As if to say, "all right, since you asked, you are lying on your back, and a guy straddles you to stab you in the throat. Given you will probably die, what should you do anyway."
3) There is usually gokui sets in which you learn how to best kill someone while in the superior position (like straddling them - where and how should one should REALLY stab. And these last have stabbing techniques, for example, that the counters you learned in #2 will not work. PERIOD. )
These sets are usually part of a ryu in which weaponry still plays a very large part - sword, naginata, spear. It would be my guess that similar training would occur in most modern military. One learns all sorts of things using projectile weapons, and probably spends a rather brief module considering what to do if, God forbid, it comes to bayonets in the dark.

Other sets, which could be "indoors," are really for assassination or taking prisoners (for example, both Araki Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu have sets to take somebody unaware or worse while serviing them food.) Note that there was no particular squeamishness about deploying a weapon indoors either. The technique is far less important than the kiai - how can one organize oneself that you really do mentally disarm a wary individual.

The posture of most of these techniques will be standing or Iidori - on knees and balls of feet. If they are in seiza, something drastically has changed. Iidori is NOT to "strengthen the hips." It is a simulation of being on the ground, on all fours, so to speak.

SCHOOLS IN TRANSITION
This is my term for a school that really expanded in the Edo period. Takenouchi Ryu is, I believe one, but an example that I am more familiar is Kiraku Ryu. This school comes from the Toda Ryu, and the oldest sets are kogusoku, I believe - 'battlefield" grappling with weapons. The school has a lot of weapons, including the chigiriki (chain-and-staff), bo, kusarigama, sword, etc. In mid Edo, they added whole sets of techniques they explicitly called jujutsu - and they are, as I recall, more self-defense oriented, and some of them are empty hand vs. empty hand. They also have a lot of counters against short sword/knife - this curriculum expanded as this was a very likely type of combat in the towns, particularly vs. non-bushi.

Among the kind of techniques you see are blocks of overhand strikes, still using particular "fists" that are really only suited to hit a pinned opponent, countered with a block, lock and throw. (BTW - that's why karate, when it hit Japan in the 1920's was so revolutionary. Jujutsuka did not really know, for the most part, how to "box." The kempo component was largely very unsophisticated, and really didn't practice against someone who was bobbing and weaving - it wasn't needed anyway, in earlier times).

It was during this time that people started to do free-style grappling as well, just as people started to do kendo like practice. In the Sengoku period, learning to "chain" grappling or other techniques was, I believe, less important. Chip Armstrong's description of training for war in Koryu Books I, describes the effectiveness of pure kata training in this regard. it is my belief that one learned to get a responsive body, chaining standing techniques through sumo, and this would transfer as well as anything. On the ground, one wanted to pin and stab as quickly as possible. Takenouchi Ryu probably had the most sophisticated chaining within kata, however, going attack to counter to counter at times.

EDO JUJUTSU
As the Edo period progressed, in many ryu, weaponry, particularly that least relevant to the day, was dropped. Spear, naginata went first, as did chained weapons, and then sword. Remaining would be short sword/tanto and an expanded empty hand curriculum, again with most of the scenarios countering superior force. Examples would be Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu as one developed for this purpose, and Kito Ryu as one which devolved into this (used to have an array of weaponry). You will also see a lot of seiza, as opposed to iidori, and more and more standing techniques.

DAITO RYU
Let me really go out on a limb and briefly put my views on Daito Ryu in this. And these views are not about "does it work in the octogon, or on the street," etc., - solely about historical provenance. The organization, the focus on elaborations of empty-handed combat, none of this can possibly be of a period of history that some claim - much less 1000 years old. The idea of "inside the palace" defense also doesn't make sense, as that presupposes that enemies, too, will not want to offend their victim by shedding blood. If you are intent on killing the Aizu lord, do you think that you will care if you break the rules on drawing a weapon inside the palace? A ten year kenjutsu ka against a 10 year unarmed aiki man? Armed man wins almost all of the time. Maybe not against Takeda, or Ueshiba in the garden, but this story presupposes a whole palace SWAT squad of empty-handed martial geniuses. It seems to me that were I concerned about assassination, I'd want my folks to be prepared for people who DIDN't obey the rules. (An example of this is Masaki Ryu - the original manrikigusari was wrapped in cotton and sewn black silk, and stuffed in the belt. Someone makes a move with a dagger, for example, and they suddenly get a chunk of iron in their temple. Far better than a joint lock, no matter how skilled - and far more sure of success as well).Daito Ryu's particular concentration (proved in that it had to incorporate/associate with OTHER ryu such as Onoha Itto Ryu assoc. with it for weaponry, meaning it didn't have it's own sogo bujutsu component), indicates that it was, I believe, the truly amazing creation of Takeda, a man who was able to find the line in almost any configuration he got into with another person and "make a technique" out of it. The MOKUROKU got created by the note-takers - his son for example, who organized all he passed on. Again, as I am aware that, for some reason, this subject gets everyone awash with prickly heat, I'm answering a question about recognizing age of method through looking at the techniques. I am not postulating if Daito Fighto is Mighto or Lighto.

IN WHAT CONTEXT IS KORYU GRAPPLING "WORKABLE?"
Finally, lest there be some misunderstanding, one that often comes up when one compares "warfare-oriented" arts or "self-defense arts", I am also not postulating as some koryu wankers have, that koryu jujutsu is inherently "stronger" than more modern systems. I think an intact old system would be better to prepare one for a 16th century battlefield, and that some of those techniques transfer very well into modern times. (I think that for the military, there are aspects of some kogusoku ryu which would transfer quite quickly, with some relatively simple adaptation, to the difference in equipment warn by the soldier. Again, that would be a very small part of a modern soldier's needs - hand-to-hand combat is not, for good reasons, the major focus of training of the modern soldier. )

Given, however, that one doesn't start with a spear, sword etc, and find oneself in a melee situation, then empty handed skills and real "wrestling-type grappling" is far more important than it was in medieval times. Were one to get in a configuration (hand-to-hand on the ground, perhaps trying to deploy a weapon) similar to that in kogusoku, it would either be a police situation or some sort of civilian fight. And the set up for that would be far different than spear against naginata both jammed in the mud, two or more bodies against each other and all toppling and then grabbing to pin and stab. Instead, it would be in a nearly or totally empty hand context - a "fight" or an "arrest"- requiring, therefore, much more skill in the wrestling aspect of close combat - ie., judo, sambo, BJJ, etc. In other words, I believe that were one really intending to be prepared to use the techniques one learned in kogusoku-type arts, they would be part of an outcome, NOT of COMBAT with hand-held weapons, but more likely sudden close-range fighting. For this context, modern grappling systems are necessary to learn to make the old stuff work just as skill with the sword, spear etc., were necessary to make old school grappling even conceivable in the Sengoku period..


With respect

Ellis Amdur

wmuromoto
27th February 2002, 00:56
Hi Ellis,

Like you, I'm chained to the computer today and should really be doing some work, but I need to take a break now and then.

I will second your opinion on the relative effectiveness of koryu systems. It's more a matter of application and situation. One could argue that in the Edo Period, many of the martial systems lost their "effectiveness," yes, but then again, by the beginning of the Edo Period, guns had become used widely on the battlefield, and with about 200 years of no civil war to speak of (save for peasant uprisings and the like), many martial schools simply changed to fit the times, and "jujutsu" developed into unarmed self defense methods and for contests, albeit pretty rough contests.

I can't speak for other ryu, but it's pretty clear in the kata of the Takeuchi-ryu that you have layers of accretion (sp?) of kata. You have some kogusoku methods which are clearly for combat on the battlefield, when you lost your sword and are rolling in the muck and the enemy is doing his best to chop you into pieces. Then there's the usual "walk around the corner and whack 'em upside the head before he knows you're attacking" (much like what Earl mentioned in regard to the Nagao-ryu) to subdue a criminal, and then there's the toh-shihade, toride, kumi-uchi and other forms which I really think came later, because some of their kata only make sense in terms of a limited response encounter, like a contest, wrestling match, or dealing with a drunk relative.

One night I asked if we had any "warm up" exercises because jumping right into throws in the middle of winter was hell to my Hawaii temperment. My sempai led me through a series of warm ups that had become since a kind of set ritual for our classes since I the time I asked. But they were suspiciously modern-ish, so I asked him if it was a kind of kihon. The sempai said heck, no, I wanted warm ups so he gave me warm ups, directly from his college rugby club. We ain't got no warm ups, he basically concluded. The kata remained the same, but things around them changed to fit the times. When I returned a couple years ago, I found my sensei leading the class through some warm ups and I suspect they came not from the divine inspiration of the founder some 500 odd years ago, but from the rajio taiso (radio exercise programs) of a couple years past.

There's something to be said about innovations and modernization, including pop-top beer cans, cable TV, and spam musubi.

IMHO, different ryu will have different responses to the question of age and "relevence." The Takeuchi-ryu, with its array of different kata, is only one way that a ryu struggled through the generations.

Wayne Muromoto

wmuromoto
27th February 2002, 01:02
Daniel,

I'm not sure about your claim that koryu jujutsu concentrates against "linear tsuki." Most of the strikes one defends against, at least in the Takeuchi-ryu, are against uraken from different angles. The only linear tsuki I know of are dealing with knife and sword thrusts.

I haven't yet seen one kata in our ryu that deals with a karate-like linear tsuki per se. The notion of a strike like that probably only entered Japanese koryu attention when karate was introduced. I do know that some of my sempai have adapted some methods to deal with such tsuki, as well as for boxing jabs, etc., but it's not part of the established kata; they are variations and self-developed additions.

Uchikomi...Do you mean overhead angular attacks like in aikido type striking? That, too, is rarely seen in my ryu, at least, unless you're talking about a strike done with a sword. The term is a bit confusing to me because in judo uchikomi means practice throws, not any punch or strike.

Wayne Muromoto

Ellis Amdur
27th February 2002, 01:36
Wayne, you got my one point, far better than I!

Daniel -
Can't speak for other ryu, because, as you know, everyone's got their own ideas, all the way from "intangible cultural treasure" that should never be changed (evidence to the contrary that it already has) to grotesque mongrel systems (one branch of a ryu with legitimate successor, to remain nameless, incorporated karate into their kogusoku - that was an ugly dog that don't hunt, don't show and don't sh*t outdoors.

Rather than reinvent the wheel (Araki Ryu octogon grappling!), we have an ongoing informal training process to incorporate the elements of grappling and pugilism that will be required for civiliian life in, say, a mugging, based on every member's strong background in modern grappling and/or muay thai. But it is really about adaptation and simplification - using only what works for the context we are concerned about. For example, no closed fist to a bony area. A consideration of the enemy having a weapon, and how to put him down and out fast. We certainly don't make formal kata! It's more the idea of sparring with certain parameters in mind. (I use to have a member of the ryu who was in law enforcement, and I recall grappling with him him or I wearing his gun belt, trying to unholster the gun - either owner or taker - etc.) And if we don't have people living the context, then we don't imagine the situation. Having no one in the military or law enforcement currently, we aren't studying those parameters - that's another form of budo wanking - assuming that because one has skill in one area, it crosses over in professions one doesn't work or live.

The largest question is, if the knowledge is already established elsewhere, learn it there - why waste time in recreating it in probably far inferior fashion? Araki Ryu, for example, has no need of a combat shooting section. What possibly could one add to something research by millions - people who have, unlike me, "seen the elephant."

I don't favor taking old kata and changing them to fit modern times. Instead, if there is an consideration that fits the basic assumption of the ryu (they considered the possibility of "stret fights" in Meiji Araki Ryu, so why not Heisei America Araki Ryu? It would be a pathetic death to tackle someone and forget that they might have a knife, thus getting stabbed when one achieve "the mount" or kesa gatame.) In sum, new kata? Dubious. Araki Ryu set (zanshin, predatory intent) to make the modern context work? Sure. But it's got to fit the basic parameters of the ryu. I can't imagine doing the same with Toda Ha Buko Ryu naginatajutsu doing the same. In such a case, one pursues the study elsewhere.

With respect

Ellis Amdur

Daniel Lee
27th February 2002, 02:02
Ellis,

It must be a lot easier to apply this for a man of your experience! I appreciate your words about while not changing or making up kata, having different training that addresses situations through the ryugi's artform/set. You post explained the details of some things seen in Japan from the eyes of one budo bum - thank you!

Daniel Lee

Ellis Amdur
27th February 2002, 02:34
Daniel -

Truth be told, what makes not only any innovation, but worthwhile training, possible is I've got three guys (one my age), two young, all huge, and each far better than me in some aspect or aspects of hand-to-hand combatives. Their skills give them enough spine and general knowledge that, at least in the area of body-to-body, they know what works and what doesn't. I can't bullsh*t with an fictitious explanation/imagination of "what the old warriors meant by this." Although far less so in weaponry (they not bringing this training in with them), in the grappling/pugilism area and even in the old grappling-oriented kata, we really can pool resources. Things are far simpler, honed down and stronger due to students present, and one or two no longer with me. We really do have a ryu, in the old sense of an organization of strong members, rather than a group of people spoonfed by one, supposedly skilled, person.


with respect,

Ellis Amdur

Arman
27th February 2002, 15:18
Mr. Amdur and Mr. Muramoto-

Thanks for the response and insight. Also, Mr. Amdur, the basic analytic method you provided is very helpful and illuminating. The significant difference in focus of pre-Edo kata vs. transition and post-Edo kata were unknown to me, as well as the distinction you describe between true idori and seiza kata (which is exactly why I asked the question). You know, sometimes you ask the right person, and you get a really, really good answer. Thank you.

As for the Daito-ryu, you are right about people getting their panties all in a wad about nearly everything to do with this art. In any event, I am one of those who happen to agree with your assessment regarding the historical lineage. We have no reliable historical documentation available to adequately determine the extent to which Sokaku Takeda didn't create the Daito-ryu. We do, however, have the curriculum (as it was codified by his son, Tokimune). As far as this goes, all I can say (and obviously, I am no expert) is that the Daito-ryu at least has far more in common with Edo-era koryu than post-Meiji/gendai arts. In fact, your description of Edo-era koryu (especially the part on idori and seiza) really seem to place the roots of Daito-ryu (as transmitted by Takeda) in this period, rather than earlier time-frames. (BTW, it is probably a good thing you clarified yourself regarding your aim as historical analysis through kata rather than, as you put it, "mighto or lighto." Who knows what that could have started. :rolleyes: )

Anyway, thanks again for your comments (I'm printing this out, btw, as it is the first real method anyone has provided me in response to this question, and I want to be able to refer back to it).

Hopefully I'll catch you on here again soon.

Respectfully,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Arman
27th February 2002, 15:31
Just wanted to let you know that I am looking forward to your demo at the aiki expo - any idea what you plan on doing?

What with you and Mr. Threadgill participating, this is going to be one great event. BTW, did I mention that it's in Las Vegas - Viva!

Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Ellis Amdur
27th February 2002, 15:50
The demos are to be five or six minutues. Probably doing Araki Ryu. We'll probably figure out what to do at the last minute. I've been known to teach a new kata backstage and that's what we end up doing. (I end up having more fun than my student, that's for sure:)

BEst

Ellis Amdur

Earl Hartman
27th February 2002, 19:02
Just wanted to say that all Nagao Ryu seated kata are done in what Ellis refers to as the "idori" posture, where you sit on the balls of your feet with your knees on the ground. There is no seiza in Nagao Ryu. The techniques simply wouldn't work, since it would take too long to get moving.

Also, re: Wayne's comment about "walk around the corner and whack him upside the head", there are a number of kata in Nagao Ryu where you are walking down the street with another fellow (sort of a "yukizure" type situation) and you attack the guy from behind with no warning. In these cases the attacker wins.

Picking up on something that Ellis said, it seems to me that the real heart of any ryu is the spirit which infoms it, of which the kata are simply the physical manifestation. There is a saying in Nagao Ryu (hope I'm remembering this correctly, don't have my books in front of me): "Shori wa sente ni ari", i.e., "He who strikes first wins." This bespeaks a certain mindset about fighting that is totally different from any idea of "self-defense" as it is commonly understood nowadays, and is very much at odds with the idea that the budo are "ways of peace", it seems to me. Nagao Ryu accepts the inevitability of a fight and devised, within its historical context, the best techniques to win such a fight. As such, it displays no concern whatsoever for the welfare of the "partner" (who is referred to not as "aite", but as "sashite", "he who stabs"); indeed, throws are structured so that the attacker will, if the technique is done as intended, be injured as severely as possible when he is thrown. This makes it impossible to have any kind of judo style randori.

I'm (more than) a little out of my depth here speaking with more experienced exponents of koryu jujutsu, but just thought I'd add my $0.02.

27th February 2002, 19:16
Ellis,

You're sure making me feel better. I don't know what the heck I'm going to do yet at the Aiki Expo demo. Arman doesn't lessen the pressure by mentioning me in the same sentence with people like you. I just hope I don't walk out there with my thumb up my tail end.

This thread is one of the best I have seen at e-budo in a while. It actually addressed a couple of things I've pondered for some time. When Takamura Sensei reorganized the SYR curriculum he emphasized the practise of tanto over sword in much the manner you described earlier. When I quizzed him about it he said he felt that tanto practise embraced the same basic SYR concepts as sword but in a way that was more practical to a present day practitioner. I kinda laughed at him while considering the "practical" nature of the tanto tachiai waza executed against an unarmed uchite. Practical......Hummm..... Well I do have several LEO & military guys that love the stuff. We still practise both long & short sword in offensive and defensive use against both an armed and unarmed uchite. I suppose these kata must have their roots in koryu. Interestingly some of these same kata capitalize on the weaknesses associated with the arm pits, neck and inner thigh areas as opposed to those targets of obviously later introduction.

So I guess we practise a mix of, older old, newer old, and post Edo kata. Mix in the semi - freestyle and freestyle practise at Chuden and Joden and thats where we are In Takamura ha SYR.

Maybe thats what I'll demo. Some tanto and ken tachiai no waza with some more easily recognizable jujutsu thrown in. God... the aiki bunnies are going to have a cow (Oop's - a veggie burger) when they see me fillet a guy with a tanto who attacks me unarmed.

Oh well.....

Tobs

cguzik
27th February 2002, 19:41
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
...
Maybe thats what I'll demo. Some tanto and ken tachiai no waza with some more easily recognizable jujutsu thrown in. God... the aiki bunnies are going to have a cow (Oop's - a veggie burger) when they see me fillet a guy with a tanto who attacks me unarmed.

Oh well.....

Tobs

Toby,

I think it would be quite beneficial for some of the demos to present a bit of contrast to the typical aiki bunny 'love your attacker' mindset. That, and watching the reactions could end up as enjoyable as the demo!

Chris

Chuck.Gordon
27th February 2002, 20:09
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
God... the aiki bunnies are going to have a cow (Oop's - a veggie burger) when they see me fillet a guy with a tanto who attacks me unarmed.

Toby,

I wouldn't short the aikido folks too much. I know a few of 'em who are positively bloodthirsty. A good friend of mine who teaches Ki Society aikido in Houston gets a real gleam in his eye when I hand him a tanto or a tessen. He grinned manically and said "Don't tell my sensei, but I LOVE this stuff!" ...

And I know more than a few aikido bunnies who are closet koryu addicts. More than a few doing some kind of iai and several taking up Shinto Muso Ryu jo lately, too.

Emily says aikido is a gateway drug for the serious (koryu) stuff ...

I've taught some decidedly un-aikido-ish stuff at each of the four Aikido List Seminars (http://www.aikido-l.org/seminars/) and folks there, from all different walks of aikido life, have had a blast.

Here's an odd thought for you: I'm the only teacher to have had a slot at all four or those seminars despite the fact that I do not teach aikido. I think you'll be a big hit.

Good luck!

Chuck

PS: Emily Dolan, formerly of Austin, TX, says tell you 'Howdy!'

Brently Keen
27th February 2002, 20:55
I think some bunnies might be able to accept that you jujutsu guys don't love your attacker(s), but gosh Toby you're going to be the attacker and fillet one of your students?

I seriously doubt those aiki-do bunnies are going to approve of that (I can't say that they'll try to stop you though - since you'll have a tanto and all)!

"Veggie burger", is that what you guys in Texas call "filet mi guy"? Wait'll the peace, love, and oatmeal types hear about what's really in those things eh?

Whatever happened to the group hug approach?

Brently Keen

27th February 2002, 20:56
Hey Chuck,

First, let me say for the record, before I get too much hate mail, that not all aikidoka are "aiki bunnies" Aiki bunnies are a distinct sub set of aikidoka similar to but separate from Ellis's "koryu wankers".

My favorite story about an aiki bunny concerns an aikido guy coming into my old karate dojo and asking me if we meditated, and if so, for how long? I politely answered yes, we did meditate but explained that it was impossible to tell him how long. You see I explained, the length of ones meditation was proportional to how hard you got pounded at the beginning of the meditation experience.

Yuk Yuk Yuk....

I know many strong aikidoka I wouldn't want to tangle with. Chuck Clark, Dave Nettles, Big Al, Heck, even my good friend Pat Hendricks has really put the hurt on me in the past. During an evening of shooting photos in my studio, (Pat's ukes in just minutes had ice packs all over them.) I had to fill in as uke for a bunch of the pictures. Man, the next day I just wanted to stay in bed. ( Ever seen the book"Teachers on teaching"?) Yeah, thats me on the book cover, upside down on the other end of a Pat Hendricks shihonage. Stevie Seagal should be so lucky!

(Hi Emily)

Toby

CEB
27th February 2002, 20:59
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
Ellis,

God... the aiki bunnies are going to have a cow (Oop's - a veggie burger) when they see me fillet a guy with a tanto who attacks me unarmed.



I remember when visited Aikido dojo one time. We were practicing against tsuski done with a wooden knife. I used a variation of sankajo where I filleted the attacker with his own knife. The sensei wasn't pleased and scolded me by saying "We don't kill people in Aikido". But I was scolded in a most polite manner. I love Aikido people, they are so nice.

Walker
27th February 2002, 22:40
Maybe thats what I'll demo. Some tanto and ken tachiai no waza with some more easily recognizable jujutsu thrown in. God... the aiki bunnies are going to have a cow (Oop's - a veggie burger) when they see me fillet a guy with a tanto who attacks me unarmed.

Can we vote on who?
I say fillet Henry! :nin:

Ellis Amdur
27th February 2002, 23:18
One point in Earl's post caught my eye

indeed, throws are structured so that the attacker will, if the technique is done as intended, be injured as severely as possible when he is thrown. This makes it impossible to have any kind of judo style randori.
I tend to disagree with this, with all due respect, not only to yourself, but to a ryu which certainly has stood on some sturdy laurels for a long time without apparently any freestyle. Where you are spot on, Earl, is that one can certainly not have "judo style randori" when you are practicing deliberately to injure your partner - the techniques would have to be done kata fashion here.

However, judo, itself, deliberately alters many of the throws so that ukemi IS possible. One could easily choose to do makikomi on every throw so as to not incidentally but deliberately injure one's partner. Etc. Etc.

What I believe is that one can enhance one's skills in kata on the one hand and real life on the other with some degree of adapted freestyle. If one can get the kuzushi to throw someone in an injurious fashion, one can practice to, for example, dump them on their back, a la Kodokan. The problem would be if the randori got so interesting that the original intent was lost and it turned into a sport. (some would say this has occurred in judo).

For example, very occasional free-sparring with weapons (both bokken and shinai with head-and-hand protection) has proved invaluable (I remember looking at a Dog Brother's video and feeling a shudder of horrified nostalgia). But do it too much and most of us will want to score. We leap in, reach in, hyper-extend, and lo-and-behold, we just reinvented kendo. But done occasionally, as Wayne said earlier in regards to the contribution that judo has given his T-Rex (I mean T-ryu), I think it's required.

With Respect

Ellis Amdur

Earl Hartman
27th February 2002, 23:40
I guess what I meant to say was that if the technique is done as intended, then the likelihood of injury is quite high. So, kata training is the main method. Of course, one could, as you say, institute some sort of policy whereby the throws would be altered, or not finished off, so that no one would be hurt in some sort of controlled sparring. I'm certainly NOT denying that approach has merit, because I think it does. At any rate, I never trained like this and I don't recall anyone else doing it either. I think it would be very useful for advanced practitioners with the right attitude. Of course, the final kime of a lot of techniques involve crushing the other fellow's larynx, dislocating his shoulder, or breaking his arm, and that isn't done, needless to say. Everyone was very careful.

As a matter of fact, one of the tecniques of Nagao Ryu deals with how to counter a one-handed overhead sword strike. For the technique to work, you must get straight in directly under the blade and intercept the striking hand with your own hand, from which position the throw is done. It is, essentially, a kind of "muto dori". Everything depends on really sensing when and where the strike is coming and then having the stones to leap in directly under the blade. Only once this is accomplished does the defender execute the tenkan and the throw. If you try to evade, you will always get cut.

In kata, this is normally done using a boken or an iaito, but Shimeno Sensei would sometimes use a shinai, just to show his students that they really didn't understand the timing. They would, of course, always get hit. But he did it nicely, so no one got hurt.

So I suppose, yes, that this could qualify as a controlled sparring method.

Who (or what) are the Dog Brothers?

Neil Yamamoto
27th February 2002, 23:58
www.dogbrothers.com

These guys really slam each other. Pretty intense hard contact with rattan weapons and empty hand stuff, mostly based on Filipino arts. Some body protection and of course head gear and goggles.

I've seen videos and them one time in California. "Ouch" is a good way to sum up the topic.

Earl Hartman
28th February 2002, 00:09
Neil:

Holy crap, what the **** was THAT?

wmuromoto
28th February 2002, 03:45
Ellis and all,

Interesting posts, worthy of b-s-ing over some beer and dried squid, surely, or at least having a mamasan at the local Okinawan bar make some grilled onigiri...That reminds me, it's about time I had a drink with an aikido pal of mine who knows every waitress in that izakaya...

Anyway; thanks for info about the Hontai Yoshin-ryu's more linear attacks. On reflection, when I observed the younger Inoue sensei's practice, I did see more straight line attacks than in my ryu.

In regards to adapting koryu to randori-like practice again and to note that they used to do a kind of randori, we used to sometimes put on kendo style bogu and have at each other with padded-tip bo. (It was "padded" only with a thin covering of leather.) It was kind of fun but after getting whacked (even with pulling our attacks) with an oak bo on the kote underside, where there's little protection, got to be a bit much after a while, so we students sort of wimped out after we all got black and blues on our wrists, legs and arms and went back to kata geiko. But that little bit of free sparring did bring things down to the nitty gritty and made us realize that a lot of fancy stuff is for naught, most of the time.

We didn't do much other sparring with weapons, probably as Ellis said, why reinvent the wheel? If you wanted to test reflexes with a sword, do kendo. For grappling, do judo or something like it, etc.

Wayne Muromoto

Neil Hawkins
28th February 2002, 09:38
Guys, great thread keep it going.

Two comments, first on throws, I have had this conversation many times with judoka and jujutsuan from more modern styles, they often have no idea that many of the throws they do were originally designed to land the guy on his head, sans ukemi.

It is good to hear others bringing it up, maybe we could start a new thread on these throws and the original application vs the randori style one. I usually teach the throw judo style but discuss the more dangerous application once the students are comfortable with the motion. Often the sabaki and irimi are the same, just the finish that changes.

Second on the Dog Brothers. As Earl says it needs to be controlled, I have seen some of the guys on the tapes taking chances that they never would if they weren't wearing padding to get in the hit. They will often take hits that would incapacitate them so they can get in range.

On the other hand, one of my instructors caught an intruder in his house, the guy had a knife, my instructor a tanbo (16 inches of hard wood). He struck the intruder with all his might on the wrist expecting to break it. The guy dropped the knife and was sebsequently subdued, but all he suffered was a very nasty bruise on the wrist.

Don't always rely that what you are doing is going to work as described in training, always have a plan B! :)

Regards

Neil

Dan Harden
28th February 2002, 15:41
Another good thread
Old, old, subject-but ever fresh eh?


Wayne writes
It was kind of fun but after getting whacked (even with pulling our attacks) with an oak bo on the kote underside, where there's little protection, got to be a bit much after a while, so we students sort of wimped out after we all got black and blues on our wrists, legs and arms and went back to kata geiko. But that little bit of free sparring did bring things down to the nitty gritty and made us realize that a lot of fancy stuff is for naught, most of the time.

We didn't do much other sparring with weapons, probably as Ellis said, why reinvent the wheel? If you wanted to test reflexes with a sword, do kendo. For grappling, do judo or something like it, etc.

*****************

While I agree with this in general. Free sparring with weapons does not have to be Kendo does it?
As you wrote, you tried the kata with Bokuto and got bruises and what not. We do the same with TSKSR kata. We occasionally put on Bogu and freestyle USING established tactics and techniques. When I see the play degenerating into tagging I stop them. Like you, we have found some interesting things and have formed opinions-But I have noticed that with some-what they thought was a useless technique years ago they now can make work quite well. The problem wasn't "IT" it was them. Although it simply "just isn't done" in the art by anyone that I have heard of- I have found the crucible of freestyle if done in moderation can remain an effective training tool. Being continually presented with a Kiri-oroshi to Okkachi dachi or te-ura in an open Maai, while "knowing" the potential is one thing- to have to close it when you don't know what's coming and make Kuzushi is another level of training. One that I find works in freestyle.
I say do it all. Cuts, Kata, Shiai and Iai. Train outdoors over roots and in shadowed moonlight. Why not be a little crazy while maintaining a syllibus? Cut in snow. Then drink Sake.... and tell your wife that you're not nuts.

Same with Koryu jujutsu in freestyle. I see no valid arguement for the kata having to necessarily de-generate due to the increased pressure of unexpected attack. If one practices due diligence that trap can be avioded easiy. I will agree with Earl that it can be dangerous. We have had several injuries. But half speed training with modern attacks that lead to the adept having to chain together techniques and flow responses will help to establish entering, set-ups and counters in a more freestyle manner. Upping the ante to fighting is a personal choice after that. The core of jujutsu- Kuzushi and follow ups with knives- is still valid today and will cross over into many venues. If the unlickly happened and the proverbial offal hits the fan I can't think of much that is more effective than a head butt while you are applying kuzushi with his duty rig and stabbing him in the kidney and neck.


Ellis makes some great points (as usual) on having the wisdom to not try and re-invent the wheel or kid ourselves into thinking we can be expert in all venues. There is a fine line between experimentation and foolishness. That said, some kata lend themselves quite well to modern combatives without any sort of stretch to get there and there are different groups of military doing just that.

Ellis
Good points on Daito Ryu. I won’t touch the history comments other than to say fair observations but the Jury is still out.
However, I wouldn’t consider the “Might-o or Light-o” view to be any fair indicator of what Daito Ryu people think. Unfortunately DR is experiencing a surge of popularity which will no doubt fade as the public searches in vain for the next “undefeatable” art (hopefully it will be Araki Ryu or some such thing...Ha Ha!).
Most of the commentary on its being some other-worldly supreme art, come from the outside looking in. Of those I know in the art-none have their heads in the clouds. Most come to it from other arts and as a result have healthy a respect for Judo, Takenouchi Ryu, Goju, Yanagi, BJJ,etc. etc. In fact one DR teacher I know of is well versed in Takenouchi Ryu, Judo and Daito ryu. Anyone would be VERY hard pressed to get him to offer an unbalanced view. Overall I think there are card carrying Budo-wankers everywhere, and in every art

The Dog brothers

The Dog brothers are really addressing some of the issues brought up in the thread. While no fan, I would offer the following observations. They have taken “technique” and pushed the limits, arriving at a crucible in which to explore the realities of theory. On the down side-if all you do is spar and beat each other up you’re going to arrive at a very narrow field of view. Fighting a fighter, and or mostly fighting a fighter in your own art, will lead to a false feed back loop. Not necessarily bad mind you- just limiting.
At some point in their careers I hope they are cataloging what they do-so that they have a teachable syllabus that does not require hospitalization. Yikes

Neil
You made some good points on the results of throws and the unexpectedness of encounters.
In that vein it is probably wise to keep a rather jaundiced eye toward all the wrist grabbing, joint locking, and throwing going on. The throws that are designed to have you land on your head and or flat on your back are very pragmatic from a front linear attack. So are certain entering chokes and binding neck locks. I disagree somewhat with the contention that someone raised that they are less effective. Seen to many concussions and knockouts in freestyle to doubt them.
The question of ukemi becomes paramount, as most people who will use these types of techniques are not going to be using them anytime soon on anyone who knows ukemi are they? The responses of the protagonist and the responses of the adept >TO< the input of his actions on his protagonist are going to be quite different than they are in a Dojo. Sometimes easier-sometimes harder. Perhaps the key in a civilian encounter is still one of control throughout the encounter. Specifically the shoulder-hip connection of Uke. Knives are fun, but not in that venue.


Cheers
Dan

Chuck.Gordon
28th February 2002, 15:57
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill

First, let me say for the record, before I get too much hate mail, that not all aikidoka are "aiki bunnies" Aiki bunnies are a distinct sub set of aikidoka similar to but separate from Ellis's "koryu wankers".

Agreed. Loved the 'KW' moniker, too.

I'll tell you about Usagi Ryu someday ... perferably over some good beer.

Yeah, thats me on the book cover, upside down on the other end of a Pat Hendricks shihonage. Stevie Seagal should be so lucky!

Heh! Emily pulled that off the bookshelf last night to show me. Looks like fun!

Amongst the finest American budoka I know are a handful of aikido folks, Dennis Hooker down in Orlando, Chuck in Tempe, Philip Akin in Toronto, and the late George Simcox of northern Virginia. All wonderful people and dedicated budo bunnies.

Not all aikido folks are spacey and not all koryu folks are enlightened. Wow. Whatta concept.

(Hi Emily)

We had the opportunity to train with a young fellow named Art who's been in your dojo a few times. He was in Indy on business and stopped by. Nice guy, very solid, very centered. Spoke highly of you and of Don Angier. Hope he gets back to town someday soon.

Chuck

Ben Reinhardt
28th February 2002, 17:54
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
Ben -

Snipping...

In sum, the split between these schools was not originally that vast. TSKSR and Takenouchi Ryu, for examples, are BOTH sogo bujutsu. The distinction really is between schools that prefered not to get their clothes sweaty and dirty and those who didn't mind. In other words, some schools always tried to manipulate spacing so that they would be at effective cutting range and the enemy not: other schools tried to manipulate spacing so that they could physically control the enemy to cut and stab them in close. This aspect of things continued to develop until one had self-defense systems that centered around grappling. these came to be called jujutsu, a word that began to be applied to schools that did grappling, as a generic term, even if that is not how they referred to things themselves.

With respect
Ellis Amdur

This whole discussion is fascinating !

The above paragraph really struck a chord with me. As a judoka, I right off thought of parallels in modern appraches to Judo. The first group, manipulate spacing to be at effective cutting range and enemy not is more similar to Japanese "style" of Judo, while the latter relates more to a close contact style of Judo (Russian and othes come to mind).

One strategy in a competition sense is to never allow your oppponent to get a superior grip or position by controlling the space via gripping and movement, and attacking as soon as such an advantage is gained. You never let your opponent get into position or at close contact range. Another strategy is to get close contact and use that to restrict your opponents range of movement, and apply to be be able to apply maximum power and levage via close contack and tight gripping.

Anyway, it's all fascinating. I love learning about the historical roots of Judo !

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
28th February 2002, 18:28
Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
One point in Earl's post caught my eye

I tend to disagree with this, with all due respect, not only to yourself, but to a ryu which certainly has stood on some sturdy laurels for a long time without apparently any freestyle. Where you are spot on, Earl, is that one can certainly not have "judo style randori" when you are practicing deliberately to injure your partner - the techniques would have to be done kata fashion here.

However, judo, itself, deliberately alters many of the throws so that ukemi IS possible. One could easily choose to do makikomi on every throw so as to not incidentally but deliberately injure one's partner. Etc. Etc.

snippage...

With Respect

Ellis Amdur

As a Judoka, I've taken many falls to my back area, hip, ribs, etc., that were of stunning impact, on good tatami, sometimes even spring loaded tatami. In those cases, had they been done on a solid surface, I'd have been out of the fight, period, regardless of the massive dose of adrenaline in my system. In fact, even on tatami, I was out of the fight for anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes. So the idea of regular Judo nage waza not being dangerous (as opposed to purposely throwing someone on their head, point of shoulder, etc.), doesn't hold much water with me. Add in the fact that one's opponent in a self defense situation is probably going to be caught totally unawares and have no idea how to protect themselves, and Judo randori practice takes on a whole new meaning. I've had to use regular Judo in unarmed self defense situations, and throwing the guy was so easy compared to another Judoka it was ridiculous.

In terms of protecting oneself against weapons via posture, postitioning, etc., regular Judo randori as I know it falls a bit short, as we don't use weapons in it. This is something Tomiki Sensei tried to address via Tomiki Ryu Aikido.

Regards,

Ben Reinhardt

Earl Hartman
28th February 2002, 18:36
Re: the Dog Brothers, looking at the stills reminded me VERY strongly of my experiences during high school in the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA), the mother of all subsequently founded Middle Ages recreationist groups. It was founded in Berkeley (where else?) in 1966 by a couple of medieval studies majors at Cal.

The main thing about the SCA was fighting, since whoever beat up all the other guys would be crowned King. So what we did was put on homemade "armor" (in the early days you were considered well armored if you had a sabre fencing mask, a pair of motorcycle gloves and a leather jacket or a gambeson made out of mattress padding) take up plywood shields and rattan swords, and then just beat the crap out of each other. Over the years the techniques became more sophisticated and the armor better and more authentic, and people learned to hit a LOT harder than in the early days. I nearly had my neck broken once (the SOB hit me from behind in a melee), got incredibly bruised up on a fairly regular basis, and broke my adversary's hands on a couple of occasions (not intentionally). Concussions were not uncommon, although the biggest danger was heat exhaustion when fat, overweight weekend warriors would put on all their gear in the middle of summer, take a few swings, and promptly collapse from dehydration. Eventually, broken hands became so common that blows to the hands and wrists were banned, and people learned to hit so hard that it was no longer legal to fight unless you had a helmet made out of 14 gauge steel at a minimum.

Anyway, it was a lot of fun in a loony sort of way. But we never called it "martial arts".

Arman
28th February 2002, 21:47
You're sure making me feel better. I don't know what the heck I'm going to do yet at the Aiki Expo demo. Arman doesn't lessen the pressure by mentioning me in the same sentence with people like you. I just hope I don't walk out there with my thumb up my tail end.

Toby - (Mr. Threadgill, Sensei Threadgill - man, I still don't know how to approach conversational etiquette on BBs),

Just do what Mr. Amdur (Ellis? - Geesh) does -> put the pressure on your uke.:)

Maybe thats what I'll demo. Some tanto and ken tachiai no waza with some more easily recognizable jujutsu thrown in. God... the aiki bunnies are going to have a cow (Oop's - a veggie burger) when they see me fillet a guy with a tanto who attacks me unarmed.

I can't wait. :D

Cheers,:toast:
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Dan Harden
28th February 2002, 22:57
deleted

CKohalyk
1st March 2002, 02:34
Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt


...the fact that one's opponent in a self defense situation is probably going to be caught totally unawares and have no idea how to protect themselves...



I have seen this idea a few times in this thread. I agree with Ben about the feeling of being plowed into the tatami and having to shake the little birdies out of your head after a good judo guy whips off a spectatular throw, but I tend to disagree with the whole "civilian doesn't know what's coming" viewpoint, which is rampant in a lot of modern so-called "self-defense" systems. Maybe it's the training mentality of koryu that "the other guy is always better than you," or maybe it's being in Japan where it is VERY LIKELY that the guy at the end of the bar eyeing you probably knows a thing or two. Heck, in my building back in Vancouver Canada there were 4 other blackbelts (I know "black" doesn't necessarily mean anything).

I think this "I am the only one who knows MA" mentality harkens back to the days of when jujutsu and judo (and other MAs) first struck Euro before (and during) the Wars. Any thoughts?


CKohalyk

Kit LeBlanc
1st March 2002, 17:10
Originally posted by CKohalyk


I have seen this idea a few times in this thread. I agree with Ben about the feeling of being plowed into the tatami and having to shake the little birdies out of your head after a good judo guy whips off a spectatular throw, but I tend to disagree with the whole "civilian doesn't know what's coming" viewpoint, which is rampant in a lot of modern so-called "self-defense" systems. Maybe it's the training mentality of koryu that "the other guy is always better than you,"
....

CKohalyk

Seems to me its a lot of koryu people that think nothing of the sort. Rather, they seem to think that the other guy is totally unprepared for THEM, because after all what they do survived the battlefield!

On E-Budo we have been treated to ludicrous ideas such as:

a) Not being able to be surprised because you can sense sakki from dojo training, and, after all, no one has ever been able to surprise them in the dojo,

b) That many of the throws and locks are SO dangerous that they cannot be practiced full force, or that the uke just HAS to throw himself in training or they would be devastating, and therefore when applied in actual circumstances they WILL end a fight, THAT's why it sometimes looks fake..but never fear, ITS REAL!!

c) That Judoka use modified techniques for safety, and will not know how to change them into more dangerous throws because what they do is mere sport, whereas the jujutsuka modify their techniques for safety, but since it's about battle, after all, they can easily revert to more combative forms which they never practice realistically

d) That a lawyer, or an academic, or an author, or a chef, has greater knowledge of "how things work" vis-a-vis combatives because of their experience in koryu, and without benefit of any service in the military, spec ops, or federal or other field law enforcement work, and maybe having had one or two actual physical altercations in their lives.

Sorry, just got up, sprained my ankle yesterday, and am just generally in a surly mood about this stuff...


:D

I should say that I have seen very little of that in this particular thread. Here we have people who have no need to buttress themselves with fantasy samurai warrior images...they are interested in said arts, but people like Ellis, and Wayne, and Earl and Dan seem to be much more grounded in reality. Probably comes from the fact that Ellis works in Crisis Intervention and often has to pick up the pieces after people do what they do with REAL violence, and Wayne has 15 years in Judo, where no illusions about how bad you are last very long, and Earl has had his ass handed to him by those "sport" kendo cops, and Dan has some Judo and worked in biker bars.

Thing is, at their very core, martial art, I think especially the koryu, is not about being invincible, and not surprisable, or having techniques that are just TOO dangerous...they are about FEAR. About being vulnerable, being afraid of being caught unawares, and havng techniques that just aren't working and getting worried because this guy is REALLY trying to kill you.

Why? Because in previous generations they had more than just their dojo experience and a few pushing and shoving matches to draw on. They watched their friends, brothers, and lovers die on a regular basis. And they knew that the next day they may face the very same thing.

Ben Reinhardt
1st March 2002, 19:18
Originally posted by CKohalyk


I have seen this idea a few times in this thread. I agree with Ben about the feeling of being plowed into the tatami and having to shake the little birdies out of your head after a good judo guy whips off a spectatular throw, but I tend to disagree with the whole "civilian doesn't know what's coming" viewpoint, which is rampant in a lot of modern so-called "self-defense" systems. Maybe it's the training mentality of koryu that "the other guy is always better than you," or maybe it's being in Japan where it is VERY LIKELY that the guy at the end of the bar eyeing you probably knows a thing or two. Heck, in my building back in Vancouver Canada there were 4 other blackbelts (I know "black" doesn't necessarily mean anything).

I think this "I am the only one who knows MA" mentality harkens back to the days of when jujutsu and judo (and other MAs) first struck Euro before (and during) the Wars. Any thoughts?
CKohalyk

The mentality of the koryu, at least in terms of battlefield stuff, is/was different from civilian self defense/combatives. I think it is good to be prepared for a skilled opponent who will not be surprised by whatever you do to defend yourself. However, I don't think most civilian situations will be against a trained fighter who expects another trained fighter. This has nothing to do with (I'm the only one who know MA mentality, I just think it's an accurate reflection of reality. I don't suggest that one take the attitude that the defender will have the only fighting skill in a confrontation. I just think it will usually end up that way.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
1st March 2002, 19:22
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc


snipping...

c) That Judoka use modified techniques for safety, and will not know how to change them into more dangerous throws because what they do is mere sport, whereas the jujutsuka modify their techniques for safety, but since it's about battle, after all, they can easily revert to more combative forms which they never practice realistically

As a judoka, my experience is that a lot of judoka don't really think about this much (modifying throws to be more dangerous for uke). Many don't really know the combative potential of Judo.

snipping...

Thing is, at their very core, martial art, I think especially the koryu, is not about being invincible, and not surprisable, or having techniques that are just TOO dangerous...they are about FEAR. About being vulnerable, being afraid of being caught unawares, and havng techniques that just aren't working and getting worried because this guy is REALLY trying to kill you.

Why? Because in previous generations they had more than just their dojo experience and a few pushing and shoving matches to draw on. They watched their friends, brothers, and lovers die on a regular basis. And they knew that the next day they may face the very same thing.

Very well put, Kit !

Ben Reinhardt

Arman
1st March 2002, 19:45
Kit-

You got a problem with chefs? There are many I know that are positively magicians with a knife. Wouldn't want to mess with them.;)

Yours in culinary camaraderie,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Earl Hartman
1st March 2002, 20:09
Apropos of what Kit said:

I recently started back at kendo again, after my hyper-extended Achilles tendon finally healed up after the LAST time I started up kendo again after a long absence. Getting old, fat, and lazy, needed some exercise, wanted to get the "feeling" back, wife bitching about my expanding waistline, wanted to see if I could hit people that didn't want to be hit, etc. I discovered a number of things, to wit:

1) the past US national champion practices at the dojo where I now practice. I was reminded once again that there is a LOT to be said for 1) youth, 2) size, 3) speed, 4) strength, 5) timing, 6) constant hard training, 7) good technique, and 8) a lot of experience. Reminded me of the quote by John Brodie's old college roommate who said "I could have been just as good a quarterback as John if I had had his strength, speed, skill, and courage." Anybody who thinks that a "secret technique", (koryu, this ryu, that ryu, or whatever) will make up for a lack of all of the other stuff is a fool.

2) I actually AM 50 years old now, dammit

3) I am better than some guys and worse than others

4) I can usually hit guys who are not as good as I am

5) If I am not careful sometimes guys who are not as good as I am can hit me

6) Guys who are better than I am can usually hit me

7) If they are not careful, I can sometimes hit guys who are better than me.

8) You gotta practice a lot if you want to get any good.

There ya go. I won't charge anything for the wisdom.

:smokin:

the Khazar Kid
4th March 2002, 18:27
Wow!! Great thread!! I am overwhelmed by the depth of martial wisdom on this forum.

What about the Koden-ryu? I have heard this school of Jujutsu was founded by Fujiwara Kamatori in the seventh century?

Jesse Peters

wmuromoto
5th March 2002, 01:06
Dear all,

Dan wrote: "...they are about FEAR. About being vulnerable, being afraid of being caught unawares, and havng techniques that just aren't working and getting worried because this guy is REALLY trying to kill you."

And Jesse, I think the outlook of somewhat old farts like Earl and Ellis (oh, well, sorry, maybe I'll just speak for myself as an old fart. Some of you guys might still harbor ambitions of an Indian summer of youth...), even though we may differ in the particulars based on our individual experiences, is that we probably have simple humbleness. --Not feigned, but the realization over the years that we ain't gettin' any younger, and we've been banged around enough to figure that we ain't the baddest guys in any arena. Even if we came close to it, we could slip on a banana peel, crack our heads, and get knocked around by the likes of Peewee Herman. Whatever budo you study helps the odds in your favor, sometimes a lot, but there's no guarentee. Never was, never will be. And we can play the coulda shoulda woulda forever, as Earl says, but we never woulda when we coulda, so what the heck. I coulda been a contender.

Wayne

Earl Hartman
5th March 2002, 02:28
Hey, Wayne, are you a member of Chunenbutori Ryu, run by Grand Soke Joseph Svinth? You sure sound like you are.

godstar
5th March 2002, 03:21
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
[B] On E-Budo we have been treated to ludicrous ideas such as:

It sounds like you are trying to list the arguments you are uncertain of in hopes we are all sympathetic. I've done my best to solve things by a dialectic approach with humerous sarcasm and an exciting conclusion.:burnup:

a) Not being able to be surprised because you can sense sakki from dojo training, and, after all, no one has ever been able to surprise them in the dojo,

Hmm... This just depends. By the way what is the official definition of sakki, I've trained in it and it seemed to be using killing intent and sensing it. Dangerous stuff I might add.

b) That many of the throws and locks are SO dangerous that they cannot be practiced full force, ITS REAL!!

People roll out of locks. A few ryu-ha give no consideration to uke's falling so you have to leap and roll once you feel the lock. Tori is then practicing a break or roll technique.

c) That Judoka use modified techniques for safety, and will not know how to change them into more dangerous throws because what they do is mere sport,

Again you are probably right. A judo throw on concrete with someone who doesn't know ukeme will be a devestating thing. But I doubt if most judoka will reason out alternative physics and biokinetics. :idea:

d) That a lawyer, or an academic, or an author, or a chef, has greater knowledge of "how things work".

Yep, especially the chef part. I think a lawyer has a lot of experience of reasoning with crooks. The acedemic doesn't have to deal with them. An Author is a know it all if you know more than they do and argue with them they will soon know more than you. I think for higher order martial arts intuition and intelligence trump job description.

Sorry, just got up, sprained my ankle yesterday, and am just generally in a surly mood about this stuff...

Put Ice on it. Start practicing a ultracooperative martial art where you throw a paper cutout of a ninja.

But its very interesting that mention the military "in the part I cut out." It's just ironic that what was favored by Japanese military is now prefered by chefs, acedemics, and lawyers.:confused It seems that you believe the military should favor Sports since they are proven in realistic combat(sports contests) and combat arts are unproven in realistic combat. And the acedemics in japan fostered the sport and so on... Ironic.

Everything depends on the specific style in question. But for what I will call japanese battlefield jujutsu ... Sometimes People complain when they don't break a sweat. Why don't they? Because they were developed for people who were short food energy and strength and had been running or walking for days on end. You will find that the multiplicity of concerns favors koryu but the specifics favor a newer art. The reason why I suggest learning about koryu and continue studying it despite being beaten in hypothetical matches, is that koryu has developed for multiplicity of reasons. If I list the multiplicity of reasons they will just p*ss you off... But in fairness it seems that we who practice koryu aren't always doing the techniques right and may benifit from some sort of sumo wrestling, -leaving the deadly techniques for kata, and developing efficientcy and weak angle training in cooperative wasa... This seems to be what koryu 'training' was according to our threads.

I believe that the human race will be better off if they learn the deeper and more philosophical side of things. And that goes double for the police and military.

:D

Neil Hawkins
5th March 2002, 10:06
Goldstar,

you make some good points, but first I have to remind you of our rule to use your real name when posting.

I have had the discussion (arguement!;)) many times on the effectiveness of jujutsu and I don't really want this to degenerate into the same tired old cliches. Like you I firmly believe that given sufficient grounding in the style you can adapt the teachings to any modern situation. Kit has valid points as well, some techniques work better than others and frankly some don't work at all.

I would go further though, to say that it does not depend on the art or style but the teacher presenting the information and the person practicing the art. I have seen a huge variation in skills within students of the same rank at the same school.

Sometimes this is attributed to different instructors (student tend to pick up the style of their instructor) and sometimes the student themselves have different physical or mental attributes that let them see the techniques in a certain way.

I see this as a benefit in many respects, but it can lead to people discounting a style or art when in fact it is the person that should be dismissed.

The issue with the police and military is that most times they do not have years to devote to an art so that they can explore the deeper levels. They need something effective in a short period of instruction and with minimal reinforcement. This is the reason that CQC schools sprang up, simple techniques, minimal philosophy, maximum effect.

There is a degree of irony in the fact that older military arts (although there are not that many left) are being eschewed for sportive systems, however you must remember that the traditional Japanese arts were taught from childhood within the family, the vast majority of foot soldiers were not taught much in the way of martial arts.

It wasn't until the time of Tokugawa that people started to travel and train in other schools and they trained full time, for however long it took. Few today dedicate that amount of time to anything. So the comparison is not as accurate as you would immediately think.

Regards

Neil

Dan Harden
5th March 2002, 10:25
Mr Godstar

WIll you please place your signature in your posts? We do as a means of open exchange-and compliance with the rules.

Some suggestions
Your coming on strong as a new member is fine. You will find we rather enjoy controversey and open exchange and do not shy away from valid contradictory argument-even ranting. That said, perhaps it would be wise to use the "profile" button under a posters name, then hit the the "view other posts by this member." Read through to sort of get a feel for who the people are and what their opinions are. Then when you find a few hundred people here who will undoubtedly meet with your approval you can talk WITH them in a manner more condusive to exchange.
You're actually agreeing with the guy you are sort of argueing with. Singing his tune- as it were.
See what I mean? Does that make sense to ya?

Its sort of like me and Kit arguing over this issue- WE CAN'T-we agree

Anyway
Welcome

cheers
Dan

Kit LeBlanc
5th March 2002, 14:23
Originally posted by godstar



But I doubt if most judoka will reason out alternative physics and biokinetics.



:rolleyes:

Ahh, the pillar of idealist martial art, where people don't resist with any realism, where those who do not "throw themselves" cannot be thrown, and where perfectly rational, intelligent and even well educated people leave their critical faculties at the dojo door.

That oughta get me some Bad Karma points!

Cady Goldfield
5th March 2002, 14:37
Kit, are you and Dan channeling each other or something? Every day you guys are sounding more and more like the Evil Twins. All the more reason why you gotta get out this way.

Cady
(Who spends more time than a girl should trying to throw resisting 220 lb. guys...and sometimes succeeds)