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Ulf Lehmann
4th March 2002, 08:04
There is a part of Honcho bugei shoden, what deals with a lot of Ryu of the Kanto.
Some of this schools are very popular (also in modern times) but some Ryu are unknown for me. Especially the Hoshin ryu, Ryoi ryu and Yamato ryu.
First, I believe the Yamato ryu means a Sogo bujutsu (maybe) and is not related with the Yamato ryu Kyu jutsu?
Second, Iエm not sure if the Ryoi ryu means the Ryoi shinto ryu, because the roots of this system should be in the Yagyu ryu of central Japan and not in the Kanto-region?

Do you know this ryu are still existent or changes the names in the last centuries?

Ulf Lehmann

Daniel Lee
4th March 2002, 08:17
Ulf,

Isn't 大和流 ('Yamato Ryu') actually Daiwa Ryu? According to Sato Kinbei's writings, Daiwa ryu was originally an archery school and in time changed focus to include unarmed. At the time Sato was the heriditary headmaster of the school, the syllabus was strictly unarmed by all looks of things. I've even seen some Tohoku area physical education history books with Sato demoing the daiwa-ryu - looks like aikijujutsu. Anyway, I don't know if this is the same thing as the Daiwa-do he later formed in which he restructured several jujutsu ryu-ha and taught them in shoden, chuden, okuden format as generic jujutsu for his non-closed-door students.

Good luck in your search!

Daniel Lee

Ulf Lehmann
4th March 2002, 08:59
Thank you for your answer - it sounds interesting and possible.
But the Kanji of "your" Yamato ryu are a little bit different from the texts of the Honcho bugei shoden. They write it with the same types like in the word "Nihon".
I will post the names of this schools in japanese, maybe it is helpful for a better description: Yamato ryu 日本流, Honshin ryu 本?S流, Ryoi ryu 良移流

Ulf Lehmann

Earl Hartman
4th March 2002, 18:27
Daniel:

Kyujutsu histories often mention a number of older "proto-ryu" for which there is no real historical documentation. Among these are the Yamato Rtu, the Mikoto Ryu, and the Taishi Ryu (supposedly established by Shotoku Taishi). AFAIK, "Yamato Ryu" is written with the characters for "Nippon", although I sppose it is possible that the characters also read as "Daiwa" could have been used. There is no evidence that actual established schools teaching distinct, coherent and documented syllabi existed under these names at the times they supposedly did. Anyway, regardless of whether you call this supposed ryu the "Yamato", "Nippon" or "Daiwa" ryu, it's just the same as saying that a ryu called the "Japan Ryu" existed. It appears that a lot of this is just nationalistic fantasy, created later to distinguish Japanese archery from foreign archery and to give the later ryu a pedigree by linking them to ancient and hoary traditions supposedly handed down by the national gods of Japan.

As I said, there is no real evidence for what we in the modern wourld would term "ryuha" kyujutsu prior to the advent of Heki Danjo Masatsugu around the time of the Onin War. The appellation of "ryu" to the older traditions is sort of an anachronism, and even celebrated lineages such as the Ogasawara Ryu refer mainly to family traditions, or "kaden", which later developed the characteristics we associate with the term "ryu" today. According to the late Saito Chobo, a well-respected kyudo historian and Ogasawara Ryu stylist, the existence of kyujutsu ryuha can only be reliably dated to the Muromachi period. Prior to that the appelation "Ogasawara Ryu", or "Takeda Ryu" referred to the Ogasawara or Takeda clan members and their retainers who followed the archery tradition of that family. It was only later that these teachings took on the organized corporate form that we associate with the term "ryu" today. In the old days things were a lot looser, apparently, and I suppose whether one considers the older traditions actual ryu is mainly a matter of definition.

Todd Schweinhart
4th March 2002, 23:26
Hey guys,
Another school that uses the Yamato name is a branch of Takagi Youshin Ryuu. It is called Yamato Youshin Ryuu. It is headed by a Kitada sensei. It isn't all that old and is only a branch of a main line ryu so this may not be what you are looking for. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville KY

Ulf Lehmann
8th March 2002, 12:14
Thank you for your reply.
Hmm, Iエm not sure that the author tell about "mythological" schools...

The whole text is about the "Kanto shichi ryu", the seven schools of Kanto-area. Including the Kashima ryu (I believe it means the school of Tsukahara Bokuden), Katori ryu, Bokuden ryu, Shinto ryu (maybe it means the Shinkage) and the other 3 Ryu of my first question.
The original text was writen in 1716 and I believe the author deals with the important schools of his time.

Ulf Lehmann

Daniel Lee
9th March 2002, 05:18
Thanks for your knowledge guys. Earl, you're a pandora's box even when it comes to archery! Once again, thanks for spilling the beans.

Daniel Lee