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Ken Allgeier
6th March 2002, 08:20
I have this theory concerning the creation of the Kusanku Dai/Sho and Passai /Sho kata( Kanku/ Bassai) by Anko Itosu ( 1832-1916 ).If you watch the performance of the Yara-Kusanku it is apparent that the Itosu-Kusanku dai & sho are a simplifed version of the more complex Yara-Kusanku.The question to ask is why did Itosu create two new types of kata from a prexisting classical kata? Their is a school of thought that will propagate that Itosu is responsible for the genesis of Karate/Tode being remove from the arena of a combative skills to one of a Do/Michi discipline acceptable to the general public as a form of physical athlectics, thus the introducation of the Pinan kata into the Okinawan public school system.


Their is also another school of thought ( my theory) that Itosu may have found a need to create kata that are/can be used against Bojutsu.Their are around 20 classcial Bojutsu kata from Okinawan,that number alone indicates that their was quite a bit of fighting with the BO in Okinawan, it seems that their is more Bojutsu kata collective than from each separate Karate/Tode traditions of Shuri-Te, Tomari-Te, & Naha-Te.In the later part of the 19th Century ,Sanda Chinen created his three Bojutsu kata, Shushi no Kon, Shirotaru no Kon, Yonekawa no Kon, thus quite a bit of Bojutsu was being practiced on Okinawan at this time in the later part of the 19th Century. This is just speculation and conjecture on my part, but Itosu may have taken the Yara-Kusanku and the Passai and created two new Sho versions for the purpose of utilizeing two new kata to counteract the Bo.I base this theory on the fact that both the Kusanku/Kanku Sho and Passai/Bassai Sho contain waza from attacks with the Bo.While the older versions of Kusanku and Passai do not contain any defense from the Bo, as far that I can ascertain.So maybe Itsou is not responsible for the deluding of combative soundness in Karate, but instead of responding to a situation in a rational maner in the cultural nexus of the epouch inwhich he lived, or I maybe totally incorrect with my theory.




ken allgeier

Rob Alvelais
6th March 2002, 15:07
Originally posted by Ken Allgeier
Their is also another school of thought ( my theory) that Itosu may have found a need to create kata that are/can be used against Bojutsu.Their are around 20 classcial Bojutsu kata from Okinawan,that number alone indicates that their was quite a bit of fighting with the BO in Okinawan, it seems that their is more Bojutsu kata collective than from each separate Karate/Tode traditions of Shuri-Te, Tomari-Te, & Naha-Te.In the later part of the 19th Century ,Sanda Chinen created his three Bojutsu kata, Shushi no Kon, Shirotaru no Kon, Yonekawa no Kon, thus quite a bit of Bojutsu was being practiced on Okinawan at this time in the later part of the 19th Century. This is just speculation and conjecture on my part, but Itosu may have taken the Yara-Kusanku and the Passai and created two new Sho versions for the purpose of utilizeing two new kata to counteract the Bo.I base this theory on the fact that both the Kusanku/Kanku Sho and Passai/Bassai Sho contain waza from attacks with the Bo.While the older versions of Kusanku and Passai do not contain any defense from the Bo, as far that I can ascertain.So maybe Itsou is not responsible for the deluding of combative soundness in Karate, but instead of responding to a situation in a rational maner in the cultural nexus of the epouch inwhich he lived, or I maybe totally incorrect with my theory.

ken allgeier


Hi Ken,

Having done the JKA Shotokan version of Kanku Sho and the Shito Ryu version of Kosokun Sho, I can't see the anti bo techniques in either kata. One might make a rather weak argument for a bo disarm in Kanku Sho, but as a practitioner of Yamani Ryu I still can't see it. The manner in which the bo is wielded in Yamani Ryu would shatter the hands and any other part that got in the path of the bo.

YMMV


Rob

kusanku
7th March 2002, 06:33
There may as Rob says be a couple bo disarms in some kata, but they would be against an inept wielder of a stick knowing nothing of bojutsu imo. Going against a bo adept barehanded is suicide, but if adept at sai jutsu you might have a chance.

Even katana against a bo is chancy at best, either could well die.

I think, though I have taken sticks from untrained people, that trying it against a bojutsu person would have to be before he got into action or motion, by crowding him at or before he began using the weapon, and taking it from him, not after a strike begins.

I believe it is documented that Itosu's simpler kata were for teaching the middle school children, Yara Kusanku is certainly more complex. It should be noted that Yara Kusanku can also be done either with two hairpins, or with two sai, and is so practiced in some schools. The two sai version would certainly offer defenses against a bo.

Again, not necessarily against a trained expert at a bojutsu ryu, however.

Just an opinion, too,
Regards to all,

Ken Allgeier
24th March 2002, 04:46
Hello Bob & John ,





The reference to the defence from a frontal attack from the Bo found in Kusanku/Kanku sho is the section of the kata after the Sokumen morote zuki both from the left and right direction, then proceding into the scenario named, " Bo uke ", then to " Bo dori tsuki otoshi ". In Shotokan it is performed in Kokutsu dachi and in photos of Chosin Chibana performing Kusanku sho ( 100 Year History of Shorin Ryu Karate, pg 159 ) it is preformed in Neko ashi dachi to Kosa dachi.


The waza in Passai/Bassai sho are, are found in the 2ed and 3erd scenerios "Morote koko uke", to "Suihe Bo dori" and and at the end of the kata, "Ura ashigake jodan shuto" to "morote hiki otoshi" in Neko ashi dachi.Both against frontal attacks from the Bo. I was training with Mr Grabow( a Bojutsu expert) one day and Tested my theory and it did work.Also their is a JKA film from the late 1950's ,which demostrates ippon kumite, kata, and practical applacation of self-defense sceneriors amoung them is a section inwhich Hidetaka Nishyama is being attacked by Hirokazu Kanazawa with the Bo several times,twice by a frontal attack and Nishyama defends himself utilizeing waza from both Kusanku/Kanku sho and Passai/Bassai sho.






ken allgeier

kusanku
26th March 2002, 00:25
Ken-
Like they always say-
If you can make it work, it's a good technique.

But in all fairness, Yamanni Ryu bojutsu which I have sen up close and personal from a student of Nishime, is not so easy to see, let alone get ahold of, and Rob is a practitioner of this art under Oshiro Sensei.

It may be that perspective that caused both of us to respond as we did.

Yamanni Ryu resembles nothing so much as a flying sliding pool cue on ice.
Regards,
John