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Finny
7th March 2002, 11:01
I was wondering if anyone (preferably one of the gurus) could tell me about any ryha that are still classified as otome or mongai-fushutsu. I understand that the Kage Ryu is, from Colin Hyakutake's excellent essay 'Kage Ryu' on Koryu books' website, and this spurned my curiosity.

Thanks in advance,
Brendan Finn:kiss:

carl mcclafferty
7th March 2002, 14:05
Brendan:

Not sure what you mean by "otome", are you talking about arts that only teach certain techniques to an inner group? My Japanese is mostly "new", o'to'me can be used for "maiden/virgin". Heh Heh, no telling where an old man's mind might venture in this discussion. Guess you'll have to enlighten us non-native speakers with a little english.

Carl McClafferty

Kolschey
7th March 2002, 16:51
Brendan,
Is "omote" the word you are looking for by any chance?

fifthchamber
8th March 2002, 16:51
Hi all,
It isn't 'Omote'...'Otome Ryu' meant a Ryu-ha that was linked to a particular Feudal domain or 'Han'..Examples could include the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (Edo branch) which was the Tokugawa Families 'Otome Ryu'..I am not sure exactly whic Kanji are used in the name but the term is and was used widely in reference to those schools that were directly linked to a particular Han.
In answer to the question...Sorry. I have little idea about any Otome Ryu that are still classed as such.
I believe that the Jigen Ryu or one of its subsets was an Otome ryu and is still taught in Satsuma but due to the breakdown of the feudal system it would be hard to hold the same ties to any one Ryu..Wit the freedom that was brought in many of the Ryu moved out and spread around Japan..And worldwide so it may be that Otome Ryu as a term is now obsolete in Japan...Sorry not to be of more help;)
Abayo..

wmuromoto
9th March 2002, 01:47
Hi,

From what I understand, otome ryu were systems sponsored in some way by feudal lords, and further, were restricted to only domain samurai, who were not allowed to teach the art outside of the province.

This existed up to the end of the Edo period. There was good reason for some otome ryu, as a lord, even during the Edo Period, never knew if he had to go to war against another lord, or even against the Tokugawa government. Spreading out the secret of one's particular fighting style would have been like the US giving the Soviets blueprints of their submarines during the Cold War.

These restrictions also played themselves out in other fields. Some arts were jealously guarded. The Nabeshima fief tried to keep the secrets of its ceramicware within its domain so it could keep a monopoly on its style of ceramics, thereby insuring a nice flow of income.

Although the system of daimyo sponsorship fell apart during the Meiji Restoration, leading to the representational government of Meiji and Taisho era Japan, some vestiges of the otome-ryu mindset still lingered on. When Nakayama Hakudo went to the former fief of Tosa (in present-day Shikoku) to seek instruction in that area's iai, the teacher he sought out refused to directly teach him. He could observe and take notes, but Hakudo could not be taught directly ("jikiden" transmission) because he was not connected to the former Tosa han. Within a very few years, however, other teachers were teaching that style of iai more openly. The division that was created between the two stylistic trends led to the current division between the Muso Jikiden Eishin and the Muso Shinden ryu iai forms, which were formerly otome ryu of the Tosa han.

Many other ryu were also otome waza, as they were attached to different feudal lords. Other ryu, which had dojo that were open to the general public, were more open in their accepting of students.

Anyway, my two cents' worth.

Wayne Muromoto

Yamantaka
9th March 2002, 09:54
Originally posted by wmuromoto
Although the system of daimyo sponsorship fell apart during the Meiji Restoration, leading to the representational government of Meiji and Taisho era Japan, some vestiges of the otome-ryu mindset still lingered on. When Nakayama Hakudo went to the former fief of Tosa (in present-day Shikoku) to seek instruction in that area's iai, the teacher he sought out refused to directly teach him. He could observe and take notes, but Hakudo could not be taught directly ("jikiden" transmission) because he was not connected to the former Tosa han. Within a very few years, however, other teachers were teaching that style of iai more openly. The division that was created between the two stylistic trends led to the current division between the Muso Jikiden Eishin and the Muso Shinden ryu iai forms, which were formerly otome ryu of the Tosa han.
Wayne Muromoto

YAMANTAKA : Dear Muromoto Sama,

Then, if I understood correctly, The Muso Shinden Ryu could be named a modern "ofshoot" of the more ancient Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu?
Best regards

Finny
10th March 2002, 10:00
Carl, Krzysztof: Sorry I couldn't clarify earlier, but I have been technologically deprived over the past few days :(

Thanks for the reply Mr Muromoto; exactly the info I was looking for.:smokin:

wmuromoto
11th March 2002, 21:45
Hi,

Yamanaka wrote: "...Then, if I understood correctly, The Muso Shinden Ryu could be named a modern "ofshoot" of the more ancient Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu?"

I wouldn't want to be that blunt. Both ryu have changed over the last century, and have changed for the several hundred years the Eishin style has been around. So to say that the Shinden-ryu is a "offshoot" is not quite right. It might be ONE variation of the main root of the system that gave birth to BOTH the Shinden-ryu and the Eishin-ryu; both are branches. The Shinden style is more influenced by different teachers within the lineage, and evolved a little differently. IMHO, it has also changed some methodologies based on more Kanto area influences, while the Eishin-ryu seems to have had more teachers in the outlying and Kansai areas. I think, perhaps, that the Shinden-ryu displays more influence from modern kendo theory than the Eishin-ryu, but there are Eishin-ryu teachers who also seem to be influenced by modern kendo theory. It's not that clear cut, as it is different from instructor to instructor. If this sounds confusing, it really IS confusing, even to me. I just gave up trying to figure it out.

Wayne Muromoto

Dan Harden
11th March 2002, 22:01
Thanks Wayne
I too gave up. I can't even get a straight answer from guys with the same teacher. And on the net the seniors in the same art don't agree- no reflection negative or positive-just confused.
And watching it? I'll be the first to say "I just don't get it."
Ain't my cup of tea

Cheers
Dan

Earl Hartman
11th March 2002, 22:01
Wayne:

The teacher who refused to instruct Nakayama S. was Oe S. his own self. I can't remember the name of the teacher from whom Nakayama S. learned right off hand, but I think he is mentioned in some stuff I've got at home. And you are right: Oe S. refused to teach him because he was not a Tosa native. Nakayama S. was from Ishikawa Prefecture.

What I do remember is that Nakayama S's. teacher was from the Shimomura-ha of Tosa Eishin Ryu as opposed to the Tanimura-ha, to which Oe S. succeeded. Documentation provided by Guy Power indicates that some considered Nakayama S. to be the inheritor of the Shimomura-ha of Eishin Ryu.

So, in a manner of speaking, Muso Shinden Ryu can be considered the Shimomura-ha of Eishin Ryu under a different name and as interpreted by Nakayama S. There is documentation to support the use of the "Shinden Ryu" name within the Eishin Ryu, cited by my teacher, Masaoka Katsukane (Kazumi) in his book "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai Heiho Chi no Maki" (Earth Book of MJER Iai Heiho).

Yamantaka
11th March 2002, 22:57
Muromoto San,

DOMO ARIGATO GOZAIMASHITA