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Arman
7th March 2002, 16:55
Here's a topic I've found interesting, and one that seems to generate many different, thoughtful opinions. To what extent are koryu "tied" to particular Japanese cultural/linguistic environments? In other words, is it possible to transplant an art from some Japanese village, where it was born and where it matured, to a foreign country and still maintain the unique characteristics of the art?

I recognize that even within Japan, the particular character of dojos' vary widely (especially among koryu). But speaking strictly about koryu, is the Japanese culture it was born in a necessary element of the art that cannot be safely removed?

While I recognize that any art form will be influenced by the environment it exists within, I am more of the opinion that koryu can be successfully removed, and thrive, in a foreign country. If done correctly, and with care, I believe the right group of people could carry on the tradition with a minimal degradation of the art. While the unique social/linguistic environment would change, I don't think this would be fatal to the art form as a whole.

I'm interested in hearing what others think about this. As we all know, there are small pockets of individuals and groups practicing koryu in the U.S. I don't imagine they consider their efforts as harming the art form they learned in Japan, although many seem sceptical about the possibilities for success.

Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Adam Young
7th March 2002, 18:19
Arman,

FWIW, my thoughts on your question are to a large degree dependant on a few factors:

(i) what you mean by 'transplant' or 'changing the unique social/linguistic environment;' and

(ii) the role that the martial art is supposed to play to the individual practitioner.

With regard to (ii), if the purpose of the practitioner is, at least in part, to gain exposure to Japanese culture, then I would say that it is absolutely impossible to completely sever an art from the cultural environment which created it. So much should be self-evident.

I think that this holds especially true for those arts that are not generally open to modification and updates. Where this is the case, the continued existence of a fundamentally consistent cultural background is essential to the continuance of the art in an unchanged yet vital form.

Additionally (and especially for most koryu), the actual physical forms themselves are a large part but not the whole part of a martial curriculum. Notwithstanding any personal improvement/spirituality mumbo jumbo that may be a part an individual's learning goals, there is a great deal of collateral knowledge that makes up an essential element of many martial arts. From my experience, this collateral knowledge is absolutely rooted in the cultural background of the art. To try and separate it is to destroy or render useless such knowledge.

So do I think that you have to practice in Japan and that attempts to preserve martial arts knowledge is futile? (Heaven forbid, have I become a koryu snob?) No, I think it is obvious that isn't true. There are any number of dedicated martial artists within 50 miles of me who thoughtfully and with due justice pass on the knowledge they have been given without any fundamental degradation.

This brings us to (i) above. If your implication by "transplant" and "change" above is that such arts be completely removed from their Japanese background and reculturalized, I would have to say that, yes there will be complete and utter degradation of the art.

But my intuition tells me that you did not mean that. When dedicated foreign practitioners continue to teach overseas, they often do so fully aware of the cultural background that their arts carries. So long as the arts are being transmitted in a way that makes the students aware of the collateral knowledge surrounding the art, I think it is irrelevant where, in geographical terms, the art is practised.

So, to summarize in a quick sentence: a geographical change in environment is not automatically fatal to the art, while a fundamental conceptual change is.

At least, that is my take on things.

Arman
7th March 2002, 19:45
Adam,

You raise some good points. By stating "unique social/linguistic/cultural environment" I mean all those things that are generally unquantifiable, yet evident in the formation of a particular ryu. Its "character" so to speak, which is certainly as much influenced by the people and their respective social milieu as it is by abstract, universal concepts. How much this SLC environment also forms what you call "collateral knowledge," is an interesting question.

I suppose the extent to which such collateral knowledge encompasses a fundamental conceptual foundation of an art would determine how much could safely be transplanted geographically. For I guess this leads to the next question, how much is geography tied to culture which leads us back to an art's "character" and perhaps its "collateral knowledge."

Perhaps if you could define "collateral knowledge" a little more, this may help refine our discussion.

Thanks for the thoughtful post,
Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Adam Young
7th March 2002, 20:38
Arman,

What I intended by "collateral knowledge" was that body of knowledge that may not formally be a part of the curriculum of a school, but which is nonetheless as essential part of learning.

An example of this from my own experience would be the chats with my sensei before or after class, or during social gatherings. These talks can be personal, historical, factual, anecdotal, directly on point or obscure. However, they are rarely irrelevant to my study of that particular martial art (actually, they are never off topic - I just fail to make the connections occasionally.

So, when my sensei tells of training anecdotes or historical matters, shows and explains parts of his sword collection or(very occasionally) teaches "okuden" bits of knowledge not usually open to rookies such as myself, this is collateral knowledge. It is not formally part of the curriculum, but it is invaluable.

This collateral knowledge, I feel, is necessarily rooted in the cultural background of the school. I don't think one must be of the culture to transmit such knowledge, but certainly one must be very familiar (...VERY familiar...) with such a culture.

With regard to the idea that geography is related to culture, again I think that there is a distinction to be made, this time between cultural development and cultural preservation.

Without a doubt, geography influences cultural development. But I do not think that it has much of a role to play in defining what culture was. To a large extent, what we get in martial arts (especially in koryu) is a look at what culture was - what is being taught doesn't reflect current cultural influence, but that of the past. In a sense it is preservatory (in the sense that it relies on the past and not the present). And, for the preservation of culture, geography plays a much less significant, or even inconsequential role.

But, for cultural preservation, the exposure of the active party (the "sensei") to (but not necessarily membership in) the culture in question is essential.

Your thoughts?

Arman
7th March 2002, 21:13
Adam,

You state, "This collateral knowledge, I feel, is necessarily rooted in the cultural background of the school. I don't think one must be of the culture to transmit such knowledge, but certainly one must be very familiar (...VERY familiar...) with such a culture."

I see your point. In other words, collateral knowledge is the historical information of (surrounding, about) a koryu that informs the formal curriculum (including, of course, okuden, which you might submit could also be considered a part of the curriculum, but only reserved for certain students). I also agree, this is invaluable, and a koryu devoid of such knowledge would merely be a set of ancient (well, old, anyway) technical applications. A shell, so to speak.

I believe we are in agreement then, that given a full transmission of a koryu's curriculum and knowledge, such an art could survive outside its place of origin. Of course, the problem then becomes the extent to which such full knowledge is ever really passed on, as well as the extent to which knowledge is gradually lost, added or modified by succeeding generations. This problem, I suppose, is not new, as many koryu continue to die within Japan because full knowledge (or what can approximately be called "full knowledge") is not passed on.

While I tend to agree with this, I am less certain about the extent to which present cultural forces influence koryu (isn't it ironic?). Can we be certain that present cultural forces do not contain historical knowledge by virtue of their continuity with the past? And cannot present cultural forces contain their own form of preservative, yet transformative, influence? If so, then a koryu surviving into the 21st century in Japan would be quite different than a koryu attempting to survive in the U.S., no matter how well the knowledge of the past is preserved.

I don't have an answer to this question. Only more questions, unfortunately.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Adam Young
7th March 2002, 21:47
And cannot present cultural forces contain their own form of preservative, yet transformative, influence?

I'll concede this. However, I do not believe that this present preservative culture is necessarily determinative when applied to individuals who seeks to perpetuate the knowledge of martial arts.

Such a view is based upon a far more fundamental view of the role that culture plays in the actions of people. While a full discussion is likely beyond the scope of E-Budo, I do not subscribe to the idea that people are bound by their culture, much as Marx bound people to history. Culture (I believe) is not wholly determinative of peoples' actions, and an awareness of one's culture can enable one to "disobey" what would otherwise come naturally.

So while a koryu surviving in 21st century Japan may very well be wholly different than one surviving outside of Japan (and by "different," I mean "better/more fundamentally unchanged/purer-at-the-core"), it does not necessarily have to be so. Chances are it may be, but it need not.

Which brings me back to my point that if the individual attempting to perpetuate the art is sufficiently steeped in the original culture (and, by implication, sufficiently aware of his or her own culture), then geographic location is irrelevant. The original culture is not separated from the art, but neither is the art presently immersed in the culture.

IMHO, FWIW, and all that.....

I notice that you, too, are a lawyer. You then, perhaps, will not object to my previous use of distinctions, the lifeblood of legal arguments. Most of my non-lawyer friends dislike engaging in friendly arguments with me because of my penchant for distinguishing (or, over-distinguishing, in their view). I used to think it was terribly irritating, but now I can't imagine any intellectual exercise that wasn't founded on distinctions.....

Arman
7th March 2002, 22:38
No wonder I understand your train of thought. Your speaking legalese!:)

I agree, distinctions are indeed the life-blood of not just legal argument, but nearly all arguments (especially if you're not just trying to persuade, but trying to win). Actually, the mere process of distilling abstract thought into discursive form is necessarily based on distinctions. Lawyers just take it the extreme, I guess. But I've been thoroughly indoctrinated, so I'm a lost cause.

I agree with your comments on cultural determinism. I am more of the universal, abstract principle mindset as well, and hence, not a Marxist, Hegelian, Weberian, Heidegerrian, Foucoultian post-structuralist, post-modern ninny either. On the other hand, I can't deny the powerful influence of cultural forces (travelling in Japan is itself an experience in cultural shock therapy). I just don't believe they are all-powerful.

Koryu present a conceptual challenge, however, in that it seems to me that so much of the substance of these arts, down to the way they are transmitted and preserved, are unique to Japanese culture. Not to say others can't learn and pass on the knowledge the same way. It's just far more difficult, especially when immersed in a culture very different from Japan's.

Of course, this is all mere speculation. But, hey, that's half the fun.

BTW, what type of law do you practice?

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Adam Young
8th March 2002, 14:38
I'm just your standard-issue New York corporate lawyer, one of thousands just like me. Specifically, I do structured finance.

I once considered pursuing the life of an academic (I can't get enough of legal and political philosophy), but I broke down and followed the money.

You?

Arman
8th March 2002, 15:12
You mean a "reformed" academic (i.e. you work for a living:) ). Me too.

I work in a small general practice firm - civil litigation, corporate, bankruptcy, estates, domestic and some criminal. The problem is, I followed the money too, but somehow, I really haven't found any yet. Sometimes the best laid plans. . . :rolleyes:

Anyway, we can probably carry on this conversation over pm, since it doesn't seem that this topic has attracted too much interest, unfortunately.

Cheers, :toast:
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Mark Jakabcsin
8th March 2002, 16:06
Arman wrote: "But speaking strictly about koryu, is the Japanese culture it was born in a necessary element of the art that cannot be safely removed? "

The culture that Koryu was born in no longer exsists, anywhere. Modern day Japan has far less in common with the Edo period than modern America has in common with our colonial period. Therefore if one determines that the culture is necessary to continue the art one would have to conclude that all Koryu arts died with that era of history.

mark

Rennis
8th March 2002, 16:37
The culture that Koryu was born in no longer exsists, anywhere. Modern day Japan has far less in common with the Edo period than modern America has in common with our colonial period. Therefore if one determines that the culture is necessary to continue the art one would have to conclude that all Koryu arts died with that era of history.

While it is true that the cultural setting these arts were "born" in no longer exists today. The fact remains that Japan didn't suddenly change from the Edo period to Modern Japan overnight. The koryu arts "grew up", so to speak, in the cultural evolutionary process of one period to the other, which was much less drastic than simply up and moving them to a completely alien culture over the span of time it would take for someone to learn it and then bring in to the West and start teaching it. While modern Japan certainly isn't Edo Japan, it is the result of Edo Japan and therefore this automatically gives it a much deeper connection culturally for the koryu arts than the West does. Simply saying that modern Japan is alot different than Edo Japan and therefore the West is just as good a place as any ignores the fact that one grew from the other and therefore, while still being different, are still linked.

Best Regards,
Rennis Buchner

Adam Young
8th March 2002, 17:04
The culture that Koryu was born in no longer exsists, anywhere.

Actually, I am not sure if this is an accurate statement. Certainly it is if you take culture to mean the "facade" that a society is identified with when viewed at a glance. True, social mores, interpersonal relationships and language use may have all changed from what they were back when the koryu were in development.

But the fact that what we see as "a culture" is no longer the same as it used to be does not mean that it no longer exists. As Rennis mentioned, pre-Edo and Edo culture formed the base on which modern Japanese culture grew. To further develop this idea, it might be possible to identify common themes which connect the old and the new, themes which exist in both settings. If these themes exist, then I would argue that these themes represent the actual culture, the core fundamental truth that distinguishes one culture from the next.

What we might think of as Japanese culture is really just a partially contemporaneous reflection of that core truth. And so, changes in outward appearances or even in thought patterns can represent the same core cultural themes when viewed in light of changing times.

Mark, while I don't necessarily think you are WRONG, I think there is room for argument in how you are using the term "culture."

Of course, I am not claiming to be right. I am not a specialist in cultural history. This is just an idea I thought of while waiting for a client to respond to some stuff. Surely, nothing I have said is too original.

But thanks for the input. Arman and I were beginning to get a bit lonely in this thread. :wave:

Ja.

fifthchamber
8th March 2002, 17:24
Hi all,
I think that Koryu would be able to survive the move outwards from their origins because of the 'totality' of the Koryu arts specifically..They are rarely taken one bit at a time..You should not for instance just take the philosophy of one Ryu and mix wth a western form of MA..The results would be a worried mix of confused ideas and thoughts..
In general the people that join the Koryu arts to study are those who have a great 'care' for what it is they are studying..Where it came from, how it developed, why it developed, and where it is heading..Those who foster this attitude (to anything) are very likely to raise and continue the Ryu in very much a 'Koryu fashion' wherever it is moved to worldwide..
It can be seen what the effect of those who pick n' mix their Koryu ideas with other forms is by the increasing amount of 'flake' schools that open teaching 'Genuine' Japanese arts..They are NOT considered in any way as Koryu and though they DO like to believe they ARE by definition they can never be.
I believe that it is the 'spirit' behind the person in training that really affects the way the school/koryu develops..and the vast majority of the people that I have seen in the Koryu are those very much concerned with the 'correctness' of the teaching.
Thus the transplanting of the system to a new area is never as important as the choice of person to DO the transplanting..As long as people TRULY care about the arts they teach and preserve NOTHING will happen to the arts that is not intended..
The majority of the Koryu require more from a student than simply fees and trophies..They require the devotion to both the art itself and the background the arts came from..This has always been the case, which I believe is why some people are chosen for 'headship' of a Koryu over others..It has been seen by their teachers that THAT person can and will continue the Ryu in the best way possible for its continuation and it is only on this decision that the new head is selected..Since the first Koryu were set up it has been seen that those that have prospered have been 'cared' for with the respect for the history and the art that they deserved and I do not think this will change..If it does then the school loses out..But I believe this BIG a blunder is rare today. The choice HAS to be the CORRECT one for the school and all involved know this..
Can westerners 'understand' Japanese backgrounds and culture well enough to provide this support? That choice again will be the choice of the Koryu's head..But the school will not be passed to one who is NOT ready for the responsibility..Be they Japanese, American, British, etc..ANYONE who cares DEEPLY enough about the art will absorb ALL the knowledge and information they need about that arts history and growth, be they Foreign or not..It is the PERSON that truly makes that 'leap' of faith..It is the PERSON that decides how much THEY wish to take in of the Koryu..And as long as there is this care then I believe that the Koryu arts are 'safely' to be continued and extended.
Growth is a natural part of their development..always has been and always will be. If they stagnate they die..If they are wise the school will be as strong as ever under ANY headship..And I would suggest that those Koryu that HAVE survived so far have VERY good 'survival instincts' that have supported them so far.
Good question..Interesting to hear others opinions on this also..
Abayo.

Arman
8th March 2002, 17:54
Ben,

I agree with your point regarding the people who study koryu. There is almost something of a "curators" love in people who study koryu. They approach the art as a tradition that is filled with not just techniques/kata, but history and culture and all the things Adam called "collateral knowledge," which the practitioner wants not only to learn, but to preserve in as pure a form as they received it.

I am still, however, undecided about the extent to which Japanese cultural patterns and themes can be removed and thrive. The problem is that a koryu contains a hefty amount of cultural knowledge. A foreigner would have to be not only immersed within the culture to fully understand it, but be equally careful about the dissemination of the art in a place with drastically different cultural patterns. But that's not to say it can't happen.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

allan
9th March 2002, 22:35
Hello,

Let us also remember that koryu, beyond being a set of techniques, oral tradition and the like, also function(ed) as a form of social organization. What does sokeship, as one example, mean to a non-Japanese who has never had direct personal ties to Japan? For another example of the problems of transplantation we can look to the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. The art developed in order to protect the Katori shrine and environs. It has always been taught to locals for that very purpose. What happens when this koryu is then transplanted to, say, Toronto?

I believe that the Japanese specificity of koryu arts needs to be maintained. I think that some are trying very hard to do this. It must always be remembered that these arts are JAPANESE and I believe that they must remain so to continue being what they ARE. Even more than being Japanese however, most koryu traditions are highly localized (as with the TSKSR). This forms as much of their identity as any of their waza do.

Now, that said I am very glad that there are those who are trying to carry these traditions abroad from Japan. I think that Mr.Lowry does a very good job of exploring these questions in his essay "A Coconut Palm in Missouri" which you can find at http://koryu.com/library/dlowry3.html

Take Care.

Allan Heinemann

Aaron T. Fields
10th March 2002, 02:32
Culture and physical culture, religion, etc is always tied. Things can be transported to new cultural geographic area, but there will always be a certain amount lost in "cultural translation." The "loss" of cultural significance also equals new cultural "gains."
The concept that there is gain or loss is one I don't agree with, it just changes.

Finny
10th March 2002, 10:56
In contrast to what many have written here, I DONT believe that the Koryu can be removed from Japan. I believe that the techniques may be, and much of this "collateral knowlege" may be as well , but I tend to think that it would be like learning to speak english in a non-english speaking country; you can learn the techniques of the language, but without immersion in the culture that continues and develops it, you wouldnt be very comfortable holding a conversation, because you miss the "little things", IMHO.
Brendan Finn

fifthchamber
10th March 2002, 13:53
Hi all,
Essentially I agree with the comments about the Koryu not being able to survive outside of their own particular context...And if you look at the vast majority of the Koryu they are not passed on to 'external' hands because of that fact.
I believe that if it were possible then it would happen. Simple. As it has not so far I would suggest that the feelings of those in authority among the Koryu would tend to agree.
The point is that ALL external sources of the Koryu say, very honestly, that it is 'best' to train in Japan...And aside from a few small external schools this is a followed pattern in the Koryu.
But, whether the school can survive in 'foreign' hands will ALWAYS be up to the head of the Koryu...And maybe things will change, maybe not..But it is a choice made by an INDIVIDUAL about a INDIVIDUAL and their ability to comprehend what that task is that HAS to decide ultimately I think..NOT necessarily the fact that one is not Japanese.
Thats my point.
Abayo.

Chidokan
10th March 2002, 19:19
So, when my sensei tells of training anecdotes or historical matters, shows and explains parts of his sword collection or(very occasionally) teaches "okuden" bits of knowledge not usually open to rookies such as myself, this is collateral knowledge. It is not formally part of the curriculum, but it is invaluable.

I think this is the answer to why eventually most of the serious students 'do a pilgrimage' to the senior dojo. We can all go so far in the west, but eventually you hit a brick wall where you can either go no further or stagnate. My last visit over there was an eye opener in some respects, in that when my sensei visits the U.K. we get these little snippets of 'in the old days so-and-so did this..', in Japan as we were there for a good while and stayed with him continuously, this evolved into lengthy evening conversations. This sometimes seemed to be almost casual but looking back it was obvious the conversation was deliberately steered that way by the senior teachers. I think that the older generation of teachers are getting worried that this type of thing may get forgotten so therefore try to fit in as much as possible while we are there. I have been asked to prepare as many questions as possible for the next trip I make (homework at my age!) so they obviously regard this collateral information as important...

Tim Hamilton

Jerry Johnson
10th March 2002, 23:10
This is a good thread. And I personally have no idea or the background to answer the topic question. I have wonder about this myself.

When I was young I wished for a real Mr. Miyagi for a sensei. That was my youthful stereotype of the idea. I never found one. I don't think I ever will. Which is my perspective of the topic. I really think cultures are alive, ever changing. Transplant that culture to another and what you have is only part, i.e. the Sensei bring his culture which is within him to the New World. The rest of the culture and all that made him is left behind. Something that is immobile. That would be all the other people and influences can't be taken with him or her.

What I think happens more then not, is that the new culture influences the Sensei. Who then most make compromises. So, then it is mixed with new influences etc.

As I have gotten older and left childhood behind I have come to realize there is no going back. And the reality is that the world is getting smaller and the winds of change have be ome more rapid and they will prevail as time marches on.

Aaron T. Fields
11th March 2002, 21:33
Is Japan today and Japan of 600 years ago the same cultural context?

Jerry Johnson
11th March 2002, 22:50
Gee, I would think not, I would think Gen. McArthur (sp) and WWII put the final cap on that.

Gil Gillespie
12th March 2002, 16:13
Hi Jerry. It is MacArthur. Just think of "American Caesar" (Willaim Manchester's bio): M-A-C. More on that in a bit. . .

Aaron I think your question would be more accurately phrased "Japan of 400 years ago." 600 years ago places Japan in the 1400's, when the culture was in massive flux, mostly from the huge influx of Chinese ideas and social mechanisms, but also from the disintigration of the Ashikaga shogunate, which would lead to the Onin Wars in the 1460's and over 100 years of countrywide civil war.

When Tokugawa "settled" things in 1600, he instituted the sealing off of Japan and expulsion of foreign influences which actually empowered the development of the true feudal Japanese culture we look back on today. And I'd have to say yes, the country is still in the same "cultural context." Tokugawa xenophobia still runs deep in the Japanese national character, along with neo-Confucian principles such the primacy of group over individual and heirarchical obedience (children to parent, worker to boss, etc.). The easy reciprocal confluence of Shinto and Buddhism still permeate the Japanese soul. Ancestors may not be worshipped as commonly as they once were, but they are still revered, and few are the Japanese homes without a family kamiza where offerings of rice and water are placed daily.

The list goes on. My (Japanese) wife is very modern and quite the wiseacre, but you don't have to scratch deeply at all to find a very traditional Japanese girl. We observe many rustic Shinto rituals and festivals. Right now O Hina sama are on display, a collection of exquisite porcelain dolls and accoutrements in celebration of Girl's Day (Hina Matsuri: the Doll Festival on March 3). Junko will brook no rudeness or disrespectful behavior in the presence of the display, and it is really quite touching. In this I think she is representative of the modern Japanese and the depth of their cultural roots.

As far as MacArthur and the Occupation putting a "final cap" on this cultural context, it was actually more of Maggie Thatcher's "thin veneer." The modernization of Japan after the Meiji Restoration is probably unmatched in history in its speed and totality. Forty years after walking the streets in hakamas and wearing daisho's they were fighting a major modern war against Russia. They had become the modern nation that would launch Pearl Harbor. In 40 years!

Although badly mauled by the war, that infrastructure and social energy were in place. What the Occupation did was kickstart the economic miracle of late 20th century Japan. The prewar industrial conglomerates (zaibatsu) morphed into the kinder gentler keiretsu, and the postwar rebuilding equpped both Japan and West Germany to confront the late 20th century with glistening new industrial complexes.

As they had throughout their history, the Japanese took what they valued from outside sources, discarded what didn't fit their purposes, and then proceeded to beat the source country over the head with their adaptations! But their hardwiring was all hundreds of years old. Their cultural values and social mechanisms made MITI (Ministry of International Trade and Industry), the "captain's bridge" that coordinates, prioritizes and drives the Japanes economy, a logical outgrowth of their society. Good old American throat-cutting natural selection capitalism, rich and robust in the short haul, not only never saw it coming, but never got the joke.

Jerry and Aaron, your last 2 one liners, although slight thread drifts from "Koryu and Culture," raise really thought provoking questions. I hope some of our old time e-budo heavy hitters, so far silent, will emerge from the bushes.

Arman
12th March 2002, 16:57
Gil-

Nice summary and introduction to Japanese history since 1600. I agree with you regarding the persistence of pre-Meiji cultural patterns, although an interesting question is the degree to which the militarization of 20th century Imperial Japan and its concommitant barbarism was a perversion of older cultural patterns, or really the logical modern extension of it.

I don't agree with you regarding the long-term success of MITI. I think the Japanese are learning the hard way the limits of "neo-Confucian capitalism." In terms of long-term economic growth, it can't beat the "creative destruction" of the free-market. (but this is serious thread-drift)

Perhaps the key behind koryu and culture is a bizarre truth: namely, that 21st century Japan is a frenetic, hyper-modern culture churning within pre-modern, traditional cultural modes (never mind the differences between city and village life).

How this will affect koryu in this century even within Japan is an interesting question. It goes back to the problem of the extent to which we can consider koryu irremovably tied to Japanese culture, no matter how much modern Japan changes. It also begs the question the degree to which koryu can remain insulated from larger cultural changes, wherever they exist.

Great comments, people.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Soulend
13th March 2002, 10:48
I think that Koryu arts can be transplanted, but only on a very limited basis and only by a very few dedicated individuals who can keep the traditions intact. Speaking of 'Coconut Palm', remember that Mr. Lowry himself is an extremely rare individual that received most of his training in the U.S., and his knowledge and skill does not seem to have suffered. Training in the west would probably present some logistical inconveniences..not like you can just run to Wal-Mart and pick up some waraji, but I don't feel that it couldn't be done.

The danger always exists of corruption of the art, but then again the same danger exists in Japan as well. But on a limited, selective basis, with teachers the likes of Meik Skoss..I think it would be more feasible than transplanting say, the Shinto religion, which is inherently Japanese to the point where observance of it would seem to be kind of a "red herring" outside Japan. No offense intended to Shinto folk outside of Japan!

Arman
13th March 2002, 14:29
David,

Thread-drift again on my part, but as for your comments regarding Shinto: ever compared Shinto with Native American cosmology/"religion?" There are some very interesting and strong similarities that really deserve more serious study.

Sorry for the off-topic comment.

Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Aaron T. Fields
14th March 2002, 21:26
My point was that if cultural orientation is crucial for koryu then they are long dead. Another point is that if "Koryu are battle-field" combatives than most of the koryu I have seen practiced today are missing the most important element of a battle-field approach. Group tactics.......and you are what you practice, so unless someone practices with 100 other naginata resisting a cavalry charge......well....it is a single guy swinging around a big sharp thing.

Brently Keen
15th March 2002, 18:58
FWIW, I think I'll quote from the Introduction (Keiko Shokon) of Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan" by Diane Skoss, and then add a few comments after that:

" By exploring the old, one becomes able to understand the new." Kato Takashi, headmaster of the Tatsumi-ryu, draws on Confucius to describe the value of the classical martial arts in today's society. In a similar vein, my own teacher's teacher, Nishioka Tsuneo, has as his motto, "Keiko shokon: Reflect deeply on the past, decide what to do now, then do it," urging us to connect our studies of ancient arts with decisive action in our daily lives. The stream of the koryu bujutsu, or classical martial traditions, flows down to us across more than four centuries, and provides a unique vehicle for both reflecting on the past and actualizing the present.

Training in the classical martial arts takes place within the context of a time-honored and very Japanese social structure that has at its center the transmission of tradition. These arts can be thought of as living history, preserving principles of combat and details of etiquette of an era long past. Yet they also serve a multitude of purposes in our modern world, ranging from "spiritual forging" to the cultivation of skills that are practical despite the archaic weapons employed. "

Culturally, I think the koryu are to various extents anachronisms, to what extent, I suppose depends on the particular ryu, the instructor, and perhaps to some degree where (and in what context) the tradition is being transmitted.

However, as the above article points out, the old anachronistic, out of date (and perhaps out of place) traditions are not merely museum pieces of history, but are living entities with value and relevance for living (and I believe in some cases also for politics/war, fighting and/or protection) today.

If both the headmasters quoted above as well as many others not mentioned, all believe their traditions have value and merit in today's society, and have continued to transmit their traditions in today's culture(s), then it would seem to me that whatever changes and/or differences there are between the Japanese culture of 400 years ago and the contemporary cultures of today -while no doubt significant - are not too great to diminish the value of training in and preserving these traditions for posterity. If these arts have to be learned within the culture for which they were created, then there would be no present day value in preserving them other than as curious museum relics of ancient eras gone by. Because the actual culture in which they were born and developed no longer exists either in or out of Japan.

Having said that, I do believe that while modern Japanese culture has changed dramatically from the classical era - remnants of that culture persist and much of the modern culture still retains various characteristics/elements of those days gone by. Therefore some exposure to and preferably immersion in the Japanese culture will aid in the understanding of various behaviors, movements, manners, and such that are part of the koryu training experience. In that sense, Japanese culture (both old and new), while not absolutely essential to the practice of koryu arts - is an important aspect of it's transmission (imho), in that understanding the culture places much of the tradition into a more understandable context from which one can then derive more usefulness and added value for our practice today in whatever culture we find ourselves in.

Koryu then (imho, again) are a much more effective (less anachronistic?) vehicle for 'reflecting on the past and actualizing the present' when they are understood more within their cultural (and historical) context than apart from it. How else can one accurately explore and reflect upon the past in order to better understand and actualize the present?

Taking things (like instruction) out of their context is probably the fastest way to misunderstand and misapply their points. Once something is understood within it's context however, then the underlying principles can be applied (actualized) more freely in and to other contexts.

Brently Keen

Arman
15th March 2002, 21:24
Brently,

Nice post.

Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Soulend
16th March 2002, 09:58
* start thread drift *


Thread-drift again on my part, but as for your comments regarding Shinto: ever compared Shinto with Native American cosmology/"religion?" There are some very interesting and strong similarities that really deserve more serious study.

The closeness with nature inherent in both had dawned on me, but unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge of Native American belief systems to draw many other similarities. This would be interesting...when I return to the States and have some better access to research materials, I'll look into this. Native American culture has always fascinated me.

* end thread drift * :D