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Tatsumaru
8th March 2002, 02:26
The ninja has a lot of theories now a days , and noone is certain of wich one is the real thing , some day ninjas were wondering priests who were being chased and peasants who didnt liked the goverment etc... , others say ninjas were regular samurai just on espionage missions but in the day they were just samurais and at night of course as usual swat team does , they did a little stealth movements as spies , some say according to ninja scrolls , ninjas always managed to kill hundreds of samurais without ninjas having a casuality , but what of all the real thing is the correct one ? theres nothing that can prove that the ninjas scrolls really have a history or that are real. others say ninjutsu just borned from peasant's ideas because they like legends and entertainment.

John Lindsey
8th March 2002, 03:11
Have you had a chance to read the Bansenshukai, ninpiden, or the Shoninki?

Robert Krone
8th March 2002, 04:17
Many consider Stephen Turnbullís book to be the best English reference on the ninja. Itís rather difficult to discern reliable info out there from the more numerous bad.

From the various sources that Iíve come across I believe that the ninja were ďall of the aboveĒ.

Robert Krone
8th March 2002, 04:28
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Have you had a chance to read the Bansenshukai, ninpiden, or the Shoninki?

I'm surprised John didn't mention this link: http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/historicalrecords.html

Jeff Hamacher
12th March 2002, 00:25
i wonder, Mr. Lindsey, if this thread should be moved to the Japanese History forum. i have no intention of starting another round of the "Ninpo-Taijutsu is/isn't Koryu" debate, but it seems to me that the jury is still out on the historicity of ninpo-taijutsu as an authenticated koryu art, and as such may not fit perfectly here. i would also point out that Tatsumaru's question is sooner about the history of the ninja's role in society (or as a function of the samurai role) than the arts or techniques that they practised, and thus may be more appropriately placed in History. FWIW.

Joel Simmons
14th March 2002, 22:19
Aloha,

Mr. Lindsey - are any of these sources authentic, or are they fabricated? Just wondering. Most of us here in the U.S. do not speak Japanese or read Japanese literature in its native script of any era, so how should we know what is just a farce? I acknowledge that the Japanese kept very stringent records regarding lineages, government affairs, religious movements, etc. However, this is exactly the problem when it comes to analyzing scrolls that discuss ninjutsu.

Practitioners espouse the lifestyle of a hermit, renegade samurai, military general, religious outcasts, etc. from which the founders of the tradition emerged. Several of these occupations would have allowed for historical documentation of their activities, while the more esoteric lifestyles would prevent this from occurring. If, for instance, ninjas were religious outcasts, there would be little if any documentation of their existence or lineage by an outside source. I'm sure there may be quite a few scrolls around that talk about ninja, but as said by an above post, it could just be an invention of entertainers writing down their script for the nightly play to entertain their guests. As for some of the "lineage" scrolls that Hatsumi Sensei possesses, I've read from other sources that many of the practitioners listed by Takamatsu Sensei were completely fictitious. Many of the names Takamatsu recorded were the names of comic book character ninjas that were popular at the time when he taught Hatsumi.

I want to apologize if my post came off too antagonistic, however I'm a skeptic for the sake of the subject. Ninjutsu was/is of great interest to me, yet most of the information I've read or have been presented (all in English mind you) is too ambiguous. I would love to believe that there is authentic ninjutsu in existence, yet as the starter of this thread related, none of the ninjutsu practitioners of today can really tell a person who historical ninja were and where they came from, etc. I apologize again for any toes I may have stepped on, but I want to believe as much as the next person. I just want the kind of proof other koryu can present.

Nuutti Kotivuori
15th March 2002, 12:46
Originally posted by hawaiianvw67
Ninjutsu was/is of great interest to me, yet most of the information I've read or have been presented (all in English mind you) is too ambiguous.

You should be mindful of the two different things you ask.

Firstly you ask that did ninja exist? And if they did, what were they really? And so on.

But an entirely another question is that has something like ninpo taijutsu had an unbroken line of teachers to this day. As in, has the ninpo taijutsu practiced today really a historical basis from several years back - or was there an interruption in the transmission somewhere, and it all is just made up again from documents by a single person.

These questions revolve around the same subject, but still are quite different.

Nuutti Kotivuori

Joel Simmons
15th March 2002, 21:59
Aloha,

Yes that is exactly what I meant. I guess my grammar skills need some work. I agree that ninja did exist in a historical sense, absolutely. Where it becomes a little foggy for me is when the modern-day practitioners of "ninjutsu" claim an unbroken line of lineage.

Thank you for pointing out the differences, Nuutti.

Finny
16th March 2002, 07:10
hey all,
I asked basically this same question some time ago in the ninjutsu forum and was instantly lynched, so I'll try to keep it as short and succinct as possible.
From what I can gather, it comes down to Do you beleive Hatsumis claims regarding his lineages and 'secret scrolls', that ive never seen or heard of anyone else seeing, OR do you beleive the guys that say they heard from a guy who heard from a guy who heard Draeger say Hatsumi applied to the Kobudo Shinkokai but was rejected due to discrepancies in his lineage claims. There, I think i wrote that as unbiased as is possible.

FWIW, I was told in my thread that the reason Hatsumi wasnt allowed into the Kobudo Shinkokai was because,disillusioned with their political mechinations, he showed them the scrolls that Takamatsu revised, thinking he'd 'show them'.
To which I asked, why would he apply to join an organisation of ancient martial traditions, then 'trick them' by showing them recently written scrolls?????

Needless to say I got no reply.

Brendan Finn :burnup:

Jim_Jude
21st March 2002, 15:19
I believe that this has been addressed before. Many Sr. Bujinkan have said that yes, there are very old scrolls in the possesion of the Bujikan Soke. At least a handful of shihan (including those pesky gaijin) have seen them. It has also been stated that much of our tradition is Kuden and not Koryu (ie, Verbal Transmission and not written down on scrolls, or written down later). Please see the following article by a Bujinkan Shihan... http://www.bkronline.org/articles/not_koryu.php

Also, I don't believe that Hatsumi-sensei worries too much about the unsubstantiated accusations by so-called scholars that have never even met him or Takamatsu-sensei, yet try to make claims as to the legitimacy or history of the Takamatsu-den arts, nor the poseurs posturing on the I'net about what they just read on Koryu.com. Everything that I have heard is that Hatsumi-sensei will show you the scrolls if you are indeed a sincerely interested party, but it's not important to him to "show the world". Budo is much more important. And he has shown the world that. & if you would like to see his budo, you can go train with him at any time. The Hombu's doors are open.

wmuromoto
22nd March 2002, 01:33
Interesting.

I might be accused as one of those "posers" in that tirade posted by a Bujinkan judan named Sean. I had a direct conversation with Donn Draeger, not heard it from a friend of a friend who heard this or that. And Draeger said he went directly to Hatsumi sensei and asked his questions, then researched and came up with his own conclusions. Interesting, what Draeger said of what Hatsumi told him some 30-odd years ago. I'll leave it at that.

I have no quarrels with Hatsumi sensei's technical abilities. I studied a bit with the first non-Japanese national to study under Hatsumi (long before anyone else from America went over), and learned a bit of the Eda ha Koppo-ryu. Very effective and very painful.

The questions some people raise, however, has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the system, it has to do with the lineage chart as he and Takamatsu once presented it to different researchers and organizations in Japan, which proved to have some curious discrepancies. For example, Toda Shinryuken, who Takamatsu says passed on the lineage to him, died some ten years before Takamatsu was born.

But basically, I take umbrage at "Sean"'s appropriation in his defense of ninjutsu regarding tea. It bugs me because I'm a tea student. Sean stated:

(snip)

...Many Japanese traditions including Karate Koppojutsu, Cha-Do, Sho-Do, Etc. have been handed down in a Kuden format for centuries....

(end of snip)

Tea is not kuden. With all due respect, the way the writer used the word kuden is wrong, first of all, but that's another argument.
In all traditional iemoto arts like tea, there is a very well documented lineage line that goes back to some historical master. And lots and lots of documentation. Documentation goes back to the time of Rikyu and before. We know all the players. If anything, Sean and others who try to research ninjutsu should use better examples. ...Not to slight the technical strengths of the art, but anyone who wants to cite examples from tea should be better prepared to have some real understanding of it. That's all I wanted to say. I'm not looking for a who said what argument. Just a bit peeved at the misappropriation of sado.

Wayne Muromoto

gmarquay
22nd March 2002, 01:43
The questions some people raise, however, has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the system, it has to do with the lineage chart as he and Takamatsu once presented it to different researchers and organizations in Japan, which proved to have some curious discrepancies. For example, Toda Shinryuken, who Takamatsu says passed on the lineage to him, died some ten years before Takamatsu was born.

* Sorry. Takamatsu Sensei was born in 1887. toda Shinryuken Masamitsu Sensei died in 1909. Your numbers simply don't add up.

- Glenn Marquay

George Kohler
22nd March 2002, 21:55
Originally posted by wmuromoto
The questions some people raise, however, has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the system, it has to do with the lineage chart as he and Takamatsu once presented it to different researchers and organizations in Japan, which proved to have some curious discrepancies. For example, Toda Shinryuken, who Takamatsu says passed on the lineage to him, died some ten years before Takamatsu was born.

Hello Mr. Muromoto,

One thing that strikes me as strange is how did the organization get this date? The reason why I ask is because no one can find any records for Toda Shinryuken. I believe this is one of the main reasons why there is discrepancies in the lineage.

Yamantaka
26th March 2002, 12:06
Originally posted by gmarquay
* Sorry. Takamatsu Sensei was born in 1887. toda Shinryuken Masamitsu Sensei died in 1909. Your numbers simply don't add up.
- Glenn Marquay

YAMANTAKA : So Toda Sensei passed on his art to Takamatsu Sensei when this one was 11 or 12 years old? :confused:
Also curious

George Kohler
26th March 2002, 12:42
Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : So Toda Sensei passed on his art to Takamatsu Sensei when this one was 11 or 12 years old? :confused:
Also curious

Hmmm, 11 or 12? Based on the dates that was given by Glenn, if they are correct, would make Takamatsu sensei 22.

But as far as I know Takamatsu sensei was born 1889.

1889 Takamatsu sensei born
1909 Toda passed away
__________
= 20 years old

gmarquay
26th March 2002, 13:30
Actually, I have read that Takamatsu was born in 1887, and read elsewhere that it was 1889. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Glenn Marquay

Joel Simmons
28th March 2002, 13:41
Glenn,

It has been proven that some of the lineage Takamatsu named were comic book characters. He also includes several founders of iai and Minamoto ancestors in his lineage. :rolleyes:

I don't know where you're getting the numbers on when Takamatsu was born, but the Bugei Ryuha is a non-bujinkan/genbukan source, which makes it more relevant in a historical sense. The Bugei Ryuha shows Takamatsu being born in 1919, ten years after his "sensei" passed away. 1919 and 1887...that is a HUGE difference...somebody is blatantly fixing numbers or completely inept at keeping records.

George Kohler
28th March 2002, 16:25
Originally posted by hawaiianvw67
I don't know where you're getting the numbers on when Takamatsu was born, but the Bugei Ryuha is a non-bujinkan/genbukan source, which makes it more relevant in a historical sense. The Bugei Ryuha shows Takamatsu being born in 1919, ten years after his "sensei" passed away. 1919 and 1887...that is a HUGE difference...somebody is blatantly fixing numbers or completely inept at keeping records.

Joel,

Sorry, but if the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten said he was born in 1919 then the book is wrong. He helped form the organization Kodosenyokai Shobukyoku in 1919 at the age of 30. He was even photographed during the 1919 inauguration ceremony of Shobukyoku. This picture can be seen at http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history05_e.htm .

Takamatsu sensei passed away in 1972 at the age of 83. If this is true then that would put him at being born in 1889.

BTW, the BRDJ is not a primary source and has a few mistakes in it.

George Kohler
28th March 2002, 16:36
BTW, forgot to add.

If he was born in 1919 and passed away in 1972, that would make him 53 when he passed away. He doesn't look 53 in this picture.

George Kohler
28th March 2002, 17:47
Originally posted by hawaiianvw67
It has been proven that some of the lineage Takamatsu named were comic book characters. He also includes several founders of iai and Minamoto ancestors in his lineage.


Can you give us these comic book characters and and also the research that has proven that these characters were not real?

You stated SEVERAL founders of iai, can you name ALL of them? I only know of one and that is Katayama Hokinokami Hisayasu. This is in the Shinden Fudo ryu lineage. And as far as I know, he was associated with many schools.

Nathan Scott
28th March 2002, 19:16
I've got to be honest, I don't think trying to hold an academic discussion on the history of ninja/ninjutsu in here is a good idea.

I've followed many writings and discussions of this sort over the last 20 years, and my observation has been that most ninja proponents get upset and defensive when things are said that they don't want to hear. So far, this thread has been reasonable, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for one of the senior budo-ka/researchers to jump in (again).

Discussions like these take a lot of energy and time, and seem to always end in the people who offer their opinions and historical comments as being labeled snobby, wrong and elitist. It isn't worth it.

Why not just enjoy your training and not worry about the (apparently) unverifiable lineage, or, if it must be validated then approach someone like Mr. Roy Ron (Genbukan) to do professional research for you? Nothing can be proven by rehashing the same information here (pointing out again that Hatsumi s. was given a title by the Emperor, that the Bujinkan actually has nine traditions, six of which are samurai, or that a previous headmaster was once a menkyo in TSKSR).

I don't mean to come off negative, but these discussions don't seem to go anywhere unless there is substantial validated research introduced first.

BTW, if anyone is interested, I just read some interesting information about this subject in the 1993 issue of AikiNews (#95) in an article titled "Interview with Laszlo Abel". Mr. Abel is a long time exponent of koryu, having lived in Japan for something over 16 years studying with Nawa Yumio s., among others. He is a well respected Budo researcher, and made a few comments that some might find interesting (these are of course his own opinions and observations):


So I came to Japan and did about eight months of training out at Noda city in Chiba Prefecture with Hatsumi Sensei. I think the reason I did not continue there again was the commercialization. I distinctly remember one night getting changed with a Frenchman, Laurent Tressiere, who had trained there for a long time. Hatsumi sensei came into the changing room, and said in the course of a short conversation, "study here, take the techniques back to your country, charge a lot of money for them, and send it back to me." That's what turned me off.

Later in the interview, Abel talks about mizugumo ("water spider"), saying how Nawa sensei had been employed to find out whether it was really possible to "walk across water" using mizugumo. He got together expert stuntmen and acrobats and reconstructed some based off the information in the Bansenshukai. They found that it was impossible unless the design was significantly modified into a single large raft-like device which one would sit and paddle across water in. In other words, in his experience, the mizugumo as depicted in the Bansenshukai were not effective or practical.

I don't know if this interview is commonly known, but since it is a first hand account, hopefully it is useful.

Just some thoughts,

George Kohler
28th March 2002, 20:42
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I've got to be honest, I don't think trying to hold an academic discussion on the history of ninja/ninjutsu in here is a good idea...

Discussions like these take a lot of energy and time, and seem to always end in the people who offer their opinions and historical comments as being labeled snobby, wrong and elitist. It isn't worth it...


Hi Nathan,

I'm not sure if you are refering to me here. :wave:

Anyway, here is to everyone :toast:

No hard feelings

Nathan Scott
28th March 2002, 20:59
Hello Mr. Kohler,

Not at all. My comments were truly intended to be general. :toast: (beer sounds good right now)

Regards,

Rennis
28th March 2002, 21:53
You stated SEVERAL founders of iai, can you name ALL of them? I only know of one and that is Katayama Hokinokami Hisayasu. This is in the Shinden Fudo ryu lineage. And as far as I know, he was associated with many schools.

Woah! There a new one for me. Mr. Kohler, could you point me toward any references for that list that claim (Katayama Hisayasu), preferably published ones rather than net based ones. Katayama Hisayasu's name pops up in a few ryu, but not that many and this is the first I have heard of it regarding Shinden Fudo ryu.

Thanks,

Rennis Buchner

George Kohler
28th March 2002, 22:46
It is in the BRDJ 1978 edition under Shinden Fudo Ryu dakentaijutsu.

Rennis
29th March 2002, 02:35
It is in the BRDJ 1978 edition under Shinden Fudo Ryu dakentaijutsu.

Thanks, I found that myself after I posted the question actually. Does anyone have any other references for this besides the Daijiten? Any idea of the source materials this came from or any other historical documents making this claim and their dates? Also where was this ryu transmitted historically and in particular in the period from say 1575-1625.

Having this sort of information would make things clearer, but for the moment, to my eyes Katayama Hisayasu simply looks like a random name added to the list after the fact by someone trying to soup up their lineage. The listing in the Daijiten lists Hisayasu as the head of the ryu in the Bunroku period (1592-1595). Hisayasu is said to have gained the insights that enabled him to found his own ryu (Katayama ryu) around New Years 1595 at which time he was only about 19 years old max. Therefore if he was heading Shinden Fudo ryu in the Bunroku period it was while he was in his teens (approx. 17-20) after which he then ditched the whole thing for his own school and never made any mention of it in any of the documents pretaining to his own school nor to any of his successors. Historical documents of the school (and yes some of these date back to Katayama Hisayasu's time) are pretty specific that Hisayasu learn from his uncle Katayama Shoan and the only ryu which Katayama ryu is known to have any direct influence from is Takenouchi ryu in the grappling area (popular sources state he was also a student of Hayashizaki Jinsuke, but that seems to be a fairly modern misconception and there is no historical evidence at all to support it. All of the serious researchers I have worked with have assured me the two have no connection what so ever). Katayama ryu and Hoki ryu have a very well preserved and extensive paper trail of historical documents and none of then ones I have copies of, have seen, nor have any of the researchers I have talked with have ever mentioned anything about Katayama Hisayasu in connection with a Shinden Fudo ryu, so the whole thing seems pretty iffy to me. Further information, especially the areas the ryu was transmitted in the period between 1575-1625 would obviously help clarify the likelihood of such claims, but at the moment they seen pretty unlikely to me.

Well that ended up being alot longer than I intended...

Best regards,
Rennis Buchner

Jerry Johnson
29th March 2002, 04:04
I know this is wrong of me and is out of my league to poke in. But as a lurker on this thread, I think things have come full circle on this topic, in the sense (with no disrespect) to finding a solution. That is this controversy (probably the greatest and most noted in martial arts history) is as fresh now as it was 30+/- years ago. And that is, is modern Ninjitsu for real? What keeps this topic fresh is the muscle of debate and popularity. All that I am saying is that the controversy is huge, spreading to all four corners of the world and it is as fresh and emotional as ever. It is intriguing and baffling. The appeal of the controversy is awesome, the notoriety is a phenomena n itís self. . It truly is one of the great mysteries in the martial arts.

Over the years there is more and more people partaking on either side of it . More and more people researching it, more and more people taking it. More and more people becoming aware of Ninjitsu and the controversy. The whole thing is appealing and interesting. There is nothing like a good controversy over a mystery, or something that seems unsolvable. I have been lurking on this controversy since the 80's. myself and I am still lurking!

Jim_Jude
30th March 2002, 13:19
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hello Mr. Kohler,

Not at all. My comments were truly intended to be general. :toast: (beer sounds good right now)

Regards,

Mr. Scott,
I looked at your website. Especially enjoyed the article on Shugyo Renshu
http://www.tsuki-kage.com/shugyo.html
It's definitely inspiring! Thank you...:smilejapa

Nathan Scott
31st March 2002, 20:12
Mr. Judy,

Thanks for the encouraging review. I'm still not happy with the flow and format of the essay, but hopefully it is not to hard to get through!

I'm overdue to give it some more attention anyway.

Regards,

Joel Simmons
1st April 2002, 20:35
Alohas,

Mr. Kohler - I did not say that the BRDJ was a primary source. I said that it was a source outside of the Genbukan/Bujinkan, which in a historical sense, makes it relevant. Of course every manuscript is going to have mistakes...just as some of the documents the Genbukan/Bujinkan may have regarding the age and lineage of Takamatsu. As for the comic book character names...I'm sorry, I'll have to go ask my sensei to read the names for me. I do not read kanji. However, someone claiming a Minamoto lineage...without their lineage being documented anywhere else as having connection to the Minamoto is HIGHLY suspect. You do know who the Minamoto were?

Looking in the BRDJ with my sensei, Takamatsu's lineage has all sorts of interesting dead ends and jumps and gaps between practitioners. Yes, some of the people listed in the lineage probably were ninja...that doesn't mean Takamatsu had a direct lineage to them. I could just as easily put together a lineage for myself tracing my roots back to Leif Erikson. Throw in a famous person here, one there, couple of generations missing...no problem. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't float. The original intent of this post was to figure out who the ninja were. Were they samurai? If so, why don't they have a documented lineage? Were the religious outcasts? Well, most monks of the time were government sponsored and had their own temple SOMEWHERE, even if they were out in the styx with just one daimyo holding them up. What segment of the society did the ninja originate from? If you can answer that, then you should be able to research your argument more thoroughly. As it is, nobody is for sure where they came from.

All I can say is that lineage seems to be everything in Japan. I asked about this in another forum and compared to the susceptibility of Chinese arts to branch off rather quickly and not care about lineage. Since a verifiable lineage is so important for ANYTHING in Japan, you would think that someone claiming a lineage in something as controversial as ninjutsu would have bulletproof documentation.

As for the picture of Takamatsu - maybe he went to Okinawa and laid out in the sun too long...? :D You got monks in Tibet (India now) who have stayed inside for large amounts of their lifetime, and when they are 90 they look 19. I don't know...can we really guess a man's age by looking at pictures?

As was posted earlier, it seems rather redundant to try and have an academic discussion about this subject. I have my viewpoints and other people have theirs. We have pretty well butchered the hell out of this post and I am willing to drop it.

....until some mysterious scroll pops up somewhere...

Finny
2nd April 2002, 02:27
Mr Muromoto- I don't want it to seem like I'm casting aspersions on the veracity of Draegers comments (believe me I'm not), I just wanted to try to balance the argument out by highlighting the fact that this evidence is heresay.

And Janty and all the others- If all Hatsumi had to do was show photos and give some scroll for carbon dating, why wasn't he allowed into the organisations?

I don't ask this with any disrespect, but it seems to me all the booj people come in here and say "well if you knew the REAL truth...."
But if the real truth is so conclusive, why has there been controversy surrounding this subject for so long?

And why is it kept secret?
If its all so clear to the people in the Bujinkan, why cant they clarify for the rest of us? Why cant any of you post a list of the names claimed in the lineage so someone else can have a look? Why cant anyone comment on the fact that the Togakure has had 34 sokes, when no other koryu in existence has had more than 20-odd?

They may sound like pointed questions, but this is only because they point to the heart of the issue we're discussing, and like I said, if its so straightforward, why is there the controversy, why not just clear it all up?

With respect, Brendan Finn:nin:

Joel Simmons
2nd April 2002, 02:30
Alohas,

Janty - Please reread my post. I did not say that my sensei told me this, which he heard from so and so, who heard from so and so, who once knew Mr. Draeger in a former life. What I said, is that my sensei was showing me in the Bugei Ryuha, the lineage that Takamatsu claims. The Bugei Ryuha is an outside analysis of many martial arts traditions of Japan. The people who wrote it were not singling out any specific traditions to elevate or undermine.

As for Hatsumi's authentic documentation, what's the name of the governing board that oversees all the koryu in Japan? Honestly, I forget, I'm not trying to be an ass here. Hatsumi took his (all) scrolls to these people because HE wanted to have some sort of outside verification to show to people who questioned his lineage. After reviewing his scrolls, the organization denied his request to have bujinkan ninjutsu listed as koryu. Yes, he can trace his lineage to Takamatsu without a doubt, but beyond that...things didn't meet par.

As for Takamatsu making up names and traditions and so forth: why not? Look at the period in which he lived and learned (supposing he was alive then). The Meiji restoration was a period of intense nationalism and a revival of all things indigenously Japanese ( i.e.-gov't Shinto) were sponsored whether they had historical grounding or not. It would have been very easy for him to claim a lineage that went beyond the horrible Tokugawa bakufu, stretching back to times of Japanese history that inspire nationalism. Having a Minamoto lineage holder would do wonders for his credibility and attractiveness. The Minamotos were a very old family that helped establish much of the social and political norms of Japan that would follow for the next millennia or so. Talk about inspiration! I think the oldest documented koryu is from the 14th century, Minamoto Hachiman, who Takamatsu claims in his lineage, lived at least 4 centuries prior to the oldest documentable koryu. How is it, that no other martial tradition from that period can trace a lineage to that man, who was deified as Hachimantaro: the Minamoto family's god of war? Obviously there were martial traditions in use at that time, iaijutsu and so forth did not just "appear." Speaking of iai, Katayama Hoki no Kami, the founder of Hoki-ryu iaijutsu, is claimed within Takamatsu's lineage. Again, Takamatsu included infamous names in his lineage during a time of extreme nationalism and worship of all things purely Japanese. As you say, what on Earth would a respectable Samurai have to do with a ninjutsu lineage, he would never admit to it. So somehow, Takamatsu discovered that these illustrious martial artists were secretly involved with ninjutsu...but nobody else...even other historically documented ninjutsu families...knew anything about this? :rolleyes:

So Hatsumi just tells people what they want to hear, eh? So I'm assuming he just tells his students and followers what they want to hear as well? You realize how flawed that logic is, I hope. According to my "very reliable source" who was an acquaintance of Mr. Draeger, Hatsumi told Draeger that he was "reconstructing" ninjutsu. Hatsumi admitted that he did not have historical lineage connecting himself to historical ninjutsu families. Another thing I was told is that when Quentin Chambers wrote his stick fighting book with Hatsumi, Chambers could not get a straight answer out of Hatsumi regarding the kata. One moment, the kata would be this, the next moment it was something else. Apparently, Hatsumi could not say with conviction that "this kata is from such and such ryu, here is the lineage."

You're right that the winners always write the history. So wouldn't you think that some of the people Takamatsu writes in his lineage, who WERE the winners, would not be ashamed to admit their involvement in ninjutsu? Yet, if ninjutsu was so secretive and "hush hush", why are there several hundred if not thousand people practicing it today? Would a ninjutsu soke really compromise his hermitic/esoteric way of life (as is claimed in the Nine Traditions book of Hatsumi's) and convictions to teach hordes of people such a deadly art?

I have to go make dinner. Believe whatever you want to hear.

Joel Simmons
2nd April 2002, 02:41
Mr. Finn -

Thank you for clearly stating what every non-Bujinkan/Genbukan person is trying to ask.

Jeffery Brian Hodges
2nd April 2002, 05:33
Dear Mr. Simmons,
Excuse the intrusion forum, I was hopinig to discuss some of the recent post comments.


What I said, is that my sensei was showing me in the Bugei Ryuha, the lineage that Takamatsu claims. The Bugei Ryuha is an outside analysis of many martial arts traditions of Japan. The people who wrote it were not singling out any specific traditions to elevate or undermine.>>

Yes these sources of the Bugei ryu-ha Daitijen also list Togakure ryu as a ninjutsu ryu-ha and Gyokko ryu as a Ninpo ryu-ha. The book does acknowledge the Takamatsu arts to be connected to Ninpo.


As for Hatsumi's authentic documentation, what's the name of the governing board that oversees all the koryu in Japan? Honestly, I forget, I'm not trying to be an ass here. Hatsumi took his (all) scrolls to these people because HE wanted to have some sort of outside verification to show to people who questioned his lineage. After reviewing his scrolls, the organization denied his request to have bujinkan ninjutsu listed as koryu. Yes, he can trace his lineage to Takamatsu without a doubt, but beyond that...things didn't meet par.>>

The Togakure, Gyokko ryu,Kumogakure, etc, were primarily based on kuden transmission. The physical skill still remain. Mr. Hatsumi is soke of Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu(you are familiar with kukishin ryu as a koryu?) Kukishin ryu contains a scroll called ryusen no maki which contains shinobijutsu, so I think this is par. What exactly happened at this meeting or Mr. Hatsumi's reasons is not known unless you were there at the actual event, everyone has two sides to a story.


As for Takamatsu making up names and traditions and so forth: why not? Look at the period in which he lived and learned (supposing he was alive then>>

Now no offense Mr. Simmons but this is one I can not help to get a bit peeved over, not so much the fact about the names and traditions on the scrolls, but to imply that Takamatsu sensei would lie about his age as being that much older. Once again I would like to remind you Kukishin ryu is a koryu, listed on the Kukishin ryu website there is a historical picture of Takamatsu sensei and Iwami Nangaku at a historic embu in around 1919, he is over 5 years old here
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html


Having a Minamoto lineage holder would do wonders for his credibility and attractiveness>>

Yes it would, however so would the family Kuki, who's original nake was Nakatomi, one of the oldest families in Japan, and the connection is verifiable.



Hatsumi told Draeger that he was "reconstructing" ninjutsu. Hatsumi admitted that he did not have historical lineage connecting himself to historical ninjutsu families>>

Hold on friend, what friend, whats his name? His connection to Draeger. Gettin to be a he said, she said game.


Another thing I was told is that when Quentin Chambers wrote his stick fighting book with Hatsumi, Chambers could not get a straight answer out of Hatsumi regarding the kata. One moment, the kata would be this, the next moment it was something else. Apparently, Hatsumi could not say with conviction that "this kata is from such and such ryu, here is the lineage.">>

Now this is pretty funny, its almost in league with the Takamatsu sensei being born in 1983 or whatever it was you said ;)
Now your basically saying that Mr. Hatsumi didn't know the kata names of Kukishin ryu because he didn't tell Quentin Chanmbers. Do you utterly realize, how many X-Kan people there are that know Kukishin ryu hanbo kata and CAN tell you where they come from, and funny thing is the information came from Takamatsu sensei. Hello, Mr. Hatsumi trained with him for 15 years, i think he taught him a hanbo kata or two. I've never really cared for the way Mr. Hatsumi played kyojitsu tenkan with some people, but it doesn't take Sho Kosugi to see, he wasn't tellin this guy jack.


Yet, if ninjutsu was so secretive and "hush hush", why are there several hundred if not thousand people practicing it today? Would a ninjutsu soke really compromise his hermitic/esoteric way of life (as is claimed in the Nine Traditions book of Hatsumi's) and convictions to teach hordes of people such a deadly art?>>

Times obviously change, one bullet and you dead now. There is no need for all the secrecy in modern times.



Why cant anyone comment on the fact that the Togakure has had 34 sokes, when no other koryu in existence has had more than 20-odd?>>

Hi Brendan, good point, but you would agree with me that Katori Shinto ryu is probably the best known oldest ryu-ha in existence right? Yet in its scrolls, it mentions other schools of the time, implying there were others older, with that in mind how is it unthinkable for their to be ryu-ha with 34 sokes?


sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho

shinbushi
2nd April 2002, 19:34
Originally posted by Finny
I don't ask this with any disrespect, but it seems to me all the booj people come in here and say "well if you knew the REAL truth...."
But if the real truth is so conclusive, why has there been controversy surrounding this subject for so long?

Don't take the Jantys of the world to be mainstream Bujinkan with 100,000 worldwide, very few post on the net and the ones that know the least post the most.
For the most part Soke now does not care if he is in the Koryu orgs or not. At one time maybe he did, it might have been during his early years as Soke when he was still trying to prove to himself that he was worthy of the title, and felt a need to be in the orgs.

Joel Simmons
2nd April 2002, 19:58
Shinbushi -

Thank you for the mature and straightforward answer. It is refreshing to have a discussion with someone who does not become overly defensive and resort to weaving around the facts.

Rennis
2nd April 2002, 21:30
because the only real fact is, this thread has nothing but speculation with second and third hand info that has been so changed, it's almost as though more BS was added to it.


Sorry but not all of this thread is based on second and third hand info heard from a guy who heard it from somebody's sensei's aunt's dog. My info on Katayama Hisayasu based directly on historical documents of his ryu which I obtained by going directly to the museum in which they are housed and making copies of them. My opinions are my own, but they are based on something factual and real which I personally handled, read, own copies of, and have discussed at length with other researchers and experts in the area.

Best regards,
Rennis Buchner

Joel Simmons
3rd April 2002, 02:34
Alohas,

I propose this thread be closed as it has become obvious to most that the original question has not been nor ever will be answered.


Originally Posted by Tatsumaru>>

"The ninja has a lot of theories now a days , and noone is certain of wich one is the real thing , some day ninjas were wondering priests who were being chased and peasants who didnt liked the goverment etc... , others say ninjas were regular samurai just on espionage missions but in the day they were just samurais and at night of course as usual swat team does , they did a little stealth movements as spies , some say according to ninja scrolls , ninjas always managed to kill hundreds of samurais without ninjas having a casuality , but what of all the real thing is the correct one ? theres nothing that can prove that the ninjas scrolls really have a history or that are real. others say ninjutsu just borned from peasant's ideas because they like legends and entertainment."


In liu of the recent mud-slinging contest...we have accomplished nothing. So, until it can be displayed to the non-ninjutsu persons residing in the MA world why we don't get "it" yet, ninjutsu people DO get "it", this thread is going in circles.

Ahui hou,
Joel Simmons