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Tatsumaru
10th March 2002, 06:27
Hey all , you should all take a look at this ueshiba's veridic stories , could be inspiring for you all.

http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/Aikido/StoriesFounder.html

:)

P Goldsbury
10th March 2002, 14:35
Originally posted by Tatsumaru
Hey all , you should all take a look at this ueshiba's veridic stories , could be inspiring for you all.

http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/Aikido/StoriesFounder.html

:)

I do not want to cast doubt on the veracity of the 'stories', but I note that they have all been quoted, or 'lifted', from copyrighted publications. The Carleton web site does not acknowledge any permission given to reproduce these extracts, yet copyrights the reproduction of these same stories. Or is it just the English translation that has been copyrighted (in the case of the material written by Gozo Shioda Sensei)?

Best regards,
_______________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

Steven Malanosk
10th March 2002, 20:33
Has anyone ever seen the " unedited" version of the documentary that was done many years ago at the AiKiKai Hombu, in Japan, by a western company, in which Tohei Sensei acceptes a friendly challenge from one of the crew members?

Steven Malanosk
11th March 2002, 00:25
I’ll begin by saying that I have nothing against Tohei, so please just see this as historical fact, and not malicious malcontention.

In the original televised documentary, Tohei Sensei, is chided with a friendly challenge, by one of the crew members of the western documentary camera crew.

The bulk of the match, consisted of the crewman, gorillaing Tohei, and a sloppy encounter lasts all too long. The Uke does not respond to Nage as in the consentual throwing that one is used to seeing, and after awhile, as already mentioned, Tohei ends the encounter with a Shime Waza.

The edited version, is much shorter………………………………………………………..

Chris Li
11th March 2002, 00:51
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
From what I've been able to gather from people that were there at the time, the split was precipitated by different ideas about growing aikido, who they were in their respective roles (highly charismatic chief instructor vs. low key heir to the family business) all exacerbated by their interpersonal dynamic. If you do a search on "Gladstein" or something like that on the AJ or ATM sites, you'll find an article that gives the fellow's first-hand recollections of the final blow-up which occurred in Hawaii.

A couple of my instructors were there also. One said that what struck him was how K. Ueshiba kept on apologizing for Tohei afterwards, asking that people please forgive him. Another one said that as Tohei stopped right in front of him as he was walking out and said something like "You're coming with me, right?".

In any case I'm sure that the whole thing was aggravated by the fact that they were married to sisters, but I think that you have the basic thread right - they had very different (and in some ways incompatible) ideas about how they wanted to direct the growth of Aikido in the future. The irony is that Tohei could probably have left hombu but stayed under the Aikikai umbrella while still doing exactly what he's doing today, just like so many other Aikikai folks have their own widely varying styles.

Best,

Chris

sanskara
20th March 2002, 04:14
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk
I’ll begin by saying that I have nothing against Tohei, so please just see this as historical fact, and not malicious malcontention.

In the Spirit of historical fact, please remember that the challenge in question was far from an ordinary match. According to several individuals who were present at the time, Tohei was prohibited from making any offensive movements by Ueshiba, who believed that the power of Aikido for defense would win out over any attack launched by the journalist.

Secondly, as someone who's seen the unedited version of the footage more than once, I draw a very different conclusion than you do. It looks to me as if Tohei succeeds in throwing down his attacker over and over again; then later jumps in and pulls the guy down to the ground after tiring of the game, then pinning him by extending his thumb into the front of the guy's throat (not the same thing as a choke, by the way.)

Furthermore, it might be tempting to cast dispersions on Tohei's abilities as an Aikidoka after watching the film (especially if one is expecting disembodied Ki to make an appearance), but given the circumstances, I'm not sure what more you could expect from anyone in that same situation: Tohei effectively dispatches his opponent, he stays within the rules set by Ueshiba (for the most part)--despite being put on the spot to take the challenge without much warning, and those who were present continued afterwards to tell stories of his greatness and to take pride in the fact that he trained them in Aikido as the then acting Chief Instructor of Hombu.

More importantly, how many other major figures in Aikido received both the 10th Dan from Ueshiba and put their credibility on the line time and time again by taking challengers, both in a formal and informal capacity? I'm coming up with none. Maybe someone's slipped my mind. Tohei was chosen to take on the journalist for a reason, just as he was chosen to disseminate Aikido to the U.S., despite the often greater size and strength of Americans, versus your average Japanese citizen of the time. So, either Koichi Tohei is pretty damn good at Aikido, or Morihei Ueshiba has pretty poor judgement.

Steven Malanosk
20th March 2002, 04:51
Never said he wasn't, "pretty damn good.":smilejapa

sanskara
20th March 2002, 21:14
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk
Never said he wasn't, "pretty damn good.":smilejapa

Well, no offense to you, Steven, but from time to time in forums like this, someone will make much of the contents of that particular video clip, especially since the pool of individuals frequenting boards like this who have actually been on the receiving end of Tohei's technique is very small. And I feel that the "much" is largely misunderstood and overblown.

The problem is that although the footage is widely circulated via Aiki News, the context of the challenge and the rules governing Tohei's response are not widely known. Otherwise, I wouldn't take the time to post, I'd just go back to reading.

Let's draw an analogy: suppose the stories surrounding Royce Gracie's abilities were legendary, but largely undocumented by footage that was available to the casually inquiring public. Now, suppose that someone releases a film of Royce's match with the once viewed as "second-rate" Jiujitsu competitor, Wallid Ismael. We see Royce get choked unconcious, lose the match, and then all of the other rumors about his extraordinary skills are ignored, on the basis that they must be an exaggeration.

Now, the analogy here between Tohei and Gracie is not a perfect one, as Tohei did indisputably win the match that took place in the old American documentary, whereas, Royce clearly lost his bout with Ismael. Nevertheless, one can see how neither party demonstrated their best work in these situations, that are now frozen in time for the world to evaluate ad nauseum.

In the case of Tohei, I've seen him do better, but it's impossible to gauge the effect of the limits placed upon him by the context of the contest in question. Given that at one time Tohei successfully fielded a challenge against seven Yudansha-level Judoka, attacking him simultaneously, upon his arrival in the States (all of whom were bigger than him, so the story goes), and that this was also captured on film, but has not been acquired (to my knowledge) by Aiki News for public distribution, nevermind the fact that he was such a prominent figure in the inception and dissemination of Aikido, I'm merely suggesting we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

And that, assuming that we have no other experience with Tohei's competency in Aikido, which is not the case with me at least. I don't know if it describes your situation, although, I suspect you've never met Koichi Tohei in person, much less been thrown by him. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

szczepan
21st March 2002, 02:20
In that time K.Tohei was 8th dan and most powerfull aikidoka after M.Ueshiba.
American journalist, was an amateur judoka, not even 6th kyu.

Giving such big difference of training level, one can expect, that Tohei sensei will throw him with one finger (as he did during his many demo with his ukes ;)
Instead, we could see sort of american wrestling, but on amateur level :laugh:

I wonder, how K.Tohei could perform against someone on his (8th dan)level, ie: Kimura sensei from Kodokan Judo :saw:

Steven Malanosk
21st March 2002, 02:48
Mr. Bostwick,

When mentioning shobu, it is immanent, that both the more colorful as well as the ones we would like to forget, will be brought up.

As to if I ever saw Tohei Sensei in person, yes I have.

I saw him at a NY AiKiKai function with Yamada Sensei, many years ago.

Once again, I did not intend the mentioning as a slur against Shin Shin Toitsu, The Ki Society, or Tohei Sensei.

I am not an AiKiDoKa, per say, so my view is historical, not political.

As to his greatness, I never doubted his technical ability.

No one achieved the level of the Meijin Ueishiba.

Although in my opinion, Shioda Sensei, came close.

Steven Malanosk
21st March 2002, 02:51
Forgive the misspelling of the Uyeshiba name.:smilejapa

Steven Malanosk
21st March 2002, 02:54
Hey! You guys misspell it also!

According to Tohei Sensei's book, "What is Aikido?," it is spelled UYESHIBA.

Whats up with that????????????????????????????????

Chris Li
21st March 2002, 03:28
Originally posted by szczepan
In that time K.Tohei was 8th dan and most powerfull aikidoka after M.Ueshiba.

Well, he was probably the most prominent aikidoka after M. Ueshiba at the time. Whether or not he was the most powerful is really anybody's guess, but there were a number of other people that I'd consider as well (maybe even consider first). It's far from a forgone conclusion.

Best,

Chris

szczepan
21st March 2002, 20:18
Originally posted by Chris Li


Well, he was probably the most prominent aikidoka after M. Ueshiba at the time. Whether or not he was the most powerful is really anybody's guess, but there were a number of other people that I'd consider as well (maybe even consider first). It's far from a forgone conclusion.

Best,

Chris

You'd consider who? Tomiki sensei?...you don't think about G.Shioda do you? I recently saw a tape with him from 50 ties and was very disapointed...

Chris Li
21st March 2002, 21:29
Originally posted by szczepan

You'd consider who? Tomiki sensei?...you don't think about G.Shioda do you? I recently saw a tape with him from 50 ties and was very disapointed...

Of the biggies? Tomiki, Mochizuki, and yes, Shioda. I haven't seen any Shioda tapes from the fifties, but I saw him live much later and he was, IMO, pretty hot stuff. There are also the less prominent people, like Sunadomari, Hikitsuchi, Shirata, Bansen Tanaka and others that come to mind.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
22nd March 2002, 03:28
Originally posted by szczepan
...ok, let's say, K.Tohei was one of most powerfull aikidokas at that time..


I'd agree with that. I guess that my feeling is really that it's impossible to tell at this point one way or another who was better then who. I also dislike the tendency of a lot of people to argue that someone (usually their teacher, or their teacher's teacher) was the "best" "most" "oldest" "strongest" whatever. FWIW, I've heard of more than one story of Tohei having problems in certain situations (and M. Ueshiba too, for that matter), so it's pretty hard to make this kind of judgement based on what is essentially gossip.

Best,

Chris

don
23rd March 2002, 19:52
Originally posted by Chris Li
FWIW, I've heard of more than one story of Tohei having problems in certain situations (and M. Ueshiba too, for that matter), so it's pretty hard to make this kind of judgement based on what is essentially gossip.

Yes. Tohei returned to Japan from Hawaii to inform Osensei that many of his techniques didn't work on big Americans. Osensei seemed uniterested. Shirata said the same thing. He was teaching at the bases and the Americans would simply step over him when he tried koshi nage, thus his signature ganseki otosh and the helicopter thing (what is that called anyway?)

Greg Jennings
23rd March 2002, 21:48
Originally posted by don

Shirata said the same thing. He was teaching at the bases and the Americans would simply step over him when he tried koshi nage, thus his signature ganseki otosh and the helicopter thing (what is that called anyway?)

I thought ganseki otoshi, kata garuma and the like were Hiroshi Isoyama's signature. I didn't know that Renjiro Shirata Sensei ever taught at military bases. I do know that Isoyama Sensei did.

BTW, ganseki otoshi ("boulder drop") is a well-known technique in the Iwama curriculum which is where Isoyama Sensei started his training.

Best Regards,

don
24th March 2002, 18:43
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I thought ganseki otoshi, kata garuma and the like were Hiroshi Isoyama's signature.

You're right. My mistake.

sanskara
25th March 2002, 20:53
Originally posted by don


Yes. Tohei returned to Japan from Hawaii to inform Osensei that many of his techniques didn't work on big Americans. Osensei seemed uniterested. Shirata said the same thing. He was teaching at the bases and the Americans would simply step over him when he tried koshi nage, thus his signature ganseki otosh and the helicopter thing (what is that called anyway?)

When you say that Tohei returned to Japan from Hawaii to inform O'Sensei that HIS techniques didn't work on big Americans, are you speaking of Ueshiba's techniques or Tohei's?

The reason I ask is that I'm familiar with many of the parties involved in Tohei's first excursion to Hawaii, and they have unilaterally stated that Tohei had no problems (that they could see, anyway) dealing with attackers and challengers there, and that by the time he demonstrated Aikido in Hawaii, he had already altered many of Ueshiba's techniques, based on his belief that some of the movements were collisionary and could be effectively resisted by someone stronger.

This info not only comes from present and past Ki no Kenkyukai members (who may have a biased bent), but also some Judoka who were present, and others who did not practice martial arts at all. Consequently, I'm interested in further clarification of your above statement, as it's not clear from the wording whether or not Ueshiba's techniques 'failed', or if you've heard some stories from that era of Tohei being bested in challenges as a result of his own interpretations of Aikido.

Either way, it's worth discussing. If you (or Chris, for that matter) have some info, do share. You see, if Tohei was unable to field challenges effectively upon his first visit to Hawaii, regardless of whether his Aiki application was more a product of his own endeavors or copying Ueshiba's form verbatim, it would have retarded the growth of Aikido in the U.S. considerably, as rumors of his failures would have spread far and wide in the martial arts world, preceding his appearance in a geographic region--this didn't happen to my knowledge, however. Not to mention that if Aikido was ineffective against Americans in Hawaii, many hoplologists would be incorrect in their public literary recollections and narratives of that period regarding the inception of Aikido in the Pacific rim, which seem to cast a favorable light on Tohei and his abilities, prior to the great split, when he was then subsequently written out of the history almost altogether.

Chris Li
25th March 2002, 22:31
Originally posted by sanskara
Either way, it's worth discussing. If you (or Chris, for that matter) have some info, do share. You see, if Tohei was unable to field challenges effectively upon his first visit to Hawaii, regardless of whether his Aiki application was more a product of his own endeavors or copying Ueshiba's form verbatim, it would have retarded the growth of Aikido in the U.S. considerably, as rumors of his failures would have spread far and wide in the martial arts world, preceding his appearance in a geographic region--this didn't happen to my knowledge, however. Not to mention that if Aikido was ineffective against Americans in Hawaii, many hoplologists would be incorrect in their public literary recollections and narratives of that period regarding the inception of Aikido in the Pacific rim, which seem to cast a favorable light on Tohei and his abilities, prior to the great split, when he was then subsequently written out of the history almost altogether.

I haven't heard that he had any particular problems in Hawaii, but I have heard that he altered the way that he did some of the techniques in order to deal with the larger American students. I did hear (from one of the people that were there) that one of the major Hawaiian Judo instructors got pissed off at his students because they were "falling like leaves" before Tohei (meaning that he was kicking their collective butts).

Interestingly, I recall an interview (I don't remember where I saw it) with Tohei in which he said that he found that he had to alter Ikkyo in order to make it work in Hawaii, but that when he got back to Japan and looked at M. Ueshiba again he found that Ueshiba was actually doing Ikkyo the way that Tohei had "discovered" in Hawaii. In this light it makes a lot of sense. I often go different places where a new viewpoint helps me to "discover" things only to go back and find that it wasn't something my instructor wasn't doing, it was something that I hadn't been able to see my instructor doing.

Best,

Chris

don
26th March 2002, 20:21
Originally posted by sanskara
When you say that Tohei returned to Japan from Hawaii to inform O'Sensei that HIS techniques didn't work on big Americans, are you speaking of Ueshiba's techniques or Tohei's?

From http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=861:

"When I went to Hawaii and tried to use the techniques I had learned from Ueshiba Sensei, I found that many of them were ineffective. What Sensei said and what he did were two different things. For example, despite the fact that he himself was very relaxed, he told his students to do sharp, powerful techniques. When I got to Hawaii, however, there were guys as strong as Akebono and Konishiki [two well-known Hawaiian sumo wrestlers] all over the place. There’s just no way to use force or power to prevail against that kind of strength.

"When you’re firmly pinned or controlled, the parts of your body that are pinned directly simply can’t move. All you can do is start a movement from those parts that you can move, and the only way to do that successfully is to relax. Even if your opponent has you with all his strength, you can still send him flying if you’re relaxed when you do your throw. This was something I experienced first-hand during that trip to Hawaii, and when I returned to Japan and had another look at Ueshiba Sensei, I realized that he did indeed apply his techniques from a very relaxed state.

"While I was with Ueshiba Sensei I was also studying under Tempu Nakamura. It was he who first taught me that "the mind moves the body." Those words struck me like a bolt of electricity and opened my eyes to the whole realm of aikido. From that point on I began to rework all of my aikido techniques. I threw away techniques that went against logic and selected and re-organized those I felt were usable.

"Now my aikido consists of about thirty percent Ueshiba Sensei’s techniques and seventy percent my own.

"You can probably say that Hawaii was where I did much of my most important training (shugyo). The reason I went there in the first place, by the way, was at the invitation if the Nishikai, a group devoted to the Nishi Method of Health. Their intentions, however, had something to do with pitting my martial arts abilities against some pro-wrestler and using the proceeds from the event to build their assembly hall. I didn’t know about that until just before my departure, and by then it was too late to refuse, so I resigned myself to it and went anyway.

"The Hawaiians were pretty frank in expressing their first impressions of me. They said, "Gee, Sensei, you’re pretty young, aren’t you?" Then they said, "Gee, Sensei, you’re pretty small...." Then they got to the point and said, "Sensei, are you sure you can really do it?" I figured the only thing to do was to show them what I could do and let them see for themselves. After that all the local martial artists and wrestlers became my students. The Hawaii Aikikai was established eight months later, and I was also made an honorary lifetime captain in the local police force. Ueshiba Sensei was never tested like that in his whole life."

szczepan
26th March 2002, 21:52
Originally posted by don


From http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=861:

When I got to Hawaii, however, there were guys as strong as Akebono and Konishiki [two well-known Hawaiian sumo wrestlers] all over the place. There’s just no way to use force or power to prevail against that kind of strength.


I'm very interested if K.Tohei sensei did sparring against Akebono and Konishiki?

Any date, witnesses, photos, films?

Or it is only urban legend?

thx

Chris Li
26th March 2002, 22:40
Originally posted by szczepan


I'm very interested if K.Tohei sensei did sparring against Akebono and Konishiki?

Any date, witnesses, photos, films?

Or it is only urban legend?

thx

I think that he was saying that there were people just as strong as Akebono and Konishiki in Hawaii. They would both have been children when he was there.

Best,

Chris

O'Neill
27th March 2002, 18:17
Let's not forget Inoue Noriaki, who was superior to all of the other students. They say that he moved just like Ueshiba did during the aiki budo and aiki jujutsu years. I doubt that the 50's aikido crowd could ever come close to the pre war guys like- shioda (especially), mochizuki,or shirata. The art had lost much of it's combativeness by then.

Aiki Budo
6th April 2002, 04:44
Originally posted by don


From http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=861:

"When I went to Hawaii and tried to use the techniques I had learned from Ueshiba Sensei, I found that many of them were ineffective. What Sensei said and what he did were two different things. For example, despite the fact that he himself was very relaxed, he told his students to do sharp, powerful techniques. When I got to Hawaii, however, there were guys as strong as Akebono and Konishiki [two well-known Hawaiian sumo wrestlers] all over the place. There’s just no way to use force or power to prevail against that kind of strength.

"When you’re firmly pinned or controlled, the parts of your body that are pinned directly simply can’t move. All you can do is start a movement from those parts that you can move, and the only way to do that successfully is to relax. Even if your opponent has you with all his strength, you can still send him flying if you’re relaxed when you do your throw. This was something I experienced first-hand during that trip to Hawaii, and when I returned to Japan and had another look at Ueshiba Sensei, I realized that he did indeed apply his techniques from a very relaxed state.

"While I was with Ueshiba Sensei I was also studying under Tempu Nakamura. It was he who first taught me that "the mind moves the body." Those words struck me like a bolt of electricity and opened my eyes to the whole realm of aikido. From that point on I began to rework all of my aikido techniques. I threw away techniques that went against logic and selected and re-organized those I felt were usable.

"Now my aikido consists of about thirty percent Ueshiba Sensei’s techniques and seventy percent my own.

"You can probably say that Hawaii was where I did much of my most important training (shugyo). The reason I went there in the first place, by the way, was at the invitation if the Nishikai, a group devoted to the Nishi Method of Health. Their intentions, however, had something to do with pitting my martial arts abilities against some pro-wrestler and using the proceeds from the event to build their assembly hall. I didn’t know about that until just before my departure, and by then it was too late to refuse, so I resigned myself to it and went anyway.

"The Hawaiians were pretty frank in expressing their first impressions of me. They said, "Gee, Sensei, you’re pretty young, aren’t you?" Then they said, "Gee, Sensei, you’re pretty small...." Then they got to the point and said, "Sensei, are you sure you can really do it?" I figured the only thing to do was to show them what I could do and let them see for themselves. After that all the local martial artists and wrestlers became my students. The Hawaii Aikikai was established eight months later, and I was also made an honorary lifetime captain in the local police force. Ueshiba Sensei was never tested like that in his whole life."

While that is a great article, you can also look at the other side of the coin. Hiroshi Isoyama began teaching at the Japanese Air Self Defense Forces in 1958 and his aikido would be considered to be the polar opposite of Tohei Sensei. He also had to modify some techniques that were performed on much bigger, stronger and taller Americans. But he only modified the technique not the way it was performed. In other words, he still performed very hard, sharp martial aikido but did them technically different. For instance, he found that he could not perform koshinage over the hips with Americans because they could step right over him. So, he started putting them on his shoulders when he threw them. Thus Ganseki Otoshi.

I have also heard that Tohei Sensei taught aikido much differently in Hawaii and America than he did in Japan. Someone who has talked to me by e-mail that trained in Tohei's style of aikido told me that Seagal Sensei's aikido is very similar to the way Tohei taught policemen and other Americans in Hawaii.

Just some thoughts

Mike Haber

sanskara
10th April 2002, 06:09
Originally posted by Aiki Budo

I have also heard that Tohei Sensei taught aikido much differently in Hawaii and America than he did in Japan. Someone who has talked to me by e-mail that trained in Tohei's style of aikido told me that Seagal Sensei's aikido is very similar to the way Tohei taught policemen and other Americans in Hawaii.

Just some thoughts

Mike Haber

Although, you'll definitely find more people who trained under Tohei in Hawaii who would disagree with the above statement than confirm it. From what I've seen, Tohei's teaching style really didn't change all that much over the decades (or from country to country) until he invented Taigi and Relaxed Taiso in the late 70's and moved away from the more martial aspects of Aikido. This latter shift in emphasis especially, didn't even cement itself into the U.S. Aikido culture until the late 80's early 90's--pretty recent in the large scheme of things.

As for the Seagal comment, other than having received a Shodan from Tohei, there's very little correlation between his style of Aikido and that taught by Koichi Tohei (in my opinion, at least.) This statement can be taken at least two ways: 1. Either Seagal's a poor example of Tohei's Aikido; 2. Seagal went off and did his own thing, and deserves credit for it. Either way, you'd have a tough time making a case for any similarity between Tohei and Seagal, extrinisic e-mail correspondence notwithstanding.

Aiki Budo
10th April 2002, 17:22
Well, that could be very well true but this person trains in the Ki Society under Tohei and has stated that what Tohei taught police in Hawaii is very similar to the aikido that was taught at Tenshin Bugei Gakuen when it existed in California in the 80's and early 90's. That Tohei taught a much more martial side of aikido that was very sharp and powerful compared to what we have seen from him before. Maybe this was what he was really using on the much bigger, stronger and taller Hawaiians and Americans. I know for a fact that is how Isoyama dealt with these same people at the Japanese Air Self Defense Forces as he stated in an article on aikido journal. Isoyama clearly does not teach a soft, relaxed style of aikido. He is very martial.

Mike Haber

sanskara
11th April 2002, 09:45
Originally posted by Aiki Budo
Well, that could be very well true but this person trains in the Ki Society under Tohei and has stated that what Tohei taught police in Hawaii is very similar to the aikido that was taught at Tenshin Bugei Gakuen when it existed in California in the 80's and early 90's. That Tohei taught a much more martial side of aikido that was very sharp and powerful compared to what we have seen from him before. Maybe this was what he was really using on the much bigger, stronger and taller Hawaiians and Americans. I know for a fact that is how Isoyama dealt with these same people at the Japanese Air Self Defense Forces as he stated in an article on aikido journal. Isoyama clearly does not teach a soft, relaxed style of aikido. He is very martial.

Mike Haber

I guess some opinions will differ on just what Tohei taught in Hawaii in the 50's. However, this is the first I've heard of his teachings resembling Seagal's Aikido. Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch, given the number of individuals I've had contact with over the years who were both directly under Tohei in the early stages of U.S. Aikido, and have had some sort of affiliation with Matsuoka and company. They would wince at the notion that Tohei taught one thing in the Dojo and another to those who needed to perform "real" martial arts, perhaps in a vocational capacity.

Nevertheless, I think it's important to recognize that relaxed Aikido and martial effectiveness are not mutually exclusive, quite the contrary in my experience: relaxation is a sign of comfortable skill, and that of performing effortlessly within one's level of ability, without the need to redline or push one's self to get the job done.

Unfortunately, there's a tendency in forums like this to compartmentalize Aikido practice into hard and soft, with all the generalizations that come with those labels. In reality, such classifications are largely theoretical, as a movement either works at a given time or doesn't, can be either relaxed or tense--even both.

But to reduce it to soft (ineffective) or hard (effective) seems to underscore the fact that it's all Aikido, and its ability to sway the intention of a would-be attacker is clearly under the jurisdiction of the practitioner in question, and not the style or training methodology that they claim to embody. In other words, Isoyama is effective because he's skilled in the art, same with Tohei.

A Hard or soft demonstrative/teaching style, that probably doesn't have much to do with outcome one way or the other, it's simply a tool for illustrating Aiki-related principles. And it seems like everyone who trained under Ueshiba walked away with their own means of exhibiting what they felt was important to the practice of Aikido. The second one makes the mistake of thinking that one way is best, that means they're missing out on what the rest of the art has to offer.