View Full Version : Name that choke! part 2
CEB
13th March 2002, 15:45
Name that choke number 2.
Got a new choke. Our Sensei didn’t give the name of the waza. He named it after somebody who won a bronze medal for the USA some time ago. I can’t find a picture of the technique in Kodokan Judo or in Best Judo or on the Judo Information Web Site. I am not good at describing stuff but I’ll give it a try. By providing you an excerpt from my Judo Journal.
......
Let us say I threw uke with my favorite throw Tai Otoshi. Uke is on his hands and knees. I am on Uke’s right side and I maintained my grip on his left lapel with my right hand. The choke is right there. I simply put my left armpit on the back of his neck and put all my weight downward on his neck. At same time I crank and choke him with my right hand. It is a very quick one handed type of technique. Must not be lazy and set my butt on the mat or when I do uke pins me and I lose again. Must keep my butt high put the power of my spare tire downward on uke.
.......
I hope that made sense. Maybe it does not have a name and is considered a variation of another jime waza. I am not up on all of the nomenclature. My next purchase will probably be the book Judo A-Z.
All my thanks goes out to the fine Judoka of this forum for your support.
Ben Reinhardt
13th March 2002, 16:37
Originally posted by CEB
Name that choke number 2.
Got a new choke. Our Sensei didn’t give the name of the waza. He named it after somebody who won a bronze medal for the USA some time ago. I can’t find a picture of the technique in Kodokan Judo or in Best Judo or on the Judo Information Web Site. I am not good at describing stuff but I’ll give it a try. By providing you an excerpt from my Judo Journal.
......
Let us say I threw uke with my favorite throw Tai Otoshi. Uke is on his hands and knees. I am on Uke’s right side and I maintained my grip on his left lapel with my right hand. The choke is right there. I simply put my left armpit on the back of his neck and put all my weight downward on his neck. At same time I crank and choke him with my right hand. It is a very quick one handed type of technique. Must not be lazy and set my butt on the mat or when I do uke pins me and I lose again. Must keep my butt high put the power of my spare tire downward on uke.
.......
I hope that made sense. Maybe it does not have a name and is considered a variation of another jime waza. I am not up on all of the nomenclature. My next purchase will probably be the book Judo A-Z.
All my thanks goes out to the fine Judoka of this forum for your support.
This is just a variation of Koshi Jime, which is itsself a variation of Okuri Eri Jime.
No big deal, it's a very common technique.
Ben Reinhardt
Mike Williams
13th March 2002, 16:45
Sorry, I'm afraid I can't help you with the name.
But a question - the choke is applied with Uke still on his hands and knees? Shouldn't you get him off his hands and onto his front before applying it (at which point it becomes a fairly standard collar choke - although I still can't name it :) ). From your description it sounds like you might be vulnerable to counters.
I think I'll try it tonight, and see what happens!
Cheers,
Mike
hector gomez
13th March 2002, 17:05
There are many variations of this choke but I believe
the brazilians call it the clock choke the same choke wallid ismail
choked out royce gracie with in a sport jujistsu match.The reason it
is called a clock chock is because wether you use okuri jime or
kata ha jime variation from the back once you put your weight on
his back you should be moving your legs and body around as you
apply your weight and pressure to tighten the choke.This choke
requires less force than if you just grab his collar and yank upwards
to apply it.
Hector Gomez
Jon S.
13th March 2002, 23:22
Hi,
What prevents uke from spinning to his right to relieve the pressure of the choke? Just your body weight pinning him flat on his front?
Thanks
hector gomez
14th March 2002, 02:41
Hi jon, if we are talking about the clock choke and you
are aproaching your opponnent from his right side your left knee should be in the side of his body and your right leg straight out while your chest pins down the shoulder that is closest to you.your right hand should already have the collar and your left hand can either control his left arm like kata ha jime or grab the other collar like okurijimi either way you choose you have to maintain body weight on him as you move your left leg out to start moving around him like a clock.
I would keep my head down and weight on that shoulder if you stay too
much in the center of his back rolling you over becomes very possible.
This choke is excellent in transition from standing to ground right when the opponent hits the turtle position.
Hector Gomez
MarkF
14th March 2002, 07:03
Yep, okuri eri jime. There is a pic of the way you are doing it in Kodokan Judo, I think.
Mark
Jon S.
14th March 2002, 21:32
Hi Hector,
Thank you for elaborating. The clock choke huh? Interesting. Mark is right, there is a picture of okuri eri jime as you describe in Kodokan Judo. My preference in such a situation would be ura juji jime (??? - I think). Positioning is more or less the same, except reach across and grab his right shoulder with your left hand under your right arm, and push your hands away closing the "X".
Sounds like the idea of the clock choke isn't so much which specific choke is applied, but rather maintaining good position and cranking the choke by rotating the whole body around uke. Is this a valid interpretation?
hector gomez
14th March 2002, 23:50
:confused:"ura jujime"could be, never heard of it anyway
names are not that important but I do understand the type
of choke you are reffering to, the only problem i see is by
not having bodyweight to pin him down an experienced fighter
will easily turn upwards to avoid the choke maybe I don't
understand your explanation feel free to explain again.
Hector Gomez
Jon S.
15th March 2002, 00:13
Ura juji jime: if I'm right, and you're lucky enough to have a copy of the Canon of Judo, you can find it described there. I don't always have access to one, so I can't be sure if that's the name at this time.
Like any of the juji jimes, if your grip is there, uke can roll you around like a crocodile would and you can still apply the choke - whether your on bottom or top doesn't matter. Still, uke won't try to roll to his left because that just makes the choke worse, and if you pin his gi at the right shoulder to the mat with your left hand, it will be difficult at best for him to roll to the right before he's out.
If on the knees or standing it is effective as well because it works like katahajime does (via. holding the arm) in terms of preventing uke from spinning right to neutralize the choke.
Hope it is clearer, please ask if it's not.
hector gomez
15th March 2002, 01:09
I believe we are talking about the same choke but everyone
has their different variations the clock choke in the japannese
terminology is the koshi jime like ben reffered to in a earlier
post and the original choke that I believe Ed was refferring to is
not exactly a rotational(clock) pressure type of choke but more of a pulling
controlling with the armpit that is wedged around ukes shoulder and
back.
Jon if I understand you correctly you are aproaching uke on his right side while he is on his hands and knees and you have your right hand on his left collar now please explain exactly from there how you finish?If you don't mind thanks
Hector gomez
Jon S.
15th March 2002, 05:28
Hi,
Sorry if I've caused confusion, Hector. I'm wondering if you perhaps missed my earlier question: "Sounds like the idea of the clock choke isn't so much which specific choke is applied, but rather maintaining good position and cranking the choke by rotating the whole body around uke. Is this a valid interpretation?"
When I stated that my preference in the situation would be ura juji jime(?), I didn't mean to imply that I thought ura juji jime was the clock choke per se. Of course, if my above interpretation is correct, it could be applied in the clock choke way, but like okuri eri jime or katahajime, it doesn't necessarily need to be this way (but being able to apply the "clock" technique would strengthen it).
I agree that the original choke that Ed posted wouldn't be a clock choke because it would require specific and relatively static body positioning since this is the method by which uke's ability to spin is negated. You've clarified that for me though, you say the armpit goes over the shoulder and back. My first question of the thread, regarding uke's capacity to roll out, was posted because I had the impression from the original description that the armpit was only over the back of the neck - being over the shoulder makes all the difference in my book.
As for ura juji jime: it's applicable no matter which side of uke's body you're on (so long as you are more or less behind him) as the mechanics are simple - pull the collar one way, and push the opposite shoulder the other way (just like katahajime except you 'pull' uke's same side shoulder with katahajime). From the point you described up to: reach your left hand under your right forearm and grab the gi in the vicinity above his right shoulderblade. If you can drive uke face down flat to the mat here, that's good as you can pin his right shoulder there with your left hand, and rise up over him and pull with the right hand. Another option is to straddle him or go to his opposite side and push your hands away from you, thereby closing the choke. If you find yourself obligated to remain more to uke's right side, then the choke is applied more by strength and less by technique IMO, and you're best off to seek to control his lower body from rotating to the right with your legs. Regardless of the manner in which you apply it, think to create space between you and uke to tighten it - either by pushing him away from you, or pushing yourself away from him (my preference is the latter since it takes less effort to move myself than it does to move uke).
Hope this eliminates the any confusion. :) Let me know if it hasn't.
hector gomez
15th March 2002, 11:38
Hi jon your interpretation of the the clock choke is correct
and I finally due understand your interpretation of the choke you
were trying to explain thanks ,it is definitely a good choke like
every position or submission a lot depends on what uke is giving
you and what's available at the moment all of the variations are possible I sometimes find myself with uke in this position and I might
try one variation when it does not work I have to move on to the next one to see if that works until if find a variation that everything falls in to place the weight his body position and little resistence on his part.
I believe the choke you describe would work good especially when someone tries koshi jime(clock) and cannot get their left hand under
uke left arm to secure okuri or kata ha jime then you also have this available or vice versa you can go from this one first to the other choke the great thing about these chokes is that they can all be linked together in your arsenal to have more options available, very good and thanks again for explaining in full detail.
Hector Gomez
CEB
15th March 2002, 13:53
Thanks for the great input. Good discussion as always in the Judo Forum. Yes I noticed the mechanical similarities to okuri eri jime but I'm never clear where something is a variation and when is a different technique. Okuri eri is uses 2 hands this seemed to be a major difference to me. I get to caught up in nomenclature but I find it helpful when disscussing thing with people from other dojo. My cousin Jimmy Hughes does BJJ and he said I would have a very hard time in their dojo his teacher calls everything "the thing you do". ie 'If some grabs you like this thing you do is ...'. Bad thing for us note takers. :)
I found an illustration of koshi jime and yes this is pretty much the technique. The way I practiced the choke is my arm pitgoes to the back of the neck but my torso goes across uke's shoulder. I position the body so the weight presses down I can see the rotation coming into play. It seems to be a common theme in newaza. I see this especially in osaekomi waza. I haven't done the choke in a randori type situation. We just worked in a low resistance situation where we were just learning the technique. Everybody tapped out quick once we got the hang of the choke. I'm sure I still have a little clean work to do on the technique but it is defintely going into my bag of tricks.
Its simple and effective I knew it had to be a common technique.
Thanks to everyone who took part of the disscussion.
hector gomez
15th March 2002, 14:36
Clock choke(koshi jime) heard around the world wallid chokes out royce gracie in a sport jujitsu match check it outhttp://www.valetudo.com.br/walpics.htmThis is actualy another variation.
Hector Gomez
Ben Reinhardt
18th March 2002, 04:52
Koshi Jime is also done by hooking your left arm (if right hand has collar) under uke's left armpit. Usually you pull his arm to his chest, and flatten him out. Then get your hip next to his neck (hence the name), and your legs in kesa postion.
Very common counter to various sorts of drop seoi attacks.
Kashiwazaki's book (Ippon Masterclass Series) "Shime Waza" has a lot of good variations.
Ben Reinhardt
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.