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Anders Pettersson
29th July 2000, 00:58
Hi.

Here in Sweden I here a lot about an organisation called World Kobudo Federation. I believe most members in Sweden are practitioners of jujutsu, but as I understand they take in more or less any martial art.

As for myself I have not seen much of them in action and can't really tell about their standard and the quality of what they do. But some of their members write post on some Swedish martial art forums and seem to be normal and decent people.

The only thing I think is a little strange is the name of the organisation, most arts represented are definitely not Kobudo.

What is the opinion of this organisation in other countries? such as in the US and Canada? Are the leaders legitimit in your opinion?

You can find them on <A href="http://www.worldkobudo.com">www.worldkobudo.com</A>

Anders

MarkF
29th July 2000, 09:39
Hello, Anders,
Well, you are correct in that none mentioned are truly ancient, but most are budo. Kobudo these days seems to have more meaning in the old weapons used than in the empty hand arts.

But even gendai arts carry with them *some* of the old ways. Kodokan Judo implies something old and something new. But it may be better translated as the hall/place of the school of the way. I think this may be what is meant, but I don't really know enough about them to give an informed opinion. However, since they have included arts such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as kobudo, it does make one wonder. My opinion is that I don't have one, but I will be looking it more in detail. If They have good intentions, and as long as no one gets hurt, the good student is attracted to the good teacher, this may be a way to cull students into a more traditional way of learning. But you are right to ask questions, and they most certainly are not an organization with "ancient warrior ways," that's for sure.:smash:

Yojimbo558
29th July 2000, 21:01
Hi there!

I know an instructor whose very excited about having joined this organization. So I asked him about it...from his explanation I understand fully why he's excited. But his explanation left me disappointed.

I think that if you hear that there's a seminar being put on by them and you attend you'll have a lot of fun, and maybe pick up some interesting twists to add to your bag of tricks. The seminars they teach have a number of instructors of different styles. Basically you pick which you'd like to attend etc.

Up to this point it sounds fun, and interesting to see other styles different points of view ( As you pointed out...the name of the organization is not reflective of its representatives ).

This organization disappoints me in that instead of just being a group of martial artists getting together to share their insights and discoveries with one another unfortunately also has another agenda!

The stated purpose of this organization is to provide a forum for martial artists who no longer have an instructor
but whish to continue in their ( not knowledge which would be fine... )progress. In short you pay them and these people who may not even not be apart of your system will promote you!! It's what I call legitamte-illagitamacy!
<<The reason I call it this is because it's a forum for individuals to escape telling prospective students that they haven't promoted themselves...they've been promoted by other high ranking martial artists in the organizatio...don't let the fact that those martial artists might not be apart of your system. Needless to say this is a bunch of bull and illagitamate as hell >>

If you join the organization, which as you pointed out is not Kobudo, then they give you a certificate saying that they recognize you as being legitamate! Oh joy.

The reason the instructor I know is excited about being apart of this organization, is that he's created his own system and is looking at the World Kobudo as a vehicle to promote it....

While there are several legitimate high ranking members, because of their set up, it's not a group I would join.

Eric Bookin

MarkF
30th July 2000, 08:06
Hi, Eric,
Well this is where it is nice to have someone who is more willing to investigate the stated purpose, and that is that it seems to be a "rank" rank-selling organization. If what you say is indeed true, than I would be very careful in which direction one takes when without a teacher. Certainly, it is much better to hook up with the right teacher than it is to find a style, and then a teacher who meets your approval. If this is the stated intention, than it is one from which to stay away. Eclectic styles need time and much experimentation before it is presented to the public. One thing I have found (there are exceptions, as with anything) is that these new styles quickly run out of waza in a hurry, and then attempt to throw in some techniques about which the founder knows little. There are few styles out there in which one can learn every single technique which then sends them on to new ones. When I retired from competition, I didn't need to look far to find waza I didn't know, and attempted to learn, and pass on to others. I am still finding something new and it has been thirty-seven years. What is not needed, is a new, political/business organization. There are more than enough of those.

Cheers!:wave:

Ramirez
30th July 2000, 20:09
Hello I am a member of the World Kobudo Federation in Toronto Canada,

Yojimbo558, you did not say if your friend has a ranking in a style not his own. Wally Jay and Helio Gracie both developed their own style but no one questions their legitimacy and any organization would be glad to have them as members.


Here is some information on the WKF

The head of the WKF is John Therien, a well respected martial artist with over 30 years experience instructing jiu-jitsu in Canada.

The technical head of the jiu-jitsu is Richard Morris, another well respected martial artist from the U.K.

In August the brown belts from my club will be grading in front of these two men , plus some other high ranking members of the WKF, so these will definitely be legitimate gradings.

From my own experience,
Two instructors in my club are working police officers on the Toronto police force , one instructs the new police recruits on self defence. We train at the Toronto police college.
The club is non-profit, so I pay a minimal fee, about 1/4 of what a commercial school would cost. This is to cover the use of the police college facility.

Yes we do accept belt rankings from other styles , and they are allowed to keep their belt, but to progress they have to pass the club syllabus.

I.E. a brown belt that joins form another jiu-jitsu club is allowed to be a brown belt but will have to pass the club's black belt syllabus.
I think this is preferable to other clubs that would make you re-start from white, I think the fees collected from belt gradings has a lot to do with it.

My experience at my club has been excellent. John Therien's organization also has an excellent reputation.

MarkF
31st July 2000, 09:17
Hi, Ramirez:wave:
We have this little thing at E-budo about nicknames. If your true name is Ramirez, then that is fine although a first name or initial would be helpful. Anyway, the rule is that we sign with our full name. Use the signature feature in your profile and then there will be no problem. I would have emailed you, but you do not list an address.

Anyway, Wally Jay is also a well-known judoka so whether his style is new, he still posesses his history. Helio Gracie was mainly a judoka who concentrated on grappling so a difference is not great. He also was a great showman and was not above the occasional "work" for his cause (see the Helio Gracie V Masahiko Kimura as an example). But as far as I can see, if you have a different style which is different from the one you are doing, what is the problem with starting as a beginner? If I were going to walk into a karatedo school, why would I want to wear the grade I received for my style of jujutsu?

I do not know much about World Kobudo, but the one question I have is; what is your definition and reason for calling it Kobudo when the styles I have seen on that site are anything but "ancient?" I do think it a vaid question. This is by no means, a question of purpose, as it is one of meaning. Someone did ask about this organization, and I think a good description of its services are warranted.

BTW: I seem to recall your username from another BB. Am I correct that you post on another as "Ramirez?":laugh:

Iain Richardson
31st July 2000, 09:37
Well, as a member of the World Kobudo Federation in Canada, I can tell you that it is a decent, well run organization whose members are friendly and accomodating. It is, however, not overly selective on the members front. Then again, that is kind of the philosophy of the orgainzation in the first place. Rather promoting any single art, it is an organization that allows people from different arts to interact with one another in a decent, open envirionment. By doing this, you are able to broaden your horizons with respect to martial arts in general, and maybe even find an art that you may consider practicing in the future.

However, being such an open organization can lead to an undesirable element creeping in. When I was at Capital Conquest last November (a WKF sponsored even featuring instructors from around the world), I attended one seminar in which an instructor was teaching one leg takedowns. When I saw him demonstrate the technique, it looked awkward and unnecesarily difficult. Unsure of my own judgement, I looked across the mat at my sensei. He seemed less than enhusiastic at the execution of the takedown also. Of course, being the trusting person I am, I attempted to perform said takedown and found it to be quite useless. I sat down, and the instructor began to teach a finish for the single leg takedown, it was a leg bar. I have rather flexible hips, and my partner, a black belt from my club, was unable to apply the leg bar to me. We asked to be shown the leg bar by the instructor, and he could not apply the lock to me. He tried for about 30 seconds. He then gave up and proceeded to explain to me how my knee would have poped out of it's socket had he applied any more pressure (I am quite well versed in the feeling of having your kneecap pop out of it's socket. I was not feeling it) . At this time, I suffered a spontaneous attack of viral meningitis and was forced to spend the rest of the class in the washroom waiting for it to pass.

However, I went to several other instructors whose classes I found informative, interesting, and useful, and who were clearly well versed in their respective arts. There was an excellent Russian Sambo instructor (incidentaly, he seemed to have no problem applying the leglock that was supposed to make my knee blow up)

Any orgainzation has good points and bad points, It's only a question of by how much the good points outweigh the bad, and in the case of the WKF, I would say that there are more than enough good points.

Oh, and in reference to the belts carrying across from club to club, I believe that is only the case for John Theriens Can-ryu Jiu Jitsu curriculum i.e, If you are a student of a Therien dojo, you can go to any other Therien Dojo and they will recoginze your belt ranking. Can-Ryu has become somewhat synonymous with the WKF in Canada, though. Another bad point, perhaps?

Iain Richardson

Jishin-Ryu Jiu Jitsu
(and no, I don't know Chris Bissett, so don't complain to me)

Yojimbo558
31st July 2000, 16:41
Hi there!

Like some of you, I've attended seminars that have had a format not unlike the WKF in that, there are several instructors providing different classes for you to choose from attending throughout the day.

During these seminars, I've enjoyed some of the various insights provided by the instructors from different styles.

My only gripe is any organization that allows you promotes members in rank that they're not apart of....

When I first posted this, I noted that there are some high level members of good quality. Ramirez, mentioned a few, along with members of respectable professions.

If the WKF wanted to give it's members a chance to move up in rank from ground zero based off of its own curriculum ( with it's own amalagated brand new high speed system...I would never have posted a protest ), but it's not!!

To me no matter how many high level quality martial artists choose to join or affiliate themselves with organizations like this. When you promote someone from there current rank it simply opens a can of worms. I have another friend who studied Kenpo, two of his peers greatly disappointed him when they couldn't managed to achieve their next level...so they joined an organization like the WKF where, yes you guessed it, they were promoted.

As long as groups like the WKF operate on a promote from your current rank ( it doesn't matter if they have you pass curriculm for that one level ), it cheapens martial arts. Because (( now this will enflame some...and I fully admit that not all abuse it in this manner...but some do )) it let's the unsuspecting "Jo Public", walk into a dojo and think that the style that they've selected is being taught by a legitamate what-ever-degree black belt in that system....

To "ME" this is the one unescapable fact...if you promote people from there current level to the next rank...and you do so ( not being a senior member of that system ), you are either perpetrating or participating in fraud...if these organizations wanted to pool their talents and create a new system I'd have no arguement...but that's not what they're doing!

Eric Bookin

Ramirez
31st July 2000, 18:56
Eric, I can see your point now about someone wanting to instruct. I was thinking more along the lines of a WKF member joining another WKF affiliate because of relocation or his club shutting down who wants to keep training. If the two styles of jiu-jitsu are close enough I can't see forcing a brown belt who has been training for 4 or 5 years to start from scratch re-doing basic breakfalls or hip-throws at the white belt level.

Cheers

Yojimbo558
31st July 2000, 23:07
Hi Mark,

Like I said, that's my only objection. Otherwise, the forum ( when attending their seminars or others like them ) of being able to choose multiply classes from several different martial arts is outstanding.

Have fun with your training :)

Eric bookin

Benoit
24th September 2001, 19:02
I am a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner in Canada and I know about the World Kobudo Federation. You should be careful with that organization. It thrives on giving titles (Kyoshi, Hanshi; whatever that means) and promoting people who have money to give them. This organization is all about politics. The art is secondary. Anyways, if some are happy with WKF, it must mean they have good stuff to offer.

Ben

Yamantaka
24th September 2001, 19:45
Interesting thread...
I would like to clarify some points :
a) In Japan, the terms BUDO and BUJUTSU are somehow less specific that we believe them to be. Two of the most respected organizations in Japan, the NIHON KOBUDO SHINKOKAI and the NIHON KOBUDO KYOKAI are almost completely composed of arts we consider JUTSU. Yagyu Nobuharu, the respected grand-master of YAGYU SHINKAGE RYU sometimes calls his art BUDO or KENDO, even considering it is clearly a Bujutsu or a Kenjutsu;
b) Hélio Gracie never studied Judo (Mark San, where did you get this idea?) He simply studied with his brother Carlos, who studied a simplified form of Judo(mainly Ne waza) with the Kodokan man, Maeda;
c) Many respected organizations rank in several arts, providing an alternative for specific organizations of those arts. Two examples are the NIHON KOKUSAI BUDOIN (IMAF) which has sections on Aikido, Karate, Jujutsu, and other arts. If I'm not wrong, GOZO SHIODA Sensei, YOSHIO SUGINO Sensei and MINORU MOCHIZUKI Sensei were ranked by this organization. Another one is the SHUDOKAN BUDOIN, created by Walter Todd Sensei. Both those organizations have representatives, in each art, to promote exams and grade students. So, if you wanted to grade in Aikido, you would be submited to teachers of that art that would give you rank in it. It's not usually one art examining another art.
So the World Kobudo Federation has created nothing new. And as has been stressed here, there are quite some good fellows there, John Therien is a respected budoka and considering the amount of politics in many "official" organizations, it offers an interesting opportunity for budoka disgusted with their own organizations. Not necessarily a bad thing...
Just to make some points

yondan
25th September 2001, 06:09
Gentle Men
I have with great interest read all your valued opinions of the WKF Organization. I believe the purpose of the Arts is to share with each other in the ideas of wisdom and learning. What style you may be doing is of personal choice and that is the way it should be. As a Instructor I feel that it is my job to pass on all that I have learned in order to help no matter what style is at thta time working with me on the Mat?? Thw WKF is as you have mentioned open to all and any to participate in the ideas that we can learn from each other?? As far as Ranking goes When this is done at a Convention or symposium of all styles the grading board is composed of the Highest Ranking of that particular Style example Jiujitsu (Koshi Therien and Soke Morris with other WKF Ranks To say the rankings is illegit is totally wrong. When a Karate Inst judges a Judoka that is wrong??? This does not happen. As a Inst who is a WKF member and a ambassador all we are doing is offering a place to go and learn that there is a lot to offer in all styles. Gentlemen this is the 21 century.I for one am always looking to learn and hopefully so is all other true Martial Artist.
Thanks your Friend in the Arts
Yondon
Originally posted by MarkF
Hello, Anders,
Well, you are correct in that none mentioned are truly ancient, but most are budo. Kobudo these days seems to have more meaning in the old weapons used than in the empty hand arts.

But even gendai arts carry with them *some* of the old ways. Kodokan Judo implies something old and something new. But it may be better translated as the hall/place of the school of the way. I think this may be what is meant, but I don't really know enough about them to give an informed opinion. However, since they have included arts such as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as kobudo, it does make one wonder. My opinion is that I don't have one, but I will be looking it more in detail. If They have good intentions, and as long as no one gets hurt, the good student is attracted to the good teacher, this may be a way to cull students into a more traditional way of learning. But you are right to ask questions, and they most certainly are not an organization with "ancient warrior ways," that's for sure.:smash: :toast: :toast: :toast:
WKF

MarkF
25th September 2001, 07:58
Ubaldo,
This is an old thread. I've learned some since then, and you are so right. In fact, read the new thread I'm posting for a more balance look at both.

If you follow the links back there are some other articles, as well.

To all of you who are new here to e-budo, welcome!

Please keep in mind that one must sign with his full name to one's posts. The signature feature can make this easy, or you may sign each post manually.

Otherwise, thanks for your posts.

Mark

MarkF
25th September 2001, 08:07
Ubaldo,
I posted it in the judo forum. Nice articles, not too long.

Mark

Yamantaka
25th September 2001, 13:14
Originally posted by MarkF
Ubaldo,
I posted it in the judo forum. Nice articles, not too long.

Mark

YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Mark! I'll take a look. I'm sure, as always, I'll have much to learn.
Best

47th ronin
25th September 2001, 18:05
I have followed this discussion with some interest. As a long time member of WKF, I find it interesting that it is perceived as a rank selling organization. Actually, I find that offensive. John Therien is ranked 8th degree black belt, not 10th. I could list various peope who have left this organization and obtained high ranks in other organizations. As was stated by Yondan, When testing is done at a symposium, it is by the highest ranked instructor in the appropriate style(s). I suggest style(s) because in many styles of jiu jitsu as an example, there are not kata to examine, but only waza(techniques). As a practioner of jiu-jitsu, i may not do things exactly the same way as a student from Belgium, but there should be enough commonality of technique to recognize if the technique is valid and workable. If it is a ranking in Aikido Shihan Kevin Blok would test. In Karate, perhaps Kyoshi Cesar Borkowski or Kyoshi John Snyder would oversee.

There is no WKF "style". The WKF allows its member to gather and exchange ideas and techniques in an open atmosphere. Is ITF tae kwon do better than WTF? I don't know, but have trained beside practioners of both in a Sambo seminar. I have been exposed to Isshin-ryu Karate, Ed Parker Kempo, BJJ, judo, Kung Fu, Hapkido,Tai Chi, Hakko-ryu ju jutsu, Muay Thai and many other styles. I have learned something from all of them.

Look at the people who run this organization. They are well respected martial artists throughout the world. Does the occasional flake get in? Of course, but they don't stay because its hard to keep up the bull for a long time with lot of people who don't impress easily. Membership in the WKF is not based on lineage, so there is a mix of traditional Japanese, Korean and Chinese arts, along with modern eclectic styles. Treat a convention like a bufett, come in with your own knowledge and pick and choose from a variety of other styles to possibly enhance your own