View Full Version : Mugai Ryu
gmarquay
19th March 2002, 16:56
Has anyone heard of Mugai Ryu Iaido? I was thinking of training in this art as a supplement to my other training in another system. Could anyone expound on it? I haven't found too much detailed info on the web. Thanks.
Glenn Marquay
Gene Gabel
20th March 2002, 07:30
Originally posted by gmarquay
Has anyone heard of Mugai Ryu Iaido? I was thinking of training in this art as a supplement to my other training in another system. Could anyone expound on it? I haven't found too much detailed info on the web. Thanks.
Glenn Marquay
....................................
Try Craig Sensei's dojo in Houston. If this isn't enough drop me an email and I will go into it further
GEne Gabel
Vile
21st March 2002, 04:38
I have on my hands an interview of Sato Kimimaro sensei (Hontai Yoshin ryu menkyo kaiden, Mugai ryu 8. dan, kyoshi. He studied directly under the 11th soke of Mugai ryu, Nakagawa), made when he was in Finland teaching Mugai ryu and Hontai Yoshin ryu. I'm sorry but I cannot type the whole interview nor can I send it to anyone, so please don't ask. The full interview will be published in English (propably on-line) in the Journal of Japanese Sword Arts by Mr. Kim Taylor in the future, so you can read it there.
I couldn't attend the seminar so I haven't practised Mugai ryu myself. Our (referring to us Finnish Muso Shinden ryu practioners) Muso Shinden ryu teacher, Takada Gakudo sensei also teaches Mugai ryu iai (he has menkyo kaiden in MR) to people who have attained a certain level in MSR, but I'm not that far yet in my training of MSR.
In short:
History of Mugai ryu starts with Tsuji Mugai Gettan (1649-1727). He studied Yamaguchi ryu kenjutsu and recieved menkyo kaiden. He also studied zen and experienced enlightment (satori) when he was 45 and invented Mugai ryu kenjutsu. Iai came to Mugai ryu later from Jigyo ryu when the Jigyo ryu soke, Taga Jikyosai Morimasa joined Mugai ryu and introduced the iai techniques.
Tsuji Mugai Gettan had good realtionship with two daimyo Yamaguchi and Sakai, who asked him to teach Mugai ryu. Instead Gettan sent his two students Tsuji Uheita and Tsuji Kimata to teach the daimyo.
The 11th soke, Nakagawa tried to collect different lineages of Mugai ryu under one organization Mugai Kai. Nakagawa didn't appoint single soke after his dead, but gave the organization of Mugai Kai the authority. Current president of Mugai Kai is Nakataro Yoshitaro (menkyo kaiden).
In interview Sato sensei states that Mugai ryu and zen are closely related (unlike most other ryu that have more relations with esoteric buddhism or shinto) and sensei himself has studied zen and liked the studying very much.
You can find the curriculum teached by Takada Gakudo sensei on the homepage of Finnish Iaido Association:
http://personal.inet.fi/surf/iaido/
there select "Muso Shinden ryu" and then "Techniques".
I hope this was helpfull!
-Mikko Vilenius
Gene Gabel
21st March 2002, 05:37
Originally posted by gmarquay
Has anyone heard of Mugai Ryu Iaido? I was thinking of training in this art as a supplement to my other training in another system. Could anyone expound on it? I haven't found too much detailed info on the web. Thanks.
Glenn Marquay
...............................................
Sorry I forgot to mention
The Chintokan Dojo in Jacksonville is hosting Shiokawa Soke on May 7 for Iai and Jo. Shiokawa Soke is the 15th Grandmaster in the line for Mugai Ryu.
As for local schools you are in luck. Shihan Darren Myers is in Norfolk right down the road from you if you are in Va Beach. He was a student of Shogo Kuniba Soke and one of my Sensei's instructors..He can be reached at www.usankfva.com/VMAC.html.
Hope this helps
Gene Gabel
gmarquay
22nd March 2002, 07:33
So would Mugai ryu be considered a koryu?
Glenn Marquay
Gene Gabel
22nd March 2002, 08:10
Originally posted by gmarquay
So would Mugai ryu be considered a koryu?
Glenn Marquay
As far as I know it is. There is the lineage to back it up.
Btw you stated in the first post you are looking to supplement this with your other training. What are you looking for?? Iai or some other type of sword art or what? The reason I ask is there is lots of arts out there to do. It just depends on your master plan.
I have specific ideas about Iai that may not go along with your ideas of what you are looking for.
GEne Gabel
Seishin
22nd March 2002, 11:46
I participated in a thread last year concerning historical info on Mugai Ryu: http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=4261
As you can see from the thread, I am a direct student of the appointed 16th Soke, Kai Kuniyuki Taishin Sensei, the future successor of Shiokawa Soke
You can also read more about Mugai Ryu and my teacher on our website: www.seibukanbudo.org.
Best regards,
Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan Denmark & Uk Shibu-Cho
Gene Gabel
22nd March 2002, 13:01
Originally posted by Seishin
I participated in a thread last year concerning historical info on Mugai Ryu: http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=4261
As you can see from the thread, I am a direct student of the appointed 16th Soke, Kai Kuniyuki Taishin Sensei, the future successor of Shiokawa Soke
You can also read more about Mugai Ryu and my teacher on our website: www.seibukanbudo.org.
Best regards,
Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan Denmark & Uk Shibu-Cho
......................................................
.........................................................
Fleming san,
Thank you, thank you so much for your post. The link to those previous threads in invaluable to me.
I also am a student of Kuniba-Ryu through my Sensei.
I will be going to the seminar in May and I am really looking forward to seeing Shiokawa Soke and the seminar on Iai
Gene Gabel
MKL
26th March 2002, 20:30
I thought to get out of lurking mode and share my two pences of information on the topic...
I was fortunate to be able to interview Sato-Sensei on two separate occasions last summer when he was visiting Finland and teaching Hontai Yoshin ryu and Mugai ryu (yep, it's the interview Mr. Vilenius already referred).
Now that I read the posts by Mr. Madsen in the previous thread quite many pieces click together, like confirming that Mugai ryu started out as a Kenjutsu ryu and its iai component came from Jigyo ryu. However, there are few differences between what Sato-Sensei told me.
First of all Sato-Sensei referred to Nakagawa as 11th, not 13th soke. Naturally, I cannot know which one is correct.
Sato-Sensei explained that 10th soke Kyutaro Takahashi was originally teaching at Kobe, but he was invited to Edo because of his Kendo skills. Consequently, he took Mugai ryu with him and later on when he moved back to Kobe to teach Kendo to the police force there he brought Mugai ryu back there. Of course this is about the main line of the ryu.
Sato-Sensei told rather peculiar story about the relationship between Kyutaro and Nakagawa. According to him, they met at Kobe after Kyutaro-soke retured there. He said that Kyutaro-soke was concerned about the continuity of the Mugai ryu and was actively looking for a student worthy of being the next soke. When he met Nakagawa soke he moved to live with him in the 1950's and taught him Mugai ryu. So in this case the teacher went to live with the student, not vice versa as usual!
Second difference is the continuation of the line after Nakagawa-soke. It was very interesting to read in Mr. Madsens post about the incident with Ishii Gogetsu since Sato-Sensei did not mention this at all! According to him Nakagawa-soke tried to gather together under him all the branches of Mugai Ryu that had previously been continued as separate Menkyu Kaiden lines. He only succeeded partly and some of the branches remained independend. Sato-Sensei, however, did not say whether any of these are alive today.
Sato-Sensei explained that there are no soke in Mugai ryu anymore. He said that Nakagawa-Soke decided to pass the authority to Mugai-Kai (Mugai federation) that was established earlier as the administrative body of the Mugai ryu. There are currently two Menkyo Kaidens in Mugai Kai: Nakataro Yoshitaro who is the Kaicho (President) of the Mugai Kai and Mori Kimio who is Sato Sensei’s sempai.
Please bear in mind that this information is solely based on the interview of Sato-Sensei and I myself have no connection to Mugai ryu. My affliation is Muso Shinden ryu and I've only practised Mugai ryu for one week under Sato-Sensei's tutolage.
Hope this helps.
Seishin
29th March 2002, 07:46
Dear Marko,
Thank you for the additional information from the interview with Sato-Sensei. I read the article a while ago and found it quite interesting as well. I thinkthat Mugai Ryu was practised in many parts of Japan from a very early stage in its history, probably due to Tsuji Gettan´s great skill and high popularity among senior Daimyo from different parts of Japan. Also, much later in history, Nakagawa Soke seems to have traveled quite a bit and taught in many places. It is therefore not surprising that Mugai Ryu exists in different locations today - and that the different branches not necessarily are connected with each other any longer. Nakagawa Soke is a legendary teacher and must have left a number of skilled students carrying on the tradition of Mugai Ryu. With regard to whether he was the 11th or the 13th soke I am aware that various research has resulted in different counting. Also, from the early days there seems to have been at least two mainlines - one in Edo and one in Himeji (the Sakai family). Tsuji Gettan´s nephew, Uheita, was hired by the Sakai in 1715 to teach Bujutsu. This part of the Tsuji family continued to teach in Himeji up until early 19th century when the Takahashi family continued the teaching. Gettan´s adopted son, Tsuji Kimata Sukehide was teaching in both Edo and Tosa from the early days. Normally he is considered the second soke of Mugai Ryu. If you use that as the base for the counting, you will end up with Nakagawa being the 11th soke (1. Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi, 2. Tsuji Kimata Sukehide, 3. Tsuji Bunzaemon Sukemasa, 4. Tsuji Tatsugoro Sukeyuki, 5. Tsuji Kimata Shigeyuki, 6. Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsusuke, 7. Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsukura, 8. Takahashi Hachisuke Nariyuki, 9. Takahashi Tetsuo Takenari, 10. Takahashi Kyutaro Koun, 11. Nakagawa Shiníchi Shiryu). However, there seem to be an alternative counting, which includes Uheita (Gettan´s nephew in Himeji)as the 2nd soke and mentions Kimata Sukehide as the 3rd soke and one other member of the Tsuji family later in the line, which makes Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsusuke the 8th soke instead of the 6th. I guess that Uheita was such an important personin Mugai Ryu as well so that he has to be included in the line. I belive that this is based on some research that Shiokawa carried out years ago (I am not sure if this was before or after Nakagawa´s death - and if he considered himself 11th or 13th soke). In any case, Shiokawa Soke is an outstanding exponent of Mugai Ryu Iai. I have had the pleasure of seing him demonstrate several times (both Mugai Ryu Iai and Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo, of which he is Menkyo Kaiden as well) and he is absolutely amazing. He is now well into his seventies and is still relatively strong. My teacher, Kai Kuniyuki Sensei is a direct student of Shiokawa Soke for many years. He is still in his prime and a worthy next generation of Mugai Ryu (designated 16th Soke).
BTW your information about Takahashi Kyutaro Koun Soke is correct. In fact he was one of the founding members of Butokukai in 1895. He was also part of the group of Kendo teachers who put together the first Kendo kata, Dai Nihon Teikoku Kendo Kata, in 1911.
Best regards,
Flemming Madsen
Gene Gabel
29th March 2002, 07:54
Originally posted by Seishin
Dear Marko,
Thank you for the additional information from the interview with Sato-Sensei. I read the article a while ago and found it quite interesting as well. I thinkthat Mugai Ryu was practised in many parts of Japan from a very early stage in its history, probably due to Tsuji Gettan´s great skill and high popularity among senior Daimyo from different parts of Japan. Also, much later in history, Nakagawa Soke seems to have traveled quite a bit and taught in many places. It is therefore not surprising that Mugai Ryu exists in different locations today - and that the different branches not necessarily are connected with each other any longer. Nakagawa Soke is a legendary teacher and must have left a number of skilled students carrying on the tradition of Mugai Ryu. With regard to whether he was the 11th or the 13th soke I am aware that various research has resulted in different counting. Also, from the early days there seems to have been at least two mainlines - one in Edo and one in Himeji (the Sakai family). Tsuji Gettan´s nephew, Uheita, was hired by the Sakai in 1715 to teach Bujutsu. This part of the Tsuji family continued to teach in Himeji up until early 19th century when the Takahashi family continued the teaching. Gettan´s adopted son, Tsuji Kimata Sukehide was teaching in both Edo and Tosa from the early days. Normally he is considered the second soke of Mugai Ryu. If you use that as the base for the counting, you will end up with Nakagawa being the 11th soke (1. Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi, 2. Tsuji Kimata Sukehide, 3. Tsuji Bunzaemon Sukemasa, 4. Tsuji Tatsugoro Sukeyuki, 5. Tsuji Kimata Shigeyuki, 6. Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsusuke, 7. Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsukura, 8. Takahashi Hachisuke Nariyuki, 9. Takahashi Tetsuo Takenari, 10. Takahashi Kyutaro Koun, 11. Nakagawa Shiníchi Shiryu). However, there seem to be an alternative counting, which includes Uheita (Gettan´s nephew in Himeji)as the 2nd soke and mentions Kimata Sukehide as the 3rd soke and one other member of the Tsuji family later in the line, which makes Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsusuke the 8th soke instead of the 6th. I guess that Uheita was such an important personin Mugai Ryu as well so that he has to be included in the line. I belive that this is based on some research that Shiokawa carried out years ago (I am not sure if this was before or after Nakagawa´s death - and if he considered himself 11th or 13th soke). In any case, Shiokawa Soke is an outstanding exponent of Mugai Ryu Iai. I have had the pleasure of seing him demonstrate several times (both Mugai Ryu Iai and Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo, of which he is Menkyo Kaiden as well) and he is absolutely amazing. He is now well into his seventies and is still relatively strong. My teacher, Kai Kuniyuki Sensei is a direct student of Shiokawa Soke for many years. He is still in his prime and a worthy next generation of Mugai Ryu (designated 16th Soke).
BTW your information about Takahashi Kyutaro Koun Soke is correct. In fact he was one of the founding members of Butokukai in 1895. He was also part of the group of Kendo teachers who put together the first Kendo kata, Dai Nihon Teikoku Kendo Kata, in 1911.
Best regards,
Flemming Madsen
.......................................................
................................................
Fleming San
You are a fountain of knowledge,
I would like to thank you for sharing you knowledge of Mugai Ryu history with all of us.
Keep it up
Gene Gabel
Seishin
29th March 2002, 08:21
Thanks Gene. I have a great teacher - all credit goes to him.....!
Flemming
MKL
29th March 2002, 08:25
Flemming,
There are actually two separate interview of Sato sensei, I believe that you have read the earlier one, written by Mr. Pasi Hellsten in 1997. The interview I made last summer has not been published anywhere in english yet (actually, I just had time to finish the translation which should be published in TIN sometime in the future.) This second interview was done to supplement the first one and I am hoping that I might be able to meet Sato sensei this summer when he is visiting Finland again and ask him more questions.
(Unfortunately, our Muso Shinden Ryu teacher, Takada Gakudo sensei is coming to teach us at exactly same time so my priority is naturally there but I'll try to figure out something...)
The information in your post adds up nicely to what Sato-sensei told. Especially in the early stages. Here's a direct quote from the translation:
"The founder of the Mugai ryû was Tsuji Mugai Gettan, who as born in the year Keian 2 (1649) in the Shiga (Ômi) prefecture. After receiving menkyô kaiden in Yamaguchi ryû kenjutsu from Yamaguchi Bôkushinsai he moved to Edo to start his own dojo.
Gettan was poor and had very few pupils. Consequently, he had plenty of time in his hands and he went to the Buddhist temple Kyûkôji to study Zen Buddhism and classical Chinese culture to improve himself. The name of his Zen teacher was Sekitan Zenshi. Many daimyo visited the temple regularly and while Gettan helped them with their studies, he became familiar with the higher society.
While in the temple Gettan experienced satori (enlightenment) at the age of 45 and founded the Mugai ryû. Originally Mugai ryû was a kenjutsu school and the iai component came to the school later from the Jigyô ryû. The soke of the Jigyô ryû at that moment was Taga Jikyôsai Morimasa and he lacked a pupil who could carry the tradition on. So instead of letting his ryû fade he joined the Mugai ryû bringing his teachings with him. The kenjutsu component is still today preserved in the Mugai ryû as a ryûha recognized by the Nihon Butokukai. Sato Sensei teaches five kenjutsu kata to his advanced students. Sensei explained that these kata are very hard and one cannot do them with a real sword because the blades would be destroyed. Thus the kata are practised solely with a bokken.
Gettan had especially good relationships with two powerful daimyo, Yamaguchi and Sakai. Eventually both of them asked Gettan to come to teach them. Gettan had, however, lost interest in teaching and instead sent two of his pupils, Tsuji Kimata and Tsuji Uheita to them. Uheita was a blood relative of Gettan while Kimata had taken up his name (yôshi). This is how the Mugai ryû started to spread around the country."
Also the part about Nakagawa sokes's travels, Sato sensei told that he travelled a great deal trying to locate all the branches of Mugai ryu and persuade them joining together under him.
One thing I'm curious about is the continuity of the line after Nakagawa soke. Firstly, Sato-Sensei himself started practising Mugai ryu some 35 years ago as a pupil of Nakagawa soke (which puts it roughly in the middle 60's) so the banishing of Ishii Gogetsu happened before that. He did, however, mention the very same book where you said that the banishment was documented but did not mention the actual incident (maybe he did not like to talk about) and neither did he mention the appointment of Shiokawa sensei.
Now could you share some light regarding the relationship between Shiokawa sensei and Mugai Kai today?
Happy Easter!
Seishin
29th March 2002, 08:35
Dear Marko,
Thanks again for the additional information. Unfortunately, I do not know anything about the possible connection between Shiokawa Soke and the Mugai Kai. Sorry!
Best regards,
Flemming
Vile
29th March 2002, 08:57
Thank you for your insight on this subject Mr. Madsen.
That's the third lineage I've seen about Mugai ryuu now. Naturally (being a Musô Shinden ryû student myself) the different views are really not a suprise to me, but I find this very interesting. It seems to me that some people in the lineage might have have been mixed up at some point or maybe have changed their names during their lives (which seems not all too uncommon).
I did some digging on my own and this is what I found:
The Bugei Ryûha Daijiten lists up and numbers (shodai, nidai, and so forth) up to five sôkes. If you count to Nakagawa sôke from Tsuji Mugai Gettan you get ten generations, not 11 as Sato sensei. BRDJ also lists the lineage from Takahashi Hachisuke Mitsuryô as Takahashi-ha. In BRDJ Hachisuke Mitsuryô is listed as the student of the fourth sôke, Tsuji Tatsugorô Sukeyuki but not labeled as the fifth sôke. According to BRDJ there's no connection between the fifth sôke, Tsuji Bunzaemon Sukenobu and Hachisuke Mitsuryô. At least I didn't notice any other lineages leading to Hachisuke Mitsuryô (i.e. he's not listed as student of anyone else in Mugai ryû lineage than the fourth sôke. Like if you compare the lineage to the Hasegawa Eishin ryû, you can find Nakayama Hakudô listed about three times and depending on where you count the lineage you get either 18 or 16 generations counting him. Anyway.. I didn't find Hachisuke Mitsuryô mentioned anywhere else but under the fourth sôke, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean anything).
Btw.. according to BRDJ Hachisuke Mitsuryô also studied Jigyô ryû under it's fourth sôke.
You can check the lineage up to Nakagawa sôke as listed in BRDJ and as listed by Sato sensei (which seems to have yet another version of the lineage, but it's hard at least for me to tell without seeing the kanji. Sato sensei visits Finland this summer again and if given the change I'll try to get the kanji and also I try to ask Takada sensei his version of the lineage) from here:
http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~mijuvi/iai/mugairyuu.html
Would you mind, Mr. Madsen if I add that lineage you gave to that same webpage. Would you happen to have kanji on those?
I'd be very interested to know what lineage do other Mugai ryû groups follow if there are any surviving. There are several listed in BRDJ that branch from "Takahashi-ha" and two that branch from the fifth sôke. There's also a branch starting from a student of the fourth sôke named as Shikata-ha or Shihô-ha. And like Mr. Madsen wrote the originator of Mugai ryû Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi had several students. The BRDJ lists eight of these (in addition to the Mugai ryû main line and some two of those listed have in turn found their own ryûha).
Sincerely,
Mikko Vilenius
Hi all,
The interview of Sato-Sensei that I've been referring is now finally published as a whole in TIN and it can be found at http://ejmas.com/tin/tinframe.htm
Hope you find it helpful.
Seishin
18th April 2002, 06:21
Dear Mikko,
Please feel free to add the lineage to your website. I do have the Kanji - can I fax them to you?
Best regards,
Flemming Madsen
Chris deMonch
18th April 2002, 06:53
I remember hearing that Saitoh Hajime of the Shinsengumi was of the Mugai Ryu. (I don't remember where I heard this but I wasn't just from some RR Kenshin site) The Shinsengumi was made up of swordsmen from plenty of different schools so I didn't think it was impossible. Can anyone add any validity to this.
Vile
19th April 2002, 09:50
Originally posted by Seishin
Dear Mikko,
Please feel free to add the lineage to your website. I do have the Kanji - can I fax them to you?
Best regards,
Flemming Madsen
Thank you very much Mr. Madsen. I'll send you the fax number as a private message.
Edit: I'm sorry but I don't seem to be able to contact you via the board Mr. Madsen. Could you kindly contact me by e-mail: mijuvi@cc.jyu.fi
JAMJTX
6th December 2002, 04:36
For Mugai Ryu in the U.S. see either Darrell Craig in Houston
www.houstonbudokan.com
or Butch Velez at www.americangoshinkobudo.com
The AGK has schools in various states.
Jim Mc Coy
renfield_kuroda
6th December 2002, 06:10
Sakimukai-sensei http://www.chintokan.com/budo_iai.htm also teaches Mugairyu (I think.) I believe he was a student of Shiokawa-gosoke though he's not associated with my organization (Hougyokukai (http://www.npo-hougyoku-kai.jp/)) so I don't know much more about him.
Regards,
renfield kuroda
JAMJTX
7th December 2002, 02:08
The book has finally been released. My copy from YMAA was delivered today.
At first glance I have to give Craig Shihan a "job well done".
If you have not done so yet, order your copy now.
Jim Mc Coy
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.