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joe yang
21st March 2002, 01:13
In corrections we call it retard strength, that amped up adrenaline dump. I've seen guys who can turn it on and off, keep it going for hours. While it's on they seem as impervious to pain as a drug addict. Forget pressure points and compliance strikes. The rookies usually try to rush in and prove a point. I like to string them out till they burn out.

I realise CO's have an edge over street cops. If we are on the ball, we can see it coming, watch the escalation, plan accordingly. Do you guys on the street plan for the "retards". They are out there. Drugs and alchohol may be part of the mix, but fear and adrenaline shoulden't be underestimated.

CO's get time to talk to these guys, clean and sober. It is interesting how many of them have been conditioned by male role models, to turn pain and fear into victory.

Kit LeBlanc
21st March 2002, 01:27
Oh yeah,

Some you know and can respond appropriately. I think we have more of the meth psychosis guys, or the alchohol induced attitude. Isn't it great when they COMBINE those with (admittedly not P.C. ) retard strength.

Joint locks? Pressure points? Pain compliance?

ROFLMAO.

joe yang
21st March 2002, 03:28
Ohhh, repeat offenders, right? Got to love them. Recidivism is job security. What I'm saying is, beyond meth or PCP, there is a whole chemical thing that works for the bad guys, against LE. Cops don't see it because you only guys he perps in the heat of passion, when drugs and alchohol are a big factor. Fact is, later, drug free, in jail, they still get psycho. Drugs only made it worse.

The scariest MA moments I ever had were beating down apmed up wackos, 3 on 1, 4 on 1, seeing the good guys loosing it, take downs, joint locks, pressure points, the bad guys laughing it off, and winning.

I've done stuff I'm not proud of, just to get home safe. Hope nobody else is twisting over use of force issues, second guessing choices made in combat. Especially you cops. Sometimes the bad guys are more wired than you can imagine. That's my point here, we're talking about drugs and combat. What about the our own chemical responses?

Kit LeBlanc
21st March 2002, 03:40
Joe,

Yeah, some guys are that way no matter if they are on drugs. Some guys do the drugs and it gets worse.

Interesting pepper spray story: Guy gets all whacked, whether just mental or on meth I don't know. The boys respond, the fight ensues, and he gets sprayed, no effect. Gets taken to jail and put in the drunk/drug tank, snot leaking out of his nose from the OC. Later another copper goes by, and this dude is using the OC snot coming from his nose as lubricant to masturbate.

:eek:

Rogier
21st March 2002, 06:43
eeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww thank you for sharing that story with us..... NOT :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Walker
21st March 2002, 07:04
‘Twas the great and wise philosopher Nitzsche who stated
“What does not kill me makes me masturbate.”
Pretty sure....

Charlie Kondek
21st March 2002, 15:41
Wow, Kit. Wow.

You know, some of you guys are young enough to know how a lot of punk kids are able to get themselves amped up like you're describing. When I mean punk I mean the music, lifestyle, combat-boots and safety-pins-type punk. I grew up around kids like this, who can turn it off and on like that. And the music can be an expression of that mindset.

Kit LeBlanc
21st March 2002, 15:49
Joe is familiar with this I am sure, and people in LE are aware of it....goes right along with Joe's statements above:

Why is it that the Bad Guys will a lot of times take multiple rounds, get punctured lungs, shattered bones, etc. and keep going, and a lot of cops will take a minor wound and drop and give up?

I think it's the same thing we are talking about here..

JRSims
21st March 2002, 18:49
All,

Nice discussion. Although a lot of these points (resistance to pressure points, etc) have been raised in one form or another, I think we can all agree that LE/CO folks deal with these issues in a unique way.

Kit, your point about perps having the hardcore mindset as opposed to LE/CO types is well taken. What to do? It is also reminds me of an interesting story the instructor (an ex-SF medical specialist) told at my last shooting course. Seems he was a student himself at another course when an LE student shot himself in the leg. He dropped and started screaming, at which point my instructor walked over and checked the leg out to make sure nothing vital had been nicked. He then began to scream at the guy who shot himself, yelling at him to stand up and "finish shooting his g**damn string!" The other guy declined, unfortunately. :rolleyes:

I'd like to bring up a point that does not get addressed very often, and that is the sad fact that corrections facilities are often dumping grounds for the mentally ill. Granted, you can be schizophrenic and still be a criminal a**hole, but there a disturbing number of people in there who are in jail as a RESULT of mental illness, not in addition to it.

As a result, CO's with nil-to-minimal training in working with the mentally ill/severely emotionally disturbed (SED) are interacting with them in ways that often unwittingly escalate the situation, with tragic results. I know from experience, and I'll bet others here will attest, that having to go in hard on an SED subject who loses it is a disturbing event. One minute they are fighting with inhuman strength, and you are doing what you have to to keep you and your partners safe. The next minute they are screaming out for their mother, genuinely terrified of the men and women who are (in their minds) brutalizing them for reasons they poorly understand.

In my mind, what this calls for (and this ties in to dealing with anyone who is 'amped up') is hard training in learning how to apply leverage and kuzushi WITHOUT having to rely on pain compliance. Put simply, if your techniques rely on 'stunning the opponent with an atemi/pressure point attack', then they will often fail. As a result, as many LE/CO operators will probably attest, you are going to either have to rely on brute strength (nice if you have it) or escalating the level of force.

Of course, pain compliance techniques have a definite and valuable place, IMO. Perfect for giving your run of the mill SOB a reason to reconsider his present course of action, etc.

My 2 cents. Sorry if I waxed overly long, I'm not used to concise posting.

Respectfully,

John R. Sims
(who no longer works in corrections, but has not forgotten the lessons)

P.S. Kit, why do you keep that judo signature? You know that s**t wouldn't work!:D

Kit LeBlanc
21st March 2002, 20:40
Originally posted by JRSims


My 2 cents. Sorry if I waxed overly long, I'm not used to concise posting.

Respectfully,

John R. Sims
(who no longer works in corrections, but has not forgotten the lessons)

P.S. Kit, why do you keep that judo signature? You know that s**t wouldn't work!:D

That's why you only have 1 karma point, I'm sure.:kiss:

You hit on a very interesting point regarding the mentally disturbed. It is a weird feeling isn't it? Being tasked with controlling someone with freakish strength and no inhibitions, who may very well be under the impression they are fighting for their lives....and not trying to hurt them, but trying not to let them get the better of you to where you have to hurt them. Then that strange feeling that you just manhandled a child, screaming for his mother, though he happens to be 6'2" 230 lbs. and feels no physical pain....

Maybe Ellis can add something from his expertise here.

I agree 100% re: kuzushi and leverage. This would extend to dominating positions in ground control that do not rely on pressure points, pain compliance or locks in order to maintain that control. Another reason why I feel that certain select skills from BJJ and Judo type groundwork should be required teaching at police academies.

Oh, and my Judo signature? I will quote the words of a very wise man that you are perhaps familiar with:

"Try that on a Judo man....." ;)

joe yang
22nd March 2002, 03:53
The mentally ill in prison is subject for a whole topic. What a tragic mistake it is turning out to be. Unfortunately, they are probably most at risk for use of force scenarios. When a guy pumpes himself up on adrenaline, granted this is not a normal skill, if the guy is otherwise sane, stall and talk till he burns out.

Unfortunately, too often the acting out, mentally ill, violent offender turns to violent self abuse. Then CO's have no choice but to roll in fighting. Taking these subjects down, pulling hands and feet out away from the body, reducing the subjects leverage is fairly successful, if...

If you can overcome their incredable strength and if some of the well intentioned idiots who are on your team aren't working at cross purposes.

I actually have a videotape somewhere of the night from hell, 6 or 7 killer cell extractions in a row, a mini riot. We are suited up in black BDU's and RIOT HELMETS. I can't believe it, but there is a shot, one CO has another CO in a HEADLOCK, HELMET AND ALL, punching him in the ribs, while I'm wrestling the bad guy alone.:laugh:

JRSims
22nd March 2002, 05:08
Thanks for your reply Joe. You wrote:

>If you can overcome their incredable strength and if some of the >well intentioned idiots who are on your team aren't working at cross >purposes.

Agreed. I'm sure you could tell a thousand stories of your team members getting in each others way during a cell-extraction/takedown: grabbing each other's limbs, yanking an inmates arm away from you just as you were getting a joint lock on it, etc.

I've been out of the corrections loop for about 7 years now-are departments providing any time/budget/training for teaching CO's to take down inmantes in teams? Even our CRASH/cell extraction teams didn't really do any formal training. They learned the basics from more experienced officers and then learned on the job.

Kit-I'm sure that 'certain someone' you mentioned is going to ashibarai me onto my head if he hears I dissed judo, even in jest!:)

Respectfully,

John R. Sims

joe yang
22nd March 2002, 18:40
A few years ago, a new, less than lethal product hit the market. The ERB, Emergency Restraint Belt, is a velcro restraint system. It takes two people to apply/deploy one belt. Team application calls for two teams of two, two belts. It is/was supposed to eliminate less than lethal weapons, hard restraints, lethal force, it was the sliced white bread of corrections. When it works, it works well.

Our CERT practiced with it for weeks. We became a smooth, well oiled, certified machine. Then we tried applying it in the real world. We kept with it for a while to justify the expense and save face. The belts are sitting on a shelf somewhere now with our side handle batons and shock shields.

Don't get me wrong, the ERB system works. It takes constant team training. We train more than most, but still not enough. Serious martial artists are an exception in LE/corrections. No one trains as long and hard as we do. Team training?:laugh:

Ellis Amdur
22nd March 2002, 19:29
I recall a guy on meth who ended up being strapped down on a gurney in five point restraint - continued to rage and struggle for twenty-four hours, and eventually went into severe medical emergency. He had begun to break down muscle tissue and the protein clogged up his kidneys - he went into renal failure.

As Kit mentioned, one of my specialties is training in communication with agitated and aggressive mentally ill individuals for law enforcement and corrections staff. I've been dealing with the mad and sometimes bad for about twelve years professionally, and there are ways to assess behaviors as offering some level of predictability regarding what kind of communication strategies will work best. It is directed in the continuum from baseline communication all the way up to the edge of violence. (To be clear - Not having knowledge of DT, not being LEO or corrections staff, I offer no suggestions on when to go into use of force or what to use.) I've have the pleasure of participating in the training of CIT (Crisis Intervention Teams) in a number of law enforcement jurisdictions - these officers get 40 hours training in a five day block. Information I've received indicates that agencies with this kind of training have a reduction of need for call outs of the hostage negotiation teams, better relations with community groups (one of the prime "self-defense needs of LEO - think of the paperwork and reactive regulations that are often imposed after a complaint!).

Those wanting more info about my work on verbal deescalation of mentally ill folks are free to check my website. If any law enforcement folks are interested in the CIT approach, I'd recommend contacting either Seattle Police department or Memphis P.D., both considered pioneers in this area (it started in Memphis, I believe.)

With respect

Ellis Amdur