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View Full Version : How much is your dojo charging you per year?



Shitoryu Dude
23rd March 2002, 16:43
One of the things that shows up in the Bad Budo section over and over again is places that suck in the cash in exchange for numerous seminars you are required to attend, belt promotions, patches and/or equipment that must be purchased throught them, etc, etc. So what is "average"? Feel free to itemize the costs.

And don't include items that are truly optional purchases through your dojo.

:beer:

Ron Rompen
24th March 2002, 04:06
I am (honestly) not sure what is charged for a yearly membership at my dojo, but I believe it is ~$600 a year for adults.

I was fortunately enough to catch Sensei when she was offering black belt memberships (3 yrs ago) and purchased one for a little more than the cost of 1 yr membership. In my case it was DEFINITELy a good investment, since I anticipate at least another 3 yrs before I get to Shodan (grin).

Here in S Ontario, I have seen prices ranging from $80 for 12 weeks to $2000 a year (don't ask about that one....)

Shitoryu Dude
24th March 2002, 17:43
Must be nice living someplace where property prices aren't stupid. The dojo I'm at, even though it is a few miles from the downtown area, is still close enough to mean that the price per square foot is going to be outlandish. They offer a variety of membership packages based on age and amount of time you wish to spend at the dojo. I think it ranges from $60 to $90 per month. Promotion fees are set by head office in Japan and are fairly cheap for the kyu ranks - considering that I've seen some people hang onto the same belt for over a year when they really should have promoted, I'd say the pressure for money is fairly light.

Thant's nothing compared to a couple of places that were quite willing to charge $200+a month for very limited access to the dojo. Still, my first school charged $10/week and that included private lessons. But you could also rent a 3 bedroom house with a large yard for only $250 at the time. :)

:beer:

Ron Rompen
24th March 2002, 18:34
Well, property prices here in Kitchener are not actually that low (we are close enough to Toronto and Hamilton that there is some splash-over from the real estate market there) but our dojo is in a minimall in a small suburb, so its not too ludicrous. I know sensei is not getting rich on what she makes from us, but she seems to be satisfied with what she makes.

mushinmaster
24th March 2002, 19:21
I am very fortunate. My sensei isn't dependant on the school for any source of income, and he bought the building when he first moved in. He has taken it as his mission to train me for the academy, so I go for free. Adults are charged $50/mo, so if you do the math, that's $600/yr.

Belts are to observe your hip rotation, and not anything special. There are no tests and in the year I've been there, I've never seen one person promoted, myself included. Rank has very little signifigance, the only thing that matters in training.

Like I said, I'm very fortunate:) :D

Nicolas Caron
24th March 2002, 19:43
The dojo where I train charges either 165$ for a 3 months period or 450$ for a full year. And that's Canadian money so it's really not an expensive place.

Thing is we share the space with a Tai Chi and Kung Fu school so the rent is split. Good point is the low prices, bad point is that we can't have access to the facilities all the time.

Senjojutsu
24th March 2002, 19:47
Hopefully you will get enough responses to make it a statistically valid sample Shito-Ryu dude.

However as a certifiable ronin of wandering the many Massachusetts and Rhode Island area dojos to observe; I would say the typical adult will pay $60-80 on a month-to-month basis for tuition, for attendance in a dedicated, commercial full-time dojo (non-shared location, no YMCA’s, Boys Clubs etc.)

However the devil is in the details:

60 @ 12 months equals $720 base yearly tuition
One karate gi (new one each year) for a yearly cost of $40
The obligatory dojo patch at $10
Two exams fees @ 25 each, equals $50 a year
One “National Association” yearly membership fee, at $25

So that would equal $845 yearly cost before any seminars, weapons, sparring gear or tapes etc; or $1,085 a year at a rate of $80.00.

There are however substantial discounts when tuition is prepaid for three, six, or twelve months in advance in my area.

Is this prepay discounting common across the fruited plain E-Budo readers?

The other thing to always keep in mind is what is the cost per class.
Is the dojo tuition a flat rate or per diem (attendance based)
I was attending a TKD dojo that offered classes six days a week.
You paid the same monthly rate whether you went once a week, or busted your hump for six days a week.

Finally is the dojo’s tuition structure segmented or on a graduated plan. That is, the $60 a month is for three or four nights of basic classes, but to attend the weapons courses will cost you more, or the advanced “Black Belt” course training is charged a premium.

None of this implies bad budo as long as it is known in advance; it is the business model of the dojo and they have rent, heat, lights to pay for - not to mention Sensei has to eat.

After all, didn’t some of the old-time Japanese Jujitsu Sensei charge their students per technique taught?

Sochin
24th March 2002, 23:28
Here in S Ontario, I have seen prices ranging from $80 for 12 weeks to $2000 a year (don't ask about that one....)

Don't need to ask, "S' Kids, hmmm?

Shitoryu Dude
25th March 2002, 06:57
Actually, things are falling in a nice little bell curve, just like I expected. I thought it would be shifted over a bit - I really didn't think most people would be getting off so inexpensively, but I'm glad they are. Ancecdotal evidence would suggest that those of you who are not attending a dojo that is the primary source of income for somebody are paying less. That's not really surprising though.

I do wish we had a larger group of responders to the poll, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the curve if we had 50+ answers on the histogram.

Now if you want to count total cost of studying MA - I'd have to throw in the cost of at least two new uniforms at about $100 each, a new $10 patch every now and then, T-shirts, sparring equipment, new escrima sticks and other assorted weapons, seminars, books, videotapes for kata, and whatever else comes up. Total cost? I'm sure that adds an extra $300 -$500 every year, but those items are my choice and while the dojo is happy to sell many of them to me I am under no pressure or obligation to buy from them.

:beer:

Kimpatsu
25th March 2002, 07:13
Could we have the poll in yen, please? :D

Mike Williams
25th March 2002, 09:55
Who voted $10,000+?? Is that for real?

Mike.

Shitoryu Dude
25th March 2002, 15:44
Yen? Then I'd have to put one up in British Pounds, Euros,a nd a zillion different Pesos :(

:beer:

Kimpatsu
25th March 2002, 16:12
That, Harvey, is my whole point.
Equality for all, remember.
Sheesh, you're so Mesocentric, anyone would think you're American. :D

Shitoryu Dude
25th March 2002, 16:19
Ahh, Weedleaper! Your powers of deduction grow powerfull indeed. :rolleyes:

:beer:

Kimpatsu
25th March 2002, 22:37
I feel the Force, Darth Moul, and am ready to take the Trials. :p

Shitoryu Dude
26th March 2002, 16:01
Well, OK - let's take a look at simplified books for a dojo. A running dojo will usually have at least 50 students if it stays in business. If the average payout per student is around $1000 per year in dues then you have a gross income of $50,000 minimum. Overhead is going to eat up another $10,000 - $15,000 per year - $35,000 to $40,000 per year gross income right there. That doesn't include selling equipment, T-shirts, seminars, promotion fees, etc. Additional instructors are often free - most places use the brown and black belts to teach without any compensation. After all, teaching is learning :)

Many dojos have far more than 50 students. While I don't think you will get rich this way, you can make a decent living. Start looking at the guys who are charging over $2000 per year - they had better have some serious overhead to justify that.

:beer:

Mr.Sleazy
26th March 2002, 16:46
This is a tough one as there are so many variables involved. I can't believe the $10,000+ vote, and I have a sneaky suspicion that many of your voters will slightly "under-claim" because no-one likes to admit to spending lots of money. But really, excellent MA instruction is worth it, you get combat/fighting/self defense benefits, fitness, and a social club rolled into one.

For myself I pay CDN $105 per month, uniform included, for unlimited classes. The school has excellent facilities with some sparring gear provided, lots of pads, heavy bags, speed bags, and a ring for sparring/competition. Classes are offered in shootboxing, jiujitsu, muay thai, and weapons.

For schools charging over $2000 per year, however, esp. if you also have to buy lots of "required" gear directly from them, I would be very suspicious.

keithpenner
26th March 2002, 17:39
The dojo I attend charges the following:

Monthly dues: US$55.00 ($45 for students)
Annual dues: US$20.00
Testing fees: US$40.00
Dogi: US$50.00 (it is well publicized that there is a $10.00 fee on top of cost that goes to the dojo).

So, a yearly cost would be $770 including one test, and one dogi.

This entitles one to unlimited attendance, and 6 classes are held per week.

Shitoryu Dude
26th March 2002, 17:58
You get by with just one dogi? I go through at least two a year, sometimes four. You need a minimum of two just to keep one clean at any given time so you don't do laundry every single day. I don't get the cotton/poly blend things because, well, after switching to a heavyweight all-cotton dogi a few years back there is no way I would wear anything else now. Nothing else feels right - some of the lightweight ones actually feel kind of slimy after working up a good sweat.

I don't believe in the airing out concept of cleaning your uniform - they need to be laundered. If you wash a cotton dogi two or three times a week they start to get ratty after a few months, then they start to rip and the seams go.

A decent dogi costs at least $75 US - the best ones I know of run $300 US. tokeido ones are suppossed to last long time as well, but I've never had anyone verify that for me.

:beer:

Sochin
26th March 2002, 18:01
Good morning Mr.Sleazy
New Member

welcome here but please check out the rules posted at the bottom right of nearly every page:

Forum Rules:
Please sign your posts with your full name.
Profanity will not be tolerated.
Blatant commercial advertising is not allowed.
Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect.

......esp. sign with your whole name. The sig function makes this easy.

Thanks,

Mr.Sleazy
26th March 2002, 20:14
Requiring to show the user's real name is pretty cool, there is much less flaming on this forum.

:p

keithpenner
27th March 2002, 18:15
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
You get by with just one dogi? I go through at least two a year, sometimes four. You need a minimum of two just to keep one clean at any given time so you don't do laundry every single day.
:beer:

Actually, I have 4, with one on the way out. But the poll specified equipment that MUST be purchased through the dojo, and I was able to make due with one for the first year of practice.

Yes, it was a lot of laundry, but it was possible.

Shitoryu Dude
27th March 2002, 19:27
That's good to know - I was wondering if your compatriots at the dojo were holding their noses :p I keep two new dogis in constant rotation and a couple of older ones as spares just in case laundry doesn't get done in time.

Anymore, where I'm at, they give away a cheapo, made in Pakistan, lightweight dogi that comes in a weird shade of blue or light pink in the right light. The need to be re-dyed white and then they seem to last forever and a day. But considering that the majority of people who show up for lessons quit after 90 days, why spring for the good stuff?

:beer:

Shitoryu Dude
28th March 2002, 04:51
I think we can now safely say that anyone paying over $1500 a year to their dojo is most likely being ripped off.

Statistical analysis shows half of a bell curve with only single responses for the last few selections. These can not be supported as being typical or within the normal range of answers.

Also, in a different thread we got to look at a marketing survey of the martial arts business that showed the majority of people who study MA do so in a metropolitan area. These are the very places where the costs to run a dojo are the highest and we still ended up with the majority of people paying out $1000 or less a year.

I'd like for the people who are paying a the higher amounts to break down their costs for the rest of us - I'm sure we can point out the overcharges.

:beer:

Joseph Svinth
28th March 2002, 06:09
In fairness to commercial operators, remember those pesky taxes. Sales and business and occupation (B&O) tax are generally based on gross rather than net, and in addition there are federal and (usually) state and/or municipal income taxes on the net. Additionally, the operator has to pay full Social Security and Medicare on his income, match Social Security and Medicare on his employees' income, and pay unemployment. Thus taxes of one kind or another could easily take 30% or more of the school operator's gross income -- and the more gross revenue the school generates, the higher the tax rate. This is mentioned as partial explanation why a commercial school is going to be more expensive than a comparable school in a subsidized setting such as a community center. That said, I agree that a commercial club in a US metropolitan area should be able to operate profitably and without hidden costs in the $100 a month range, which is a sum that falls near (but not at) the top of the normal curve posted above. At the same time, subsidized clubs, such as those found in YMCAs, community centers, and the like, really shouldn't cost more than $45-55 per month. (At least in my opinion!)

Since it was asked, US $100 currently equals about E115, L70, CAN $160 or Y13,000. For a converter, see http://www.oanda.com/index.shtml .

As long as we're talking about money, how about a poll regarding hidden expenses? For example, if people are buying four new uniforms, assorted T-shirts, and a patch or two each year, then they are easily dropping $400-$500 per year on hidden expenses. So, what are typical hidden expenses? Uniforms, weapons, patches, promotions, organization fees, books, videos, etc. Here, the stated goal of profitable commercial MA schools is $20 per month per student in retail sales. Do most of us match or exceed this quota? Probably. Do we buy from our favorite dojo or organization, or do we shop for the cheapest price? Probably the latter. In that case, we're consciously taking money from the club: we save money at the expense of our club ownership, which in all probability cannot afford to buy in bulk and keep the stuff on hand, ready to hand to you at rock-bottom prices.

Finally, don't forget the expenses associated with seminars and promotions. I'm not talking scams, but reasonably legitimate associated expenses. For example, let's assume that it's reasonable to pay room, board, airfare, and $500-$1000 to the visiting instructor. In addition, remember that at least a third of gross will go to paying taxes. At these rates, a seminar with an out-of-state or out-of-country instructor could easily cost a school $2-3,000. If thirty attendees are expected, then the cost would likely be about $80-$100 per attendee. Nobody is being ripped off, that's just the cost of getting the guy to your town. Nonetheless, it's still an extra $100 out of your pocket (to say nothing of the seminar organizer's, if attendance turns out to be a disappointing 25!).

Shitoryu Dude
28th March 2002, 17:20
I agree - I drop an extra few hundred $$ a year for equipment, but the dojo does not demand I buy these items from them. I frequently do anyway as a way to keep my dojo in the black. I typically only buy my uniforms from someplace else because my dojo only seems to procure either top of the line ($300) or the stuff they give away. In addition, I do not fit the standard uniform sizes and am barrel chested. I am one step away from having my dogis custom made just so they fit properly.

:beer:

Ron Rompen
1st April 2002, 03:05
A very good question was raised that I think a few of us have sort of overlooked...what hidden costs (if any) are associated with your membership.

Perhaps hidden is the wrong word....how about 'extra' costs, over and above your weekly/monthly/annual/whatever membership fees.

For myself:

1) 1 Heavyweight do-gi (Mikado) @ $75/year (lasted 2 yrs so far, but starting to fray)
2) 1 association patch (now a Goju Ryu fist) @ $1/year
3) Weapons (so far, bo, jo, tonfa, sai, escrima sticks, bokken and the list continues to grow) @ $100/year
4) Tournment entry fees (I usually try and attend 4 or 5 a year) @ $150/year
5) Seminar fees (outside of our usual training, there are seminars available to us either in-house, or at other dojo's, etc) @ $75/year
6) Sparring gear (1 set, will hopefully last forever) @ $25/year

Thats about it. The heavyweight gi is my choice (student weight do-gi are about $10 but who would wear one unless necessary?), tournaments and seminars are NOT mandatory, and weapons were my own choice.

Shitoryu Dude
1st April 2002, 19:18
On a side note - my dojo requires that black belts wear a heavyweight gi. Not that it is much of a requirement because everybody seems to switch over to them anyway once they start hitting the brown belt level anyway. But - how long do you get yours to last? I burn through them rather quickly and get new ones (two at a time) about every 9 months or so at least. I wash mine every single time I wear them, and we all know what happens to cotton when it gets washed regularly.

I know a lot of people who "air dry" their dogis between workouts and only wash them once a week. Now, I also see a lot of these people have yellow stains on their dogi armpits and other places, and that is from bacteria growing on the sweat left in their dogi between washings. These people also tell me that their dogi is very stiff when they put it on - seems pretty nasty to me.

Is there a way to wash your dogi regularly and still get it to last? I've considered letting them air dry from the washer if that would get some extra life out of them, but I don't exactly live in Las Vegas or Texas where something like that can air dry in the time it takes to watch the evening news. I'm also hesitant to ease off too much on the detergent - I want my dogi to clean and white.

:beer:

keithpenner
1st April 2002, 19:58
Regarding "hidden costs".

I purchase 2 dogi/year. US$120 (or so).
Seminars. 1-2/year. US$90/seminar.
Mat fees when visiting other dojo. 5-8/year, $10/time.
Trip to Japan. US$1000++
Social nights out with the club. $?

Other than the Dogi, all of these items are optional.

Keeping the dogi clean.

I wash mine after every practice. Washer and dryer. I find that machine drying the dogi rather than line drying keeps it a little softer. Washing it after every practice makes me much happier regarding odor, and probably makes me more popular in class too.

Robert Wolfe
2nd April 2002, 17:04
The thing that really eats cotton keikogi is bleach -- if you use a detergent with bleach alternative you'll get some extra mileage from your uniforms, but in hard training it'll still be a trick to get as much as a year from a heavyweight jacket.

Gary Dolce
2nd April 2002, 18:30
I have found that typically the first place my dogi tend to wear out is along the crease that runs along the outside of the sleeve. My theory is that this part of the dogi top tends to rub more against other things in the washer. Turning the top inside out before washing seems to cut down quite a bit on wear in this location.

Now if I could only figure out a way to cut down on wear along the top of the dogi pants where the tie runs through them.

kenshorin
2nd April 2002, 19:51
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
I know a lot of people who "air dry" their dogis between workouts and only wash them once a week. Now, I also see a lot of these people have yellow stains on their dogi armpits and other places, and that is from bacteria growing on the sweat left in their dogi between washings. These people also tell me that their dogi is very stiff when they put it on - seems pretty nasty to me.

First of all (obviously) is to wear a good quality uniform, not a Century - heavyweight dealie. There's NO WAY to make a Century uniform last. I personally like Shureidos, and Tokaido is good too. Yeah, they're more money, but considering how much longer they last it's worth it.

I am assuming that in your specific case, however, that you are already wearing a quality uniform, knowing how long you've been a poster around here. I have found that air-drying keeps them in good shape longer. The way I do it is I simply own as many uniforms as classes that I am going to attend over a week and a half period. I attend 4 classes a week, so I keep 6 uniforms on hand. When 2 have been used, I wash them. (I can't load more than two into the washer anyways... they get HEAVY when wet) and as they are air drying, I have plenty of others on hand. Also, I have them professionally drycleaned every so often to avoid that nasty discoloration.

Initially, this is expensive, having that many uniforms on hand. However, they will last FOREVER, and after the initial purchase you need only buy new uniforms as they need replacing, and I've never had to replace more than one in any short term period.


Originally posted by keithpenner
I wash mine after every practice. Washer and dryer. I find that machine drying the dogi rather than line drying keeps it a little softer. Washing it after every practice makes me much happier regarding odor, and probably makes me more popular in class too.

I also like the feel and odor after a machine dry. However, my uniform wears out sooner if it is machine dryed. What I do is after the uniform is thoroughly air-dried I throw it into the machine for ten minutes. Gives it that same feeling without undergoing a full 50 minute drying/tumbling routine.

Shitoryu Dude
3rd April 2002, 22:54
I was wondering if anyone else had the same experience with Century uniforms not lasting as long as I thought they should. Now I know :) I've also considered going from 2 uniforms to 4 or more, but I wanted to get dogis that lasted better before I sank too much money into them.

I've just put a Tokeido dogi on order at my dojo in order to see how well it will hold up as compared to the ones that cost less than half as much. But the good thing about Century uniforms is that you can quite often order your pants and jackets separately - I don't really fit into a standard size and have considered buying custom fit uniforms for some time. Know anyplace other than Century that supplies custom fit dogis?

:beer:

tddeangelo
6th April 2002, 17:50
Century's uniforms are not great quality. I can only speak about their judogi's from experience, however. I became so frustrated with the quality of their judogi that I decided to spend the money and I bought two Toraki judogi. I don't regret a cent of the money spent on the Toraki's, even though my sensei can get Century at wholesale for us (and he doesn't make money from gi sales, so I don't deny revenue to the dojo by purchasing elsewhere).

I personally had only one gi directly from Century, and it ripped on me (during my shodan exam, of all times!), causing me to take a hard fall on my shoulder because my tori lost his grip on me in mid-throw. Several students in my sensei's dojo have a Century gi. Some have lasted, but many have ripped, some multiple times.

I can't really speak to the quality of their other uniform lines, but their judo gi is not very high quality. I could purchase them for about $25 a piece through my sensei, but I chose to buy the Toraki gi instead. My two Toraki gi's combined cost me about $280, including shipping. They are as close to custom fit as it comes (Toraki emailed back and forth repeatedly with me getting measurements and picking the sizes that would best fit me, and I could by pants and jacket in separate sizes). For those needing a good judogi, they beat Century, hands down.

Johan Tibell
10th April 2002, 08:58
Our dojo:

"Mandantory"
Swedish Budo Federation membership @ $10/year.
Training fee @ $65/quarter or $40 for students.
Exam fees (assuming 2 exams per year) @ $20/year.

Sum: $290/year or $190/year for students.

"Extra"
Keiko-gi @ $45-$90/year.
4 seminar fees @ $120/year.
Traininig weapons, assuming one buys new every 5 years @ $25/year.

Sum: $190-$235/year.

Total: $380-$525/year. :)

Sports in Sweden are generally cheaper to practice than elsewhere (a year of soccer practice @ $25/year for kids) because of fundings from the government and from large corporations.

- Johan

brianbarton
10th April 2002, 09:51
I am an ITF Taekwon-Do student training in the UK.

I pay a monthly fee of £60 for membership to a health club. This entitles me to free use of the gym, swimming, sauna, spa, all aerobics classes (including Taekwon-Do).

So I don't actually pay my instructor anything for the classes. All I pay for is £20 for ITF membership and insurance plus £10 for each grading I attend.

kenshorin
16th April 2002, 18:30
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude

I've just put a Tokeido dogi on order at my dojo in order to see how well it will hold up as compared to the ones that cost less than half as much. But the good thing about Century uniforms is that you can quite often order your pants and jackets separately - I don't really fit into a standard size and have considered buying custom fit uniforms for some time. Know anyplace other than Century that supplies custom fit dogis?
:beer:

Tokaidos and Shureidos fit much better than Centurys because you can order them in half-sizes. Also, the company my dojo orders Shureidos from (Ryukyu Enterprises) will mix and match the pants and jackets. I can try to look up their info. I think you will like the Tokaido much better. It is just a better quality than the Century, hands down.

Shitoryu Dude
16th April 2002, 18:40
Getting my Tokeido dogi last week was fantastic. To start of with, it fit properly without having to hem the legs and arms by about 14" each. Also, the material was much nicer - soft and smooth instead of feeling like an old tarp left in sun and rain for a year. Century uniforms require at least 4 washings to be wearable. I also noticed the little things that showed an understanding of where the stress and wear points were. I just sewed on a new dojo patch and set it on top of my other uniforms.

Now if I could just speed up time and get this damn kidney stent out and start hitting up the dojo 5 times a week again.

:beer:

TomMarker
25th April 2002, 16:20
I guess I'm lucky.

I train on a college campus for $30/quarter (10 weeks per quarter) and at three classes per week, I average roughly $1 per class.

My next rank test will run me $200 though (e dan) Gup/Kyu testings are 2-3 times per year and about $25.

Shitoryu Dude
25th April 2002, 17:21
I just wrote out a check for $800 for a one year contract. Seems I get a price break when I do it that way. AndI don't have to worry about cutting a check the 1st of the month anymore. :)

:beer:

gendzwil
30th April 2002, 19:33
Here's fees for a beginning kendo player in our club

Fees to the YMCA where we train - $225/year (this is about the same as we charged when we rented space and administered costs ourselves)
CKF membership fee - $15/year
Grading fees (optional) - $50/year
Shinai - 2/year @ $40
Uniform - $150, probably replace it in 5 years so $30/year
Bogu - rent at $40/year
Annual seminar (optional) - $60

So totally $CDN500 ($US313) if the student attends the annual seminar and grades. He could pay more if he chose to attend other club's seminars or attend tournaments but beginners rarely do. Advanced players up the costs as they attend more events, buy better shinai and swankier uniforms, own their own bogu and pay higher grading fees. I probably pay $CDN400/year more on average for this stuff not including travel expenses. OTOH as a volunteer instructor I don't have to pay the YMCA fees.

I think this is pretty typical for kendo where the instruction is almost always volunteer and practices are only held 2-3 times per week.

PS - one advantage of hakama - they rarely need washing so a good pair lasts a long time.

Steve Williams
2nd May 2002, 00:35
Originally posted by gendzwil
PS - one advantage of hakama - they rarely need washing so a good pair lasts a long time.

My understanding (and brief foray into kendo) is that no underwear is worn under Hakama.......


Must start to be a little "fresh" if you don't wash it that much ;)

gendzwil
3rd May 2002, 15:51
Originally posted by Steve Williams


My understanding (and brief foray into kendo) is that no underwear is worn under Hakama.......


Must start to be a little "fresh" if you don't wash it that much ;)

Many of us wear underwear. Also the keikogi extends to about mid-thigh, so most of the sweat or whatever is absorbed by the gi. The hakama mostly just gets dusty.

Kimpatsu
6th May 2002, 11:20
Originally posted by gendzwil
most of the sweat or whatever is absorbed by the gi.
AAggrrhh...!!! Dogi, dogi, dogi! How many more times????!!!

Chiburi
14th May 2002, 16:51
Mr. Kehoe,

You taught me to say Dogi, and I've passed it on to some of the other students. So THANK YOU! :D

George Ledyard
15th May 2002, 08:38
According to the trade journals I get because I have a dojo, the national average for martial arts sinstruction in the US is $100 / month. In many schools you are encouraged to train only a couple of times per week (not more as they don't want to have too many people in class). One of my senior students was actually told by his previous instructor (Kung Fu) not to train so much and to ask fewer questions. I guess he took up too much time and effort for the dollars he was paying.

The dues at my school are $95 per month. That includes as much daily training as you'd like, we have classes six days a week and it also includes the three major weekend seminars we hold each year (we normally have Ikeda Sensei, Gleason Sensei and a third teacher who may not be as well known but whom I think is really excellent (this year it is Clint George Sensei, next year it will be Kayla Feder Sensei). So technically our dues are really $85 / month and then I put $10 / month aside for each student so that when the seminars take place I have enough money to pay the Sensei before the event takes place. This allows me to support Senseis who may not have the big names and the big draw but who I think are deserving of recognition and exposure.

We also host a string of One Day Intensives which are on Sundays through the year. If someone pays as they go they are $45 for the day but the students can incorporate them into their dues if they wish by paying $115 / month; if they only attend one every two months it is still cheaper to do this. Almost all of the senior students do this as they attend these events regularly.

The students generally seem to prefer to put everything into their dues because when the events take place they don't have to come up with any lump payments. Events have been better attended since we went to this system (I think it goes over better with the spouses who don't train as well). It certainly is easier for me as it makes for a more consistent and predictable cash flow (important since my bills are very consistent and predictable).

Rogier
15th May 2002, 08:49
wait a minute.... 2 people actually voted that they paid 10.000+ a year???????? are they out of their minds???

Onno
26th May 2002, 01:58
Thank you Blondie for the correction of dogi. I have had my own small crusade about that too.

Our Club fess are $30.00 CND a month. I think the average around these parts is more like $55-65 though.

Onno Kok
Alberta Canada

Hanna B
27th May 2002, 08:40
Originally posted by Rogier
wait a minute.... 2 people actually voted that they paid 10.000+ a year???????? are they out of their minds???

Well, some people are not serious all the time. For instance, I believed that applied to your web page. Maybe I was wrong. :D

Regards,
Hanna Björk

gendzwil
29th May 2002, 19:25
Originally posted by Kimpatsu

AAggrrhh...!!! Dogi, dogi, dogi! How many more times????!!!
We say gi, kendogi or keikogi. Dogi might be the convention where you train but really alternate terminology does exist.

You say bokuto, I say bokken...

Rogier
30th May 2002, 07:28
We say gi, kendogi or keikogi. Dogi might be the convention where you train but really alternate terminology does exist.

You say bokuto, I say bokken...

It doesn't matter how you say it or how your friends say it, Kimpatsu is trying to point out how it is supposed to be said (as in correct japanese..)

gendzwil
30th May 2002, 14:47
Originally posted by Rogier


It doesn't matter how you say it or how your friends say it, Kimpatsu is trying to point out how it is supposed to be said (as in correct japanese..)

Kendogi or keikogi is not correct Japanese? I'll just go mail in corrections for all those budogu catalogs I've got kicking around :)

I'll ask my instructor about the short form "gi" as I can't recall if he says that or not. There are regional differences in how terms are used, which is why I brought up the bokuto/bokken thing. Really depends on where your instructor is from as to which of those terms is used. OTOH maybe he's just never bothered to correct me on the use of the term "gi".

Rogier
30th May 2002, 14:53
as I can't explain it well enough myself I'll just do some copy and paste:


The correct term is "dogi." "Gi" alone is meaningless, and in fact would have to be pronounced "ki", as it is derived from the stem of the verb "kiru", meaning "to wear." "Dogi" means literally, "Clothes of the way." (“¹’…). IMO, the mistake arises because of words like "Judogi" and "Karatedogi," which people parse incorrectly as, "Judo-gi," and "Karatedo-gi," when in fact both terms are contractions of "Judo-dogi" and "Karatedo-dogi" respectively. The fact remains, however, that only "dogi" is correct, and the
90% of the world outside Japan that says only "gi" is incorrect. In Japan, of course, 100% of people get it right. HTH.


the wise words of Tony Kehoe (Kimpatsu) :D

Shitoryu Dude
3rd June 2002, 01:50
I'd like to point out that we now have some 122 responses to the poll, and only 7 of them all outside of the $1500 range. Statistically, we can now say that you are paying $1500 or more in fees to your dojo each year, something is VERY, VERY WRONG.

Time to find another dojo.

:beer:

mushinmaster
10th June 2002, 20:39
They might not be doing something wrong. Private instruction, from well-known and qualified instructors, can be very very expensive, yet worth the cost (I hope!).

icynorth
13th June 2002, 16:26
Fundraisers in our school are held to buy weapons etc. "dogi" are about 40 bucks cdn from our supplier, the seem to hold up. When a beginner is in the cost is 60 bucks. After (th kyu they are required to buy a gi and patch, 10 bucks. Monthly fee is 15 dollars. No annual reg and no testing fees after that. Several training trips are taken, again these are mostly handled by fundraisers like car washes etc. That has been prety successful as 3 of us are flying to Colorado in July on money raised.

Scott Laking
25th September 2003, 14:46
I haven't read every page on this thread so I hope I'm not repeating something.
I thought some might be interested in what I'm paying in Japan.
Shooting Gym Osaka: Open all year long but only two official classes a night, $86 a month. (Japanese average for all you can train)
BushinKai Karate: $39 a month, one to two times a week. (Japanese average for once or twice a week training)
Shobunkan Aikido: $39 a month, with classes 6 days a week. (really cheap!)
Sekiguchi Ryu Jujutsu: $39 a month, once a week. (average)
Fusen Ryu Jujutsu (includes Enshin Ryu iai) $86 a month, 6 days a week. (The only Koryu I know that charges this much. Some students only come once a week and pay this).
TSD Kali, $86 a month. They are open every day and include all kinds of styles to learn as well as English lesson, aerobics, Jazz dance etc. (I stopped going here when Shooto came to Osaka 3 or 4 years ago).
I'm not a member but I know the nearby Pancrase Gym also charges $86 a month.
$86 works out to be an even 10,000 yen which is a single bill here in Japan. The schools charge 10,000 to 20,000 for registration when you first start.
I truely believe that it's worth putting out bucks for a good instructor.

BULLDOG
26th September 2003, 11:06
Hello,

IS SOMETHING WRONG ?

I am charged $ 50 a month.

I teach three times a week.

The school is open six times a week and the head master is there from about 1 to 2 times a week.

IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS ?

I NEED YOUR INPUT!

BULLDOG
Ed Barton

kage110
26th September 2003, 11:48
My training fees work out as follows:

Annual mambership (inc. insurance) £30 ($50)

Monthly training fees work out to be approx. £30 ($50)

Three patches that should be worn approx $10 each (bought once though, unless you have more than one dogi...)

Seminars - we are expected to turn up to at leat one seminar per year but it is not obligatory, just expected. They run between £25 and £75 ($40-$125) and there are 4 per year. Travel and acommodation on top could cost quite a bit more depending on how far we have to travel it could cost as little as $5 or as much as $300.

We are expected to obtain certain weapons as we reach particular grades and while we can obtain them through the dojo we are free to buy what we want where we want providing it is safe enough to do the job. Same goes for the dogi, we are required to have black dogi (which can be hard to come by) - and later a hakama - but we are free to buy where we want (through the dojo can be cheaper though).

All gradings are free - you don't even have to buy a belt (it is presented to you by the club and handed on to the next person when you move up a grade - nice tradition this) though you do have to buy a 'star' to put on your badge (approx. $5).

All in all, a year's training costs in the region of £450 ($750) in dojo fees and fixed costs. Costs of weapons, dogi and travel, etc. are extra.

Our dojo is housed in a community centre owned by the local government so the rent is ridiculously low. Our instructor makes no money from training us but he considers himself a student and would rather not be the instructor anyway (damn good instructor though!).

ksr1219
29th September 2003, 20:27
$60 a year :D Thank God for Dr. Friday...

Jearom
29th September 2003, 22:48
First, I pay around $215 a year.
Second, I`ve searched through my books(only two) and the catalog from E-bogu.
Book one: "This is Kendo" by Junzo Sasamori and Gordon Warner, refers to the jacket worn in Kendo as "keikogi".
Book two: "Kendo, The definite guide" by Hiroshi Ozawa, calls it "keiko-gi".
E-bogu = keiko gi or keikogi.
Finally, check this link out, Koei Budogu CO LTD, a japanese company, who sells "Kendo Gi".
http://www.koei-budogu.co.jp/koei_budogu_e/ichiran/index.htm

Scott Laking
30th September 2003, 05:22
I've been in Japan 16 years and don't recall anyone calling it a 'gi' here. I think it's an English word now. Keiko gi, uwagi, do gi. I think are the most common in the arts I do. Sometimes to differentiate the types, they will refer to one as a 'kendo gi, karate gi, judo gi', but usually they say keiko gi or do gi. I like dogi style myself :D

Rogier
30th September 2003, 06:40
Originally posted by Scott Laking
I've been in Japan 16 years and don't recall anyone calling it a 'gi' here. I think it's an English word now. Keiko gi, uwagi, do gi. I think are the most common in the arts I do. Sometimes to differentiate the types, they will refer to one as a 'kendo gi, karate gi, judo gi', but usually they say keiko gi or do gi. I like dogi style myself :D

my friend... you should talk to Kimpatsu.... his Dogi rants are famous..

shotofan
2nd October 2003, 01:13
My sensei charges 600 a month and that covers all testing for new kyu. Pays for the award he gives you when you recive a new rank. We go twice a week for 2 hours sundays all optinal. But included in the price. The only thing it doesn't pay for is sparring gear or gis.
Oh if you go up in rank he pays for the new color belts also. So I think I got a pretty good deal.
There are some schools in my town that charge 60 a month and that pays for the leason and nothing else. No testing, gis gear.. Nothing...:beer:


:beer:

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2003, 01:29
Originally posted by shotofan
The only thing it doesn't pay for is sparring gear or gis.
Dogi.
"Gi" is a non-word, as verified by the Kojien.

Scott Laking
2nd October 2003, 03:37
"Gi" is a non-word, as verified by the Kojien.
Well it's not a JAPANESE word. I think it's used in English enough to be considered a word or at least an abbreviation.

Kimpatsu
2nd October 2003, 03:40
Originally posted by Scott Laking
Well it's not a JAPANESE word. I think it's used in English enough to be considered a word or at least an abbreviation.
But no one uses it like that. They say "gi" mistakenly thinking it's a Japanese word. it grates on the ear of Japanese speakers because it breaks the grammatical rules of euphony. Japanese is the lingua franca of MA, and as such, we should use it correctly, regardless of the misapprehensions of others.

shotofan
2nd October 2003, 17:23
Sorry to upset up Kimpatsu.. I will the word uniform from now.. I know it not a japanese word but most people know the word gi:rolleyes:

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 00:12
Originally posted by shotofan
Sorry to upset up Kimpatsu.. I will the word uniform from now.. I know it not a japanese word but most people know the word gi:rolleyes:
Then most people you know are wrong. The Japanese is "dogi". If you don't want to use it, why do you say "karate" and not "empty hand", or "shoto" instead of "eastern pine"?
See earlier posts for my explanation of why it is wrong.

shotofan
3rd October 2003, 00:24
I know the word is dogi.. It is the words can not are shorten can't

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 00:36
Originally posted by shotofan
I know the word is dogi.. It is the words can not are shorten can't
Pardon? :confused:

shotofan
3rd October 2003, 01:04
nver mind.. I'm afrid this will turned into a argument

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 01:12
Originally posted by shotofan
nver mind.. I'm afrid this will turned into a argument
Is this a new kind of shorthand? "Nver", "afrid"... What were you trying to say?

shotofan
3rd October 2003, 01:24
never mind afraid.. Lets start over..

Hi I'm Aaron. I study Shotokan... How bout you?

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 01:29
Originally posted by shotofan
never mind afraid.. Lets start over..
Hi I'm Aaron. I study Shotokan... How bout you?
I'm Tony, I'm a Shorinji Kenshi, and I speak Japanese...

shotofan
3rd October 2003, 01:31
Cool I want to learn japanese

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 01:33
Originally posted by shotofan
Cool I want to learn japanese
And I want to be an astronaut... ;)

larsen_huw
3rd October 2003, 09:52
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
And I want to be an astronaut... ;)


astronaut hey Tony .....

Why do i feel a Lunar-tic joke coming on? :D

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 10:58
Originally posted by larsen_huw
astronaut hey Tony .....
Why do i feel a Lunar-tic joke coming on? :D
'Cos your head's full of space... :D

larsen_huw
3rd October 2003, 11:21
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
'Cos your head's full of space... :D

Space? Isn't that just behind my final front-ear?

:laugh:

ok ... lets leave it there before we turn yet another thread into a bad pun-fest.

monkeyboy_ssj
3rd October 2003, 12:06
Ok,

Am I the only person worried about the 2 people who have voted $10,000+?

I really hope that these votes were not real, because that would just be...I don't know...I can't think of a word to describle that amount of stupidity.

Also the other 2 paying between $5000 and $10,000 that's about $416at the minimum a month :eek:

I pay £40 notes a month for as many times a month as i want to go.

p.s. Hew, terrible joke!

Rogier
3rd October 2003, 12:08
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Ok,

Am I the only person worried about the 2 people who have voted $10,000+?

I really hope that these votes were not real, because that would just be...I don't know...I can't think of a word to describle that amount of stupidity.

p.s. Hew, terrible joke!

you're not the only one, I think I asked these person to post in one of the first pages of this thread...

I just can't imagine that anyone is actually paying that kind of money...

monkeyboy_ssj
3rd October 2003, 12:09
Originally posted by Rogier
you're not the only one, I think I asked these person to post in one of the first pages of this thread...

I just can't imagine that anyone is actually paying that kind of money...

Yeah, too right.

Is there anyway we could ask a moderator to tell us who they are?

larsen_huw
3rd October 2003, 12:10
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Yeah, too right.

Is there anyway we could ask a moderator to tell us who they are?

Matt,

i think that would break E-Budo policy .... so no, i don't think we can ask.

P.S. It's Huw. Not Hew.

monkeyboy_ssj
3rd October 2003, 12:13
Originally posted by larsen_huw
Matt,

i think that would break E-Budo policy .... so no, i don't think we can ask.

P.S. It's Huw. Not Hew.

yeah, probably.

Oops! he's going to kill me, I ALWAYS get it wrong...;) Sorry mate!

Huw Huw Huw *smacks it into head*

larsen_huw
3rd October 2003, 12:28
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
...
Oops! he's going to kill me, I ALWAYS get it wrong...;) Sorry mate!
...

Don't worry about it, i'll survive! :)

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 13:48
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
yeah, probably.

Oops! he's going to kill me, I ALWAYS get it wrong...;) Sorry mate!

Huw Huw Huw *smacks it into head*
Stop making a huw and cry about it. :D

monkeyboy_ssj
3rd October 2003, 13:57
Tony,

How much does your dojo pay you to stay away? :D

Cheeeeeeeeers!

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 15:54
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Tony,

How much does your dojo pay you to stay away? :D

Cheeeeeeeeers!
They pay me more than you could afford to come here and make your life hell.

monkeyboy_ssj
3rd October 2003, 16:00
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
They pay me more than you could afford to come here and make your life hell.

I could afford to come out there if I wanted, could even stay with some famous rockstars...or get my haircut for free at a Yakuza hairdressers...but you'll be here on my turf soon :D

or maybe you enjoy that sort of think? hmm? I've always thought you were a bit sadomasacist...

Ja!

Kimpatsu
3rd October 2003, 16:08
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
or maybe you enjoy that sort of think? hmm? I've always thought you were a bit sadomasacist...
Yes, Shorinji Kempo soon whipped me into shape...

shotofan
3rd October 2003, 23:46
For 10,000 a year the sensei better be one kick-a$$ bad a$$. All supplys so be included in the price. If he had 10 students that would be 100,000 a year. Even if they took half in taxes that is still more than enough to live off of.:D

xensu
2nd November 2003, 06:22
my teacher holds practice on a donation basis.

Rogier
3rd November 2003, 08:35
Originally posted by shotofan
For 10,000 a year the sensei better be one kick-a$$ bad a$$. All supplys so be included in the price. If he had 10 students that would be 100,000 a year. Even if they took half in taxes that is still more than enough to live off of.:D

no ones is good enough to charge 10,000 a year

paco
4th November 2003, 20:37
10 US dolars a month

rinpoche
4th November 2003, 21:12
I wouldn't get all worked up about the $10,000

EVERY survey has errors and they can come from several sources.

1. Bad survey design
2. Misunderstood questions
3. People lie
4. People answer in ways they think will make them look better
etc

I sat in on a lecture last year from one of the US's leading experts in survey design (whose name escapes me now since I am not an academic groupie). He had samples of survey questions where slight changes in the wording of questions completley skewed the answers.

Question design is the #1 problem with surveys.

Proper sampling is also a problem. This test will not generate the nationwide or worldwide average tuition accurately for sampling reasons. repondants to this survey may not accurately represent the people practicing martial arts because:
1. All respondants here must have access to the Internet and net enabled population may be different than martial arts population
2. The survey is in English
3. There is no control to make sure respondants actually practice a martial art
4. There is no way to know if people are logging in with more than one account and answering more than once
etc.

If you could control all of these things, and ask the right questions, you would want at least 500 respondants to mathematically rule out skew due to error.

So, no I don't think anybody actually pays a dojo $10,000 a year to train - but I suppose it's possible.

kenshorin
13th November 2003, 16:31
Originally posted by rinpoche
2. The survey is in English


Maybe the person answering is paying 10,000 pesos per month, and didn't really understand the dollar sign! :D

Actually, an excellent post which brought back to mind a statistics class I took in college where we discussed similar stuff, but haven't given thought to in a while.

Rogier
14th November 2003, 07:41
Originally posted by rinpoche
This test will not generate the nationwide or worldwide average tuition accurately for sampling reasons. repondants to this survey may not accurately represent the people practicing martial arts because:
1. All respondants here must have access to the Internet and net enabled population may be different than martial arts population

as far as I understand the whole thing was aimed mainly at the people who reside on e-budo. That's probably why it was posted here..... (duh)


2. The survey is in English

a language which about 99% of the populace in here speaks/writes/understands, why else would the go to a forum in which we only write English.


3. There is no control to make sure respondants actually practice a martial art
4. There is no way to know if people are logging in with more than one account and answering more than once
etc.

as this is not a real survey of major importance you can rule those two out and have some faith in the people on e-budo.


If you could control all of these things, and ask the right questions, you would want at least 500 respondants to mathematically rule out skew due to error.

yes I too have had classes in statistics and have followed several lectures about surveys. But the simple fact is that this is not a survey.... it is just a simple question what people pay. A survey is held to obtain information which is later used for a specific goal. This question is not.. just someone who wants to know what other pay.


So, no I don't think anybody actually pays a dojo $10,000 a year to train - but I suppose it's possible.

so yes, if someone says that they pay this I actually believe them. If a friend tells you:"I earn $100 bucks an hour". Do you tell him:"I don't believe that, this was not a correct survey!" ???

Perry Robertson
27th November 2003, 14:41
Hi Everyone,

I'm a group leader (not official Dojo-cho, yet!).

I charge my students $5 per class up to a max of $25 per month. Good incentive for students to come out more than 5 times a month but for the students who can't make it out much because of work don't get their wallets raped. I will likely up this amount once I am dojo-cho and have a better training facility.

Cheers,

Scott Laking
28th November 2003, 02:52
I think this poll was a great idea, but now I'm wishing it had been split up into two polls. Dues for physical schools that do it for a living, pay rent, advertising, utilities, wages, and insurance, and dues for back yard, park and community center teachers.

Mekugi
28th November 2003, 06:27
I converted and rounded...and yeah Tony has raised a point I would like to add to, is this in USD or AUD?

Remember the inter-net is inter-net-ional.

Todays rate for the yen to USD is about 109 Yen to the 1 dollar.


Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Could we have the poll in yen, please? :D

incoqnito
11th December 2003, 22:23
I pay 1.234.567.890 $/year and if you believe me I've got two Eiffel Towers and a piece of the Chinese Wall for sale - special price for you my friend(insert smiley with teethes)

Training: 30$/month (7 classes/week)
Annual fee: 0$
Grading (kyu): 7$ (prize of diploma)
No badge but you can borrow a pen to write your name on you left shoulder for free (not optional).

Hidden costs:
After training beer: >30$/month
Seminars, intern: 50$ (2-4/year) incl. party
Seminars, extern, local: 60$ (1/year)
Seminars, extern, not local: 800$ (1/year)

Regarding clothes I've got a gi, a dogi and a dogigi (they are named) and there is nothing you can do about it!
I wash them once a week/after 5-7 classes and they last forever (6 years until now). No odor complaints yet.

Peace:-)

Blackwood
23rd January 2004, 04:32
Okay, so let's see about this:

Dojo cost $0 - However the health club membership is $120 a month. For the whole family of four. With indoor/outdoor pool, gym, track, sauna, steam room, whirlpool, weight room, towels, soap etc.

Annual dues to Association - $30
Testing fees $50 a year for last two years. This year black belt test will such in $150.
Gi - One new one a year $175 patches embroidered into it already.
National Training Seminar - optional but highly encouraged (and who wouldn't want to go?) $215 including room and board for three days.

Contributions to visiting Sensei fund is probably another 100 a year, I usually toss a 20. (When the 10th Dan head of association visits.)

My costs for my branch location (teaching kids only)
12.5% to the facility.
Insurance provided.
20% to help
20% for belts, patches and other promotional items

I charge $5 a class for under 9 (once a week) and $8 a class for over 9 (twice a week). No contract required. Currently finishing first month and have 18 students, 9 in each class.