Hypnosis, NLP, and the Combative Edge

[Darren Laur]

Hypnosis, NLP, and the Combative Edge



I truly believe that Hypnosis and NLP it is going to be the next "nexus" in combative training. Let me explain

As trainers, we attempt to make the trained response the dominate response. How do we do this, by teaching gross motor skills and utilizing the training techniques of REPETITION. and scenario based training.

As a Certified Hypnotherapist CHt. ( My training was through a company called the “Meridian Institute, 180hrs of training, and my Certification is through the “International Medical and Dental Hypnotherapy Association”), at my school I have not only been able to increase retention and usability of specific motor skills through Hypnosis and NLP techniques, but I have been able to decrease the amount of time needed to get the specific motor skill taught to be downloaded into the subconscious mind. What does this mean, when hypnosis is used with physical repetition, the amount of time needed to become unconsciously competent is decreased dramatically !!!! This is a training technique that both amateur and professional athletes have been using for years.


Traditionally, trainers have used lots of repetition to pound a specific motor skill through the conscious/ critical mind, and into the subconscious mind. Through hypnosis, we can take a motor skill program, and directly download it (by-passing the conscious/critical mind) into the subconscious. It must be understood however, that hypnosis is not an alternative to actual physical repetition, but when used in conjunction with repetition, hypnosis can greatly increase motor skill performance and warrior instinct !!!


Here is one way that I use hypnosis to increase motor skill performance:


Step #1:

New motor skill taught and chunked until student is consciously competent


Step #2:

Once student is consciously competent, induction into state of hypnosis where I now download program into subconscious.


Step #3:

Once Motor Skill program has been downloaded into subconscious, student is taken through a guided imagery session, where the motor skill taught is being utilized in a real world scenario.


Step #4:

Student is exited from hypnosis, and motor skill is again physically practiced. From my experience, you can usually see immediate results.


On average, depending upon the motor skill being learned, 6-12 sessions of hypnosis are utilized. A fellow police trainer has found for firearms training, an increase in performance can take place after only ONE session.


I also teach my students, to utilize self-guided imagery session, which only enhances and compounds the specific Motor Skill(s)

The science and art of hypnosis and NLP are two tools that all trainers should be utilizing with students. Like any tool, get professional training and certification first. Do your homework, there are a number of schools out there that advertise that they offer "certified hypnotherpist" and "NLP" training, but really don't, and only want to take your money. My CHt training was over 180hrs.


To my knowledge, there are only two individuals presently using hypnosis and NLP in combatives training, myself and a fellow police trainer by the name of Brian Willis. In fact, the FBI is so impressed with Brian's results, they have sent representatives from Quantico's physical training branch to look into what is being done by us Canadians.


Yes, Gross motor skills are easily learned through repetition, but with the inclusion of hypnosis and NLP, they are learned faster and in combative context. Remember, the subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Through proper and professional guided imagery sessions (hypnosis), I can place my students in "any" combative situation where they are there in mind, body, and spirit. This is very powerful due to the 7 "P" principal of personal safety : "proper pre-planning prevents piss poor performance"


Hypnosis and motor skill performance enhancement is real. Both amateur and professional athletes have been using it for years ( I suggest you read a book called " The Mental Edge") Unfortunately, as a professional Hypnotherapist, I must fight the myths surrounding this topic because of what stage hypnotists do. I too was a non-believer until I was exposed to it. I'm a big believer in "don't tell me something is going to work, show me it is going to work" The results that I have seen, as well as other trainers, speak for themselves.


This is not Voodoo or sitting on a mountain to be enlightened. Hypnosis is both a science and art that CAN and WILL give a Combative Edge !!!!!



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur
Integrated Street Combatives

[meat]

Very interesting post Darren. You might be interested to know that meditation has an amazing effect on skill acquistion as well. I've been meditating for about a year now and things seem so much easier to learn and get ingrained. My instructor used to teach Buddhist monks and he said the speed with which they picked things up was nothing short of remarkable. I've been reading about hypnosis in my psych textbook, looks very interesting. Do you have any good links that I can check out?

[Darren Laur]

Peter:

Check out your local University sports psychology department, they should be able to help you out. With respect to training, make sure you find an accredited school of hypnosis/NLP. There are a lot of quacks out their teaching this stuff, so one must be very careful.


Ken:

I'm located in the lovely city of Victoria British Columbia, Canada.



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

[kenjgood]

Let me start off by saying this is not meant to be antagonistic or divisive in any way. My post is more of a gut level, instinctive reaction than a scientific counter-point argument and for that I apologize.

Quoted from Darren:
I truly believe that Hypnosis and NLP it is going to be the next "nexus" in combative training.

With all due respect, in a NUTshell (no pun intended :laugh: ) it is my stated opinion that you may be dabbling with and promoting practices that could prove to be quite negative to the human mind and the human spirit.

Quoted from Darren:
"Through proper and professional guided imagery sessions (hypnosis), I can place my students in "any" combative situation where they are there in mind, body, and spirit."

I for one would not voluntarily allow anybody to work underneath my mental or spiritual hood in a state of mind that I do not have full control over. Since I cannot articulate in a quantitative/qualitative manner all the pros & cons of your procedures at this time, I am just tossing my “uninformed” opinion against the wall for now. I will look into some of the methodologies you are promoting as a result of your post.

I will state that there are many things that are out there that appear to “work” for the good but do not ultimately prove to be beneficial when viewed over the long run. History bears this out.

Citing sources in the FBI as being interested proves nothing one way of the other and adds a false credibility to the argument presented.

I just finished a fantastic Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev of SYSTEMA or the System. His teacher Mikhail Ryabko a Spetsnaz operative and unbelievable martial artist was asked if one should mediate to learn to harness, direct and use the natural energy of the human body. His answer was an empathic NO. Reason given: it leads to darkness, as in spiritual darkness. I am going to extrapolate and apply this same type of reasoning to the altered state of mind that occurs during hypnosis. The Russians have EXTENSIVE experience in these matters.

For now, I am with the Systema boyz on this one. Stay away from this so-called science.

It is better to understand what has been given by the Creator and respond accordingly.

More to follow, I am sure.

[Darren Laur]

Ken:

What I do with my students, with respect to hypnosis/NLP and motor skill development/enhancement, is no different than what professional/ and high-level amateur athletes have been using for years to increase athletic performance. Both hypnosis and NLP are sciences, and when used appropriately, by those who are qualified, can be very positive and have long lasting effects.

Ken you stated:

“I for one would not voluntarily allow anybody to work underneath my mental or spiritual hood in a state of mind that I do not have full control over”

Agreed. I only use this type of training on those students who volunteer and understand both its strengths and weaknesses. One of the myths surrounding hypnosis is that one loses control. This is false. All hypnosis is self-hypnosis. This myth is something that I continually attack due to what "stage" hypnotism promotes, and what most uniformed think of,when it comes to hypnosis.


Ken you stated:

“ There are many things that are out there that appear to “work”, but will not ultimately prove to be beneficial in the long run.”

Agreed. At no time did I state that Hypnosis (guided imagery)/ NLP should be used alone. I use these techniques with actual physical repetition. What hypnosis/ NLP does, is to allow us to drop the motor skill program directly into the subconscious quicker. Thus increasing retention.

I am not that familiar with Systema other than what I have read of it on a variety of different forums, so I cannot comment on it. I do however respectfully disagree with Ryabko when he says that one should not meditate to learn to harness, direct and use the natural energy of the human body because it leads to “darkness”. Although the Russians may have extensive experience in these matters, so do the Canadian and American sporting establishments, who have been using these techniques to enhance athletic performance for many many years with excellent results.


What I am preaching is nothing new in the area of motor skill enhancement, but one needs to ensure that they seek only those professionals who are properly trained and certified by a recognized governing body. Can this type of training “screw” with a person’s subconscious and be used inappropriately/unprofessionally? Absolutely. This is why I say; seek out those professionals who are trained in such techniques.


Ken, I enjoyed your posting and in no way did I find it antagonistic or divisive in any way. I am sure that your beliefs are echoed by many on this forum, who are not at all familiar with this topic. Educated debate on this, or any other topic posted, is very healthy. Why? Because knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power. I would encourage you and others to look deeper into what I have shared, from other "credible" sources who have both professional training and experience in the area of hypnosis and NLP. Contact and speak with sport psychologists who specialize in this area specific to motor skill enhancement, I believe you will be surprised at what you find.



PS:

To show you how such training can be used in an negative way, I will share this with you, I posted this over in the Bad Budo forum:


Exposing Martial Art / Self Defence Trickery And Slight Of Hand
Before you read any further, please go to the following internet site first, www.ssmma.com/video/liveseminar.mov and watch what this instructor is doing, and then read my post below. I think you will find it very interesting !!!!!!!!! I know this post might be offensive to some in this forum, but knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power !!!!!!!


Darren







Let’s expose this guy for what he is …….. a charlatan and an entertainer. What he is doing is nothing more that a techniques that is called “Waking Hypnosis” or “Hypersuggestability”. Since I have a background in this topic, I am a Certified Hypnotherapist and working towards my masters in NLP, lets break down what we have just seen in this video.


There are a number of ways to place a “WILLING and COOPERATIVE” person into a state of hypnosis, one of which is “waking hypnosis”. The best way to explain waking hypnosis is when a person in authority, such as a Doctor, tells you that you have only got two weeks to live, and then bang, you die in two weeks. You the client believe without question that the doctor must be right because he is the expert, so his “suggestion” you are going to die in two weeks must be correct and thus the conscious and more importantly the subconscious accept this “suggestion” 100%. Remember that the mind guides the body !!!!!!

In this video, the person in authority is the Instructor, and I use this term sparingly, who is demonstrating this “magical” technique to participants who want to be there and learn ( read WILLING and COOPERATIVE). In fact, you can hear the group calling him Sir, this now “anchors” to everyone, that he is a “person in authority” which is needed to make “Waking Hypnosis” work.

Next, lets look at how he “plants” the “suggestion” you will be knocked out, into the participants subconscious. First, the instructor obviously asked for volunteers. If a person volunteers, it tells the person in authority (hypnotist) that the person is definitely “Willing and Cooperative” and therefore more susceptible to suggestion. Although we did not see it in the video, I am also sure that this instructor conducted some very easy “suggestibility tests”, without letting the participants knowing of course, prior to his demonstration to ensure that he picked the right volunteers to demonstrate on. Heaven forbid he pick someone who would not respond to his suggestion, to do so would result in loss of face and more importantly loss of MONEY to him !!!!!!!!!


Next, The instructor prior to actually performing this “amazing” knock out technique, further “anchors” his suggestion to each participant, by slowly demonstrating what he was going to do to each student. He does this using a technique known as a “Hypnotic Equation”. A hypnotic equation is basically where the instructor is replacing one action with another. In this case, on the first three students, he suggests that when pain or pressure is felt by me striking you, you will go unconscious. This is a classic “Hypnotic Equation” He further anchors this suggestion by showing ( through demonstration first) what each student will do when he performs/applies his “magical” and “awesome” technique……… again give me a break !!!!!!!!


So now, lets look at the actual applications/techniques used by this Instructor. Prior to the actual demonstration, you will not that the instructor uses some humor ( says “ it’s over, did you see that”) to get the group, including his victims, to laugh. Why, because FEAR is one of the factors that can prevent an “induction” from taking place. This is a distraction technique that is used to calm people prior to an “induction”, in this case the technique of “Waking Hypnosis”. A calmer participant = higher suggestibility which = they will do what I need them to do.

Victim#1: Instructor first uses a technique known in hypnosis as a “misdirection”. A misdirection is used to increase a clients receptiveness a suggestibility due to the fact that the conscious brain is reaction as it should thus opening up the subconscious brain to suggestion. The misdirection technique is where the instructor first kicks the inside of the student’s right leg to get a pre-designated response that would happen. Because this worked, the students subconscious mind is now “wide open” to the instructors suggestion which he anchored earlier. The instructor now touches the student’s left side of the head (previously anchored hypnotic equation) at which time the student, “magically” and in “awe” of the group is knocked out and falls to the ground. What one should note, is that when in a state of hypnosis, a participant is still fully in control of his body. If you look closely, you will see victim #1 put his hand out to protect himself as he falls to the ground. If you compare this to an actual knockout, as you see in boxing, the body will fall to the ground like a marionette puppet whose strings have been cut. THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN THIS CASE . Further, after apparently being knocked out and falling to the ground, you will hear the instructor state “back up” (suggestion) to victim #1, touches his head (anchor), at which time the student himself without any real help goes into a seated crossed leg position with his head up, just as the instructor “suggested” he do.


Victim#2: again instructor uses “misdirection techniques” by touching/blocking both arms. He then lifts both hands directly above and to the front of the victims forehead. This technique is known as an “Eye Fascination”. If I can get a person to do an eye/lid lift, it places one’s brain activity into a state of “alpha”. When the brain is in a state of alpha, a person becomes more suggestible. Instructor then strikes the victim in the chest with both hands ( anchored hypnotic equation) at which time the victim falls to the ground unconscious. Again notice that as this victim falls, he puts his hands out to protect himself from the fall. Also how once again the instructor goes over to this victim once grounded, again touches him (anchor) and then says “head up” at which time the victim immediately does as he is told.


Victim#3: again instructor uses “misdirection technique” and then uses and “anchored hypnotic equation, by striking the subject to both side of his neck. Again watch how this victim falls, and also note how the instructor again touches the subject after this knock out.



Victim #4: This is a very interesting one to watch, and more importantly to break down. Again the instructor uses a misdirection technique ( has the student grab him with two hands) but this time the instructor does not use a physical touch of any kind, but places his hands above the victims forehead about 3-4 inches away (eye fascination technique) and through some kind of “magical force” causes the person to go unconscious. What happened here was that the instructor used a technique known as “compounding” to anchor his earlier hypnotic equation that the person would be knocked out. The victim in this case, watched three separate students be knocked out by the instructor. Because of this fact, each time the student saw the instructor knocking someone out, his subconscious mind was being compounded with the “visual fact” that he would be knocked out too, no matter what this instructor did. As well you will note how the instructor causes the person to move his upper body and head backwards. To the unconscious brain, it equates this motion to falling backwards, and with the previously anchored suggestion, and the fact that the student had seen three other of his colleagues go unconscious, the instructors suggestions were “compounded” thus the knockdown. This is the same technique that a lot of “Pentecostal Ministers” use when they touch a person’s head and yell “your healed” at which time that specific member of his flock falls backwards in what others see as an unconscious state.



What I did not share with you, is that I am a Bruce Siddle PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics) Instructor. For the past ten years, I have been teaching PPCT techniques to police officers in my department. I have also deployed these same techniques in “real world” scenarios. In fact, I can remember knocking a guy out with a full force fluid shock Brachial Plexus Strike. So can a person be knocked out with PPCT techniques? , given the proper context and opportunity, absolutely!!!! But when people get knocked out with a PPCT technique, they do fall like a marionette puppet who’s strings have been cut, not like the guys in the video who were able to control their fall. How these students fell, were identical to those who are placed into a hypnotic state. I have seen, experienced, and applied both, so can comment on this observation. The fact remains, watch the video frame by frame, and watch how these participants are falling, the proof is right there before your eyes !!!!!


This video proves nothing more than the fact that the instructor is very skilled in the area of hypnosis and suggestibility, period, full stop !!!!!!! Teaching this to students in a self defense context is both misleading and negligent, period, full stop. It is because of these charlatans who promote this garbage to uneducated people for nothing more than the old mighty buck, that people are getting seriously hurt or even killed when attempting to use this s**t in the real world.

What you saw in this video, I can replicate time and time again. The ONLY reason this instructor was able to make things work for him was because he had WILLING and COOPERATIVE subjects to work with. On the street I’m pretty sure that your attacker will not be so WILLING and COOPERATIVE, Period, full stop.


This instructor is both an entertainer and a CHARLATON who is not teaching self defence (as he had advertised), but rather “self defeat”. Remember, there is the art form of Martial Arts, and the reality of street combatives/self protection. It is my opinion, that this video shows the “art form” and nothing more. To even attempt this stuff in the real world would likely get one seriously injured, or even killed



I know that this is a heated topic amongst those who believe in this stuff, and skeptics like me who see something else other than what is presented before their eyes. This is why magicians are so good at what it is they do. Until recently, the art of magic was a closed shop, no one else could see what the actual trick was. It was not until a few years ago, when the FOX TV network started airing “magic revealed” (presented by a masked professional magician), that those of us not in the know began to understand the parlor tricks behind the magic. Professional magicians went nuts. Why?, because their tricks were revealed. I am starting to see a direct correlation between the mystical part of the martial arts, and the reality of empirical and scientific research !!!!!



Remember, Knowledge and the understanding of that Knowledge is POWER. It is with such knowledge that we can effectively educate others about these entertainers and what they are actual doing !!!!




Strength and Honor

Darren Laur
Integrated Street Combatives

[Kit LeBlanc]

Ken,

Okay then, what is this about? This is from a Systema article posted on James dojo web site.

Just curious as to what a discussion of this will draw out. Unfortunately many of us do not have the direct experience of Systema to place this in the proper perspective. Some of it sounds like the hypnotism that Darren is debunking with Mooney.

Psychic Energy Excercizes

We were graced by a 5-day training continuum from the great Russia master Mikhail Ryabko, starting last Thursday. I attended all sessions taught by him, except possibly he will teach one last session tonight at the school.

In this thread I can only touch on a few highlights regarding energy work. As for the general martial arts work, it was far too much and too deep for me to cover now, and I'm sure there are many other tougher and more skilled students much better qualified to treat those aspects.

If I may impose a tiny bit of personal analytic framework on the huge load of teachings we got, I would say that MR broke down the work into two very general processes of drill. (1) consists of intensive breathing and other "solo" work on your own body/mind/psyche. (2) consists of work in relation to others. I'll cover his teaching on both aspects, below.

===== Solo Mode ======

The solo work is to built up your own energy and psyche. It seems the the unifying or overarching principle here is simply that the more discomfort you can learn to tolerate, the more you can control yourself, and the more you can avoid feeling sorry for yourself, the more energy and sensitivity you will obtain. Both Vlad and MR said that the purpose of these (below) is not to build muscles or stretch your tendons or whatever (but sure no harm if you like that) but the purpose is to develop your mind and spirt so you won't "feel sorry for yourself" and you will obtain "control, control, control!". OK, In this solo area, we have exercises and drills such as: (All breathing in everything written below is done as ==> inhale through nose, exhale through mouth)

LYING DOWN (on back, arms relaxed at sides): simple in-pause-out; in with right leg tensed/out right leg relaxed; 'left left; 'right arm; 'left arm; 'pelvic area;'stomach';'chest;'back;'entire upper half of body;'entire lower half of body;whole body in/tense-out/relax start at feet for "wave"; whole body in/tense-out/relax start at head for "wave";entire body in/tense-out/relax slowly;entire body in/tense-out/relax quickly.

While still lying down, feel pulse in every small spot and major area of your body. This was done with LONG pauses after inhale and exhale. It is mainly during the long pause that you attempt to feel your pulse in a given body area. Basically we worked from head/neck/chest/heart/stomach/groin/ on downward.

After this intensive lying down work (must have been over 30 mins of only lying down work as above, (all inhale/exhale during it all was at MR's commands (Douuu... Vriiii... ) - "if I'm not talking, you aren't breathing"), we then sat up in seiza-like kneeling position and MR had us stretch out our arms, rotate and extend arms and hands and shoulders, trying to smooth out the energy kind of like squeezing it everywhere in your body. If you do as we did (above) you will feel tremendous rushes of hydraulic/electrical type energy throughout your body after this drill work (at least I did).

Then on to the "psychic calesthenics". First, since we had been lying down anyway, leg raises. On back, arms at sides, lift your left slowly, count of 40. At 20 your legs are vertical. SLLLOOOWWW count MR gave us. At 40, legs all the way back touching floor behind you. If tired during the raises, do "puff breathing" (a quick in-out cycle). Once your feet are behind you, stop moving legs. Now inhale-hold-exhale several times. Now inhale into chest (hold,exhale). Now inhale into stomach (hold, exhale). Now inhale into groin area (hold, exhale). Now slowly count while putting legs back down. 20 is vertical again. 40 is flat on floor. SLOW, if tired, do puff breathing.Then we did some 'fast' ones, just inhale (feet all the way back); exhale (feet all the way down).

Now pushups in similar mode. Do 10 with inhale on down stroke, exhale on push up. 10 with exhale on down stroke, inhale on push up. inhale/hold - do 10. exhale/hold - do 10. Also, slow as with leg raises above.

Now situps in similar mode. Start lying flat down as above. Raise yourself slowly on count using ONLY necessay muscles of mainly the back to support yourself, you'll end up slightly curled like a letter 'c'. Then back down.

Now squats. KEEP YOUR BACK AND FORM STRAIGHT. Do 10 with inhale, 10 with exhale, 10 with in-hold, 10 with out-hold as above. Then some slow inchworm ones as with counted leg raises and counted pushups described above.

Now jumping squat. jump all the way up clap hands, then quick back to squat. We did 20 of these in a quick exhausting sequence (actually more like thirty cause he made us redo many times when we weren't clapping "as a unit"!)

Now walking in a circle. Start with one-step/one-breath (in or out), then 2-steps per breath, etc. We did up to 6. Then, wind back down, 5 steps per breath, 4,3,2, back to 1. Then do the same with running instead of walking no matter how long you do this, when you stop your breathing should be totally normal. This works perfectly for me, even though I'm not a runner at all.

But my breath is completely normal after this no matter how long or fast I run, as long as I'm following the breath patterns indicated. One tip I got from Russia trip where we did this - there's NO NEED to do gung-ho "arm pump" thing while you run! All us North Americans (at least) seemed to be running with our arms crooked and hunched, pumping furiously. In Russia, one of the senior students saw me doing this and corrected me to run with arms hanging loosely at sides, gently swing, relaxed. Gives much more energy for a long run, of which we had several over there on & around the Spets base.

We also did circle rolling walk walk walk, when MR claps everybody quick do a forward roll, quick back up keep walk walk walk - clap - roll, get up, etc. Likewise for back roll.

======= Partner Mode ==========

We had an unbelievably cool class working on psy energy with partners. This was really "beyond the physical"! It was a smallish group, not the main seminar day(s). MR intro'd the session with a profound talk about what it means to work with another person. You have to get your mind in the right state, that you don't want to hurt the partner at all, and you care about the partner, almost like a parent towards a child. He used a great phrase he said if you want to hurt the partner, or show off your skill or anything proud like that then this is ruining the great gift of energy and life "like throwing a spoonful of dirt into a barrel of honey"! Cool huh ? Your mind should be calm and clear.

MR then demonstrated various ways of using psy energy to deal with people or an attack. He showed there's a lot of variation in how the energy is used, not just one effect. For example, when the attacker rushed MR, MR could "drain away" the person's energy into the ground, leaving attacker unable to continue.

Another "mode" or type is to "rebuff" the person's energy with your own, creating an effect of the attacker feeling he is being "bounced off" a large huge rubber ball, getting thrown back with just as much energy as he (attacker) has put out himself. Another mode is where MR just "turned into water or smoke" as the attacker simply could not "find anybody there". Another mode is where MR appeared to somehow mentally "take control" of the attacker's brain-body connections and switch his nerve processing such that the attacker would fall in a particular direction or in a particular posture. (this was weird!) He showed many other distinct effect, I guess to impress on us the variety of work required. I just can't cover everything right here. OK, then he told us that he not teaching for money, there is no personal element in this ability, it comes from God, and with work all of us could approach it if we have a good spirit and work hard. He said he was glad that our little group there really wanted to learn and not just to "see tricks". He said if we just wanted to see tricks he could just put us all to sleep for three hours (the entire class) and we'd wake up happy.

NOW HERE IS SOMETHING IMPORTANT - he then said that for rest of the session (remaining two hours or so of actual practice) we'd be trying the methods with our partner's and he said "OK now work. I have switched you on." And he suddenly snapped his fingers. Remember this part! Then he showed how to begin practice. You work similar to Vlad's PE tape to start.

Work with partner stand quietly and nicely in front of each other, P1 puts his hands just above P2's shoulders. P2 should be attentive and sensitive, don't resist but don't fall if you don't feel anything. YES! We felt VERY strong non-physical force current directing us down in this work. It was SO obvious you'd just have to be a complete fool to doubt the reality of this. Of course I've seen this before and have tried it myself with friends. Yes sometimes with friends on your own you can get an effect. But in this session the force and consistency of it in the partner work went WAY beyondanything I had ever experience practicing on my own. Way beyond. We tried psy "pushing" from behind different angles, etc. and finally did somewhat faster work countering an actuall normal/slow speed "attack" with a real-time take-down, trying to "catch" the energy envelope of the "attacker".

We finished with putting our partner to sleep with gentle energy "pats" and strokes, like a parent putting kid to sleep. At the end we asked MR "many of us have tried this before, with no success or just weak effects. Why was the energy flow and power SO OBVIOUS to all of us this time ??" MR said he had "switched us on" (remember above?) and that he had been controlling us throughout the session, so we got a different result from normal. He said it would still take a lot of work and training for us to be able to do this for ourselves, for real, but that if we work hard on all the drills (see above) and keep a good mind of decency and non-harmfulness, we can eventually succeed.

==== Blast Mode ! ======

The final way of getting energy that MR taught was getting hit (by him). People lined up to get hit with fist (I did not do the fist this time, but I've done that before, I know the score... But see below for what I did this time!) While getting hit, the idea is exhale with a kind of shallow or superficiall puff exhale, just immediately prior to getting hit (not too early). Keep your form. Don't feel sorry for yourself. Don't "let it in".

Another mode of getting hit was shown, MR hit people with a long stick or staff. Not everybody did this. I did this out of curiosity. He hits you in abdomen, legs, butt, back. It hurts like a @#$)(*%#)(*%! I was surprised how much it hurt. Same principles as above for taking it. In Russia he also does a Cossack whip for this training. Anyway, whether stick or fist he senses exactly how much you can take and puts your exactly on that line, not one inch above or below it.

The energy part of this getting hit training is that afterwards your entire body, especially abdomen and hands will be vibrating wildly like a radioactive beehive for about 15 minutes or more. Just an amazing unbelievable effect. Not everybody feels this depends on how much prior energy training you have done.

Eta dastadichna for now. -Emery

[Ruairi Quinn]

Originally posted by kenjgood

Citing sources in the FBI as being interested proves nothing one way of the other and adds a false credibility to the argument presented.

I just finished a fantastic Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev of SYSTEMA or the System. His teacher Mikhail Ryabko a Spetsnaz operative and unbelievable martial artist was asked if one should mediate to learn to harness, direct and use the natural energy of the human body. His answer was an empathic NO. Reason given: it leads to darkness, as in spiritual darkness. I am going to extrapolate and apply this same type of reasoning to the altered state of mind that occurs during hypnosis. The Russians have EXTENSIVE experience in these matters.

On the one hand you're telling Darren not to use other sources to add false credibility, but you're resorting to this yourself by simply stating that 'The Russians have EXTENSIVE experience in these matters' and that everyone should take heed. Show me a good reason why we should give extra weight to the opinions of these guys as opposed to professionals working in this field.

I think people should do their own leg-work and decide for themselves rather than putting all their trust into someone else's work. It's like the Enlightenment never happened these days.

To me the notion that meditation leads to 'spiritual darkness' is a little too close to the mindless rubbish posted on the internet by rabid christian fundamentalists who think anything eastern is 'demonic'.

[Bambi]

Oddly enough about a year ago an instructor that I know with a background in psychiatry was talking to our group when this subject came up , he was less than enthusiastic about NLP and felt it had as many possible dangers as benefits, especially for martial arts training.

[Darren Laur]

Kit:

Now I see the reason for your e-mail to me. Again, I have never studied Systema, but what you posted has all the precursors of hypnosis ( hyper-suggestibility). Systema can call it “Psychic Energy Exercises”, but a rose by any other name is still a rose. Hypnosis by any other name is still hypnosis.

From what you posted on this Forum, I have this to offer about what I have read. Again remember, I have never trained in Systema, so therefore I am basing my comments on the individual who took a Systema course and wrote an article on such, which was posted here by Kit.

“SOLO MODE”

From what was described by the participant of this course, the “solo mode” is nothing more that what is known as a “Progressive Relaxation” (PR) in hypnotherapy terminology.

This technique involves placing a subject into a comfortable position, either lying down or sitting, Next, you have the person with either eyes open (with a point fixation), or closed, start an “autogenic” breathing cycle. In through the nose for a three count, hold for one, out through mouth for a three count. This begins the “centering “ process, which is needed for an “induction” into a state of hyper-suggestibility (hypnosis).

One of the many methods used in a PR, is the tensing and relaxing of specific muscle groups. This is usually done from a head to toe, or toe to head rhythm. When I use this specific technique, I call it a “wave of comfort and calmness”. If done properly, this technique will feel like a wave flowing across the body. To increase focus, which aids in an induction, I too have both seen and used the technique of locating a pulse in a variety of different body locations. When a PR and autogenic breathing are used together, for an extended period of time, it can be used as an “induction” to place one into a state of hyper-suggestibility (hypnosis). It is my belief, based upon what I have read in this thread, that this is exactly what happened. This process is very easy for me to replicate time and time again.


“PSYCHIC CALESTHETICS”

This can easily be replicated through hypnosis, but the question that I have is; WHY ? Why would anyone want to place a person into a hypnotic state, and have him or her do calisthenics that could lead to injury due to over exertion. Very dangerous in my opinion.



“PARTNER MODE”


Quote from article:

“We had an unbelievable cool class working on psy energy with partners. This was really beyond the physical. It was a smallish group, not the main seminar day(s). MR intor’d the session with a profound talk about what it means to work with another person. You may have to get your mind in the RIGHT STATE…….”

That “right state” in my opinion, is the hypnotic state needed to conduct such training.


Quote from article:

“MR then demonstrated various ways of using psy energy to deal with people or an attack. He showed there’s a lot of variation in how the energy is used, not just one effect. For example, when the attacker rushed MR, MR could “drain away” the person’s energy into the ground, leaving attacker unable to continue”

This is similar to what I saw in the MOONEY video that I dissected earlier in this thread. I too can replicate this time and time again. In fact, during a stage show last year, I planted a post hypnotic suggestion on one of my participants that as he got closer to me, his feet would become increasingly tougher to move and would in fact become cemented to the ground. Guess what, he couldn’t continue. If this technique is so effective, why aren’t police officers taught to use this “amazing” technique on subjects who are out of control? Reason, it only works on those who are “willing” and “compliant” and more importantly are in a state of hypnosis or who have been given a post hypnotic suggestion.


Quote from article:


“Another mode or type is to rebuff the person’s energy with your own, creating an effect of the attacker feeling he is being “bounced off” a large huge rubber ball, getting thrown back with just as much energy as he (attacker) has put out himself.”


This is known as the “protective bubble” in hypnotherapy terminology. Stage hypnotists use it as well. I have also used this one. The suggestion is made that I am covered in a 360 degree protective bubble that extends three feet in all directions around me. As you run towards me and hit the bubble, you WILL bounce off. No matter how hard you TRY to penetrate the bubble, you will just bounce off. In fact, the harder you try to penetrate the bubble, the farther away you will bounce. When done in a stage show, this garners a lot of laughs. In hypnotherapy, it can be used to decrease one’s vulnerability to infection including some forms of cancer.


Quote from article:

“ Another mode is where MR just turned into water or smoke” as the attacker simply could not find anybody there.”


Again, easily replicated. A colleague of mine, who is a stage hypnotist, uses this “suggestion” in his stage show all the time.


Quote from article:

“He said he was gals that our little group there really wanted to learn and not just to “see tricks”. He said if we just wanted to see tricks he could just put us all to sleep for three hours (the entire class) and we’d wake up happy”


I have no doubt about the fact that MR could put everyone into a hypnotic deep sleep. What really disturbs me however, is that it does appear that he is using the art and science of hypnosis as a “trick” or “gimic” saying that these “psy” powers in his words “come from God.”, to push an agenda.

What I have read in this article, posted by KIT, is hyper-suggestibility (hypnosis) plain and simple. It frustrates me to the tenth degree as a professional certified hypnotherapist, to see that these “stage tricks” are being taught to others, who are not educated or knowledgeable in this subject matter, as a form of self-protection. What I shared in my first post of this thread, has nothing to do with what these charlatans are pushing. What I shared is based upon years of experience by professional sport psychologists in the area of Sports Science and “motor Skill” enhancement. I hope that others who are reading this post can now understand why my first post “ HYPNOSIS, NLP, and the Combative Edge” is seen by some, maybe even many, to be a joke. Why, because those who use the art and science of hypnosis as parlor tricks, make it difficult for other like myself to promote its benefits when used in a “professional” manner. This is why I spend so much time on this specific topic educating those in the combatives field about the benefits of guided imagery (hypnosis) while at the same time de-bunking what others in the field are selling as the “NEW” system of self defence



LAST COMMENT:


I am sure that MR (who ever he is) is very skilled in the area of physical combatives, in fact , I do not question those specific abilities. What I do question however, is the “Psychic Energy Exercises” that he appears to push, and the context in which they are used.



KNOWLEDGE AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF THAT KNOWLEDGE IS POWER !!!!!!!!!!




Strength and Honor

Darren Laur
Integrated Street Combatives

[Kit LeBlanc]

Thanks Darren for your assessment.

Let me say I am NOT trying to set anyone against each other, nor disparage Systema, which I have no direct experience with, and that Ken Good and James Williams, people I have a lot of respect for, are impressed with.

What I DID notice was a similarity in certain respects to Darren's assessment, from the perspective of a certified hypnotist (hypnotherapist? ) of certain elements of the Mooney clips that circulated in Bad Budo not too long ago. I e-mailed Darren privately asking his perspective, which he alludes to in his post.

I felt that considering the gist of the topic on this thread I would post the article again, and hear the pros and cons.

Kit

[kenjgood]

Darren,

Thanks for your level headedness in this thread.

Like I said before: My initial reaction is gut level and does not reflect a clear understanding of the training methodologies you are advocating. I just like to fight and argue anyway!!! I will keep my mind open and attempt to evaluate from the most objective viewpoint possible (if that is possible). If I find what I believe is a hole, lets go to the mat and vise versa.

As another posted stated: I used the Russians to back up my point, and that probably was not a solid counterpoint, so I withdraw that line of reasoning.

As far as SYSTEMA, I have only been recently exposed to this form of martial art used by the Spetznaz. I will say without any hesitation it is not a collection of party tricks. It is EXTREMELY well thought out and eminently practical. I do believe they are utilizing the body’s natural construct to benefit them in combat and destroy opponents as required. It aint mass or individual hypnosis if that is the premise being put forth.

From what I can tell they view the “body” as not constrained within the physical structure. During the wide variety of demonstrations put forth by Vladimir this last weekend, I can clearly see (and experienced) his point. I do not have the vocabulary breadth of understanding to articulate what he was legitimately doing on demand to all types of folks with all types of backgrounds and skill levels.

I have a few of Vladimir Vasiliev's tapes; one of them entitled "Psychic Energy". For the most part, there was nothing on the tape psychic, as we westerners would use the term. I will also say that some of the things they are calling psychic energy appear to be misdirections, leading and natural autonomic responses to movement and carefully directed stimulus. I could be wrong. See: http://russianmartialarts.com

There are clear and strong parallels between real AikiJujutsu and Systema in terms of utilizing the breath, balance, relaxation, circumnavigating force, distancing and timing, etc. When I first saw an effective AikiJujutsu practioner I threw up the !!!!!!!! flag. Got out there and soon learned otherwise.

A slight right turn here:
Most have heard the phrase; I felt the weight of your stare. I am convinced we emit well beyond our physical structure, and most can recall times that this has become evident. When I stalk as a sniper, move closer to people on their six, I attempt to constrain myself, within myself to reduce my signature. May sound hooky, but I have surprised many a person who attempted to move in on my six, locating them well before my vision was there…. I could give numerous, numerous examples. Anyway, is this where I insert the Twilight Zone MP3 soundtrack?

Kit: You can pack sand....just kidding...

If you read this post backwards, you will be mentally transported to Russia to engage in a hypnosis/NLP seminar….so do so at your own risk.

Looking forward to learning more from you all.

[Darren Laur]

Ken:


I attempt, in all my posts, to keep a level head even when some read things into what I write that are not there. These posts should be used as a tool for sharing and learning rather than name-calling, rivalry feuds, and in some cases pure slander. I truly believe that there is no such thing as the ultimate fighting form or system. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. The secret is to identify those weaknesses and go elsewhere to strengthen them. Internet dialogue on combatives is healthy, if kept professional. It’s okay to agree to disagree, if this wasn’t so, could you imagine the type of world that we would live in with everyone bobbing their heads in agreement without question. I too have a very open mind, but I’m not afraid to call a spade a shovel, based upon knowledge, training and experience. As I have said many a time, “ knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power.”


Again, don’t take my post in the wrong way. I was not questioning the physical combative techniques of Systema, but rather what they call the “psychic” side. Not having participated in a Systema training seminar, or seeing a video, I cannot comment on its physical combative attributes. Having said this, knowing your background, and the organization you represent, I do respect your feedback when you say; “ I will say without hesitation it is not a collection of party tricks. It is extremely well thought out and eminently practical.” What I do question however, is the information from the article that Kit posted. As you can appreciate, for those who do not have a background in hypnosis and NLP, what Systema teaches as “psychic” could be easily be seen by many in the martial and combative fields, to be mystical and psychic in nature. What needs to be understood however, is that there is a scientific reason for what they are doing, that can be replicated time and time again by people such as myself, who have never trained in Systema or any other system./ style that teach this stuff. What they are doing is not “divine” intervention that takes years to master. Hyper-suggestibility (hypnosis) is real, and can be utilized very effectively on someone who is ‘COMPLIANT” and “WILLING” for the suggestion to become their reality. What really concerns me (read piss me off here), are those people who are teaching this stuff to be used in a “physical combative context” for self-protection. This WILL get people hurt or even killed !!!!!! That’s why I believe that these things need to be discussed in forums such as this. Again remember, knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power !!!!!!!


I, like you, believe in “Force Presence” which is not something that is really physical in nature. It’s my theory that “Force Presence” is a synergy of the whole mind, body, and Spirit concept, which is only now really being understood by us scientific westerners. You said;” When I stalk as a sniper, move closer to people on their six, I attempt to constrain myself, within myself to reduce me signature. May sound Hookey, but I have surprised many a person who attempted to move in on my six, locating them well before my vision was there…..” What you said was NOT hookey, I, like you and many others who do what we do, have experienced the same thing. About six years ago I had the opportunity to meet and discuss this issue with a WW2 PPCLI Army vet who stated that he was taught to think the color “ black” due to its ability to mask one’s signature in battle. He said it worked for him, couldn’t explain why, but it did. Just recently I read an article on “aura’ research. (I will attempt to locate and site the research when I can find it again) In this study, the researches had their human test subjects think and internalize a variety of different colors. These researchers then used a specific type of photography (the name escapes me right now) that captures the electrical/ aura field that is emitted around a person or any other living thing. This research found that when a person internalized the word “BLACK” the aura/electrical field surrounding a person was almost non-existent. ( maybe a scientific reason for why thinking black worked for the WW2 vet and for what you are experiencing as well) It is my belief that it is our sixth sense, which picks up on these fields at the sub-conscious level. I don’t think this is “ Twilight Zone” stuff, but rather something that needs to be looked into further from a scientific standpoint. If it works, it works. If something works for you, use it. The only caveat to this, is to understand the combative context in which it is going to be used, and the consequences of its results in the real world. Take on the attitude, “ Don’t tell me. Show me.” Acid test everything, in a realistic training environment, before going operational with it.


Again Ken, thanks for your input, it was insightful, thought provoking, and more importantly PROFESSIONAL.



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur
Integrated Street Combatives

[Kit LeBlanc]

Ken,

You clearly try to practice what you preach in the different tactical articles you have written.

I feel that I should also comment here on the whole "psychic energy," "kiai-jutsu" "aiki" stuff.

As Ken and Darren both mention "masking" their intentions through mental discipline when approaching from someone's six, developing input from mental stimuli beyond visual and auditory and just "picking up" that someone is there, transfixing someone with a gaze, etc. I want to say that I do believe this stuff exists, I have experienced some of it myself. I do believe that it can be cultivated through proper training.

I spent eight years training in Chinese methods designed around such physical and mental methods (meditation, but in a very different way...is was more like "physical meditation" that placed different kinds of stress on the mind and body, and had nothing to do with the micro or macrocosmic orbits or visualizing Buddhist demon slayers, etc.) I also trained for several years in a koryu method with a teacher that is a psychologist and who placed a lot of emphasis on developing kiai....that had nothing to do with shouting. I barely scratched the surface with him, but have continued researching elements of the esoteric aspects of classical Japanese martial arts specifically for how it might help me develop things "beyond the physical." (insert eerie Japanese flute music here...)

I think there very much is something to this. But I also believe that many martial artists give themselves and their training FAR too much credit in this area, believing they are privy to "secrets" and near supernatural abilities that will not work outside of a dojo. Or they want it really bad and create the conditions that they are seeking through suggestibility and parlor tricks, none of which will work in combative conditions. Many martial artists also confuse training exercises meant to stimulate the student's understanding of these things through experiments with it in "laboratory conditions" with methods that will be effective in reality against an unknown and uncooperative person. A typical example is the recognition of sakki in the dojo and the commentary on the excessive danger of koryu training with wooden weapons....people in the dojo are not trying to hurt or kill you, so there is no sakki there. There is a simulation of it, and I think because of the weapons that the danger of being hurt by a mistake is greater and therefore there is a different kind of stress, but the real thing is qualitatively different than training. Since you have both trained in Simmunition F/X force on force scenarios, you know it is very stressful, and is a better simulation in many ways of the stress of combat and thus a stress inoculation (another important aspect of kiai if you ask me) but it is still training, not reality.

It has been my experience that the reality of a lot of the elements of kiai or psychic energy and mental-physical organization is far more mundane and accessible than they are mystical if one has an open mind, yet still does not completely suspend their critical faculties and places the exercises in the proper context.

[James Williams]

Darren,

Where in Canada do you reside? It is my experience that interesting discussions like this are best done in person where theory can be tested in practical application. This mehtodology has worked well for me and makes it easier to either understand what someone is doing and how they are doing it, or listen to an explantion as to why it does not work this time or on this person. Perhaps Mr. Good and Mr. LeBlanc could join us and we can all share.

Regards,

[Darren Laur]

Victoria, BC, Canada. Another option is to contact a respected "Certified Hypnotherapist" at your location. If there is a university that has a sport psychology department near by, they could be a good resource as well. I also know that my colleague with the Calgary Police Department ( Sgt Brian Willis), who does what I do, is working with a group in Florida who are both designing a program on Guided Imagery, specific to law enforcement.


Darren

[James Williams]

Darren,

Victoria makes it easy. Ken Good and I can come up and Kit can make it from Seattle. I would personally like to see these concepts in person and have a chance to work with/against them to ascertain their validity. I will have some basis for comparison as I have personally trained with Mikhail Ryabko, Don Angier, Kuroda Tetsuzan, and Okamoto Seigo. April would be a good month as I will be in Portland. Please give me a call in this regard.

James
760 753-2060

[Kit LeBlanc]

James,

Are you coming up for Don's seminar? Outstanding!!

I am up for a road trip to B.C as well.... I am off the entire week after Don's seminar.

Kit

[Darren Laur]

James:


I sent you an e-mail I hope you got it, but if you didn’t, here’s what I asked; is the reason for the meeting to share how I use the art and science of hypnosis/NLP to enhance motor skill performance at my school ?, or is it to further discuss the controversy surrounding “psychic” abilities (hyper-suggestibility) in a combative context ?

When you said’ “I would personally like to see these concepts in person and have a chance to work with/against them to ascertain their validity.” concerns me due to the fact that I DO NOT teach or use hypnosis in the way that MOONEY or others purport to do. I am a trained and certified hypnotherapist who also received training in the area of stage hypnotism (master hypnotist certification). I have done stage hypnotism in the past, but no longer practice this art form (notice I use the word art form when it comes to stage hypnotism), due to its “entertainment” value; it has no other useful context, especially when it comes to combatives and street survival.

Hypnotherapy and guided visualization is the science, which I use presently to enhance motor skill performance. I am John G. Kappas (Ph.D) trained, and use his style of guided imagery to accomplish this goal. This is what my first posting on this topic was all about.

I would refer you to a book entitled “ Self-hypnosis The Key To Athletic Success, A Revolutionary New Method For Achieving Your Greatest Potential Whether You Are A Beginner, A Skilled Amateur, or a Professional Athlete” by John Kappas ISBN 0-13-803313-7. This book is the template from which I train.

Please read this book, and if this is what you want to meet and discuss, I’m there. But if you are looking for me to place you or others into a state of hypnosis to create a “protective bubble” or to make one disappear like smoke, I respectfully must decline. These are techniques that will only work with a “compliant” and “willing” person in a closed environment of the stage, or a training studio. To attempt to use them in the reality of the street WILL get one seriously hurt or even killed.


Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

[Neil Hawkins]

Oisin, I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on any of the negative aspects to NLP from your instructor? I have not heard of any before, and was under the impression that NLP was widely regarded as the ultimate method of instruction?

I can't claim to be an expert, however (and please Darren correct me if I'm wrong) to me NLP is merely a way of firstly observing how the student learns, and then applying the observations into an instructional method that suits the individual. There are many books and websites on NLP and, as Darren stated, one of the areas most suited to NLP are physical skills such as athletics or martial arts.

One of the tools that sport psychologists use is visualisation, to me this is essentially a method of self hypnosis, see yourself running a 9.8 second 100m and you are well on the way to actually doing it. Of course you need all the physical skills and a fair amount of natural talent, but visualisation can help circumvent mental or emotional blocks. This has to be treated carefully in the MA because if people have beliefs beyond their abilities, they are in danger of serious injury should they be attacked.

I'd like to hear more from Darren on how he utilises NLP in his teaching, this may help the others understand the benefits of this type of learning. I think that Ken probably utilises NLP in his teaching without realising it, the sting of simmunition hitting the body is an extremely effective method of learning! :)

Regards

Neil
__________________________
The one thing that must be learnt but cannot be taught is understanding.

[kenjgood]

http://www.lifefocuscenter.com/hypfaq.htm#whatis

http://www.devco.demon.co.uk/AtoZ.html

Darren do you concur with the following data/concepts provided on these websites?

I am getting that hypnosis and NLP are one in the same or inseparably linked.

I am also getting that NLP presupposes all people are essentially O.K, not broken, making “good” choices, every behavior has a “positive” intention, and that people cannot respond to reality only experience.

I am extremely interested in determining the foundation or principle base of any system in order to get a clear picture of who is "driving the train" and in what direction.

If what is presented on these sites and others like them accurately represents the underlying principle base, I would call into question a few of the fundamental underpinnings.

Taken from: http://www.lifefocuscenter.com/hypfaq.htm#whatis

What is a brief history of hypnosis?

The beginnings of hypnosis is lost in the mists of prehistory. Shamans and "witch doctors" and other religious leaders use trance and hypnotic phenomena. My guess is that the cave paintings were an aid to visualization and were used for religious rituals which induced trance. Diodorus of Sicily writes, "The ancient Egyptian priests threw each other into trances." The first recorded use of hypnosis is the sleep temples of Egypt about 3000 years ago. The high priests would enter these temples in their full regalia and chant sacred chants and put the patients to sleep and suggested they be cured. These types of temples were later introduced to the Greek and Roman worlds. It is thought that the magi of Babylonia and Persia practiced some rituals which gave them control over the mind and body of men. Hippocrates believed in somnambulistic powers.

Paracelsus the great physician of the middle ages believed in a theory of double magnetism wherein he believed that magnetic fluid of a healthy body attracts the weaker and deteriorated magnet of an unhealthy one. The idea of usage of magnets (real or animal) increased until the time Mesmer with whom modern hypnosis begins. At first he used magnets in the treatment of patients. Later he used his hands in the mistaken idea that his body had become magnetized. He managed to produce many cures and had a huge prosperous practice in Paris. However a royal commission discredited him and he returned to Vienna and continued a small practice.

Scientific hypnosis was introduced by James Braid, British surgeon who did much to divorce trance phenomenon from prevailing theories of animal magnetism. In 1841, when well established in a surgical practice at Manchester, Braid developed a keen interest in mesmerism, as hypnotism was then called. Proceeding with experiments, he rejected the popular notion that the ability to induce hypnosis is connected with the magical passage of a fluid or other influence from the operator to the patient. In stead, he adopted a physiological view that hypnosis is a kind of nervous sleep, induced by fatigue resulting from the intense concentration necessary for staring fixedly at a bright, inanimate object. Braid introduced the term "hypnosis" (from Hypnos the Greek God of sleep) in his book Neurypnology (1843). Interestingly he later realized that hypnosis is different from sleep and tried to change the term to mono-ideaism, but thankfully (for us) the term hypnosis had stuck. He was mainly interested in the therapeutic possibilities of hypnosis and reported successful treatment of diseased states such as paralysis, rheumatism, and aphasia. He hoped that hypnosis could be used to cure various seemingly incurable "nervous" diseases and also to alleviate the pain and anxiety of patients in surgery.

Following Braid’s pioneering work, Dr. Esdaile performed many operations in Calcutta, India with help of hypnosis as the anaesthesia. He managed to cut the death rate from more than 40% to less than 5%. However, when he returned to Britain he was blackballed by the church and other surgeons. Soon afterward, chemical anaesthesia was discovered and hypnosis went from medical practice to circuses and shows.

However, in the meanwhile, Bernheim and Liebeault form the Nancy school in France. They wrote that hypnosis involved no physical forces but was a combination of psychologically mediated responses to suggestions. At about the same time, the Austrian physician Sigmund Freud visited France and was impressed by the therapeutic potential of hypnosis for neurotic disorders. On his return to Vienna he used hypnosis (with the collaboration of Joseph Breuer as the hypnotist) to help neurotics recall disturbing events that they had apparently forgotten. However, Freud had badly fitting false teeth and could not speak well. Thus he was not a good hypnotist and soon when he stopped his collaboration with Breuer, Freud dropped hypnosis in favor of free association.

There were so many important contributors to our field in this century. I will name a few and a quote or discovery:

William W. Cook MD (1901): "Hypnotism is the most practical science of the age.... It does not require years of study to become a hypnotist for this great blessing to mankind is a natural endowment possessed by all...."

Emil Coué (1900s) : "Every day, in every way, I am getting better and better." "All hypnosis is self-hypnosis."

Clark Hull (1933 – wrote book: "Hypnosis and suggestibility"): "Anything that assumes trance causes trance."

George Estabrooks (1943): Very directive approach.

Leslie LeCron (1943): Ideomotor signals. Hypnotic depth.

Milton H. Erickson: Non-directive permissive approach – metaphors – telling stories. "Your patients will be your patients because their conscious minds are out of rapport with their unconscious minds." "I allow my patients to enter a trance in which ever way they desire." "When a client walks in I assume he brings in both his conscious and unconscious minds."

Dave Elman (1964): The Elman method.

Bandler and Grinder: NLP. "All communication is hypnosis.... I disagree, nothing is hypnosis; hypnosis doesn’t exist." "When we first started you could only practice hypnotherapy if you were an MD so we just gave it a new name NLP and did hypnosis."

Finally a most important date: 1958 – at last AMA accepts hypnosis as a useful tool within the tools available to medicine.


This is the html version of the file http://www.lambent.com/nlp/files/PresuppositionsOfNLP.pdf.
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Page 1
The Presuppositions of NLP
The thirteen presuppositions are the central principles central of NLP; they are its guiding philosophy, its `beliefs'. These principles are not claimed to be true or universal. You do not have to believe they are true. They are called presuppositions because you pre-suppose them to be true and then act as if they were. You then discover what happens. If you like the results then continue to act as if they are true. They form a set of ethical principles for life.

1.People respond to their experience, not to reality itself.
We do not know what reality is. Our senses, beliefs, and past experience give us a map of the world from which to operate. A map can never be exactly accurate; otherwise it would be the same as the ground it covers. We do not know the territory, so for us, the map is the territory. Some maps are better than others for finding your way around. We navigate life like a ship through a dangerous area of sea; as long as the map shows the main hazards, we will be fine. When maps are faulty and do not show the dangers, then we are in danger of running aground. NLP is the art of changing these maps, so we have greater freedom of action.

2.Having a choice is better than not having a choice.
Always try to have a map for yourself that gives you the widest and richest number of choices. Act always to increase choice. The more choices you have, the freer you are and the more influence you have.

3.People make the best choice they can at the time.
A person always makes the best choice they can, given their map of the world. The choice may be self-defeating, bizarre or evil, but for them, it seems the best way forward. Give them a better choice in their map of the world and they will take it. Even better give them a superior map with more choices in it.

4.People work perfectly.
No one is wrong or broken. They are carrying out their strategies perfectly, but the strategies may be poorly designed and ineffective. Find out how you and others do what they do so their strategy can be changed to something more useful and desirable.

5.All actions have a purpose.
Our actions are not random; we are always trying to achieve something, although we may not be aware of what that is.

6.Every behaviour has a positive intention.
All our actions have at least one purpose - to achieve something that we value and benefits us. NLP separates the intention or purpose behind an action from the action itself. A person is not their behaviour. When a person has a better choice of behaviour that also achieves their positive intention, they will take it.

7.The unconscious mind balances the conscious; it is not malicious. The unconscious is everything that is not in consciousness at the present moment. It contains all the resources we need to live in balance.

8.The meaning of the communication is not simply what you intend, but also the response you get. This response may be different to the one you wanted. There are no failures in communication, only responses and feedback. If you are not getting the result you want, change what you are doing. Take responsibility for the communication.

9.We already have all the resources we need, or we can create them. There are no unresourceful people, only unresourceful states of mind.

10.Mind and body form a system. They are different expressions of the one person. Mind and body interact and mutually influence each other. It is not possible to make a change in one without the other being affected. When we think differently, our bodies change. When we act differently we change our thoughts and feelings.

11.We process all information through our senses.
Developing your sense so they become more acute gives you better information and helps you think more clearly.

12.Modeling successful performance leads to excellence.
If one person can do something it is possible to model it and teach it to others. In this way everyone can learn to get better results in their own way, you do not become a clone of the model - you learn from them

13.If you want to understand - Act
The learning is in the doing.

[Darren Laur]

Thanks for your posting once again, I’m glad to see that you are researching this topic. Although I agree with a lot of what you posted, there is some information that I do not agree with. I guess the best way to describe my beliefs is to share how I use NLP and Hypnosis.


What is NLP ?, My short definition is:

Neuro: Brain

Linguistic: Language

Programming: Behavior


NLP is often referred to as the “Software for the Brain”, NLP is a model for being able to duplicate human excellence and learn new behavior at an accelerated pace (primarily through communication). NLP is first and foremost an attitude, an attitude of curiosity and methodology. In my opinion, NLP is a method for “Modeling” excellence. There are two major areas that NLP is famous for:


· Advanced strategies for communication/influence (this is what I do)
· Fast and effective models for creating behavioral change

What NLP really is, is a completely unique synthesis of cybernetics, neurology, and linguistics that offers a person practical methods for rapid personal improvement. Really, NLP is the science of using your brain, your language and your behavior to get what you want.


I guess the caveat here is to understand that there are many different schools of NLP, just as there a many different schools of psychology. Each has their own take on NLP. There is however cross pollination in all.


What I have taken form my NLP studies is that every brain has the same neurological wiring, but from the moment you are born, you and your environment begin to program it so that it is unique to you alone. There is no other brain in the world like yours. We take in information through our senses, and process this information in a way that is unique to each individual on the planet. In doing so, we create software programs that run on automatic until we learn a new program. Our brain relies on our senses to bring them information. We see, heart, touch, taste, and smell things in the world. Once we do this, these sensory experiences are turned into a picture, a sound, or a feeling on the inside of our minds. I call this the language of the subconscious.

NLP teaches that there are three basic ways that a person (read combative student) will learn. Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic. Although all three may overlap, one will be the “primary” language of the subconscious.


Characteristics Of Visual People:

Visuals understand what you say by what they see. They turns your words into pictures and images. Their minds work like view-masters or movie cameras and are happiest when you paint pictures for them. Visuals talk about seeing, how things appear, from a point of view.


Characteristics Of Auditory People:

Auditories are sound based people. They listen to how you say things. They get more information from how you say things that by what you show them. The paralinguistic cues (how you say what you say) are more important that your content. Their mind works like a jukebox or tape recorder. It plays back recordings to get an idea of what you are talking about.


Characteristics Of Kinesthetic People:

Kinesthetic people make decisions by how they feel rather than by what they see or hear. Their information comes predominantly from touch, feeling, emotions, gut instinct, hunches, and attitude more than what you say. They have a good kinesthetic memory and need to “feel it” before they trust you.





The language of the subconscious is very important for me to understand, because if I’m teaching a motor skill in a language that is not understood by my student(s) then learning is difficult or does not take place at all. This is where frustration can be seen in the student because in their words, “ they just aren’t getting it.” A good instructor will learn to listen to the student in order to pick up on their language of the subconscious. If a student is painting a picture using visual words, when speaking to that person, the instructor must paint them a picture as well. If the student is talking about how things sound or feel to them, the instructor should be speaking in similar terms. Thus, the listener receives the message that the instructor hears and understands them. This is a major step in increasing the degree of “rapport” and understanding between you the instructor and student. If you treat a visual student like a Kinesthetic, the visual student will have troubles understanding and therefore, frustration builds and learning is stunted. To the subconscious, you are speaking a language that it does not understand..


When teaching combatives in a group context, I always demonstrate the technique (communicate what I am doing) in ways to cover off all three communication styles; visual, auditory, kinesthetic for the above noted reasons. This is something that I have identified that many instructors do not do. Many instructors only teach in their own specific “sub-conscious“ language because that is how they learn and understand. These instructors do not know, because of lack of knowledge, that students “may” communicate/understand at a different level than their’s. Remember, not everyone learns/communicates the same way. When students break off to practice the skill, I will then adapt the “subconscious language” to meet their individual communication style. This is especially true if a student is having difficulty performing a specific motor skill, and needs help. This is how I primarily use NLP in combatives here at my school, or when I conduct seminars.



Other nuggets I use from NLP include:


Questions are more powerful than affirmations:

People who do affirmations are wasting their time because they are actually setting up internal conflicts that cause them to activate the opposite of what they want.. When people look into a mirror and say “ in every day and in every way, I am getting better and better”, a part of their mind comes back and says, “bull!” doesn’t it? It is just like if I told yu that you have a blue shirt on when you actually have a read one on ! I say “nice blue shirt” and you say, “it’s not blue, its red.” Then I say, :it’s blue”, and you say, “no it’s red”… we could go on like this forever…. which is exactly what happens for most people when they do affirmations.

Instead of engaging yourself in this confrontative struggle with yourself, you could begin to ask yourself questions instead. Questions will always get you an answer. Questions change what you are focused on. They get you to focus on either what is good about you, your environment or your behavior or what is bad. An affirmation in the form of a question is 300 to 400 times more effective and will literally train your brain to translate the affirmation into your behavior. Remember, the brain learns quickly to move in directions. Questions direct the mind. They divide experiences and lead our attention. Questions demand an answer. This is why I teach in a combative context to ask yourself the question, “am I threatened, or am I challenged” If you find yourself in a threatened mind set and stay there, you are in trouble, hypervigilance will set in. If on the other hand you get challenged, the training and the experience that you have can now deal with the threat at hand. By challenging the brain, even if you do not have the training or experience to deal with the situation at hand, the brain will begin to adapt, overcome, and improvise to get itself out of danger. (please see my posting on the use of FEAR for more details)


NLP also gave me an understanding semantics, and their deeper meaning:


· I never use the word “try” as an instructor. To the subconscious brain, try denoted “failure”. But how many times have you heard an instruct say, “just try it again.” Instead use “do it again”
· I never use the word “defender” ie attacker/defender. Defending denotes “defensive” mindset. I want “offensive” mind set in my students, so I always substitute defender with “fighter” ie Attacker/Fighter
· I never use wrong or right. ie “that is the wrong way to use that technique.” I always use desirable/less desirable. In the street, wrong will denote failure. Everything we do in combatives is desirable. Some techniques are more desirable than others.


Again, there are a number of differing schools when it comes to NLP. Each has their own take on what NLP can do, and where it can be used. I am only using NLP as an aid to increase motor skill performance through communication/understanding be it visual, auditory, or kinesthetic.


Yes, NLP and hypnotherapy have some commonality, but I do use them quite differently. I use hypnosis for the purpose of:


· Dropping a specific motor skill directly into the subconscious mind, thus decreasing the amount of time needed to learn the motor skill with repetition alone
· Anchoring specific stimulus/response techniques at the subconscious level
· Teaching guided imagery (visualization) using a three step process:

1. Visualize or imagine the accomplished goal or outcome
2. Make a movie of how you achieved this goal
3. Build a contingency plan (plan “B” abort technique should plan “A” fail)

In guided imagery ordinarily, the third step is what people do to program their mind for failure because they imagine everything going wrong, but not what they did to overcome it. Using this method of visualization, you program your mind for how to overcome adversity along the way if you encounter it. When you learn how to run your brain then a world of endless possibility and opportunity becomes available. This is especially important in combatives.



I hope this answers some of your questions. Again, I enjoy the productive dialogue that is taking place in this thread.

KNOWLEDGE AND THE UNDERSTANDING OF THAT KNOWLEDGE IS POWER


Strength and Honor

Darren Laur
Integrated Street Combatives

[Bambi]

"Oisin, I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on any of the negative aspects to NLP from your instructor?"

Sorry Neil, I don't remember. It was post seminar conversation in the pub and I had "homered out" of the discussion (i.e nodding my head in agreement while watching mental cartoons :) ). The only reason the comment stuck in my head was because I was studying full time back then and had heard a lot about NLP from various tutors.

Next time he's over I'll ask about it for you..I'll even try remember the answer too :)

[Kit LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Bambi
It was post seminar conversation in the pub and I had "homered out" of the discussion (i.e nodding my head in agreement while watching mental cartoons :) [/B]

LOL...

Are you sure you weren't hypnotized?

:D

[Bambi]

You've no idea how right you could be Kit. :)

could explain the missing kidney too :D

[Tom Douglas]

Check out www.k-sys.org. They are the American branch of the "Kadochnikov" system of the "Russian Martial Art" increasingly popular here in the U.S. (Kadochnikov taught Gen. Retskuniyih, the head of the Russian martial art school being vigorously marketed in North America by Scott Sonnon of www.ameross.com).

The Kadochnikov system apparently makes use of NLP-type training in Russia. Here in the U.S., they've affiliated with the "Silva Mind Control" folks to integrate NLP concepts into their martial training.

As far as Ryabkho's put-down of meditation, it may be that he doesn't understand the concept of meditation as a practice in itself, separate from an accompanying religiomystical paradigm (like Christianity).

Ryabkho devoutly espouses the Russian Orthodox faith, consonant with the general revival of that conservative, ethnocentric religion in his homeland. It fits in nicely with the constant marketing theme of the "ancient" martial wisdom of the Slavic peoples. We see similar claims to ancient wisdom in Japanese budo, Korean claims to have developed taekwondo without any influence from the karate-do of the hated Japanese, and the Chinese "internal" martial arts.

For an interesting read on the 20th-century origins of the "Russian" martial art, I suggest going to http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/sambo.html

The Soviets' 20th-century synthesis of key concepts and techniques from a number of different martial arts, including their own, with modern research into biomechanics and sports physiology, makes it less surprising to encounter NLP-type training in this "ancient" Russian martial art.

[James Williams]

Tom,

Have you ever trained with Mikhail Ryabko? Reading a few articles on the internet hardly makes one an expert on the origins of Systema. There is by the way virtually no relationship in technique or operating system between Sambo, and I have trained with Oleg Taktarov, and Systema, and I have trained with Mikhail Ryabko. The roots of Systema are old, Sambo is a modern compilation.

When you can do what Mikahil Ryabko can do then perhaps you can elighten us as to how he percieves the world and some of the relationships that he engenders by his personal knowledge and philosophy.

Systema will continue to gain popularity because of it's subltety, fluidity and function. We are fortunate that a man like Mikhail Ryabko, who has extensive real world experience over a long span of time in actually applying a military art for it's intended purpose, is teaching outside of the military.

[Tom Douglas]

James,

With all due respect for Mikhail Ryabkho's martial skills, they don't make him a historian. Nor do his views on religion have anything to do with his martial skills. I found Lukashev's article to at least have been based on research and documentation (hard as that must have been to find in the former Soviet Union).

In any event, your statement to the effect that I need to be at Ryabkho's level of martial skill in order to comment on his assertions as to the origins of his art is incorrect. I don't have to believe in the Omoto religion or kami in order to pursue excellence in aikido, nor believe that Feng Zhiqiang's xingyiquan and qigong teacher Hu Yaozhen floated in the air while meditating (as Feng claims to have seen)in order to study Feng's Chen shi taijiquan and pursue martial excellence in that.

As someone remarked more concisely over in the aikido forum, one doesn't go see a lawyer to resolve a medical problem. I have no doubt the historical roots of Systema are ancient, and that some of them even extend back to more ancient Slavic (and other) ethnic martial arts practiced before the Soviet era. But the developers of the system also studied judo and Chinese martial arts in depth, as well as European hand-to-hand fighting methods. That is documented. And that's really all I'm saying.

[James Williams]

Tom,

The point is you don't know. You haven't trained with him and you haven't talked with him. You don't know how he thinks so what you offer is a opinion not based on experience. If you are an aikidoka and going to the Aiki Expo look me up I will be teaching there after all the web is so impersonal.

[Tom Douglas]

>>The point is you don't know. You haven't trained with him and you haven't talked with him. You don't know how he thinks so what you offer is a opinion not based on experience.<<

Actually, Mr. Williams, I do know that Mikhail Ryabko is not a historian. The history of the Russian martial art, whether told by Ryabko or Sonnon, is not documented in any credible sense before the beginning of the twentieth century. Beyond that, it remains an oral tradition, no more and no less a fable than the origins of ninjutus or taijiquan.

As far as how Ryabko views meditation, you're correct in stating that I have not trained with him. But what does that have to do with his opinion on meditation? You're also correct that I have not talked with him . . . but Ryabko has expressed his view of meditation (in relation to prayer) quite clearly, to people who have trained with him and whom I've spoken to. To that extent, what I offered was an opinion based on their experience, which is sufficient for me. One person said:

"Michael [Ryabko] said there are two sources of power for human beings, and two only. One above, one below. This is meant in traditional Christian terms.

Meditation is considered harmful by Michael. He said it leads to personal pride, and can cause sickness. It sometimes yields power, and this power comes from the dark side.

The best alternative, according to Michael, is prayer. That makes you realize that you cannot do anything on your own, you need the higher power of God. Several times when people expressed admiration and amazement at Michael's powers, he slightly admonished them saying 'Nothing personal' and "Everything comes from God.'

There are more details, but basically this is his key concept. He made these points several times during the key classes and informal chatting."

That, Mr. Williams, gives me some idea of how Ryabko thinks.

>>If you are an aikidoka and going to the Aiki Expo look me up I will be teaching there after all the web is so impersonal.<<

I will. Either at the Expo, or in San Diego.

Best wishes for a successful stint in Las Vegas.

['renso]

This thread was truly a great read! Keep it up :)

[jellyman]

from The Elite Forces Handbook of Unarmed Combat by Ron Shillingford

Russian Military Martial Arts (page 21) :

'The history of Russian/Soviet military martial arts is as fascinating as it is complex. Prior to the October Revolution of 1917, Russia had a multitude of regional and ethnic martial arts which are today collectively known as Russian Martial Art (RMA). From several millennia before the birth of Christ to roughly 6th century AD, RMA was a varied tribal practice amongst Slavic warrior communities, used in both internal and inter-tribe competitions and also in the reality of tribal warfare. The combat skills were passed from father to son, martial hereditary maintaining and also developing the corpus of techniques over the centuries. This was to be valuable, for from the 6th century AD, Russian tribes came more under attack form northern and western invaders, though the invader’s first hand accounts of this time indicate that their opponents were ferocious hand-to-hand fighters. From the 9th century, however, metallurgical advances were starting to affect the course of RMA development. Improved swords, spears and Armour led to the need for more decisive hand-to-hand techniques which could be used to tackle even armed opponents. Another, perhaps more profound influence on RMS, was the Mongol occupation of Russia initiated by Batu Khan in 1237, an occupation which remained until the 15th century.

Two centuries after the Mongol occupation, RNA went into something of a decline. The influence of less sophisticated martial traditions form the West and the eventual introduction of firearms meant a steady degrading of RMA authority and kills, though it remained as a persistent cultural presence throughout Russia into the twentieth century.

The revolution of 1917 signaled a major shift in the fortunes and direction of RMA in Russia. Following the establishment of the Bolshevik government, the communist regime set out to iron flat the Soviet Union’s variegated cultural traditions and create a homogenous socialist landscape. RMA was no exception to this policy, and in 1918 Lenin founded an organization under one Comrade Vorosilov to research Russian and foreign martial arts systems and create an integrated military combat form standardized throughout the USSR. Teams of investigators traveled throughout the Soviet Union, Mongolia, China, India, Japan, Africa and Europe and built up a massive profile of martial techniques and traditions. Once this was pooled back at Vorosilov’s HQ, 25 Russian unarmed combat styles were brought together with karate, judo, and other defensive forms into a tiered structure of martial art skills to be taught to the military.
The top tier was occupied by the Soviet Close Quarters Combat (CQC) programme. Taught only to Special Forces soldiers and Secret Police units, CQC was a highly secret selection of lethal unarmed techniques for assassination, combat killing and torture, techniques which kept close to the original teachings of RMA despite the Soviet attempts to deny this. Emphasis was placed on techniques such as strangulation and fatal strikes, these being thoroughly tested in the Russo-Japanese War and World War I. Below CQC was Soviet Police Subject and Crowd Control Tactics (CCT). CCT provided good restraint skills using locks, pressure point holds and compliance-generating kicks and strikes. Lastly, there was a general level of martial art instruction to be given to all Soviet army units, which was actually more geared to competitive sporting use than rigorous unarmed combat skills.

Thus the Soviet authorities assimilated RMA into their ideological structure while also preventing the total dissemination of lethal unarmed knowledge. The new forms were collectively gathered into a combat style known as Sambo, an acronym standing for Samozashcitya Bez Oruzhiya, meaning self-protection without weapons. Sambo generally fell into two categories: Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo, and almost all Russian military personnel would encounter its techniques in one form or another, though often without the lethality of training that Special Forces soldiers received. For there was another form of Sambo known as Combat Sambo Spetsnaz. This is essentially the repository of genuine RMA techniques, the Sambo reference in its title being meant to placate outside curiosity. Its techniques were taught in absolute secrecy, and it was often known simply as The System by those who practiced it. It is now the province if Russia’s elite Spetsnaz special forces units and of key personnel in Russian institutions such as the Ministry of Internal Affairs, Ministry of Defense, MVD special units, VDV Paratrooper and OMON units, certain Russian Marine squads and other specialists. Slowly, the techniques of Combat Sambo Spetsnaz are becoming known t the outside world. Yet while here are many in the West who claim themselves to be Sambo instructors, some being former Soviet army personnel, few outside Russia actually have knowledge of the full scope, potential and techniques of Sambo as derived from the ancient RMA. '

Note - Shillingford does not know vlad, or MR, and systema is russian for 'the system'

[jellyman]

MR, the ROC, and ethnocentrism:

MR has always been a staunch member of the ROC, even when it was dangerous to be so. The ROC is quite influential these days, just about every military compund has a chapel now. In no small part, they are the rallying point for many anti-communists.

Ethnocentric?

Vlad and MR teach a variety of ethnicities and faiths. i am no russian, in fact, I'm black, but both these gents have unstintingly shared their knowledge with me, not to mention countless other ethnicities and religions (eg jewish, muslim). While they may like some students more than others, this has more to do with your attitude than your ethnicity. I live close enough to Vlad to train with him weekly, and know this for myself. Yes, Rybko is religous, and sees meditation as inferior to prayer, but functionally i see little difference. I simply make allowances for his cultural background, and leave it at that. certainly he never tried to convert me.

[jellyman]

Lastly a word on PE.

Systema has a broad appeal, and much like the Roscharch inkblot test (in theory), what people see is partly a reflection of who they are. A good example is Kip and me. We both went to moscow together, we have bothe studied systema, yet we see it differently.

That article is Kims, and reflects what he perceived. Now, I know kim to be an intelligent person, but I think he would agree that in some respects, our views differ.

For example, i don't think PE can be cultivated separately from phsyical skill. I think it is a synergy of the ability to dominate your opponent physically through correct movement, and the ability to employ psychological manipulation. I have never been lead to believe otherwise. Hence MR's answer to the question 'what if the guy won't move?' - hit him in the face to get his attention. If you can't bEat him on the phsyical plane, forget the mental plane.

[Emery]

Greetings E-Budo Gentlemen, Hi James, Hi Jelly!

Well I'm the author of some of the Systema forum PE quotes used in several places in this thread, so even though I have absolutely nothing to say about the main topic here (use of NLP and/or hypnosis to download rote skills?), I wanted to provide a little context. Sorry for the thread drift.

(1) Words - Ki, Qi, Prana, bio-energy, "psychic" energy => all mean the same to me, they refer to the basic life energy described in (2) below. I have no knowledge of the phenomena that the word "psychic" normally implies in English (mind-reading, channeling, table-tipping, etc.) and I regard the use of the word "psychic" in Vlad's original tape title as a minor and understandable vocabulary mistake. No big deal right ? After all how good is our Russian ... My preferred term is "ki" (I speak fluent Mandarin and Japanese, thus I have a right to an opinion on vocabulary no ? )

(2) Energy - It should not be a big deal to accept. There is Kirlian photography and plenty of other evidence that the bodies of all livings things exist within a radiated shell of life force, possibly with an electrical component but not strictly electricity. Science will catch up. Acupuncture based on this theory is becoming main stream (insurance pays in some states!). No big deal needs to be made about this basic claim of existence.

(3) Martial arts - Yep this is the tricky part, this is why we are all assembled no ? Agreed, if it were so easy we could all go home. First, as my friend and classmate Jelly points out, these guys are perfectly willing and able to hit you if you don't want to go the easy way. The point being, the Systema is comprehensive. For people at our level, the ki work is mostly a sensitivity drill. After you train with Vlad and/or Michael for a while, you can feel people's energy emanations, that accompany their physical motions. No big deal, people in other systems can do this also. I just happen to like studying the Systema way. At my level, I cannot yet use this knowledge or perception (the energy emanation percept) with any kind of martial efficiency or in any offensive capacity. Well - that's why I'm a student. If I were a masteer of it I guess I wouldn't need to go to class anymore.

Now, the crucial thing is that my perception of the energy emanation, which accompanies physical movement, is far stronger with Vlad and Mikhail than with students or other instructors. I take this as personal/anecdotal evidence that they have somehow learned to strengthen their energy flow or concentrataion. Since they also teach a breath method that is intended to have this strengthening effect, the program hangs together very well - for me. Maybe not for everybody, that's fine. I would also mention here that Vladimir Vasiliev is (by a long country mile) the finest overall martial artist I have ever witnessed in many years of searching, but hey, to each his own.

In training, I roll, retreat, fold or fall, as part of my sensitivity work, in alignment with the energy emanation that I clearly feel from my two teachers. Sure I could be a dick and try to "stand like a man" and resist it - so what ? To paraphrase Jellyman, these teachers have more ways to break you up than any other martial artist I've known. That is not the point, though, to me.

As the great tai chi master Cheng Man-ching put it, rolling with the perceived energy is "investing in loss". If we did not go down easily, with some awareness and feeling (i.e. 'learning'), these great fighters could trivially hammer us down, break our bones, tear us up - they don't require our cooperation. But the training is done for our benefit, not theirs.

- Scott Emery Meredith

[jellyman]

Okay, I thought Kim was Emery. Damn, that's confusing. :laugh:

I don't know if I'd say psychic was a mistranslation. 'Psychic' doesn't neccessarily mean paranormal. It can mean 'of the psyche', ie mental. In a russian-english dictionary, it might be the best match for the russian word. The usage is uncommon in the west though. And let's not forget TRS.

[jellyman]

'(2) Energy - It should not be a big deal to accept. There is Kirlian photography and plenty of other evidence that the bodies of all livings things exist within a radiated shell of life force, possibly with an electrical component but not strictly electricity. Science will catch up. Acupuncture based on this theory is becoming main stream (insurance pays in some states!). No big deal needs to be made about this basic claim of existence. '

Now here is the difference - I see the energy as a metaphor for your body picking up tiny cues as to what the person will do next. For me, sensing the energy is about feeling the intent - although the word 'feel' is crude, since it ultimately involves all the senses. Since my interests are purely for combat knowledge and experience, it's as far as I've gone in terms of my thoughts on how it works. What's funny though, is that in terms of functionality, it's kind of moot. Emery thinking his way can still get to where he wants to go. The skills developed are the same.

[James Williams]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your posts, enlightening as always. By the way the Systema intro work shops that Kwan and Jacob and I did at the Aiki Expo went over very well. We will have to get more people involved next time.

Regards,

James

[Tom Douglas]

Thanks to all the Systema students for contributing to this thread. And I also apologize for thread drift, since this is getting well away from Darren Laur's initial post.

With respect to the history set forth in Ron Shillingford's book: no sources are given. Shillingford merely repeated the party line, much as I imagine Ryabko learned it. Mikhail Lukashev's article at least points to specific sources and documents. I would gladly change my mind if someone pointed to specific documents or sources showing martial arts practiced in the Russian Orthodox monasteries. Japanese bugei arts have source documents to bolster their oral traditions. The various systems of Russian Martial Art don't have anything predating the 20th century--at least, any sources that have been publicly revealed.

The dispute about history has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the Russian Martial Art in training and combat. Historical claims have much to do with the marketing of the art to date--that's all. The allusions to ethnocentrism have to do with the tailoring of history to support national pride . . . not to whether non-Russians would be taught the "real secrets" of Systema. Similar padding of history to support claims of ancient lineage can be found in "traditional" Chinese and Japanese martial arts. One difference is that the Chinese and Japanese arts often have authenticated source documents for their lineage and techniques. Another difference appears to be that "traditional" Chinese and Japanese arts have often excluded Western students from the higher levels of training on the basis of their ethnic origin, whereas Ryabko and Vasiliev appear to be very open in their teaching.

Thanks again to everyone for contributing.

[joe yang]

Quicker to learn, easier to retain, less work for staff, definately what management wants to hear. So cut to the chase, how long to bring the average officer up to speed, how much on-going re-enforcement to stay sharp? Ball park estimate?

[jellyman]

'The various systems of Russian Martial Art don't have anything predating the 20th century--at least, any sources that have been publicly revealed. '

When we were in Moscow, Emery and I spoke to our translator/tour guide, who also happened to be a PhD in Russian History in the U of Moscow. She alluded to a rather large old volume in Mikhail's possesion (he has many interesting things) entitled, in tranlation 'History of Cossack Fist Fighting.' Emery and I dream of getting the thing copied and translated, except this year, I am low on funds :(. Apparently it's a pre-revolutionary text. Now, the woman herself is quite independent-minded, and her knowledge of things Russian is frankly ecyclopaedic. Lord knows she enjoyed her freedom of speech, matter-of-factly recounting how many died in what purge, who made what blunder, what particular reality the various regimes had wished to impose, and the shortcomings of modern Russia. Her ties to Rybko are purely social, as head of a department in Moscow, she is quit secure in her livelihood, and has been through at least 2 regimes. In short, what I'm saying is she had no reason to lie. In fact, she seems, if anything, to be really obsessed with the truth, as you would expect from a historian. So when she casually mentioned this book, and how this was merely an amalgam of various slavic tribal fighting skills, I would tend to take her at face value. This was when Emery and I took her aside to ask on her professional opinion of an indigenous RMA. This is not an academic reference either by any stretch, obviously, but it is a source of some assurance to me. Of course, even if whe get this book translated, people will say that wouldn't be proof. In russia, can anything be considered to be proof? As for the party line, don't forget that Vasiliev and Rybko learned systema in spetsnaz under communism, and the communist party line, as I understand it, was that everything was SAMBO. Post communist russia seems a little different as far as party lines go. Ryabko, for himself personally, says only that he learned from his uncle. He is in posession of some decidedly archaic skills, such as sword fighting and using a cossack whip. And there's something decidedly medieval and rustic about the clothes his civilian students wore, although that could be more to do with economics than anything. :)

The Spiridonov theory put forth by the other guy from the previous link is interesting, but doesn't really account for Rybko's system, which doesn't look much like Kadochnikov's. Also, the body movements and theory don't look like any conventional H2H I've seen, and have one feature that I have yet to see in any TCMA form - use of the shoulder as a piston.

How long to learn? Depends of course, but based on my least expreienced friend's performance I'd say 1 year twice a week will give you a solid functonal skill. Retention? That's really a function of how far you progress. At some point, you can turn on the skill at will, and later on (this is where Vlad's at) you can't turn it off.

[Kolschey]

Mr. Jellyman,

I am not sure if this has been brought to your attention yet, but on this board we do ask people to sign all of their posts with their full name. If Jellyman is your last name, then it would be appreciated if you could also provide your first name as part of your signature. You can even set up your profile to do this automatically as part of the signature function.
Welcome to e-budo! Please do continue with your discussion, and pardon my interruption.
Many thanks!

[jellyman]

Woops!

Just figured out how to edit the profile.

John Elliott

[Tom Douglas]

John:

Your Ph.D. friend in Moscow: what a find! It would be wonderful to engage her mind for a few hours over dinner about Russian history generally, particularly with respect to the post-Soviet transition. Please do give your best effort to finding out more about the book in question, even translating part(s) if possible.

I'd also be interested to know if there are/were any "training manuals" for the Russian Martial Art(s), along the lines of old European sword/fencing manuals or Japanese bugei scrolls. It seems likely that there may have been such documents, particularly if these arts were preserved through the Russian Orthodox monasteries (which presumably had some degree of literacy).

I wonder if Joe Svinth (a browser and poster at this forum) has any sources or references with regard to RMAs. If you haven't checked with him, his website is www.ejmas.com.

History has little to do with whether the RMA can be taught well and used effectively today. Any comments about questionable history should not be taken to be questions about Systema's usefulness.

Thanks for your interesting contributions to this thread.

[jellyman]

Tom

No offense taken. My interest in the matter is purely academic, really. I'll check out your friend when I get a chance.

There should be some manuals about somewhere. Next time I go to Russia (probably next year??:rolleyes: ) I'd like to have a more focused trip.

[Joseph Svinth]

Unfortunately, I don't read Russian. I say "unfortunately" because the University of Washington library has scads of anthropological texts written in Russian that contain mentions of wrestling, boxing, etc. (Sadly, the professors are mostly interested in other things, like Soviet missile strength in the same region.) But anyway, if you read Russian, University of Washington and Harvard are among your best places to start a research project on Slavic and Central Asian wrestling styles.

A history of the European circus might also be worthwhile. Don't laugh: in the mid-17th century, the Russians banned dancing, fiddlers, masks, and minstrels, as the clerics said that these shows put undue emphasis on sex and violence, which in turn corrupted morals and led young people astray. As a result, wrestlers, fencers, bear-trainers, playwrights, and other entertainers started looking for secular employment; thus the rise of the traveling circus. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that this is where some of the magic acts associated with strength acts originated. If you go this route, don't forget to take a look at the Romani, aka Gypsies, who are very numerous in Hungary.

Ties into German wrestling and strength routines would also be worth following, as the Slavs and Germans have been back and forth for centuries. The recent connections are well known. In the late 19th century, for instance, German and Polish strongmen were very active in Lithuania and St. Petersburg. Think, for example, of Hackenschmdit and Zbyszko. Farther back, in 1669, Adam Olearius, a German scholar from Holstein who visited Moscow four times between 1634 and 1643, described some Muscovite games involving boxing and cudgeling. These games took place on Sundays and holidays, and Olearius was amazed that the losers did not become violent afterward, as was evidently the case in comparable German games. Olearius also wrote that in Moscow, wrestling was associated mostly with skomorokhi, or "players." These were entertainers who sang, danced, juggled, wrestled, and worked puppets and bears. Some worked in small groups while others were organized into companies of 60 to 100 people. As a result, most Great Russians associated wrestling with traveling circuses. And such acts traveled widely, too. For instance, one puppeteer, J.B. Hilverding, was in Prague in 1698, Danzig in 1699, Stockholm in 1700, Nuremberg in 1701, and Basel in 1702.

Turkic and Mongol wrestling is another angle that deserves attention. (Cossack is a Khirgiz word meaning "freemen"; many Cossacks were runaway serfs.)

There could be Chinese influence, too, but I'd guess that this was more Tibetan than Chinese, as the Russian military was scheming hard in Tibet in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Anyway, there are a whole lot of different cultures' fighting methods (and nationalisms, and myths) involved here, and to my knowledge, there aren't many translations from Russian, Turkish, Persian (the old court language of the Turkic emirates), or even German.

For online links, all I have are the same ones everybody else has, namely:

* http://www.amerross.com/links.html
* http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/statyi/sambo.html
* http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Sideline/9563/wreslink2.html

[Tom Douglas]

Thanks, Joe.