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Spiritwinds
25th March 2002, 02:58
Please before you read this and answer, be aware I am not attacking tournaments as they are known today in the United States. I am not attepmting to open a can of worms, I am genuinly curious as to why students/instructors participate.
For the record, I nor my students participate in any students.

So here it is:

Why participate in tournaments?

Does participation advocate violence, what does participate teach?

What do you or your students say or feel before or after competing?

How do you address to yourself or explain to your students the idea that at a tournament it is expect to "hit" someone for a point yet if done on the street it becomes a different situation, a situation involving the law and self protection?

Once again, this is NOT challeging anyone, their practices or teaching methods, I am interested in information/opinions.

Thanks
Keith Lutz
Divine Winds Budo

Ron Rompen
25th March 2002, 03:08
Why participate in tournaments?

I partcipate in tournaments for several reasons. I guess the major one is to see if I have improved any in my technique or speed since the last one. Short of going out and fighting in the street, this is the one place where I can at least come close to having to really prove myself.

I also enjoy meeting other MA's, comparing styles and techniques, and (hopefully) learning something new.


Does participation advocate violence, what does participate teach?

I don't believe it does. Instead, participation in a tournament (should) teach sportsmanship, the importance of trying rather than winning, and open you up to new ideas.


What do you or your students say or feel before or after competing?

Usually I am the only student from our dojo who goes to the tournaments (don't ask why...I have no idea). Sensei has told me several times to enjoy myself, and to do my best. I have been fortunate enough to come home with trophies and medals from most tournaments I have entered, but in most cases I don't really mention it in the dojo.....it's not really important.


How do you address to yourself or explain to your students the idea that at a tournament it is expect to "hit" someone for a point yet if done on the street it becomes a different situation, a situation involving the law and self protection?

I haven't really given that a lot of thought, so I don't have a good answer. I know that when I am competing that, barring bad luck, I will not receive a serious injury, and I know my opponent is not trying to really injure me. On the street, it is exactly the opposite....my opponent IS trying to hurt (or kill) me, and all the tournament rules go out the window.

Rogier
25th March 2002, 07:47
well I do it because I like to see if I can actually keep myself standing with the techniques I've learned.

The chance that I ever get into a real life situation is not that big, but it is nice to see if you actually can use your techniques..

And the kick you get when you walk onto that mat with lots of people watching you is unbelievable... huray for the adreneline rush..

Spiritwinds
25th March 2002, 20:41
Hello Ron,

Good post, thanks for the honesty.

What do the other students think of your participation?

What prompted you to do this alone, did you question your instructor first?

Is sportsmanship a valid concept in self-protection?

Thanks again for your relaxed honesty.

Keith Lutz
Divine Winds Budo

Spiritwinds
25th March 2002, 20:45
Hello Rogier,

As I said to Ron, thanks for your honesty.

You mentioned checking your techniques. Do you beleive you get "fight reality" from tournament participation?

And you mention the adrenaline rush. Do you mean you are a showman at heart or you enjoy a rush from what you are doing?

Thanks Rogier

Keith Lutz
Divine Winds Budo

Ron Rompen
25th March 2002, 21:00
What do the other students think of your participation?

They are supportive, and a few of them have been persuaded to enter other tournaments occasionally.


What prompted you to do this alone, did you question your instructor first?

Yes, I did discuss it with my Sensei, and she fully approved of my decision/desire to compete. I don't know what really prompted me to do it.....I guess I just wanted to see if I was as good (or bad) as I thought I was.


Is sportsmanship a valid concept in self-protection?

Definitely...in fact, I think it is the ONLY valid concept when demonstrating under controlled conditions (like a tournament). If on the other hand, you mean on the street, then the answer has to be no. If I am put in the position where I have to fight (as opposed to run, or talk my way out of it) then I am in a life-or-death situation, and anything goes.


You mentioned checking your techniques. Do you beleive you get "fight reality" from tournament participation?

No, not really. Real life is totally different from what we train to do, but a good MA should be adaptable enough to modify techniques, incorporate different things, and adapt to whatever the situation may be.



And you mention the adrenaline rush. Do you mean you are a showman at heart or you enjoy a rush from what you are doing?

I think we are all showmen at heart, and like to be watched and admired. And it feels GREAT to stand there in the middle of a group, and be called out to receive your trophy/medal.

Rogier
25th March 2002, 21:26
well perhaps I didn't formulate it quite as I meant it..

When I go to a tournament everything is fine and I'm a bit nervous, but when I hear my name and I walk to the mat I get very very nervous. Then as I get ready and greet my opponent that nervousness becomes kind of an adrenline rush..

So it has doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that people are watching....

As for trying out techniques and real life situations, I know it is not much like real life combat, but it is the closest you'll get without having to go into a bar and pick a fight.


Any way I like it when I win but that isn't really necessary for me, when I've had a match and wether I won or lost. I always have a bit of a feeling that I can take on the whole world for the rest of the day (maybe it's silly, but that's how I feel)

keep the questions and good topics coming :D

Spiritwinds
26th March 2002, 20:51
Kenzo

I must say I would like to shake your wifes hand!

She would be a shining example to alot of trophy hunters.

I agree I think public veues help get us over such things. That's one of the reasons we use demostrations.

Thanks Kenzo, great post!

Keith Lutz
Divine Winds Budo

Shitoryu Dude
26th March 2002, 21:06
I started doing tournaments as a way to test myself. As someone who had always been bullied when younger, all the training in the world didn't matter if I still carried baggage around with me. Fear of getting my ass beaten into the dirt was my major problem.

After two years of getting into the ring with people who were far larger and intimidating that I was I noticed that I wasn't even anxious about it anymore. I had fought dozens of times, taken a lot of hits, and laid out some people who previously would have scared the hell out of me. Baggage gone.

:beer:

Spiritwinds
26th March 2002, 21:08
I didn't mean to appear to misunderstand. I wanted to be sure I did understand.

Great that you were able to work on your nerves. That's one of the reasons I like working in front of crowds. Not to mention I'm a huge clown.

I can say, however, if your after more realism, try freeform in a more traditional form. i.e. light gloves and a mouthpiece, full to 3/4 speed/contact barring of course permanently damaging techniques. No rank, no points, no stopping, no rules. Makes for bumps/bruises/some injuries but it really is fun. Obviously this is not for all students, but for those that particioate it can be alot of fun!

Feels good to conquor a challenge, I agree, feels great. Drives you on to bigger challeges!

Thanks Rogier

Spiritwinds
26th March 2002, 21:14
Exactly what I was looking for people who had baggage they were facing baggage.

Outstanding, I was after the same when I was younger. No baggage any longer so now I enjoy really heavy freeform in the dojo and demonstrations. I said earlier I am just a clown at heart. I get such a charge out of getting a crowd to laugh.

Do you still compete? Why, Why not?

Thanks Harvey!

Keith Lutz

Shitoryu Dude
27th March 2002, 20:31
I quit competing many years ago for a variety of reasons, but I primarily just got sick and tired of putting up with most tournaments being flooded with students and black belts from a couple local McDojos. The black belts who also acted as ring judges were so blatently biased that if you were competing against someone from their school you practically had to beat them twice and they didn't have to beat you at all in order to win. At my last tournament I literally had to chase a guy around the ring (as in run after behind him) and he never got called on it. I eventually beat him (I ALWAYS beat that guy), but I was just so totally fed up with the BS that accompanied the tournament circuit I couldn't take it any more. I just took my trophies home and continued to train for other goals.

Odd thing - my Sifu told me that one day it would happen.

:beer:

Spiritwinds
27th March 2002, 21:03
Hey Harvey,

I know hwere your at. The line for me was seeing multicolored nuckuku & kama. Not tp mention bo with silver tape on the ends. That was enough for me.

Keith Lutz

kenshorin
2nd April 2002, 20:02
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
I quit competing many years ago for a variety of reasons, but I primarily just got sick and tired of putting up with most tournaments being flooded with students and black belts from a couple local McDojos. The black belts who also acted as ring judges were so blatently biased that if you were competing against someone from their school you practically had to beat them twice and they didn't have to beat you at all in order to win. At my last tournament I literally had to chase a guy around the ring (as in run after behind him) and he never got called on it. I eventually beat him (I ALWAYS beat that guy), but I was just so totally fed up with the BS that accompanied the tournament circuit I couldn't take it any more. I just took my trophies home and continued to train for other goals.

Odd thing - my Sifu told me that one day it would happen.

:beer:

Thats basically the same reason I got turned off by tournaments as well. Also, they ceased to be "fun"... at the shodan and up divisions there are those who take it WAYYYY to seriously.

Budoka 34
5th April 2002, 15:55
This is what I love about E-Budo! Open, honest, and intelligent conversation.
:D
Keith: I see where you are comming from and enjoy your posts.
I enjoyed competing. I loved overcomming the prematch jitters(similar to confrontation), working what I had been taught as I had been taught, and meeting some of the best Martial Artists in the world.
There are risks however. I was injured at my last tournament last year. I will probably never compete in Kumite again. So I've began training to be a referee. I truly believe that as long as it doesn't become your driving principle, competition can be a very good thing.
See my post under "Why Not" for more details.

P.s. Stay away from "OPEN"tournaments, the K-marts of the tournament world.
:smilejapa

joe yang
6th April 2002, 05:50
Where I train we have a an informal, one tournament rule. Students are encouraged to compete in at least one tournament in the whole time they train.

Now all the bad things about tournaments are too true. The one small benefit of tournament fighting. Remember how scared you where your first couple of fights? Can't remember that far back? Watch how scared first time white belts and yellow belts are. Tournament fighting is about learning to manage fear, stress and adrenaline in a safe, controlled environment, as opposed to under combat when it is too late to discover you are unprepared.