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J. A. Crippen
25th March 2002, 05:18
After thinking about it a bit I decided not to post a reply to the "Tournaments, why" thread but instead start a new one asking why people *don't* compete in tournaments. Hopefully this will prevent a flame war from starting, which I'd rather not see...

My ryu does not train competition. We don't do randori/kumite/sparring/<insert term here>, and we don't enter in tournaments of any kind. Members of my dojo have certainly competed in competitions in the past, perhaps associated with other arts, perhaps not. Some still do occasionally enter in tournaments, however they do not do so representing the dojo or school but as entirely independent individuals.

I feel like I understand some of the reasons why people are interested in tournaments. There's the feeling of competition, the thrill of victory, the external affirmation of one's skills and capabilities. And many other reasons as well, certainly as many as there are individuals involved.

But why do many people *not* compete?

I personally don't for a number of reasons. I'm not the sort of person who is in psychological terms 'externally motivated'. I'm much more interested in understanding and improving myself than I am in comparing myself to others. I also feel that time spent in competition would be better spent in training the basics, hence improving myself both physically and mentally.

One major drawback of competition as I see it is that many techniques cannot permitted for the safety of the participants. My art is often quite vicious, with the intent of totally disabling or incapacitating the opponent if not killing them outright. It would be impossible to perform much of the art in a competitive situation because of the danger of the techniques involved. (Being dropped on your head isn't very fun, and neither is having your elbow broken and shoulder dislocated along the way.) I train these techniques over and over in hopes of internalizing them to the point that they become reflexes, like bicycling or typing. If I had to conciously avoid using them in a competitive arena then I feel they would degrade from disuse, or I would tend to perform other less lethal techniques in their place. In this case the rules required for the safety of participants in a competitive situation would basically nullify my art.

There are other philosophical reasons as well. Why would I want to attack someone who does not deserve it? Should they deserve my violence simply because they are asking for it by joining into a tournament? What does that say about me, that I am willing to attack someone for no better reason than to prove that I am better than them? Certainly that's not the point of my training, is it? To prove that I am better than another person? This *is* certainly the point in a number of martial arts I see in my city, with people learning expressly how to win against someone else in competition. But winning tournaments isn't the purpose of my art, so what would it say about me as a practitioner if I used my training in such a way?

So why *shouldn't* people compete? And why don't you *personally* compete? These are two different questions, but they don't have two different answers. There are many answers for them, and those answers will bring up more questions, I'm sure. I'd like to see what other e-budo members have to say and what thought-provoking questions they'll ask...

Spiritwinds
25th March 2002, 20:25
Hello James,
Excellent post. I wondered how long it would take for someone to fire this back at me.

You hit on two primary reasons why I don't participate.

1) Why would I attack someone I'm not threatened by? In my opinion this is not practicing budo. I can find the same experimentation within the dojo or by visiting other dojos that don't mind very physical training.

2) I believe that by participating a person will develop habits that will result in habits that will hinder effective self protection. We all know that practicing what you preach works. We see it everyday.

3) I also believe that tournaments in sport form with trophies and prizes are not focused on testing skills. I believe competitions like "The Ultimate Fighting Challenges" or whatever they're called are closer to real experiences. Unfortunately like other tournaments they are very much tied to ego, to finding who is the "bad man" in town and not learning. Of course, being televised on pay-perview transmits a wonderful image of someone practicing martial ways to the public at large. Wonder how many of those folks become friends when they are finished. I very much believe there should be no money, trophies or any sort of reward except training. If you you think otherwise maybe you should look in the mirror ans ask yourself why do I participate. Do I need those trophies to prove what I can do?

Just my humble opinion, besides you were just trying to get more karma points. LOL

Keith Lutz
Divine Winds Budo

J. A. Crippen
26th March 2002, 00:47
Hoho, you caught me. The truth is I was just fishing for karma. ^_^

ZenHG
4th April 2002, 22:19
I feel that competition breeds ego.

As someone who used to compete on a National Level, I feel that tournaments are a big waste of time, and go against Budo in a big way.

~David Chapman.
Sho-Rei-Shobu-Kan Goju Ryu Karate Do.

Budoka 34
5th April 2002, 15:34
I do agree that participation in tournaments can affect your ego.
Before competeing I was not very sure of my skills. Now I know that what I have been taught can be effective. The important thing is to remember the context. Kumite is not combat, it is a game of tag. But the speed, accuracy, and technique are still the same. Kata is not combat, but good form can translate into strong stances, good Kimae, and Zanshin, which are all nessesary for success in combat. We can only truly measure ourselves against ourselves, but sometimes you need an external standard to test you own.


:smilejapa

ZenHG
7th April 2002, 07:51
Originally posted by Budoka 34
I do agree that participation in tournaments can affect your ego.
Before competeing I was not very sure of my skills. Now I know that what I have been taught can be effective. The important thing is to remember the context. Kumite is not combat, it is a game of tag. But the speed, accuracy, and technique are still the same. Kata is not combat, but good form can translate into strong stances, good Kimae, and Zanshin, which are all nessesary for success in combat. We can only truly measure ourselves against ourselves, but sometimes you need an external standard to test you own.


:smilejapa

Very interesting, and very good points you've made there.

I do not think tournament sparring itself is good test of skills, more often than not, in tournament sparring, you will see people flailing wildly, without any attention to accuracy, or skill - they just want the point so they can win a trophy.

A lot of the time, judges are not even fair in their judging, it becomes a big contest where each school tries to win no matter what - in Kata competition especially, more often than not, people are trying to look pretty, to impress the judges, and don't learn anything from what they are doing.

~David Chapman.
Sho-Rei-Shobu-Kan Goju Ryu Karate Do.

Budoka 34
8th April 2002, 19:47
I've seen that! I started training to be a WKF certified referee at the end of last season for the exact reasons you have stated. I will say that you see more of the flailing and looking pretty in the "open" tournaments then in the WKF arena.
:smilejapa

Shitoryu Dude
8th April 2002, 20:29
As for the flailing around bit - the dojo I attend is very strict on scoring points for kumite. You can "score" a zillion times, but if your focus, technique, power, etc are not close enough to perfect to have not only been effective, but worthy of putting in a textbook, you are not going to get any credit. You might get yelled at instead for being sloppy and told to start doing better.

Watching Shihan train a student for kata competition is something else. I'll show up early for class just so I can pick up on as many of the small details as I can. As good as some of them are at kata before the one on one lessons, they are always far superior afterwards.

We send off a small group of maybe a dozen students to some of the tournaments around here a few times a year (the school does not live for tournaments) and they nearly always do extremely well.

:beer;

ZenHG
10th April 2002, 04:39
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
As for the flailing around bit - the dojo I attend is very strict on scoring points for kumite. You can "score" a zillion times, but if your focus, technique, power, etc are not close enough to perfect to have not only been effective, but worthy of putting in a textbook, you are not going to get any credit. You might get yelled at instead for being sloppy and told to start doing better.

Watching Shihan train a student for kata competition is something else. I'll show up early for class just so I can pick up on as many of the small details as I can. As good as some of them are at kata before the one on one lessons, they are always far superior afterwards.

We send off a small group of maybe a dozen students to some of the tournaments around here a few times a year (the school does not live for tournaments) and they nearly always do extremely well.

:beer;

I'm sure there are Dojos out there that do better than flail around, and I have seen a few of their students in competitions, but I guess I am just one who cannot see the value of Martial Practice as a sport, I think it is too harmful, and tournaments can give the wrong impression, and often overlooks the 'Do' in Budo.

~David Chapman.
Sho-Rei-Shobu-Kan Goju Ryu Karate Do.

Budoka 34
10th April 2002, 12:28
David:
Well writen. I try to remember that the "Do" is also the "way of humility" something you must develope to be a successful competitor.
"Just a thought".

:smilejapa