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cjl108
29th March 2002, 22:40
I was just searching around the net and found that Sato Kinbei was a 4th generation lineage holder of Ba-Gua (not to mention proficient in other internal arts). I don'tremember what Hatsumi sensei's connection with Sato Kinbei is, or Tanemura sensei's connection, but I know there is one.

So the questions are:
-Does anyone know if these internal arts influence the x-kans taijutsu?
-Has anyone specifically trained under Sato Kinbei's dojo with chinese internal arts?
-Has either Tanemura or Hatsumi ever spoken about these internal arts and their principles in relation to taijutsu?
-Does anyone have any history on Takamatsu and one of the internal arts? (please share if you do!)
-Does anyone have any first hand experience with these internal arts and taijutsu together? (I would love to hear your experiences!)

any input would be great!!!

Cory Leistikow

Kevin Geaslin
29th March 2002, 23:32
Sato Kinbei sensei studied Hakkesho (Bagua) of the Li Zi Ming line, as well as Taikyokuken, Hakkyokuken (Zhang Zhong line), and Kei I ken. You can read more about his teachers at www.jujutsu.com

Sato Sensei created a style called Daiwado, which is heavily influenced by Bagua, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu (perhaps Gikan Ryu?) I've only seen it in books, looks very interesting though.

mrmonkey
29th March 2002, 23:47
Funtionally there should be very little
difference in the application of good
solid authentic Japanese budo and Bagua Zhang,
or TaiChi, or Hsing I.

They seem to all come from the same root,
which is India through China.

cjl108
30th March 2002, 01:03
Originally posted by mrmonkey
Funtionally there should be very little
difference in the application of good
solid authentic Japanese budo and Bagua Zhang,
or TaiChi, or Hsing I.

what about non-application teaching methods within these internal styles , like standing post- used to build qi etc. Or circle walking from ba-gua, which originates with taoist meditative practices, and the nei-gung from these internal styles.

I agree that at the highest level of budo, these principles are there and integrated, but the internal styles tend to emphasize them earlier on in training. Most taijutsu I see has a lack of heaven and earth connection, most don't know how to ground properly to disperse an attack (myself included), etc. I believe that just by training in proper taijutsu, these principles are inherent and will grow. however most people that I know that do qi-gong(or any type of nei-gong) and taijutsu, these principles are understood and integrated quicker.

I am curious if people use these internal teaching methods with their taijutsu. Do others use standing/walking methods of qi-gong to help their taijutsu? If one practices these internal methods, will it change one's taijutsu so it is no longer "Bujinkan Taijutsu" or "Genbukan Taijutsu"?

Just curious about other's ideas

Cory Leistikow

mrmonkey
30th March 2002, 03:26
My Taijutsu would be perfect if it weren't for one element.

me. ;)

I tend to focus more on what I learned in my limited Tai Chi study.
I am only an appreciator of Bagua based on what I read and see other people do.

There is an inherent anti-intellectualism that I see in most martial artists here in North America, that doesn't support the formation of questions of a type that lead to the formation of "internal martial arts."
Often people just assume that with enough mediocre practice you will get it, and that what they have is the true art. The essence. They cannot use words to communicate what they feel and believe, so they assume that such a thing is impossible.

As you have stated, it's all in the training.
Since most organized training I have engaged in is laissez faire, and half-hearted, I feel it is neccessary to emulate the better Japanese and Chinese practioners I know. And practice more often with people who value martial art that functions on the basis of it's original purpose. As opposed to as a social hobby filled with pseudo-intellectualism, petty drama and political back biting.

So the training is also used to stimulate questions that lead to conversations of a nature that lead to helpful metaphors and paradigms for describing what we do.

Linking such ideas back to universal principles
in nature would seem a logical step after that,
wouldn't it?

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu can contain all the elements of everything.
It is a method from which you create "your martial art".
I am in need of making it work for me, learning all that works for me at first and going back again and again until everything that doesn't work is fixed in me so it does.

Thank you for starting such a stimulating topic.
What Martial Art do you study Cory?

cjl108
30th March 2002, 05:05
Yes, I too see the need of making budo taijutsu "one's own art".

I have a wide range of martial arts backgrounds, but for the past 7 years I have been studying with the Bujinkan. I have a good friend who studies hsing-i ba-gua and tai ji, and we have been good friends for 4 years, so our topic of conversation more often than not turns to martial arts and philosophy. We both came from very different viewpoints on the whole "which is better: internal/external" debate and over the past few years we have come to middle grounds and mutual acceptance/understanding which led to both of our interests in each other's arts.

I was enrolled in TCM school in LA and as a requirement, had to study taiqi and qi-gong. Never did my world shift like it did after steady practice. The problem has been how to integrate it with Taijutsu. For most chinese internal arts, there were certain sets of qi-gong/nei-gong for the art that "fit" that art. they were specificly designed to that system of moving. So my concern has been "how do you develop these internal energies so you taijutsu becomes better" I fugured if you do tai-qi, your taijutsu will start to look like tai-qi, and if hsing-i your taijutsu will start to look like hsing-i. I want my taijutsu to look like Hatsumi's!!! that is what Bujinkan Taijutsu is to me! ...Granted, we have very different body types, so we will inherently move differently, but It can be Bujinkan taijutsu.

So this is where Ba-qua comes in. (not to mention I am fascinated with the i-ching) Dong hai chuan (the founder of ba-gua-zhang) didn't have a certain "system" of ba-qua. It was a mixture of some taoist circle walking meditation(qi-gong) and other arts he picked up prior to the taoist stuff. IT was only after he practiced walking in circles for years, that he integrated the palm strikes from his earlier styles. The most amazing thing about his teaching was that he only took students who were already masters at an art. He then took the principles of his circle walking and fit it to each individual student. That is where the many different styles of ba-gua come from. It is the circle walking qigong (and single/double palm change) mixed with other chinese arts which are now, chen-ting hua style, yin fu style etc.

So I have been very interested in ba-gua and these principles and how it can make my taijutsu better(though I do believe that just proper training with a good teacher will give an average student enough for a lifetime) but I got really excited when I found that Sato Kinbei was a 4th generation lineage holder of Ba-gua. So I wonder if Hatsumi sensei studied some specificly internal nei-gong, or Takamatsu sensei.. I have heard that he studied chinese styles and even taught them. If he did study them, did those principles get ingrained in his taijutsu and get passed dow to us? These teachers were able to master so much (takamatsu sensei/sato kinbei/hatsumi sensei) , it is amazing

So it brings me back to, will ba-gua help or hurt my taijutsu. I believe it would change my body, and my taijutsu would therefore change. But who knows...maybe hatsumi sensei sees something I don't(maybe??? I am sure he does ;) )maybe these internal arts change the body/actually morph the body in a certain way . I know Hatsumi wants us to be natural, maybe qi-gong isn't natural....who knows!!!

I am interested to hear others views... sorry if I have too many run-on sentences... just get excited sometimes...

Cory Leistikow
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

p.s. Eric, you said you had some tai-qi practice... my little exposre to it definately made me more aware of my spine and its connection to heaven and earth...not to mention how it changed my understanding of power from the legs(earth) .... I am interested in how your taijutsu has changed with those principles....also do you have any standing practice??? I have started to take the idea of standing post, and instead hold a kamae... get in ichimonji and sink, relax, stack the spine, hips open, sacrum dropped, head suspended and mind in the dan-tien, etc.... also just like standing wu-ji but shizen instead (not much difference in my opinion)... thinks like that any thoughts?

Bard
30th March 2002, 09:33
Hello there!

While my exposure to BaGuaZhang has been rather limited, it is being taught in the Genbukan. Soke Tanemura is a 5th Generation Grandmaster of BaGuaZhang. Go here for more info:

http://users.skynet.be/genbukan/about.htm

According to an interview with Soke (Tatara Magazine), he first wanted to learn Tai Chi, but Sato Kinbei Sensei told him to do Bagua instead because while good for the health it was also a potent combat art.

For those who didn't see it, there was a lengthy article on Bagua in the latest issue of Inside Kung Fu which talked a lot about the combat aspect of it.

Be well,
Bard Titlestad

Filip Poffe
30th March 2002, 09:38
Mr. Leistikow,

You can find some information about Sato Kinbei Sensei here : http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/about2.htm

Another story that can be found on the Internet is this one :
"When Takamatsu was twenty years old, he ceased working at his father's factory and left to China, where he wanted to test his skills. He went there across Korea, where he met teacher Kim Kei-mei-a and he learned from him. Later he mastered eighteen Korean and Chinese martial arts."

and

"Takamatsu had been a number of things in his life, including a bodyguard to the Chinese Emperor."

Yes there's true relationship between the Chinese martial arts (like Pakua, ...) and Jujutsu/Ninpo.

All the best,

mrmonkey
30th March 2002, 13:59
For most chinese internal arts, there were certain sets of qi-gong/nei-gong for the art that "fit" that art. they were specificly designed to that system of moving. So my concern has been "how do you develop these internal energies so you taijutsu becomes better" I fugured if you do tai-qi, your taijutsu will start to look like tai-qi, and if hsing-i your taijutsu will start to look like hsing-i. I want my taijutsu to look like Hatsumi's!!! that is what Bujinkan Taijutsu is to me! ...Granted, we have very different body types, so we will inherently move differently, but It can be Bujinkan taijutsu.


-----I tend to look at middle aged and older men and women doing these things to see what the art really looks like at the core. Especially when they are "freestyling."


So it brings me back to, will ba-gua help or hurt my taijutsu. I believe it would change my body, and my taijutsu would therefore change. But who knows...maybe hatsumi sensei sees something I don't(maybe??? I am sure he does )maybe these internal arts change the body/actually morph the body in a certain way . I know Hatsumi wants us to be natural, maybe qi-gong isn't natural....who knows!!!

-----If you let it hurt you it will hurt you, if you let it help you, it will help you. Each art has it's training methods, and songs and stories, and often these are mistaken for the martial art itself.
The difference seems to be that the internal arts are linked together more often to fit the most pathological and safely stressful case to build the body and educate it in good safe movement simultaneously.
If you keep the mindset of the internal arts alive it will enliven your taijutsu. If you try and Bruce it up....god help you. ; D



p.s. Eric, you said you had some tai-qi practice...
---honestly not that much...a year on and off. I love the art, and study it through friends and from afar currently.
---The guy who taught me, knew I could take hits and fall and do chin-na stuff so he was happy to have someone big to work over after class sometimes. He was an excellent instructor and very intelligent so we could discuss this stuff for hours.
---My affinty for sword work has drawn a few tai chi people to me, and that is worth hours of fun. ; D


my little exposure to it definately made me more aware of my spine and its connection to heaven and earth...not to mention how it changed my understanding of power from the legs(earth) .... I am interested in how your taijutsu has changed with those principles...

-------Intellectually it has broadened everything.
-----I delve into the I Ching and the TaoTeChing for inspiration the same way I review old videtapes and catch somethng new every time.
----The Tai Chi Classics and the songs of Bagua are chock full of wisdom.
-----Tuttle has a book on Tai Chi By Cheng ManChing and Robert W. Smith, that kicks serious butt. The application section has the old guy in postures I see all the time being done by our Soke.
----Mostly my legs are like water, and my body is like a boat in them.
----We should take anything more specific off-line because it's not fair to use this bandwidth up and give away too many trade secrets. ;D
----Ancient Chinese Secret, huh? :eek:




also do you have any standing practice???
I have started to take the idea of standing post, and instead hold a kamae... get in ichimonji and sink, relax, stack the spine, hips open, sacrum dropped, head suspended and mind in the dan-tien, etc.... also just like standing wu-ji but shizen instead (not much difference in my opinion)... thinks like that any thoughts?


----Hmmm...well Wuji(no extremity)...there seems to be no difference and then there seems to be a world. I am of a different mind than most about Kamae. they are just interesting positions that are ideals of moving rest or ideals of transit.....like intersections and drive through window lines, not statue poses. I like reviewing them by moving through them. and standing them in constant(albeit small and slow) motion.

:wave:

---this is fun Cory....
---feel free to PM me about this if we have to go into more application oriented depth...or just for fun. :) :)

garren osborne
30th March 2002, 15:01
this is a thread with fascinating potential!

In my experience ninjutsu is as much an internal art as tai chi, bagua and aikido (and wing chun?)and they all have certain principles of body mechanics and psycology in common as well as destinct differences. My background in martial arts has ranged from an extremly hard style of chow gar praying mantis to sahaja yoga meditation (which i consider is a martial art in the deeper sense)but my main physical practice is ninjutsu for the following reasons. One of the defining characteristics of internal arts is the use of the chi/qui/ki/prana system and its development. To me all the internal technology is in ninjutsu but it is down to us to explore this and many other aspects. For example balance for a ninja is very important ive practiced hicho and other kamaes on differnet surfaces as chi kung postures including on posts, up turned bricks and railings and through this very natural exercise i have eperienced as much if not more opening of chi than in my previous 5 years practice of tai chi etc + gained a huge amount fun learning to stand and move in nature. What ive found is that chi can be activated by a state of mind and natural breathing and have experinced this while just walking along a beach and during the intensity climbing a crag. I feel this is why most of these arts have deep spiritual aspects at their heart, if we experiment in a spirit of openess and honesty the body, chi, and spirit will intergreat naturaly. garren osborne:nin:

cjl108
30th March 2002, 17:28
Great stuff everyone!!!

That's very cool that Tanemura sensei teaches ba-gua... How much does he teach it? Is it a standard in the Genbukan curriculum?

Eric, you are right about the "if you let it hurt you, it will." I think that it is important than no matter what art or arts you study, make sure it has those principles that you want in your life. If Taijutsu is an extension of your life in a most natural way, and one practices another art with emphasis on health and proper alignment and a good heart.... I don't see how you could go wrong...


I am of a different mind than most about Kamae. they are just interesting positions that are ideals of moving rest or ideals of transit.....like intersections and drive through window lines, not statue poses. I like reviewing them by moving through them. and standing them in constant(albeit small and slow) motion.

Though I too believe that kamae are not static, I do believe that they are keys that hold principles, inherent in the "spirit" of the kamae. -- In th little tai-qi I have done(chen - short form), we would hold ward-off, brushknee, etc for quite a while(til it felt like my legs would explode), holding the basic principles and keeping the mind in the dan-tien. we would then try to "link" the poses while maintaining those principles... it is just easier when standing still to understand those principles... but of course standing still is just a tool, if you don't practice those keys while moving, the tools are useless...

But contrary to that, ba-gua too believes that static poses should not be practiced... as far as I have seen, the most "basic" form of practice (like standing in wu-ji in tai-ji) is walking the circle(somethimes fast, sometimes slow). so they too have those principles that aren't practiced staticly.




The Tai Chi Classics and the songs of Bagua are chock full of wisdom.

yeah, the classics are great, but I have never seen the songs of ba-gua!... are there copies floating around on the net? or do you have a specific book to recommend?

Also for the aikidoka out there, Kumar Francis(ba-gua, qi-gong)of California studied with Ueshiba sensei for a couple of years and believed that sensei studied ba-gua while in china and that is where much of his explosive, spiraling power came from(he states it as opinion, not fact). You can find that exerpt in one of his books(I forget:confused: ) ... which I highly reccommend all of his books, Opening the 9 gates(not the book with the aikido reference) is great as are the rest of his books!!!

Again, thanks for the links and info... :smilejapa

fun stuff!!!!

Cory Leistikow
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

Jeffery Brian Hodges
30th March 2002, 18:22
That's very cool that Tanemura sensei teaches ba-gua... How much does he teach it? Is it a standard in the Genbukan curriculum?>>

When I was in Japan, the study of Bagua was on sunday mornings, with chi kung first, then to nei kung circle walking to kinnajutsu, etc, sunday evenings was for shuriken/instructors,etc, each day and night had an area of study, for example ninpo taijutsu, jujutsu, bikenjutsu, bojutsu, pakua, etc.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho

:nin:

Kat
31st March 2002, 09:56
Hey there
Great thread great posts,thanks to all
I am down here in OZ and have practised several BGZ and Yiquan.Recently I became interested in Bujinkan after meeting serval practioners.
While I think the movment is ofcause different, your emphasis on continous motion and relaxed motion holds true (according to the BGZ stlye I practise)to the priciples I am taught.Our particular school also practises a type of Henka(s?),variation upon variton within partner work.I understand that this is a difference between Bujinkan and Genbukan but as of now I have only been exposed to Bujinkan(not through W Roy).I should say that BGZ has a lot of variation from stlye to stlye,unlike the Ninpo that I have encountered.Many of the styles I have come across focus purely on forms with little partner work or sparing.
That said I think very highly of the health benefits of circle walking and related medative practises and would think they could only add to your training in many areas.
If any one could give me a contact to any Australian Genbukan I would be most appeciated.:)

Kat
31st March 2002, 23:57
OOPS:eek: sorry new to this site
Andy Cattermole

John Lindsey
1st April 2002, 01:37
Some of you might have seen the video produced by Sato Sensei that showed actual films of Li Zi Ming. The majority of the video is showing techniques of Sui Yunjiang. His website is at: http://sol.spaceports.com/~asiagirl/bagua/sui.html

I had always heard that Sato Sensei was made a grandmaster of this style, but wasn't sure what that exactly meant. On the video, Ming's widow is interviewed and said that it was true. Then Sato Sensei shows two stone seals/stamps that are supposed to also signify the grandmastership of the art. I am not sure if others where also given mastership or not, but there seems to be no doubt Sato Sensei got it.


From Sui's website about the video:


In that same year, the Japanese Baguazhang Research Association and the Japanese Gai Zhi Company came to Beijing in order to make a video series of Sui Yunjiang's Baguazhang for distribution in the Japanese market. There have been many articles about him and photographs published in Japan's Martial King Magazine, as well as periodicals in other nations such as Switzerland.

pooh
1st April 2002, 07:36
Hello everybody!

Your right-interesting stuff!

I have been involved in the Bujinkan for over 10 years and within the last 5-6 years I began studdying Tai-Ji, Xing Yi and a little bit of Ba Gua (a little bit!) and although I have limited experience in the 3 internal arts of china (Tai-Ji, Xing-Yi, Ba Gua) I have found that they have helped me to make connections in my body as well as access a power that is beyond strength (let's call it "Qi" for lack of a better word). I owe this all to my teachers for being so generous.

I was told this by one of my instructors -"In Tai Ji one cultivates an "empty center, Ba Gua- a wire center, Xing Yi-a solid center." He also compared them by saying that "Tai Ji is like a rubber ball, your apponent bounces off you; Ba Gua is like a wire ball, the apponent gets entangled, Xing Yi is like a steel ball, the apponent feels as if he hits a wall". This is very basic, but a good start to helping those interested, study the different centers in their taijutsu.

I have seen Hatsumi Sensei embody these 3 centers.

I beleive that it is said that Aikido has been influenced by Ba Gua because of the fact that Aikido attacks the "ends" of the apponent, as well as the use of the very apparant, circular movements.

I feel that the study of these internal arts has helped my taijutsu immensly. The organization and coordination of my movements and the "qi" that is being produced is creating a whole new way of doing taijutsu. But I will say that looking back at my training in the Bujinkan, these things are in the training, they just aren't so apparant. The focus is different that the internal arts (at least this is my experence). The Bujinkan is a culmination of "warrior arts", so a big part of the focus is on surviving confrontation(0mote/apperent), but the internal(ura/hidden)is a part of it-it comes with training. On the other hand, the internal arts for the most part is on cultivation of the internal, but you still learn the martial aspects as you learn the internal. So I guess we can think about it like a "0". The internal and external arts start at different places but in the end the all meet at the same place. This is Budo.

Now is my taijutsu affected by my study of these other arts? Probably, but I don't look at it as good or bad thing. This is what I enjoy. This is how I create balance in my life. It makes me happy :smilejapa.

Isn't this what lifes about?

I must be leaving now, I feel my stomach getting hungry for some honey.

Sincerely,
pooh

:wave:

mrmonkey
1st April 2002, 09:17
wow pooh, nice post.
but you might want to edit to add your name quickly before Oni gets on your case about signing your name.

I have discovered that you can get by without the internal aspects of Ninpo informing your Taijutsu, but it is much better to have something inside as well as outside. Whether it is the indigenous Japanese something, or a Chinese internal something, the hard and soft must be balanced, or stagnation seems to occur.

Jay Bell
1st April 2002, 18:11
Apparently when Hatsumi sensei was much younger he asked Takamatsu sensei if he should study internal Chinese arts. Takamatsu sensei told him no...that raw violence would win against internal every time.

I don't know much about the conversation beyond that...but I thought it was pretty interesting..

John Lindsey
2nd April 2002, 02:05
Takamatsu Sensei also said that the only martial arts he ever feared were true Chinese Shaolin and Western boxing.

cjl108
2nd April 2002, 10:00
Takamatsu Sensei also said that the only martial arts he ever feared were true Chinese Shaolin and Western boxing.

From what I understand, shaolin as studied today is missing much of the earlier practices which would then classify it as internal. Bodhidharma came up with the Yi Jin Jing and the Ji Sui Jin (sp?), the muscle/tendon stretching and brain and marrow washing exercies that are said to be the basis of these martial arts. Those pracices alone can tremendously help develop internal awareness and power, some even say that they are the highest forms of buddhist qigong..

As for western boxing... I don't know much about it, but when you see a boxer punch, I see that whole body movement, integrated, focused... somewhat similar to the hsing-i I have seen, but if anyone has any input on western boxing and it's internal aspects, I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts...

An interesting note about some traditional Irish boxing practices... There were warm up exercises written down that at a glance look very similar to qi gong practice. These boxing practices were said to "build a fighting spirit"

I also have heard about the 3 centers...emtpy/wire/solid... and I too have seen hatsumi sensei move through all 3. Taijutsu from what I have seen definately transcends any particular style or theory... I guess that is the key, learn...integrate...transcend



Now is my taijutsu affected by my study of these other arts? Probably, but I don't look at it as good or bad thing. This is what I enjoy. This is how I create balance in my life. It makes me happy .

:toast: well said

Cory Leistikow
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

Jay Bell
2nd April 2002, 17:56
As for western boxing... I don't know much about it, but when you see a boxer punch, I see that whole body movement, integrated, focused... somewhat similar to the hsing-i I have seen, but if anyone has any input on western boxing and it's internal aspects, I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts...

The boxing that Takamatsu sensei was speaking of was actually bare knuckles, old style boxing, not near what we tend to have today.

Filip Poffe
2nd April 2002, 18:06
... and was not only focused on the techniques of the boxers but also the fact that they are not going down from 1 strike !

Cheers,

Jeffery Brian Hodges
2nd April 2002, 18:17
I really hate to go off on hearsay, however I have heard from more than one source that one of the Gyokko ryu scrolls was written in English (or part of one), and it talks about a battle between Takamatsu sensei and an English boxer, wherein he gave Takamatsu sensei a good fight and actually drew some blood, but Takamatsu sensei won in the end. Does anyone else have any elaboration on this?

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Tatsumaki Dojo-Cho

Rikimaru
5th April 2002, 09:26
Dear all,

just to add my 2 Cents here: I'm studying both: Ninjutsu and Baguachang. Though I'm still far away from being able to call myself an expert in one of these two arts, I dare to say that there are similarities - especially Gyokko Ryu and Baguachang share some common principles.

Right - typical for Bagua is the "Circle Walking", but that's "only" the basis for actual combat training. Bagua combat movement is circular, too, and like Ninjutsu it contains a lot of grabbling - Chinese expression: Chin Na

In Baguachang striking, you often use palm strikes and open hands. This does not really knocks an opponent out, but it opens a gate for further techniques...

So, my personal conclusion is therefor: on basis on reports, that for example Gyokko Ryu has some Chinese roots and having trained both - they have certain similarities and are not contraproductive...

http://www.tendokan-dojo.de/grafik/tung.jpg

Tung Hai Chuan - considered as one of the Baguachang founders


PS: Please forgive me my bad English, but I'm not a native speaker...
:toast:

Finny
6th April 2002, 05:43
FWIW, the book by BK Fratzis is titled "Power of Internal Martial Arts: Combat Secrets of Bagua, Tai Chi,and Hsing I"
The section is called 'O-Sensei-where did he get his power?' and he says his opinion is that Ueshiba must have studied Bagua while he was in Manchuria, because he saw direct similarities between Ueshibas Aikido and Bagua.

I asked about this in the Aikido Forum and was told no, there is no connection here, Frantzis was wrong.

Regards,
Brendan Finn:wave:

Rikimaru
6th April 2002, 14:18
I forgot:

You can get some info here:

http://www.tendokan-dojo.de

:smilejapa

pooh
6th April 2002, 17:10
As far as "B.K. Frantzis" is concerned, I heard he was an arrogant S.O.B. The instructor that instructs me on Xing-Yi and Ba-Gua once said that he had studied with his teacher for a very short while and tried to motivate the sifu (sensei)to do things that would decieve the public and make himself (B.K. Frantzis) look like his right hand student; eventhough he was a beginer (under one year) in the class and he had a good amount of senior students above him. Sifu, of course saw right through this and refused his attempts and "Burger King Frantzis" left the instructor soon there after. Not to say that "Burger" isn't accomplished, but I wonder what his motivation is and how strong his roots are in the traditions he has studied?

Never judge a cover by it's book.

I also wanted to add something regarding the study of other arts to enhance taijutsu. When you study one art "pureley" (with no influences) than you develope that art into your body pureley. But, let's say you study Ba Gua to enhance your taijutsu skills, than your mixing body styles.
So you can get an art that has the techniques of Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu etc. with a Ba Gua body (center), or you do Ba Gua with a taijutsu body, or your body gets so confused with everything and when the time comes, what comes out is "blah" and your technique doesn't work. So be aware of this.

But I understand! Because sometimes all the answers aren't so apparent in a certain art. So, us having the western mind tend to explore. And we see something that we can connect with and we compare the two teachings and find that the two arts share some of the same flavors/principles, because warriors a long time ago had to fight for a long period of time but couldn't get fatigued or they would lose their life...so the arts were refigned and made more efficient. (Say that last sentence in one breath).

My point after all that is to understand that every art teaches a certain body principle and each one is unique. So if you study one art pureley, than you embody that art pureley. If you combine arts in your body, than you can alter the arts and your taijutsu. This is not a good or a bad thing, but it can be a good or a bad thing; Wakarimasuka?

So cory, what was your original Question?
:laugh:

Sincerely,

pooh

"What do you like to do best in the world, Pooh?"
"Well" said Pooh, "what I like best-" and then he had to stop and think.
Because eating honey was a very good thing to do. There was a moment just before you began to eat it, which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

A.A. Milne :look:

Kussa
15th January 2003, 16:19
Seafu John Bracy will be in the Denver area June 21 and 22 to teach Ba Gua / taoist breathing arts. send email for details.

Kussa
15th January 2003, 16:21
above.......John Flowers

Exorcist_Fist
16th January 2003, 05:16
For clarification, there is no such thing as a grandmaster of Bagua. The title of grandmaster/standard bearer is usually tied exclusively to the Tongs, and southern shaolin martial arts. Recently, many northern style teachers have claimed "grandmaster" title as a method of marketing. In their eyes, it means that they have trained a teacher who teaches.

As for Ninpo/Bagua, Sato Kinbei knew two styles, Li Ziming taught him liang form, and Pei Xi Rong taught him Ba Xing Bagua. Pei Xi Rong learned that form from my teacher.

Since I am currently in Tokyo, and will be for the briefly forseeable future, if you happen to have a location where I can go check out the bagua/ninpo training I would be delighted.

Filip Poffe
16th January 2003, 06:06
Dear Daniel,

Tanemura Sensei uses the title Hakkesho 5th Denjin, any thoughts on that ?

All the best,

Exorcist_Fist
16th January 2003, 11:25
yeah. Hakke shou is bagua in japanese.?@5th?@is most likely his generation. If he learned from Sato, then he is most likely referring to the liang form of bagua, since he would be 7th or 8th of my form.

bagua is passed down informally, so there is not much more to it, unless he has film/etc of him performing a disciple ceremony.

Exorcist_Fist
16th January 2003, 11:48
I justed checked, denjin does indeed mean generation. It does not however imply anything beyond the distance you are from the founder of the style.

Filip Poffe
16th January 2003, 13:43
Thank you Daniel, yes indeed, Denjin means generation.
According to Tanemura Sensei, he received 5th generation "lineage holder" from Sato Kinbei Sensei.

All the best,

Exorcist_Fist
16th January 2003, 22:51
Lineage Holder is an essentially empty title, it simply means he is qualified to teach. There can be any number of lineage holder's for a system. It is however better than simply being of the 5th generation. Bagua is an extremely unregulated style. The founder had roughly 50 disciples, who then went on to create their own 50 different styles, had students who then went on to..., etc. So 150+ later, there is nothing other than lineage, and all kinds of people can make insane claims about their ability, etc.

Now, any info on where I can go check this out?

Kussa
19th April 2003, 14:59
A reminder to all of you who want to learn more about Ba Gua. Seafu John Bracy will be in the Denver area June 20-22. Ba Gua is an awsome art for development of internal energy. Mr. Bracy is a fantastic teacher and always has very cool training. Come join us in the CO Rockies for the summer solstice. Contact John Flowers for more information or www.chi-arts.com See ya at 9000ft
J Flowers

JIGOKU
23rd April 2003, 09:44
Dear buyu,

Even I have limited practical experiences with internal chinese arts I`ve been training in the Bujinkan for quite a few years.
Asking myself quite a few timeshow strong the conncetion between the Bujinkan and the internal chinese styles really is.

Take the Gyokko and Kotoh Ryu; both have already the term "chinese" in their names. And one exercise from Gyokko is that to check your proper distance during the waza you should be able to touch Tori with your fingertips....this requiers moving in circles (check the Gyokko Ryu kamae for inherent circles :=)))

And how do the Ten chi jin and the Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu book start ? With breathing exercises.
Further there is the Sanshin no kata - try to do it in slow motion and watch your breath...................and you get a smiliar feeling than with Chi kung and Tai chi......


my two cents :=))))
regards from sunny Switzerland

drizzt777
26th April 2003, 04:04
I saw a post while reading about Ba Qua and Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu having a connection. About 3 years ago when I was training in Birmingham, AL in the Bujinkan my instructor told me Gyokko Ryu was founded by a Chinese Monk who gave the system its name. He went on to talk how the kamae of the ryu were very "Chinese" in origin, such as the Shoshin No Kamae which the San Shin No Kata are practiced from. If you all recall that was the Bujinkan's year of Gyokko Ryu.
I was also told that a Gyokko Ryu soke founded Koto Ryu. Can anyone else verify this? God Bless!

In Christ,
Randall Engle
GWNBF/KJJR
Member, Fudoshin Dojo
Alabama

pooh
29th April 2003, 23:31
I saw a post while reading about Ba Qua and Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu having a connection.

I'm not so sure that Gyokko Ryu and Ba Gua have a connection. They may have a similarity in that they have a circular movement, but I don't think they have the same origin. But many if not most styles have some sort of circular movement(some more obvious than others). What I can tell about Ba Gua is that it's meathod's tend to wrap-up or entangle the opponent. I don't get that feeling at all from Gyokko Ryu. From my experience with Gyokko Ryu is that it has a circular aspect/ or way of moving, but not like Ba Gua.

such as the Shoshin No Kamae which the San Shin No Kata are practiced from

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that San Shin is practiced from "Bobi no kamae" which was borrowed from Koto Ryu. Gyokko Ryu's basic Kamae are Ichimonji, Jyumonji and Hicho. There are other Kamae in the upper scrolls's, which Hatsumi Sensei shared about three-four years ago during the year of Gyokko Ryu. Koto Ryu has Seigan, Hoko, Hira and Bobi as the fundamental kamae.

I was also told that a Gyokko Ryu soke founded Koto Ryu

From what I understand, Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu came together under one Soke many moon's ago. The Soke of Gyokko Ryu took pieces from Koto Ryu and added it to Gyokko Ryu (and vice-versa) to make it more complete. But from what I understand, Koto Ryu did not spawn from Gyokko Ryu. They just met along the way and were modified at that time in history.

Mark A. Franco, L.Ac.
Los Angeles

pooh
30th April 2003, 00:26
And how do the Ten chi jin and the Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu book start ? With breathing exercises.

The Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki was a compilation of Techniques and exercises. It was created by Hatsumi Sensei to teach the Bujinkan Curriculum. It isn't part of any scroll or school that has it's root's in chinese internal art's. It was taken from all nine schools. So, it was created when the Bujinkan was created which was within the last 50 year's (pretty recent).

Further there is the Sanshin no kata - try to do it in slow motion and watch your breath...................and you get a smiliar feeling than with Chi kung and Tai chi......

Not that there is anything wrong with what your describing, but what I am seeing is that your taking an idea than your letting your mind run away with it. Don't read to much into it. You'll lose yourself and you'll hinder your progression. If you want ot learn Chi Kung than learn Chi Kung (same goes with Tai Chi).

I'm not trying to dicourage your interest in the chinese internal art's. On the contrary, I'm trying to encourage you to learn what you want from a system that will teach you what you want to learn. If you want to learn Chi Kung or Tai Chi, than study this. If you want to learn Budo Taijutsu than study this. Trying to learn Tai Chi from San Shin is ...not the best way to learn Tai Chi; or Chi Kung for that matter.

Everything has it's purpose!

Good luck,
Mark A. Franco, L.Ac.

JIGOKU
2nd May 2003, 09:54
Mr. Franco,

Thx for your reply.
Even you didnt get the main idea of my post....
I dont know if it`s because english is not my native language....

" but what I am seeing is that your taking an idea than your letting your mind run away with it. Don't read to much into it. You'll lose yourself and you'll hinder your progression. If you want ot learn Chi Kung than learn Chi Kung (same goes with Tai Chi)."



I dont think so. I dont have ANY ambitions to see the Sanshin no kata as japanesed version of Chi Kung.
I dont know where you get your basics from but the guy I learned from, Mr. Someya (you might heared of him :=)) told me years ago:
Better do Sanshin 10 times slow and low, then 100 times fast und high..........
Maybe you try that for a while and let me know how you feel then :=))))
I was on the last US Taikai and after that I was teaching in L.A so
I got more the "lets do it fast and high" impression...:=)))))


greetings

Stefan Marcec

b.t.w: you dont know anything about me, so I dont think comments with like "You'll lose yourself and you'll hinder your progression" are appropiate ............................

kirigirisu
2nd May 2003, 16:33
Originally posted by JIGOKU
Mr. Franco,

[snip]

b.t.w: you dont know anything about me, so I dont think comments with like "You'll lose yourself and you'll hinder your progression" are appropiate ............................

Möglicherweise ist dieses ein Mißverständnis, aber ich denke "You'll lose yourself and you'll hinder your progression" auf Englisch ist ein leichte Warnung, nicht ein persönlicher Angriff.

Viel Glück

Auf bald

pooh
2nd May 2003, 19:13
Even you didnt get the main idea of my post.... I dont know if it`s because english is not my native language....

Hi Stefan,

If I misunderstood your post, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I am from Los Angeles and maybe because of what I have tended to see here I replied in the manner I did. I see many people take a concept and run with the idea to such an extreme that it take's them away from what the real training was. It clouds their judgement.

Better do Sanshin 10 times slow and low, then 100 times fast und high..........

I too try to practice like this. And I respect Someya Sensei.

I was on the last US Taikai and after that I was teaching in L.A so I got more the "lets do it fast and high" impression...:=)))))

Yes, I see this allot in dojo's as well. My teacher used to tell us not to have "Lazy Leg's" and I do the same with my student's. We try to lower our center of gravity, which help's to incorporate the legs as well as improves stability and movement. In the begining peoples leg's burn and shake, but after a while the hips open and movement becomes more agile.

As far as the "slow" aspect, I remember Hatsumi Sensei was once talking about the "San Shin" and he said that in the begining one studies the three movement's with in each "waza". But after one understand's this, one should find ten movement's, then 100 than 1,000...I believe as well, that slow does help find the intricate pieces which help to undestand San Shin and it's movement.

Stefan, I wish you all the best and I again want to apologize for the misunderstanding. If we meet meet up either in Japan or at a Tai Kai, the first round is on me.

Be Well,
Mark A. Franco, L.Ac.

JIGOKU
4th May 2003, 20:52
Mark,

No bad feelings about that - well language and communication are here for clarify problems and solve them isnt it ?
No need to apologize here - I didnt take it as insult.....
Well concerning the first round - I remember that :=))))

Take care

Regards

from surprisingly warm Switzerland

juke
22nd May 2006, 19:37
:)
I was just searching around the net and found that Sato Kinbei was a 4th generation lineage holder of Ba-Gua (not to mention proficient in other internal arts). I don'tremember what Hatsumi sensei's connection with Sato Kinbei is, or Tanemura sensei's connection, but I know there is one.

So the questions are:
-Does anyone know if these internal arts influence the x-kans taijutsu?
-Has anyone specifically trained under Sato Kinbei's dojo with chinese internal arts?
-Has either Tanemura or Hatsumi ever spoken about these internal arts and their principles in relation to taijutsu?
-Does anyone have any history on Takamatsu and one of the internal arts? (please share if you do!)
-Does anyone have any first hand experience with these internal arts and taijutsu together? (I would love to hear your experiences!)

any input would be great!!!

Cory LeistikowHI,YES BAGUA AND NINJUTSU DO SHARE SOME IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES .The stealth walking methods of ninjutsu mirror the walking methods in bagua.I have studied with a taoist group in New York who were very adept in bagua and the other big internal martial arts tai chi,and hsing-i.I learned some great walking practices from them.The bagua walking goes back thousands of years.Initially, it was a spiritual practice done in taoist temples.Bagua is a new martial art compared to ninjutsu.It became public in the late 1700s to early 1800s.It is odd that ninjutsu is so much older;but they share similar strategies and philosophies.THE STORY GOES THAT DONG HAI CHUAN WHO IS CREDITED AS BAGUAS CREATOR WAS INJURED FROM A BATTLE HE CAME ACROSS A COUPLE OF TAOISTS AND THEY SAVED HIS LIFE THROUGH TAOIST HEALING ARTS AND TAUGHT HIM TAOIST WALKING.DONG WAS ALREADY A MASTER OF SEVERAL SHAOLIN MARTIAL ARTS AND COMBINED HIS EXISTING MARTIAL KNOWLEDGE WITH BAGUA WALKING.The in and yo of ninjutsu are also taoist.they are japanese translations of yin and yang.The five element theory of ninjutsu is also a pure taoist teaching:wood,earth,fire,metal,water.The philosophy of using the body as a weapon is also some thing both arts share.Bagua has a very chinese look to it.ninjutsu defies categorization in how it looks.It has so many various influences intertwined as one art.I hope I OFFERED A LITTLE INSIGHT TO what you are asking.

juke
22nd May 2006, 19:58
Yes, I too see the need of making budo taijutsu "one's own art".

I have a wide range of martial arts backgrounds, but for the past 7 years I have been studying with the Bujinkan. I have a good friend who studies hsing-i ba-gua and tai ji, and we have been good friends for 4 years, so our topic of conversation more often than not turns to martial arts and philosophy. We both came from very different viewpoints on the whole "which is better: internal/external" debate and over the past few years we have come to middle grounds and mutual acceptance/understanding which led to both of our interests in each other's arts.

I was enrolled in TCM school in LA and as a requirement, had to study taiqi and qi-gong. Never did my world shift like it did after steady practice. The problem has been how to integrate it with Taijutsu. For most chinese internal arts, there were certain sets of qi-gong/nei-gong for the art that "fit" that art. they were specificly designed to that system of moving. So my concern has been "how do you develop these internal energies so you taijutsu becomes better" I fugured if you do tai-qi, your taijutsu will start to look like tai-qi, and if hsing-i your taijutsu will start to look like hsing-i. I want my taijutsu to look like Hatsumi's!!! that is what Bujinkan Taijutsu is to me! ...Granted, we have very different body types, so we will inherently move differently, but It can be Bujinkan taijutsu.

So this is where Ba-qua comes in. (not to mention I am fascinated with the i-ching) Dong hai chuan (the founder of ba-gua-zhang) didn't have a certain "system" of ba-qua. It was a mixture of some taoist circle walking meditation(qi-gong) and other arts he picked up prior to the taoist stuff. IT was only after he practiced walking in circles for years, that he integrated the palm strikes from his earlier styles. The most amazing thing about his teaching was that he only took students who were already masters at an art. He then took the principles of his circle walking and fit it to each individual student. That is where the many different styles of ba-gua come from. It is the circle walking qigong (and single/double palm change) mixed with other chinese arts which are now, chen-ting hua style, yin fu style etc.

So I have been very interested in ba-gua and these principles and how it can make my taijutsu better(though I do believe that just proper training with a good teacher will give an average student enough for a lifetime) but I got really excited when I found that Sato Kinbei was a 4th generation lineage holder of Ba-gua. So I wonder if Hatsumi sensei studied some specificly internal nei-gong, or Takamatsu sensei.. I have heard that he studied chinese styles and even taught them. If he did study them, did those principles get ingrained in his taijutsu and get passed dow to us? These teachers were able to master so much (takamatsu sensei/sato kinbei/hatsumi sensei) , it is amazing

So it brings me back to, will ba-gua help or hurt my taijutsu. I believe it would change my body, and my taijutsu would therefore change. But who knows...maybe hatsumi sensei sees something I don't(maybe??? I am sure he does ;) )maybe these internal arts change the body/actually morph the body in a certain way . I know Hatsumi wants us to be natural, maybe qi-gong isn't natural....who knows!!!

I am interested to hear others views... sorry if I have too many run-on sentences... just get excited sometimes...

Cory Leistikow
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

p.s. Eric, you said you had some tai-qi practice... my little exposre to it definately made me more aware of my spine and its connection to heaven and earth...not to mention how it changed my understanding of power from the legs(earth) .... I am interested in how your taijutsu has changed with those principles....also do you have any standing practice??? I have started to take the idea of standing post, and instead hold a kamae... get in ichimonji and sink, relax, stack the spine, hips open, sacrum dropped, head suspended and mind in the dan-tien, etc.... also just like standing wu-ji but shizen instead (not much difference in my opinion)... thinks like that any thoughts?
HI,wow I never thought about it ;but it is very possible that Takamatsu studied chi-kung when he went to China early in his life before teaching soke.I recall soke mentioning it in one of his books.He said something about how Takamatsu went to China to test his skill and to maybe find a teacher who could develop his martial skill even further.He could have just learned chi-kung from someone.It is believed that Morihei UEshiba went to China also and learned chi-kung.It is awfully strange that he went to China and he comes back to Japan and suddenly has this incredible martial skill.People who have written about studying with him personally say his skill bordered on the supernatural.They would carry him in on a stretcher near the end of his life when he was around 80 and he would gather his chi get up and throw students around like ragdolls.then he would get back on the stretcher and they would carry him out.

niten ninja
22nd May 2006, 20:17
HI,wow I never thought about it ;but it is very possible that Takamatsu studied chi-kung when he went to China early in his life before teaching soke.I recall soke mentioning it in one of his books.He said something about how Takamatsu went to China to test his skill and to maybe find a teacher who could develop his martial skill even further.He could have just learned chi-kung from someone.

Without any evidence it is a bit hard to make these assumptions.


It is believed that Morihei UEshiba went to China also and learned chi-kung.It is awfully strange that he went to China and he comes back to Japan and suddenly has this incredible martial skill.People who have written about studying with him personally say his skill bordered on the supernatural.They would carry him in on a stretcher near the end of his life when he was around 80 and he would gather his chi get up and throw students around like ragdolls.then he would get back on the stretcher and they would carry him out.

Actually in one of his articles on Aikido Journal Ellis Amdur did a quite good section on why Ueshiba couldn't have really done very much training in China. Seems he actually wasn't there for very long, and was travelling about so much he wouldn't have had a chance to properly learn anything.

JIGOKU
22nd May 2006, 22:53
Well its been a while with this thread..
The last three years I`ve been studying internal arts, Yang Tai chi chuan, Ba gua chuan and mainly Hsing I chuan under a very competent chinese teacher who used to be professor for wu shu at the wu shu university in Shandong, China.
After 20 years in the Bujinkan (I left two years ago) I would dare to say that I am competent enough to judge if there are any direct influences from Internal arts into Bujinkan Budo.
The Ba gua chuan I`ve expierenced first hand nothing in common with the Bujinkan I studied during 20 years (10 years travelling regulary to Japan). My teacher stressed the "mud walking" for hours and I can telly you the way I expierienced is totally different body dynamics...the same goes for Tai chi chuan. My primary study Hsing I chuan uses a concept that is vaguley similar to Bujinkan body dynamics, well very vaguely.....
during my years in the Bujinkan the whole concept of internal energy wasnt stressed at any point - not even breathing ....

Takamatsu in China...well I dunno....many rumours, like the whole history of the Bujinkan - a mixture of legends, stories and as I said rumours.....

Probably we will never know -

Cheers