Differences between Muso Shinden and Muso Jikiden Ryu?

[fifthchamber]

Hello all,
You will have to forgive my ignorance on this one..and the fact that this will most certainly have been covered here previously.
As an outsider I am intrigued at the similarity between the Muso Shinden Ryu and the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and their respective syllabi...I am aware that the two schools originate at the same source and diverged from a central line (The Shinden Ryu being restored by Nakayama Hakudo more recently)...I know this, and there is PLENTY of info online about it, but I would really like to hear other peoples ideas on the need for the two seperate Ryu teaching essentially the same techniques ie; take as an example the kata 'Shinobi' from both Ryu's 'Okuden Tachiai' sections...Or is it that there are differences in HOW they are taught that are big enough to seperate the two teachings?
Forgive me for the question...I have only seen som of the two schools waza once and once (again) now on video and this may account for the question but it DID seem to me to be the same technique between the two schools and I was interested in the need for the two schools to be taught seperately...Rather than one being classed as a 'Ha' say.
Maybe there is alternate knowledge that is passed down (In the Densho or as Kuden maybe) through each school?
I do not have a clue here and wold deeply appreciate any insights offered to me...Thank you.
Abayo...:wave:

[Senjojutsu]

Ben,

To kick off the responses I will focus on the Shoden level set as humbly as possible, for many in E-Budo are more qualified to respond than I:

Different Naming Conventions, Seiza waza

MJER vs. MSR
1. Mae vs. Shohattô
2. Migi vs. Satô
3. Hidari vs. Utô
4. Ushiro vs. Atari-tô
5a. Yaegaki Omote vs. Inyô Shintai
5b. Yaegaki Ura vs. Gyaku Inyô Shintai
6. Ukenagashi vs. Ryûtô
7. Kaishaku vs. Juntô
8. Tsukekomi vs. Gyakutô
9. Tsukikage vs. Shinchûtô or Seichutô
10. Oikaze vs. Korantô
11. Nukiuchi vs. Battô

Oe Masamichi, 17th Grandmaster, renamed the series to what MJER sees as the nomenclature.
MJER knows eleven distinct waza, with one variant.
MSR sees twelve in this series, with Gyaku Inyo Shintai typically sequenced after Koranto.

NOTO

Although both pratice with the katana edge up in the obi, MSR returns the sword into the saya with a more circular hip motion (legacy of a tachi style mount). MSER's noto is more linear.

Points of inflection within techniques

The fruit tomato pronunciation; Just as you say tOmato, and I say tomAto, the inflection is slightly different. You will be able to identify the technique - but will notice the variations:

An example:

In MSJ Seichutô there is more of a leaping forward action coming up from seiza and a person goes down onto their knee while performing the noto, as compared with how MJER's Tsukikage is done.

[Enfield]

Originally posted by Senjojutsu
MJER vs. MSR
5b. Yaegaki Ura vs. Gyaku Inyô Shintai
11. Nukiuchi vs. Battô
In the dojo I attend (MSR), these are called inyoshintai kae ('variant') and nukiuchi.

[Brian Dunham]

MJER and MSR are really two branches of the same tradition,which has been the case since their 11th generation. Nakayama Hakudo did change the name of the Shimomura-ha to Muso Shinden Ryu, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that he restored it. also, there is some evidence that 'Muso Shinden' was used in the name at some point long ago.
As far as technical differences, I can offer my own view as a MSR practitioner.
-In MJER, the sageo is tied to the hakama himo on the left hip. In MSR, it is tied on the right.
-In MSR, the kensen is not allowed to drop behind the head before kirioroshi(as it is in MJER). Kirioroshi is begun with the kensen up at about 60 degrees as in Jodan no kamae.
-The most noticable difference is probably noto, with MJER keeping the ha up throughout the action, which appears to be more linear as mentioned above. MSR is much different,with the first part across the front of the body (with the ha facing forward), and then moving to the right front after the kissaki is in the koiguchi (also turning the ha up at this point). In some respects, noto (in MSR) is the opposite of yokoichimonji nukitsuke.
-The two curricculum are structured the same, but there are numerous technical differences in many of the kata. There seems to be the greatest difference at the Shoden level,less at Chuden,and only minor differences at the Okuden level. There also seems to be some differences in the applications of some of the kata. For the most part, though, you could easily tell that they are variations of the same tradition.

Regards,
Brian Dunham

[Goon Jhuen Weng]

What about the tachi uchi no kurai portion of the ryu? From what little I've seen so far, it appears that there are differences in the way the techniques are done as well. In fact, it appears that MJER does tachi uchi no kurai more often than MSR practitioners as well.

[Chidokan]

I practise the tanimura ha rather more than shimomura ha in MJER, although I have been shown both, and will probably learn a bit more shimomura ha next month on my visit to Japan. There are different emphasis areas in each, for instance the posture for shimomura is more han-mi than tanemura, the saya is inverted on the draw, and therefore the noto has to be different. To seperate them I do the shimomura ha as kae waza in one go, as I am not good enough yet to do them as a full set without influencing the way I practise tanemura ha.
I have also seen two variants for tachi uchi no kurai as well. MJER contains 3 levels, two of which are done from kneeling. This appears to be down to locality and individual teaching. It may also be that I have failed to spot the similarity again!!
Also in Japan T.U.N.K. is only taught from 5/6th dan onwards. This may explain why you do not see it much over here in the U.K.!

Tim Hamilton
U.K.