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autrelle
3rd April 2002, 02:22
hello everyone. i was very recently in an altercation that could have ended very ugly for me. i was in a barfight grappling with one person. he was in my "guard" and i immediately put him in an arm break, but the moment before his arm would have broken, eight of his friends jumped on me, trying to restrain me and beat me up. i managed to continue fighting them all from this position until my sole comrade pulled me from underneath and then we fought all of them together until they all gave up the thought of continuing. my question is does anyone train for this sort of 'worst case' scenario fighting on a regular basis? i am an aikidoka primarily, but i also dabble in grappling, wingchun, and kali to round out my arsenal. i have heard stories of aiki practitioners training with 5-6 people restraining them to ground, but i have never had any contact wtih this sort of practice. but i know from having just done it to protect myself that it must be possible. i emergered (knock on wood) unscathed. are there any modern or traditional practices for this sort of scenario. and yes, i know that one should try to stay on their feet, i want to know what to do after i screw up!

thank you and truly

thumpanddump
3rd April 2002, 03:33
my question is does anyone train for this sort of 'worst case' scenario fighting on a regular basis?

Autrelle, Good question!! Firstly, well done on protecting yourself!! I too believe that dabbling in this and that helps to complete your knowledge (with all due respect to my respective instructors).

I train in this type of thing 'outside' the normal confines of the Dojo I practice in. I apply what I have learned and experiement with ideas with friends, pratice drills, research 'mindset' type issues related to combat, and most importantly (IMO) I visualise.


i have heard stories of aiki practitioners training with 5-6 people restraining them to ground, but i have never had any contact wtih this sort of practice.

I guess I've 'heard' this type of story as well. But I guess training for it is a feasible and yes - realisitic option.


protect myself that it must be possible. i emergered (knock on wood) unscathed

Doing what it takes with whatever it takes is my idea of self-defence. I don't believe in 'stylising' self-defence so that you resemble a monkey, dragon or crane in the heat of a real controntation.



are there any modern or traditional practices for this sort of scenario. and yes, i know that one should try to stay on their feet, i want to know what to do after i screw up!

Hey I know what you mean!! Even the best fighters can trip over (literally). Maybe try The System. Also, you can possible apply your BJJ body/hip/armplacement movement drills to evade and protect yourself. You can even try Vale Tudo style practice to aid in protection 'when the ship hits the sand'. That way you can protect yourself momentarily, evade then crawl outta there and come up boxing.

(My thoughts anyway)
George Ricard

Charlie Kondek
3rd April 2002, 15:50
That about says everything I could've. I don't have much practical (read: out of the dojo) experience in this area, but I did want to thank you for sharing and congratulate you on not getting hurt.

Roger Lake
3rd April 2002, 18:11
You fought eight guys and remained unscathed? My hat's off to you. Was this a serious fight, or just a bunch of guys pushing each other around? Forgive my tone, I don't want to sound as if I am doubting you, but you know on these public forums people embellish the truth very often. I am only asking from an educational standpoint. I am just trying to make sure this is not another "superiority of Brazilian ju-jutsu" thread.

Humbly,

Roger Lake

autrelle
3rd April 2002, 21:55
a most serious fight my friend! i bit, poked at eyes, pinched, pulled at lips, bent fingers backward-if it was in my grasp, it got hurt! and when we got to standing fisticuffs, it was even more brutal. pool cues and everything. and likei said, i am an aikidoka (8 years), not BJJ. that is my one complaint that BJJ does not address multiple attackers while grappling with one. i feel lucky more than anything that i was able to maintain my composure, stamina, and zanshin the whole time. i am still a bit sore at this day, but at the time, the training took care of once again. thanks to everyone that replied so far. i am still looking for a regime to practice under these conditions.

truly

autrelle
4th April 2002, 23:17
that is to say that i used a pool cue on a few of them , not that i was attacked by right guys with pool cues. besides, i am not here to tout my real or imagined prowess, but to have the issue of training addressed. so nanny-nanny to you my friend (i'm being friendly, please no flames!).

truly

George Ledyard
5th April 2002, 22:23
Absolutely the best stuff I have seen for training is Mr. Vasiliyev's Systema tapes. He has a set on fighting from the ground which has an absolutely fantastic segment on multiple standing attackers. I have been trained in a couple tactical ground fighting systems through my Defensive Tactics training but this is the most effective system I have seen. I am fifty and not in peak shape and yet this system, of all the ones I have encountered, seems to be the most natural and energy efficient. My students and I have worked on this stuff and it would be quite effective. They also have a tape on what they call Mass Attack. It is also a "must have" for any person interested in real street self defense or defensive tactics. This isn't just the kind of randori, multiple attacker type training we prepare for in our usual martial arts training, this is about being in a hostile crowd, completely surrounded by people. It is wild stuff and I have never seen anyone teaching anything like it anywhere else.

Systema Website (http://www.russianmartialart.com)

James Williams
5th April 2002, 22:50
Having trained with both Mikhail and Vladimir I concur with George's assesement in regards to Systema.

kenjgood
6th April 2002, 04:48
Chiming in again....

Goto: http://www.russianmartialarts.com

Get the Fighting from the Ground Tapes, Mass Attacks Tape (and just about anything else you can afford).

As soon as you see the rational, principles, and techniques you will undoubtably say "That makes perfect sense". Systema was breed in a mulitple adversary environment and it is well suited for a wide variety of modern situations.

BJJ tended to move my mindset to be sastisfied to tie up too much. Not knocking BJJ, I think is has much too offer, but stepping back for a moment, the stradegy of close the gap, takedown, establish position, submit is fantastic in a 1 v 1 with no weapons involved. Outside of that paradigm, it falls short in my opinon.

Kit LeBlanc
6th April 2002, 23:48
Ken, James...

Okay, you gotta explain this to me....

http://www.russianmartialart.com/bin/loadpage.cgi?id+products.html

WHAT the heck is going on in that gun disarm Mpeg? The first kick and the guy (pretty conveniently) letting the gun fly? Is that what we are supposed to believe would happen in real life?

What the heck is that last one where Vlad drops back, rolls on the ground, and then does the little thing with his feet to disarm while again, VERY conveniently in that case, the would be shooter stands there stock still and doesn't move the weapon or his arm? What gives?

I realize that it is training and/or demonstration, ya gotta feel it to believe it, etc. but this just seems ridiculous. I mean I literally said "you have got to be kidding me!" out loud when I saw that last one. We all know a real shooter would simply pump an entire magazine into anyone foolish enough to drop onto the ground at his feet, and attempt a disarm with his FEET, yet.... please tell me there is something else going on here.

Same with the groundfighting Mpeg..

What is the deal with the guy walking around on his knees while the three guys are moving in slow motion, and not bothering to attack even when they are within a few feet and BEHIND him, or attack him in a group?

Guys, I know you are for real, and I am NOT trying to be insulting. But I trust that I can speak my mind without you taking offense...that's part of what being in the "operator" community is all about, isn't it? Having myself had a taste of reality, and training in different methods which are supposedly geared for it, and having a pretty good idea of what to look for, I just can't accept this at face value.

I get to feel Don Angier stuff next weekend. After that I want to do a Systema seminar...I generally have a pretty open mind but I can tell ya I am going in a major skeptic on the Systema stuff...I hope I am proven wrong.

(BTW, been following the Low Kneeling stuff over on Surefire and in the Strategic Solutions column...Good Stuff!)

Kit

James Williams
7th April 2002, 02:37
Kit,

You have got to get out of the house more. it is too bad that you did not make the San Diego seminar at my dojo with Vladimir. Are you going to the Aiki Expo? Both Ken and i will be there and we could work some at that time, if not I do expect to be in Portland this month and even if Darren Laur can't train with us we can still have some fun. And yes Vladimir is better than he looks on video.

James

kenjgood
7th April 2002, 10:08
Hey Kit.

First of all, I AM NOT a SYSTEMA teacher, spokesman, or have any real working knowlege of the "System".

What I will say, I will say from my firsthand experience with Vladimir contrasted and compared with all of my other martial arts training/military training.

Vladimir's ability is not reflected in the videos. The web clips probably do more harm than good for those trying to see what is going on with Systema. His whole video collection resides on the “home movie” scale in terms of production quality. But, you can’t have mine…:D

On the tape series, Vladimir makes mistakes, misses stuff and just laughs it off. He lets his students demo and make mistakes. He doesn’t care. I like it. After meeting him, training with him, you get the strong sense that he is totally secure in his abilities and totally humble at the same time. He does things really slow on video (and at demos) so you can see it. I saw him remove the governor on his engine a few times and he is startling fast, because he extremely loose, efficient, uses natural motion and the natural path of energy in all his movements. Guys were on the ground writhing in pain, hit multiple times not even knowing what happened….Observers on the sidelines were in the same boat in terms of “What just happened?”

He is very, very, very, very good. You will have a hard time touching him, when you do, you will have a hard time damaging him, and he hits like a couple of freight trains without noticeable effort. I felt a couple of love taps. Other more proficient students were used as ukes and when he hit them from only inches away, I was feeling the vibration through the floor 20’ away. I mean these guys can dish it out and take it to.

As good as he is, I overheard him say, "I am pretty good at this stuff, but my teacher is really good"

Back to the Gun Disarms. Some of the things he does, I would not do period. One I don't have the flexibility he does and number two, some of it is not what I currently consider to be the "optimal" way to handle it. Like any other approach, I will glean the useful, trash what I don't like and would use. That being said, I would be real careful about waving any weapons in his direction.

Fighting from the Ground. As far as not wanting to attack, I can relate. After getting on the wrong end of his tools a couple of times, I found myself not wanting to wade in anymore. I was “lovingly” pushed in the back and back into the fray by one of his students…everybody got a good laugh out of it.

But that is not what is being depicted in the video. Vladimir, the guy on his knees has exceptional spatial awareness, period. He threads his way around guys all around him, regardless of what they do or don’t do like I have never seen before.

The DRILLS that Systema offers are remarkably well thought out to bring out and cultivate the ability to “connect” one opponent to other. The DRILLS and CONDITIONING practices give you kinesthetic awareness that allow folks to do things that I really could not believe could be done, until now. All I can say is what your were proposing: attack as group, attack from behind, etc….easier said than done when he is on the floor.

I know I am sounding like a Systema commercial. I’ve only begun my exposure to this art, but I am blown-away with the treasure that is actually there. Ask Don Agier's students what they think of his skills.

You skeptism is healthy, but in this case unfounded. Don’t take my word for it. Go to a seminar or his school in Montreal yourself and question away, engage away, give him or some of his students your best shot.….Let me know how you make out!

Now, let's make an agreement. You stop questioning Systema until you go to a mulitple day seminar or Vladimir's school. For my part, I agree to not to kick you ass the next time I see you with a flying gundisarm I learned on a web video....

Kit LeBlanc
7th April 2002, 18:19
Originally posted by kenjgood

You skeptism is healthy, but in this case unfounded. Don’t take my word for it. Go to a seminar or his school in Montreal yourself and question away, engage away, give him or some of his students your best shot.….Let me know how you make out!

Now, let's make an agreement. You stop questioning Systema until you go to a mulitple day seminar or Vladimir's school. For my part, I agree to not to kick you ass the next time I see you with a flying gundisarm I learned on a web video....

I will remain a skeptic until I can feel this for myself. Considering you have just noted that the gun disarms are not what you would try, I think there is reason enough for skepticism. That is not to say that he doesn't teach a lot of good stuff, either, it simply means that I have been around martial arts long enough to know to take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt.

I am like you guys...he has gonna have to do this stuff to me in a non-cooperative force on force situation (let's just say I will try to arrest him and he can fight back...) before I will believe it. I have no problem taking lumps, indeed I will consider it an honor if this is indeed real.

I accept the agreement. Dang I wish James was coming up to Portland. Otherwise, I gotta get down to see you guys when Vlad is next in town.

Matt MacKenzie
14th April 2002, 19:30
Hi Kit.

Defineatly go train with Vlad when he comes into your area. All of your questions will be addressed...Just be prepared when you ask a question to be a participant in the answer! :smash:

Seriously though, I'm a student of Vlad's in Toronto and I can guarantee that you'll benefit from training with him.

Let us know how it goes! Any questions you may have about him, or Systema, I'd be happy to try and answer.