Muso

[Soulend]

I have recently read that Muso means 'dream vision', thus it's use in many ryu names- to indicate divine transmission. Yet, I have seen Muso defined as "unequalled", as in Muso Jikiden Eishin- Ryu. Are both these definitions correct? They appear to be written with different kanji, but perhaps this is just me eyes...

[fifthchamber]

Hi David,
I know 'Muso' (As used in MJER Iaido and also Shinto Muso Ryu Jo Jutsu and others) does indeed mean 'Unequalled'...It was sometimes given as a sign that the Ryu-so was favored by the Emperor himself after he had been shown the Ryu's techniques in person..
As far as the 'Dream' meaning, I personally haven't seen this usage for the meaning...Often it is shown in a Keizu ('lineage chart') as 'Tenshin Sho' before the Ryu founders name (As in Shinto Ryu) But I haven't seen 'muso' used like this personally...If the two sets of Kanji were different then it is more than likely that the two meanings were not the same of course.
Is there a way to let us see the Kanji that you found? That is the best way to find out for sure in these situations..Or tell us which Ryu you saw the Kanji used in to let me look them up for myself.
Hope I cast SOME light on the issue...But doubt it!:cry:
Abayo.:wave:

[Soulend]

Thanks Ben..seems you're answering all my questions today :)

Let me refer back to the same book I mentioned in my nagamaki post: 'Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan', edited by Diane Skoss. David Hall, a practicioner of Shindo Muso Ryu (and an ordained Tendai Buddhist priest!), in his article on Marishiten, states that Shindo Muso Ryu literally means 'Shinto Dream Vision Tradition'. He points out that the term 'Muso Shinden' appears more than thirty times in the listing of ryu names in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, suggesting that all these ryu were considered to be divinely transmitted. No mention is made of the "Unequalled" definition.

Unfortunately, the ol scanner isn't hooked up, so I'm not sure how I could put up the kanji.

[Vile]

–²‘z Musou = Dream, Vision

–³‘o Musou = Peerless, Unparalleled

’¼“` Jikiden = Direct Transmission

You can see the kanji using IExplorer: go to view -> encoding (-> more) -> japanese (auto-select). I don't think you need the Asian language support installed just to see the kanji above correctly..

There's two different versions of Musou (and Jikiden just for an example). I believe Musou Shinden ryuu usually (at least we do and I've seen only that being used) uses the prior Musou meaning "dream" and Musou Jikiden Eishin ryuu uses the latter. One possibility here is a sort of a pun; using different kanji that are read the same way thus aknowledging the roots of the school, but at the same time showing a new innovation.

I'm under the impression also that Shindou (Shintou) Musou ryuu joujutsu also uses the "dream" kanji usually. I didn't find Shindou Musou ryuu joujutsu using the "peerless" kanji with a quick look on BRDJ (but it really was a quick look and my Japanese isn't that good), but I did find Shintou Musou ryuu using peerless kanji that was listed as teaching kenjutsu.

Hope this was helpfull,

Mikko Vilenius

[Soulend]

Awesome..thanks Vile.

[fifthchamber]

Hi all,
As soon as I switched the PC off yesterday realised that I was wrong about what I had said here...'Muso' type one means 'unequalled' and uses two Kanji the first of which is the 'Non, nothing, empty' type of Kanji for 'Mu' used fairly commonly. This 'Muso' is the one found in the 'common' Kanji for the Eishin Ryu (MJER).
The second is the type used by Ryu like the Shinto Muso Ryu which has the meaning of 'dream, vision'...This type is also used in the Muso Shinden Ryu among others..
Sorry...I know that Mikko answered the same but I was annoyed with myself for the bad post so decided to put my answer up again..All the other information is still relevant however..Regarding the Emperor's giving of the title to certain teachers etc..
Gomen nasai..
Abayo.

[Andrei Arefiev]

Hello,

Though Mr. Vilenius and Mr. Sharples said about everything there was to say, I thought I'd add my 62 kopeks :)

Some sources on MJER history that I've seen suggest that it was shogun Toyotomi Hideyoshi who bestowed the title of Musou ("peerless") on Hasegawa Eishin and his iai style. Before him the Musou in the title was usually written with the characters "dream vision". Shinmusou Hayashizaki-ryu and (I think) Hayashizaki Musou-ryu retain this spelling.

As if two versions of "Musou" were not enough, there are two versions I've seen of writing "Musou Jikiden" using either the simplified kanji (those that Mr. Vilenius posted) or the older, less common versions for "sou" (™Ô) and "den" (™B). Interestingly, they're only used in pairs (either both simple, or both more traditional).

Best,

[Vile]

Thank you for the information Mr. Arefiev,

Takada Gakudou sensei, who teaches Musou Shinden ryuu in Yokohama and visits us here in Finland once or twice a year, uses that older version on "den" in Musou Shinden ryuu. He uses the contemporary "sou" kanji though.

-Mikko Vilenius

[Vile]

Originally posted by Andrei Arefiev
Some sources on MJER history that I've seen suggest that it was shogun Toyotomi Hideyoshi who bestowed the title of Musou ("peerless") on Hasegawa Eishin and his iai style.

Hmmm.. there must be some mistake here as Toyotomi Hideyoshi died in 1598. Hayashizaki Jinsuke Minamoto no Shigenobu died circa 1620 and Hasegawa Eishin, who in turn inherited Shigenobu's tradition -- and was the nanadai souke counting from Shigenobu -- lived later in the 17th century.

[fifthchamber]

Hi all,
The story that I heard about this was that the 'Muso' title ('Unequalled'..) was that it was first used by Hasegawa Eishin to rename his school..The older Ryu setup by Hayashizaki Jinsuke was named the 'Muso Shinden Ryu' (Using 'Dream/vision' as Muso) or 'Muso Hayashizaki Ryu' and so is not the source for the 'unequalled' honour.."Flashing Steel" By Shimabukuro Masayuki DOES claim that the 'unequalled' name was given to Hasegawa Eishin by Hideyoshi..However this is NOT possible..The dates do not work out.
I have to guess therefore that the title was given not by Hideyoshi but by by either the Shogun or the Emperor at the time of Eishin control of the school...This makes more sense datewise and means that the book is only slightly out with the statement.
Any MJER or Shinden Ryu students care to offer the Kuden or info that they have? Seems to be the only answer here..:smilejapa
Abayo...

[Ben Bartlett]

Actually, Hayashizaki Jinsuke named it Shimmei Muso Ryu. His followers then started calling it Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu. The students of Eishin then renamed the school Eishin Ryu, and then later it broke into the Tanimura-ha and the Shimomura-ha, which became known as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu, respectively. The kanji for muso in Shimmei Muso Ryu was indeed the kanji for dream (if I remember correctly). The kanji for Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, however, is for unparalleled. So to answer the original question, I'd say that yes, both these definitions are correct, it just depends on which kanji is being used.

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Vile


Hmmm.. there must be some mistake here as Toyotomi Hideyoshi died in 1598. Hayashizaki Jinsuke Minamoto no Shigenobu died circa 1620 and Hasegawa Eishin, who in turn inherited Shigenobu's tradition -- and was the nanadai souke counting from Shigenobu -- lived later in the 17th century.

You're right...I had read that Hideyoshi bestowed the title Muso Ken (Sword Without Equal) on Hasegawa Eishin, but it didn't dawn on me that this would be impossible, considering the dates. This site (http://www.seibukanbudo.org/english/iaidoeng.htm ) says that Eishin probably didn't even learn the art until the first part of the 18th century...:confused:

[Andrei Arefiev]

Hello,

I almost forgot I posted here and only stopped by again by chance :)


Originally posted by Vile


Hmmm.. there must be some mistake here as Toyotomi Hideyoshi died in 1598. Hayashizaki Jinsuke Minamoto no Shigenobu died circa 1620 and Hasegawa Eishin, who in turn inherited Shigenobu's tradition -- and was the nanadai souke counting from Shigenobu -- lived later in the 17th century.

That seems to be right, agreed. However, it is my understanding that very few of the dates early in the history of MJER/MSR are really well established as facts (and not all of them in the recent history are: I'll post a couple of questions in the Sword Arts forum). It might have been "Flashing Steel" that I saw this statement in, but at least one other source ("Kim's Big Book of Iaido" by Kim Taylor who is a member on E-Budo) seems to support it by stating that Eishin became head of the tradition in 1610 (and could well have been practicing by 1598). I'm afraid, it will be hard to confirm.

A couple of days ago I had the opportunity to watch a video recording of a Tokyo Taikai (not sure which year) iaido performance (distributed by Tozando) and was quite surprised by the number of styles that were represented and had parts of "Muso", "Shinden", "Jikiden", "Hasegawa", "Eishin" and "Shigenobu" in their names. Mostly, though, one can recognize them as MJER/MSR and most often tell which one, although all had some "departures" (no, I don't mean it literally) from what I've seen before (very little). Interestingly, there was one "Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu" that had "Muso" spelt as "–²‘o", something that I saw for the first time. Any ideas?

Best,