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Soulend
4th April 2002, 00:00
I think some of this may have been addressed in the 'Origin of Iai arts' thread in the past, but for some reason I can't pull it up. Liam Keeley of the Tatsumi Ryu and Hunter Armstrong have raised some questions for me:

Seiza: Outside of participating in the tea ceremony, men who were not priests do not appear to have sat in seiza for any reason. Mostly the samurai would be in anza or agura. Why the seiza waza?

Tatehiza: Normally assumed while wearing armor, this would seem to be a battlefield adaptation of batto (or iaijutsu). However, if a samurai was "relaxing" in tatehiza, what was the possibility of attack? Hunter Armstrong: 'The bushi in armor would only draw his tachi (this term is used here as a generic reference to the sword) if he had the time and distance to effectively do so; if a fast draw was neccesary it was probably already too late for the longer blade, and he would resort to shorter weapons and grappling.' Also, few ryu seem to include iai in armor (the Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi-ryu is one), so it would not seem that this was considered a vital skill.

Walking: As a self-defense system for the samurai being suddenly attacked, Mr. Armstrong makes the point that if suddenly attacked in an unattentive state, in the feudal era or today, the defender would most likely lose. One of the vital points of heiho is to never allow oneself to be surprised. However, I note that the Tatsumi Ryu has integrated their walking iai into their kenjutsu very well.

The point seems to be that solo iaijutsu or batto is only a very minor part of swordsmanship, and that solo iai practice is of negligible value for either combative preparation or for 'moral' or 'spiritual' use (morality is affected by the interaction of people-how does solo practice relate to this?). Also that kyudo has more in common with iai than does kenjutsu, as it is often practised solo..thus no human feedback and no appreciation of maai or of timing.

Thoughts anyone?

Scott Irey
4th April 2002, 00:25
Mr. Craik,

This topic has been discussed to no end it seems. That being the case I will not continue the long tradition of trying to justify why we do what we do in the Tosa sword traditions. I will however say this:

There are very specific reasons as to why iai is practiced from both seiza and tatehiza in the Tosa sword traditions (MJER, MSR) There are also very particular reasons as to why iai was a focal point of the sword traditions of the Tosa samurai. If you (not specifically you Mr. Craik, but anyone who is curious about seiza, tatehiza or iai in general) really want to know why we do what we do, then find a qualified instructor of either art (and I mean qulaified) practice with said instructor for a considerable amount of time, and should you prove diligent and sincere you will probably be let in on the reasons concerning the big "why".

Some information has to be paid for... one way or another :)

Soulend
4th April 2002, 03:10
I would be more than happy to take you up on that, Mr. Irey, if there were a reputable iai sensei within 100 miles of here. The closest I know of is Mr. Carl Long up in PA. It isn't my intention to suggest anything here, and certainly not to disparage anyone's tradition. I just am trying to understand how everything fits together in a historical context. As Mr. Armstrong has trained in the classical martial arts for more than 20 years (Shindo Muso Ryu jojutsu, Shinkage Ryu heiho, Owari Kanryu sojutsu) and it was he that made these points, I reckoned that they were probably quite valid questions to ask. But if it is a dead horse, or the 'specific reasons' are too difficult to explain, simply disregard.

Finny
4th April 2002, 12:13
G'day
I think the point with regards to the morality/spirituality aspect of iai is that it forms a sort of meditative training for the bugei, and to argue that morality cannot be affected through solo training is absurd.

Would you tell me that prayer has no affect on my morality because during said prayer I don't interact with anyone? :laugh:

If you can't find clarification on this subject I would argue that you have done no reading outside this forum-hit your local bookstore/library.

with respect,
Brendan Finn:wave:

Soulend
4th April 2002, 18:52
If you can't find clarification on this subject I would argue that you have done no reading outside this forum-hit your local bookstore/library.

And you would be quite wrong in doing so. It was my reading of 'The Koryu Bujutsu Experience' by Armstrong and the essay 'The Tojutsu of the Tatsumi-Ryu, Murphy's Law, and the K.I.S.S. Principle' by Liam Keeley (mokuroku in iai, kenjutsu, and yawara) that caused me to bring these questions here. I have always been fascinated with iai, and practiced the Seitei Kata under instruction when in Japan many years ago. I have many books on Japanese swordsmanship and philosophy, by the way, but none addresses what I'm asking. Perhaps you can recommend a specific book that answers these questions, Mr. Finn?

Does prayer make you a more moral person? I don't know. I guess it could be argued though, that if you pray you must therefore believe in God, and thus you are interacting with someone. :)As to solo iai, this is what Armstrong says:

"Somehow, by working alone with the 'sword and the mind' (to coin a phrase), one is supposed to rise above the common immoral world. The question is, as morality refers to people interacting, how can it be learned in a solo training context? If any moral improvement is to occur, then it must be in a social context, between interacting individuals. Battojutsu, iaido's classical antecedent, is part of a larger training matrix of koryu kenjutsu. Here, there is a context for the give and take between opponents; here is the basis for 'making a better person'."

-from the Koryu Bujutsu Experience

I wish that someone would realize that I am repeating questions raised by someone else that I don't have the knowledge to answer. I didn't come on here and say "Iaido is nonsense", or "The Shoden and Suwariwaza of MJER are BS, 'cause seiza and tatehiza are BS", or something like that. I do not have the skill or knowledge to criticize anything, nor is it my intent to. Write to Hunter Armstrong and berate him, not me. I simply read something that I had not really considered, and knowing that there are folks with a lot of experience in the subject here, came here to ask. Figured that it would be an enlightening discussion.

Soulend
4th April 2002, 19:40
Ah, I found the original discussion. Forgot we have an 'archives' now. So never mind...there are some good ideas in there.

Finny
4th April 2002, 22:27
Sorry, I misread your post

My bad (bows, scrapes, backs off slowly...)

:smilejapa
Brendan Finn:toast:

Soulend
5th April 2002, 01:02
No apologies neccesary Mr. Finn. It is I who should apologize for beating a dead horse. Unfortunately I cannot delete this thread now, otherwise I would. Ben Bartlett has kindly emailed me explaining a lot of this, and there is a lot of info on the other thread. I didn't realize how thoroughly it had been discussed there already (last time I read it before today, I think it was only one page-now it's three!)

Anyway, my beer level is getting dangerously low, so it's off to the store with me. :toast:

Ric Flinn
5th April 2002, 01:14
On the subject of morality, I'll just add this. Before I started iai, I never really thought about taking another person's life. If nothing else, iai has made me think about it, really dwell upon it. Moreso than other arts (kenjutsu included) simply because it is done with such an air of seriousness. Granted, this is just baggage that I've added, but it's there nonetheless and it's made me think differently.

My two whacks. (Of the dead horse.)

Ric Flinn