View Full Version : Toide, Tegumi & Go Ten Te

10th April 2002, 01:03
I wanted to know if they terms are officially form/forms of Okinawan grappling? Even though, I'm not not a kareteka anymore, I had done two yrs of the Shigeru Oyama full contact style of karate, I am still interested on the fact they have been listed as Okinawan grappling since I did judo after my karate stint but no longer practice because of shoulder problems. I have read Tegumi is a set of drills which may have joint locks, but it usually a set of strikes along parries that set up an eventually joint lock. While, I have also read that Tegumi is a children's form of grappling, as well as reading that it's supposedly a system of Okinawan grappling like chin'na?
I have also read that Toide and Go Ten Te are also names for Okinawan grappling. I read that Toide is the name for joint lock techniques, as well as being a system of Okinawan combat grappling just like Go Ten Te is. Toide and Go Ten Te is have supposedly had been something like judo/jujutsu but I wondering if this actually the case. So if anyone has anyone in depth info and can give a better description of what these supposed system or systems of Okinawan grappling are I would be happy to read anything that's posted about them. Orlando Carrasquillo

10th April 2002, 06:44
There are different arts that use these names, and different systems of techniques using some of the same names, and maybe all of them are somehow related to each other.Its not an area that has been really well documented.

But basically toide is Okinawan for Japanese torite meaning seizing hand, which is an old name for certain types of jiujitsu locking technies used in Japan and sometimes by the people charged with enforcing the law and arresting people, so torite may be arest techniques.

Tegumi as I understnad it is a series of flow drills used in old style karate, and maybe also related to Okinawan Sumo which is also called tegumi, but tegumi the children's game is an Okinawan form of wrist wrestling.

Why all these called this?Well, te gumi means really, hand catching or taking hold of, and it is made of the same kanji as kumite.So it means taking hold of the person's hand or arm to defeat them, as I understand it.

Now, Gotente, is the Japanese art of the Palace Hand, which to the best of my knowledge and understanding was a forerunner art, along with another called oshikuchi or indoor techniques,. of the Daito Ryu Aikijiujitsu founded by takeda , which Takeda never mind for now.

It may be the Jigen Ryu arts practiced by the Satsuma Samurai included the gotente, and this may be why an Okinawan art is referred to as Udundi, Palace Hand in Okinawa-ben or Uchiunaguchi, Okinawa dialect.

The Motobu Ryu martial arts of Okinawan claim to teach the Udundi as part of them.Some one mentioned there may be a connection between the Hakko Ryu Jiujitsu and some of this, but there I also do not have any information.

Now, what part Japanese palace hand arts, which included unarmed disarms of weapons and aiki like projection throws, had to do with their Okinawan namesakes, and what part Chinese Kungfu's chin na section, meaning seize control and almost exactly rthe same thing that torite or toide does, had to do with both, I don't know for certain, and maybe no one now living, really does.

There is also tuite, which Taika Oyata calls part of the arts he teaches.What relation this is to all these others, I do not either, know.This may be indigenous Okinawan grappling too, and so may the others be.

So, basically, I guess its who you talk to.What I do know- all the actual Okinawan arts and styles above named are very useful and effective in self defense, if they are thoroughly studied and carefully mastered as to both principles and applications, and along with a style of karate and or kobujitsu.

I have personally experienced some different variations of these, but not of others, and I have seen many people try to claim expertise in them who know absolutely nothing whatever about them.

basically, if you know judo or aikido, and see something that doesn't really work , you could judge for yourself. If on the other hand, an exponent of one of these arts for real touches you and you are off balance before you can scream, its the real thing.

If they cause intense pain whilst grasping onto you in a multitude of manners, that would be real.

If they effortlessly project you in a many directions, that to, would be an indication of reality, if you are familiar with grappling arts like judo or aikido or such.

But if you have only strtiking knowledge from karate, and someone impreses you with a maneuver that for all you know a white belt in judo could block or stop, that proves nothing at all.

Just as a phony karateka may impress by learning some fancy kicks and intimidating hand motions, someone knowing no karate or boxing type art, so may a lousy locker or grappler impress someone ignorant of balance, posotioning and execution of throws, holds and locks.

Therefore anyone claiming to teach such elaborately exotic sounding arts or techniques, should be able to demonstrate sound principles with knowledgeable people.

I haver had some people claim to be expert in jiujitsu or even judo, grab onto me and be unable to budge me, and my judo rank was sankyu, thirty some years ago.One person claimed to be a master of Aikido.He was not.I have seen shodans from Chicago throw three attackers repeatedly around a room, and no one was falling for him.I have then seen such 'masters' as above be unable to secure a simple arm pin on me when I let them.I stood up out of it, not because I was expert but because they were not. Guy from Chicago weighed about ninety pounds and he could do it though.

So, when anyone claims to teach exotic grappling arts, I'll, let them prove it.On a mat.If they claim to teach karate or kung fu, they may wish to put on Okinawan bogu armor and demonstrate proficiency there, too.Or just show me, on me, a technique, slow motion, I promise not to resist until the technique is set.They may like to show me how they do that technique while I throw a simple, basic level karate stepping punch, in a more advanced way, towards them, if they can.

If what you have to teach me won't work on me, I don't want or need to learn it.This is only sensible, life is far too short in this plane to waste on nonsense.

Otherwise, I don't want to hear about it.

11th April 2002, 00:36
And between you and me, that's about the lot, I bet, Robert.

I've called tuite or toide Okinawan aikijutsu before, because it seemed like an art where throws and locks were done using angles and such rather than hip fulcrum principles as in Judo or kito ryu, but it isn't the same, either.All I meant by it was that's the closest thing to it, that people might know about.Same as saying, if someone is in China, that karate was Okinawa Kung Fu or more properly ch'uan fa.It is, but its not the same thing either, though, maybe , once it was. Where exactly all the influences of Okinawan karate derive from, is another one for the historians.I personally believe at this point, a confluence of Okinawan, Polynesian, Japanese and Chinese influences all acted to produce what we now know as Okinawan karate, and this might hold true for the grappling as well, and I believe Okinawan dnace should also be looked at, there is one type called wakanshu udui that is supposed to be a type of karate.

Okinawa apparently has Aikido dojo there, I went to a website of one such, with an Okinawan eighthdan in the art, and if the other stuff were aikido I guess they wouldn't have such a dojo there.

Anyway, that's about all I got on that subject, seen a few articles and other styles and as you said, all differ, although at basic levels some of the ideas are similar, howbeit in theory not in execution.

As for no one being able to duplicate Taika's movements including his students, that reminds me of Uyeshiba, Gozo Shioda, both of Aikido, and Cheng Man-Ching of Taichi, even thopugh they had great students, none could duplicate what they did either.

The only one that looked as high level as Taika, that showed it on tape, was Shioda of Yoshinkan, and none of his guys can do what he did either.Though, again , the ways in which they did things was very different, the level of skill was reminiscent.One move, down they go for real.Thingds like that are inspiring, but how to achieve such skill?Perhaps not everyone can.

18th April 2002, 15:31

Kanji for tegumi and kumite are the same, right?
Are there any differances in meaning, or is it just the way they happen to be used?

Ari Lappinen

24th April 2002, 00:03
Originally posted by kusanku
So, when anyone claims to teach exotic grappling arts, I'll, let them prove it.On a mat.If they claim to teach karate or kung fu, they may wish to put on Okinawan bogu armor and demonstrate proficiency there, too.Or just show me, on me, a technique, slow motion, I promise not to resist until the technique is set.They may like to show me how they do that technique while I throw a simple, basic level karate stepping punch, in a more advanced way, towards them, if they can.
Interesting point of view, but IMHO in similar situations there must be punch/kick first (for distracting the opponent), then a grappling technique can be apply safely.

30th April 2002, 16:34
True Tuite, and by that I mean the really effective stuff, does not always necessarily depend on a prior distraction strike, but can take an attack from the air, sometimes using even the forearms and no hands, and down the opponent.

But most people never see this level of technique.Very surprising when deployed, as I assure you. <Many claim that this won't work because some aikido people can't stop a punch, but tuite is used by kempo type karate folks who fight in armor and know what happens when you don't stop a punch.Ouch.>

Body turning or tai sabaki and ashi sabaki or foot turning are very crucial here, as are proper kamae or posture assumed not before the attack but as the attack manifests.The needed angle and sitacne, the needed turn, must occur for some tuite waza to work properly without using distraction blows and kicks.

Reading the opponent's attack is also necessary here, this comes only through repeated training and long experience, and many a bruise can be suffered until this skill is developed fully enoiugh to work as protection.

So, think of the arms as the wings of say, a crane, for instance, and the opponent's punch as coming betwen them, as the hips and feet turn and the wings snap together on the arm, at the areas where it will trap and lock it with much pain.Then the finish of the techniue is smoothly and seamlessly applied.

Of course, sometimes strikes are indeed necessary to setup a waza.Striking with proper body mechanics, is also a specialized skill , maximizing the transfer of weight and momentum into vulnerable zones on the opponent's limbs, this skill has been designated especially as well.

Now this is only part of tuite, but it is a significan part of it.Many who imitate the real deal, do not understand stuff like this and many other factors that make it so devastatingly effective.To those who do however, and Robert is one, this is basic stuff.Me, I'm merely a rookie at it myself.

Yet, basics can go a long way in practice, if practiced.