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Shoki
11th April 2002, 14:59
I use a Shinken for iaido and it is a fairly good quality one ( made by Hiromune Takaba, Miyairi school ) The thing is I am getting very small marks along the mune obviusly from performing noto and general usage during practice. I am properly cleaning it and have been collecting swords for around 10 years so I know how to properly care for them.

I would like to hear from other iaidoka who have experienced this problem or if anyone has anything to say about it. I have been told that this happens to swords when used and not just looked at!

Thanks
Rob Anderson

tonpo
11th April 2002, 16:50
yes it happens when u use it for more than eye candy. When i get a new blade that im not used to ill have the same problem as u. so heres my advice: when ur performing noto, be conscious of how the blade is going in. is it scraping against the wall of the saya? is it bumping against the sides?..anything not normal. find out whats going wrong to cause tension between the blade and saya to make marks like that. when u perform noto try get the blade in as smooth as possible, without having any of the irregularities occuring.
thta usually helps me out...i hope it helps u!

thanks

Shoki
11th April 2002, 20:06
Thanks Clarence,

My noto is usually smooth, the marks are not scratches etc but small black marks......I have been told by a polisher that they are a form of minor rust and to not worry about them. After a hard session I get sweaty hands and these naturally handle the blade in some of the kata.....do you get the same marks as these?

Also can anyone answer me this. When completing chiburi correctly I still do not see how all the blood can come off the blade. In feudal Japan should a Samurai have to complete chiburi after cutting his enemy then surely blood would have still been on the blade and then after noto in the saya. This would have caused the blade to rust very quickly......What did they really do? clean the blade straight afterwards?

Thanks
Robert

Brian Dunham
11th April 2002, 20:34
Chiburi in Iai kata is not intented to clean the blade completly-you would need to actually wipe the blood off the blade before putting it back in the saya. Chiburi, theoretically, would be used to flick off any bits of flesh or bone, and some blood, but certainly not enough to put the blade away. I have always thought that the first part of noto (drawing the mune between the thumb and forefinger) represented wiping the blade with a cloth or paper, as much as it allowed you to return the blade to the saya without looking down. Some old styles of noto seem to represent this a little more directly (including at least a couple of traditions that begin this action by pinching the habaki between the thumb and finger) than others.
Kata chiburi, besides the theoretical blood removal, serves another very important purpose. The final postion of chiburi serves as a consistant, defined, and static starting point from which to begin noto.

Brian Dunham

tonpo
11th April 2002, 22:42
beat me to it =p...as is a lot of things that are practiced now that are old/ancient...a few things have become symbolic. as in chiburi..its motions are supposedly to remove blood/matter off of the blade, but u and i and everyone know that that is just not possible. so chances are samurais probably kept a cloth on them at all times for this particular purpose, to totally get rid of any blood on the blade before sheathing the sword.

Gene Gabel
12th April 2002, 06:36
Originally posted by tonpo
beat me to it =p...as is a lot of things that are practiced now that are old/ancient...a few things have become symbolic. as in chiburi..its motions are supposedly to remove blood/matter off of the blade, but u and i and everyone know that that is just not possible. so chances are samurais probably kept a cloth on them at all times for this particular purpose, to totally get rid of any blood on the blade before sheathing the sword.
......................................................
I have seen a kata (cant' remember the style) that does have a wipe using the fingertips. It was done slowly . The ha was down and the blade was at a little of a downward angle as the fingers were used in a wiping motion across the mune all the way down. I think the blade was pulled in an upward motion as the fingers went down. But, don't quote me. I think I have it on tape. If I find it again I will post a little better and use some reference instead of my failing memory. In my style there is a pause(zanshin) directly before chiburi where the blade is vertical that could also symbolize more blood drip..


Gene Gabel

Shoki
12th April 2002, 18:35
Dear all, nice to read your thoughts! Without wishing to sound to contraversial I do not think that the Samurai in days gone old who followed Bushido in it's true form really worried about their blades, in the sense that we do today. I think that they were more concerned with winning or dying with honour and if their blade got dirty or chipped the polisher in any little town would do what they do best. I appreciate that if the Samurai had a blade of real high quality then things would be different but if this were the case they seldom used this blade, chossing instead for everyday use a more common one. Most young Samurai or Ronin I believe could not affrod a blade by a great smith and so their view on them was to cut first and if it had a great forging skin etc then that was a bonus. I known this thread is going off the point somwewhat but I think it is interesting........and would like to read others views, it's all hyperthetical at the end of the day unless anyone out there has some references on this subject.

At the end of the day I still don't like the marks left on my blade by my constant handling!:smilejapa

tonpo
12th April 2002, 19:26
i read an essay that was really interesting. It said that only about 5% of samurais actually studied the katana seriously, and only 5% of that 5% were masters. It's not controversial at all that u bring up this point, but it all falls into its own place. In ancient japan, actually the first choice on the battle field, believe it or not, was not the katana (GASP). The first choice were spears, or anything with a long reach, and even ABOVE THAT was archery. The katana was saved for when the battle got too close for spears and arrows...then the samurais would draw and fight with their swords. And in the battlefield, and anytime during ancient fuedal japan, the sword was tool FIRST...work of art 2nd. to a samurai what good is a beautiful blade if it were to break upon blocking its first blow. performance was number one, because poor quality ended in death.

I think it wasnt until peace eventually settled into japan that the katana became worshiped more as a work of art than as an instrument of war. Because w/out constant use, the katana elevated from an everyday weapon which was used to kill and defend oneself, to a sort of symbol of samurai beliefs themselves. the sword was no longer used in real time combat, so maintaining its beauty became more important. At that point it took on its role as the soul of the samurai...not fromt he beginning. When blades would last for years and years (because not seeing battle) and the JSA practitioner would form a bond with it, and use it day in and day out for kata and practice..then thats when it became more than just a weapon. it became a soul.

=)

ps-in ancient japan, samurais would take their battle worn swords to the smiths, get it repolished again and again after every battle where it received damage(which thins out the blade more w/ each time)until it wore down the blade too thin, then he would have the smith melt it down and make a new sword for him....just further proof that katanas were viewed as tools of battle above all back then.

J. R. Backlund
13th April 2002, 03:45
Rob,

The marks you see on your sword are fairly common. Aside from the handling and cleaning of the sword, there is also the grain to consider (there are tiny pits in the steel that collect oil, dirt and moisture). This is why a newly polished sword will rust almost immediately unless oiled several times to flush the nearly microscopic steel shavings out of the grains. Your sword may have a grainy mine.

If the marks are relatively new, you can fix them yourself. You say that you know how to properly clean your sword. Clean it again, this time using two applications of uchiko powder, hitting it especially heavy on the mine. The powder, aside from absorbing the excess oil that the first wipe missed, also acts as a polishing agent (really meant to maintain an existing polish). When you wipe the powder completely off the second time, you will have a lot of powder on your cloth or paper. Using that cloth loaded with the powder, rub the dark spots back and forth. This will act as a very light polishing. If the rust is new and hasn't taken, it should remove most of it. Put a good coat of oil on, especially the area of the mine.

For future reference, check your sword the day after you've cleaned it. This will tell you if any new rust is beginning to form.

As for noto-- blood has a hard time staying on a properly oiled sword (like oil and water, they don't mix, so the blood tends to come off easily). A good chiburi will remove most of it. As for whatever is left, there is nothing wrong with resheathing the sword with a little blood as long as the amount isn't enough to drip into the inside of the saya and rot the wood. The sword doesn't have to be wiped completely clean every time you resheath it (whether there is blood on it or not), but at the end of the day, a bushi would properly clean and oil his sword if he touched it at all.

Hope this helps.

Good luck
Jason Backlund

Shoki
13th April 2002, 09:02
Thanks Jason and Clarence for your informative replies.....it was good to read them and I believe that they are accurate, thanks for the advice as well!

Domo Arigato...

Rob Anderson
:smilejapa

pgsmith
15th April 2002, 19:20
Hi guys,
Jason, I'm not sure where you got your information, but it's quite incorrect. Chiburi has been tested with a 'well oiled blade' and it flat out did not work at all. Granted it was deer blood rather than human, but I can't imagine they are too different. As for noto with blood on the blade, it wouldn't happen. Blood is highly corrosive. If it stays on your sword for any length of time, much less in the saya, it will rust. After all, it's basically salt water that's sticky. If you got blood in your saya, it would have to be thrown away.

Clarence,
you said
ps-in ancient japan, samurais would take their battle worn swords to the smiths, get it repolished again and again after every battle where it received damage(which thins out the blade more w/ each time)until it wore down the blade too thin, then he would have the smith melt it down and make a new sword for him....just further proof that katanas were viewed as tools of battle above all back then.
Do you have any idea how much even a working polish costs? Swords themselves as well as associated upkeep (saya, tsukamaki, koshirae) were proportianately much more expensive in feudal Japan than they are to us today. Your average Samurai Joe would not have that kind of surplus cash sitting around to casually have their sword repolished.

Just my opinions based on my experiences folks.

Cheers,

tonpo
15th April 2002, 20:44
ok, if a samurai didnt have money to polish a battle beaten sword...how is he going to have money to buy an all-together new sword then? so u mean to tell me by that argument, that if their swords were dented, and/or chipped that theyd just leave it? hehe sorry thats just not accurate. and u speak of experience? uve been to feudal japan? hehe j/k...i gathered that info of them replishing their swords, from an article by a very respected person in the collecting/practicing world...forgot his name tho.

remember swords were weapons first...so if a blade got damaged , if ur a samurai, ud better go and get it polished and fixed asap, or ur ass is grass in ur next battle/duel.

Shoki
15th April 2002, 20:44
One for you Clarence,

I agree as regards to the noto, certainly when a sweat drop fell on my blade whilst training chiburi got most of it off but traces remained. However I disagree with the cleaning of the blade. I do not believe that a Samuari/ronin after killing one or several enemies would immediatly clean his blade before noto, rather he would wait until he was in a safe enviroment......look at a battle situation after killing several enemies if one would have to rejoin the fight elsewhere.....you would not say ' hold on let me clean my blade first'.....I know it's just a film and don't all shout at once but you don't see these situations in the Kurosawa films....Just my thoughts and certainly not backed up by fact.

I do however believe that they would wipe the blade on either their own or their defeated enemies kimono......certainly some of the Iai kata makes reference to this.

Any comments?

Rob Anderson:smilejapa

tonpo
15th April 2002, 21:01
im not saying they did it right after they killed someone...refer to the above post by paul smith. BLOOD IS EXTREMELY CORROSIVE, and WILL rust ur blade without a doubt. so if anything the blade was probably kept out of scabbard (which is realistic considering the dynamics of battle) until the battle/duel was over. if the battle was over THEN they would wipe their blade clean, and resheath.

oh and a point i forgot to make above for paul smith..i wasnt referring to samurais repolishing blades after every battle to show that samurais had tons of money, because most didnt...but that example was to show that samurais looked at swords as tools/weaposn first, and not as their soul originally. One wouldnt repolish, and remelt and reforge a blade if they considered it their soul..so that was the point i was trying to make, not that samurais had tons of money.

J. R. Backlund
15th April 2002, 23:25
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pgsmith
[B]Hi guys,
Jason, I'm not sure where you got your information, but it's quite incorrect. Chiburi has been tested with a 'well oiled blade' and it flat out did not work at all. Granted it was deer blood rather than human, but I can't imagine they are too different. As for noto with blood on the blade, it wouldn't happen. Blood is highly corrosive. If it stays on your sword for any length of time, much less in the saya, it will rust. After all, it's basically salt water that's sticky. If you got blood in your saya, it would have to be thrown away.


Paul,

First--My information comes from koden (oral transmission of our style-Kobushin Kai) and personal experience. I, as well as everone else in my dojo, was required to perform chiburi and noto after having a fair amount of pig's blood poured onto the blade. Once it is 'flicked off' there isn't enough left to drip into the saya.

Second--My post said that a sword should be cleaned at the end of each day if it had been touched at all. A sword will not rust in the few hours that pass from the time of use to the time of cleaning. If this were true, no one would ever be able to use a sword without carrying a cleaning kit (paper, powder, oil cloth and all) everywhere they went. Simply wiping it wouldn't be enough.

Third--Blood is not nearly as corrosive as the oil from your skin, and just in case you've been cleaning your sword every time you touch it during noto, let me tell you-it's okay to wait until the end of the day.

Fourth--If a small amount of blood drips into the inside of the saya, it will dry and no longer be a problem. The only problem to worry about would be wood rot with excessive amounts. By the way, if it's that "sticky" and hard to get off when trying to flick it off with chiburi, then I wouldn't worry that much about it dripping into the inside of the saya.

Finally--Four years ago, I bought a sword from the grandson of a WWII vet. I removed the tsuka to examine the blade's mei and when I removed the habaki there was quite a bit of old, dried blood underneath. With a bit of cleaning, it all came off fine. The steel was not damaged, pitted or rusted.

Historical note--While doing research for an article I wrote two years ago, I came across a sword that had belonged to an officer that had served in China during WWII. He was part of the infamous 'Rape of Nanking' episode. The sword was in excellent condition and the soldier's son relayed stories of how his father had participated in beheading Chinese POWs (a well-documented and even photographed practice). He said that his father and most of the other soldiers he served with didn't have the means to properly clean their swords, and many didn't bother trying. This is the most recent and well-documented resource for the subject of this conversation, and I would encourage anyone who is interested in swords to research it. It is probably the most recent use of the Japanese sword against a living human.

As for polishing--Money to replace and repolish damaged blades was always available for the winning side of a battle during the Sengoku Jidai. Soldiers collected heads, swords, spear heads, tanto and so forth and were compensated by their lords for the heads and some of the weapons and could keep the other weapons and sell them or sell their old ones if they found ones they liked better. After the Sengoku Jidai, most samurai could go throughout their lives without ever having to use their swords in actual combat. Fighting was most likely not as rampant as the movies lead us to believe. If they did fight, that still meant at the end of it that there was one guy with two swords (which probably equalled a little extra spending cash).


Jason Backlund

hyaku
16th April 2002, 00:58
Reading of highley polished weapons etc. brings to mind that that maximum polish is usually a half polish (Hantogi) for weapons used for cutting. A very good friend of mine who makes totangiri weapons for cutting and not for drawing uses swords where you can still visibly see the filemarks.

Also chiburui (chiburi) and noto have become grossly over stylized over the years. Noto is resheathing the sword to do the next kata/waza and should not be confused with just cleaning and putting away a weapon after use.

The makimono I have for a very old style go into some detail of waza but give no mention whatsoever of Chiburui, Chinugui or Noto. Although if zanshin is maintained after a technique and the blade is at the correct angle chinugui will naturally occur.

I read no comments from the battojutsu people who I would think spend hour after hour cutting very hard wet tatami. The Nippon Todo Renmei use a tenugui tucked inside the keikogi to wipe the blade after every cutting sequence. What do other people do?

As to MJER: Iwata Sensei did once mention two very famous teachers who also worked as tateshi helping people with theatrical performances. These methods became very popular and fashionable. I forget the names now. I could check bur perhaps some one else has been told these facts?

In my short experience of having blood on a blade (Will not go into details) the hot blood came off like water off a ducks back.

Mentioning Nanjing brings to mind thoughts of Gunto not Koto.
If I found a blade with positive proof that it had been used there I would like to have enough money to buy it and destroy it.

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

Todd Stephens
16th April 2002, 18:38
Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be fairly easy to just replace the saya, if it became contaminated with blood or dirt? At least compared to the cost of repolishing a blade, it seems that it would be more practical. Assuming that blood did find its way into the saya because it was not all removed prior to returning the sword, I would not think it would be the greatest catastrophe.

Thank you,
Todd Stephens

pgsmith
16th April 2002, 18:45
Hi Clarence,
You said
ok, if a samurai didnt have money to polish a battle beaten sword...how is he going to have money to buy an all-together new sword then? so u mean to tell me by that argument, that if their swords were dented, and/or chipped that theyd just leave it? hehe sorry thats just not accurate. and u speak of experience? uve been to feudal japan? hehe j/k...i gathered that info of them replishing their swords, from an article by a very respected person in the collecting/practicing world...forgot his name tho.
remember swords were weapons first...so if a blade got damaged , if ur a samurai, ud better go and get it polished and fixed asap, or ur ass is grass in ur next battle/duel.
I never said he would go get a new one, you chose to add your own interpretations to what I stated. You said that it was a tool so they wouldn't bother to take care of it, I believe that to be absolutely wrong. In Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook, there are several woodblock prints of samurai working on their own swords. To not bother to take care of your sword would be ridiculous in my opinion. That is the same as saying infantrymen in a modern army wouldn't bother to take care of their weapons because they are just tools. And just as an aside, it's spelled YOU and YOU'RE. :)

Hi Jason,
I don't doubt that anything poured onto an oiled blade would slide right off since it wouldn't disturb the oil layer. There was a discussion here a while back (pre-crash) about a fellow in my class that tested chiburi on a fresh killed deer carcass. He hung it from a tree to bleed it out, and cut off it's head to accomplish this. He then performed chiburi, and said that most of the blood stayed right where it was. He said he had to wipe it down with a cloth in order to get it off. As for the blood under the hibaki of your sword, I can well believe that. Blood also hardens and seals, that's part of its job in the body. The blood under the hibaki likely sealed it well enough to prevent moisture from entering. Dried blood in your saya would not do that. Human blood has roughly the same salt content as sea water. Salt is highly corrosive to steel, and if moisture is present will cause rust in short order.
Hi Colin,
Yeah, that's what we do also. I keep an oiled cloth in my gear bag for cutting. When the sequence I am performing is done, I go over and wipe my blade down. I still ended up with some small rust stains that I had to work on after last year's Toyama Ryu Tai Kai in Orlando. Probably because of their 120% humidity! (Well, that's what it felt like!) Gotta agree with you on Nanjing.

Cheers,

tonpo
16th April 2002, 19:53
first of all...anyone w/ any common sense would know that u and ur are SHORTCUTS , thats not how i really would spell them, so going towards that was just rediculous, im not typing my thesis here, im typing on a message board.

2nd of all u missed my point again! my point for the reference of repolishing their blades was to prove that in the beginning swords werent considered a samurais soul, or held as high in standard as they are now. so please read over a post before u reply to it.

Richard Elias
16th April 2002, 20:39
I am not an Iadoka, but here's what we do.

In the old days a part of the tradtional costume was a piece of paper (washi) that was tucked into the kimono with a corner sticking out. This was used for many things but one of them was to wipe the blade clean after use. In the style I practice the movement of removing the paper and wiping off the blade is a part of the chiburi and noto and is done every time. The wiping of the blade is a seperate movement after the chiburi and before aligning the blade for resheathing. We do not touch the blade with anything but the paper during the whole process. The fingers do not touch the blade to line it up with the scabbard and the blade is not allowed to rest on the koiguchi. And your not allowed to look at what your doing. There are of course alot more detail and it is a much harder way of doing it, but that's what we do.

It is also my understanding that polishing back then was not the developed art that it is today. The Hantogi Colin mentioned was most probably the common polish.

Walker
16th April 2002, 21:44
Mentioning Nanjing brings to mind thoughts of Gunto not Koto.
If I found a blade with positive proof that it had been used there I would like to have enough money to buy it and destroy it.

Hyakutake Colin
__________________________________________________

Over the weekend we found a small propaganda poster printed in Shanghai depicting Japanese atrocities (massacre of civilians using bayonet and sword) in a junk shop framed and with a news clipping on the back saying it was found under some siding during a restoration.
Don Angier looked at it and said it looked like Toyama ryu. :eek:

Soulend
16th April 2002, 23:35
just rediculous, im not typing my thesis here

Lord I hope not, it's spelled 'ridiculous'.

As to chiburi, kasa no shizuku o harao might remove a lot of the blood and gore, but not enough to preclude corrosion.Katana o kaesu will remove very little except chunks.Chi no shizuku o otosu will get rid of a couple drops. If no blood is available, you can try this using only water. Water sticks to a blade a whole hell of a lot less than blood - but even it doesn't come off enough to preclude corrosion. I'm very inclined to believe that some chiburi as practised in iai today is symbolic, however there are some waza which simulate wiping off the blade, and this makes sense. In battle, and while in a state of zanshin after a duel, the last thing on a warrior's mind would be to quickly clean his blade before it rusts. Once minor amounts of blood in the saya soak in and dry (provided there isn't a whole bunch packed in), it shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if they simply washed out their saya with water once in awhile. You see, if I got an original Colt .45 Peacemaker for my collection, I would be meticulous as to it's care (they're worth a fortune!-and a symbol of the old West). But the original owner (who actually had to rely on it) probably cared for it enough to keep it functioning, and that's it. Today they are a treasure, yesterday they were a prized tool.

A samurai that could afford repolishing and reshaping probably would, but it would all depend on rank and income, of course. I think that during the feudal age many bushi did this (reshape and polish) themselves...all but the worst kizu. One could not have one's weapon re-polished and chips filed off by a professional during a long campaign..there would simply not be one available. I think considering the length of the campaigns, and the conditions they fought under, minor chips and rust spots would probably be ignored. The bushi would keep it wiped off and oiled the best he could.

I can perhaps compare this best to my own line of work. In garrison, our rifles must be kept absolutely spotless, inspected by rubbing Q-tips and pipe cleaners in all the nooks and crannies (and believe me, there's a whole lot more nooks and crannies in an M-16A1 than on a sword!). In the field, the weapon must be kept clean enough to function properly, and eye kept out for truly grievous corrosion.
A warrior simply can not keep his weapon spotless in the field. It has to be kept in as good a shape as possible, so that it is capable of killing the enemy.

I like the old Arab habit of wiping off the blood on his fallen enemy's hair :)

As for noto, I can see the parallel with the number of law enforcement officers that reholster a double action weapon after firing, and it fires again in the process (maybe into their foot!). Noto at first glance seems negligible, but I can see how it's practice would keep your wits about you.

By the way, I cannot see destroying a sword that was used in Nanking. This will not reverse the evil of the massacre. It is simply a tool, and a historically important one at that.

How many antique swords held by collectors have been used for evil? If you obtained a flawless Masamune or Muramasa with exceptional mountings that you later found out was used in a brutal village massacre or the killing of Christian priests when the bamboo curtain descended..would you melt it down?! How about if it was a blade by a famous maker that had been mounted into a gunto? Destroy it? I don't believe you would, regardless of what you say.

Just my ideas,

tonpo
17th April 2002, 00:02
dammit u too soulend? lol that wuz just an honest typo. but ur cool because i know u from bugei's sword forum! lol.

Soulend
17th April 2002, 00:21
Just funnin' with ya Clarence. :)

hyaku
17th April 2002, 00:47
Originally posted by Soulend

By the way, I cannot see destroying a sword that was used in Nanking. This will not reverse the evil of the massacre. It is simply a tool, and a historically important one at that.

How many antique swords held by collectors have been used for evil? If you obtained a flawless Masamune or Muramasa with exceptional mountings that you later found out was used in a brutal village massacre or the killing of Christian priests when the bamboo curtain descended..would you melt it down?! How about if it was a blade by a famous maker that had been mounted into a gunto? Destroy it? I don't believe you would, regardless of what you say.

I see what you mean. It is difficult to draw a fine line not knowing clearly what the blade has been used for. Hinkaku and Jinkaku is an important part of blade culture here in Japan.

Sorry but I just could not take pride in owning such a weapon knowing that clearly it had been used in such a fashion. I try to use creative visualization when doing techniques. But imagining people with their hands tied behind their backs is something else to me.

Hyakutake Colin

Soulend
17th April 2002, 01:22
I can certainly understand that, Mr. Colin. Yet, how many Nihonto have been used in this manner...even very old blades? Japan's history is full of brutality and repression. There are probably way more instances of Satsujinken than Katsujinken. How many old blades were used by a kaishaku or executioner...against one who committed no crime?

Destroying these is probably similar to burning an Adolf Hitler painting. As evil as the man was, the paintings were quite good.
They have historical significance. I would leave the sword in it's original state. If nothing else, as a testament to those who died at it's edge. Destroying the sword will not bring them back, or change what occurred. The dead are not the product of the swords..but of those that wielded them. Using the sword surely cannot be equvalent to justifying a previous use? Maybe using such a blade with a pure spirit and a good heart, perhaps visualizing those that formerly swung it as your own enemies could at least be some sort of counteraction against the wickedness with which it was previously wielded..

All the same, I can understand not actually using such a sword in practice. But I cannot see the point of destroying it either. The sword is supposedly imbued with the spirit of the smith forged it. Perhaps he did not envision such a use either, and thus execution of the innocent is not the sword's 'true spirit'. Perhaps a bit romantic of me..

But of course, it's your call. If I was to obtain such a blade I will keep it bloodstains and all. A reminder of the evil possible with such power. It would probably sit in it's kake, however.

hyaku
17th April 2002, 02:31
Originally posted by Soulend

If I was to obtain such a blade I will keep it bloodstains and all. A reminder of the evil possible with such power. It would probably sit in it's kake, however.
........

In a house with both a Butsudan and Shinden it would be difficult for me to know where I should display one anyway. All my blades are out of eyes reach in the closet except when I use them.

Hyakutake Colin

J. R. Backlund
18th April 2002, 21:29
Hello Paul and everyone else.

I've been doing some research and experimentation about this discussion, but this thread is getting a bit long. I'm going to start another one in the sword arts section to reply. Look for 'Chiburi-- is it enough to keep your sword from rusting?'

Jason Backlund

Usagi
20th April 2002, 03:17
Originally posted by Gene Gabel

......................................................
I have seen a kata (cant' remember the style) that does have a wipe using the fingertips. It was done slowly . The ha was down and the blade was at a little of a downward angle as the fingers were used in a wiping motion across the mune all the way down. I think the blade was pulled in an upward motion as the fingers went down.

Gene Gabel

In the page 76 of the excelent book "Sword & Spirit"by Diane Skoss is presented a school that pratices this kind of pratice.

It is the ShoJitsu KenRi KataIchi Ryu.

ghp
21st April 2002, 19:56
[cloaking device "off"]

For what it's worth regarding chiburi. Nakamura Taizaburo sensei (Toyama Ryu, Nakamura Ryu) states unequivacably "...Chiburi will not remove blood from the blade. For this, you need to use the fallen enemy's clothing, paper, etc. ...." (conversations with Nakamura sensei, 1990-94). That note comes from someone who knows. He also teaches that chiburi (in Toyama Ryu) is more of an "en garde" stance that can quickly transition into a thrust.

For what it is worth regarding polishing. Onozaki Mitsuhiro sensei states "...A good samurai learned to polish his blades. If you are learning battodo/iaido, you should also learn how to take care of your blade. My father taught me how to use the various polishing stones when I was young...." This coming from a top-level "amature" polisher (ask Chris Bolen)-- who also teaches iai.

Colin -- Hello!
Guy

[LURK mode "on"; radio-listening silence effected.]

Rennis
22nd April 2002, 23:29
I have seen a kata (cant' remember the style) that does have a wipe using the fingertips. It was done slowly . The ha was down and the blade was at a little of a downward angle as the fingers were used in a wiping motion across the mune all the way down. I think the blade was pulled in an upward motion as the fingers went down.


It is the ShoJitsu KenRi KataIchi Ryu.


Some of the more traditional lines of Hoki ryu also teach that the noto movement is mixed with a chinugui movement and have no actual chiburi. The movement/posture taken that gets confused with chiburi by outside observers is taught simply as a sort of ready position one takes before doing the chinugui/noto bit.

Best regards,
Rennis Buchner