PDA

View Full Version : What went wrong?



thumpanddump
13th April 2002, 04:35
It is a well known story of which Judo took it's place as a respected discipline. The story of matches between Judo and Jujutsu practioners. Judo won....and the rest is history.

Despite the deadly blows and bone-shattering joint locks of the more traditional Jujutsu, Judo came out on top.

What do you attribute this to?

George Ricard

Yamantaka
13th April 2002, 11:14
Originally posted by thumpanddump
It is a well known story of which Judo took it's place as a respected discipline. The story of matches between Judo and Jujutsu practioners. Judo won....and the rest is history.
Despite the deadly blows and bone-shattering joint locks of the more traditional Jujutsu, Judo came out on top.
What do you attribute this to?
George Ricard

YAMANTAKA : In part to the fact that the "deadly blows and bone-shattering joint locks of Jujutsu" weren' allowed. Heavy rough-and-tumble yes, but not those. Judo had definitely more training in efficient randori and newest form of Shiai.
IMHO

fifthchamber
13th April 2002, 13:46
Hi George,
From the tales that I have heard of the competition it was set up to show the two 'sides' in competition but the rules were a major problem for the Jujutsu practitioners as the whole point of their training WAS to seriously damage the opponent..NOT to get ippon (Or even a submission in this case).
The Judoka had been using and training in the exact form that the competition was held and as such had far more idea about what techniques would get the required results from the Jujutsu guys..Along with this was the type of training done in either group..The Judoka used waza that they HAD done and used in randori during their training...The Jujutsu trainees had no options about training other than to use Kata and so had less idea about exactly how to change the forms to fit with the randori type exercise.
I also have never heard of the use of Atemi in the competition..It certainly does not get mentioned in the accounts I have read..Jujutsu WITH atemi may have seriously damaged the opponents and would not have helped with relations between the two groups. Not that the Judoka would have been seriously left out in this either as Judo does contain liberal use of attacks and strikes primarily borrowed from the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu teachings on Kyusho and strikes/kicks.
The main point in this is that it was setup as a tournament and with rules and Judo followed (Roughly..)along those lines for training. Jujutsu is not taught like this and the different teaching ideas I believe reduced the use of Jujutsu waza and took the 'bite' out of them to the detriment of the 'team'...
I still would have loved to have seen Saigo Sensei in action though..He sounds like an amazing guy to have fought..Ahhh..History.
Ya gotta love it!
Abayo:wave:

Kit LeBlanc
13th April 2002, 15:18
Guys,

This is already being answered in the Judo forum. The idea that the rules hindered the jujutsuka is not true..research is showing that pretty much ALL taryu shiai style matches and dojo visiting challenges were being done the same way. Everyone was familiar with the rules as they were par for the course in the jujutsu world at the time. The Judoka, themselves mostly jujutsuka to start with, simply brought more to the table. The question is why?

See the thread in the Judo forum.....

Jon S.
13th April 2002, 23:18
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
The Judoka...simply brought more to the table. The question is why?


More hunger, perhaps?

Kit LeBlanc
14th April 2002, 05:16
Jon,

I doubt it...Tosuka's Yoshin ryu was highly lauded and had far more to lose, and what I have read seems to cast it as Kodokan vs. Yoshin-ryu champions more than the other representatives.

fifthchamber
14th April 2002, 14:27
Hi Kit,
I am aware of the debates plus and minus points on this subject..But your reply DID open up a line that I am not certain of the answer of myself and would appreciate any clarity from those here..
You said that the matches were 'fair'..However in those matches (Or rather all the reports of the matches I have seen) it does NOT state that ANY of the players were using any form of Atemi in the fights...Was this due to the 'Rules' you refer to in your post or not?
I think that the elimination of strikes and kicks WOULD prevent the Jujutsu from being applied 'properly' both for the Judoka and the Jujutsuka both..
Any ideas on this one?
Respectfully...
:smilejapa

fifthchamber
14th April 2002, 14:48
Sorry Kit....
This ones already answered in the Judo forum.
(Goddamn double asking posters!!:laugh: LOL!!)
Abayo..