Origins of Modern Jujutsu?

[Neil Hawkins]

What are the origins of modern Jujutsu?

Most of the styles I've seen that think they are based on Koryu styles are in fact a Judo derivative rather than a Jujutsu evolution.

I'm sure Mark will jump in and say that Judo has links in Koryu Jujutsu and so there is a progression :). But I don't think you can reverse engineer a Martial Art like that.

Any comments?

Neil

[MarkF]

Neil,
No, I wasn't going to say that at all, but rather, I agree with you and I had a teacher who taught just that. His name was Sanzo Seki (Jack Haywood), a hapa who taught something called California Branch-Jiu Jitsu Federation. He was a legitimate sandan in judo, and his teaching came directly from the Kodokan Judo syllabus, with emphasis on Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, and atemiwaza, with nagewaza done with the application that the opponent isn't going to be wearing a dogi-ryu:D

I worked out at this dojo while searching for another good judo dojo, and while he passed himself off as hachi-dan of his jiujutsu, he apparently was a a student of the Kodokan under Prof. Jigoro Kano, and passed away in 1998. I posted a picture of him and a website on this forum a couple of months ago, and you may find it by setting your prefs that far back.

Hey, I knew what you meant!

BTW: Neil, I have an article which is going to be published in a couple of months in which I do speak of this, albeit, not too much detail, but I will let you know, as it is still being written and edited as of now.

[Edited by MarkF on 08-03-2000 at 03:08 AM]

[Dale]

I understand that the reason for this is due to the huge popularity of Judo both in Japan and Europe.
After the Meiji retoration Ju-jitsu was difficult to find and most of the population had lost intrest in the art, partly due to increased westernisation.
Prof. Jigoro Kano was lucky enough to have found Teijin Shinyo Ryu where, through his love and passion for the art, he became a Master of Ju-jitsu. He understood the fragile future of Ju-jitsu and believed Ju-jitsu should be preserved as a natural treasure. Kano developed Judo with the intentions of promoting Ju-jitsu and increasing its' popularity by creating a way to make it competitive. Unfortunately the effect on Ju-jitsu was quite the contrary as the popularity of Judo nearly made Ju-jitsu extinct.
The newly found Judo also appealled to the competitive/sporting nature of western culture so Judo flourished when introduced to Europe. At this early stage, in europe, Judo was sometimes known as Ju-jitsu as the europeans could not distinguish between the two arts. Also Many of the Ju-jitsu schools in Europe reduced the combative nature of their art in order to create/emphasise the sporting side of the art to attract students.
Unfortunately much of the Ju-jitsu around today is actually closer to Judo in its' practise and can be very deceptive, particularly with the Kodokan Goshin Kata etc which is easily mistaken for Ju-jitsu and is sometimes ellaborated and taught on its' own as Ju-jitsu.
A good way to tell if the school is Judo or Ju-jitsu is in the groundwork. If you are new to Ju-jitsu then ask your instructor about the lineage of the school.
To my knowledge true Ju-jitsu has abdsolutely no competitive/sporting component.



Yours in Budo
Dale Elsdon
(Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu Ju-jitsu)

[Aaron Fields]

I am involved with the Yabe ryu-ha (descended from the Tenjin ryu-ha.) Pre-judo, but today we may be classified as a goshin jutsu as well. We have maintained our “traditional” methods, but have also developed methods based off our historic means that are responses to modern conditions. I am not going to go on-and-on about our historical roots, because nice may they be, effectiveness is our real goal.
The human body is not infinite in movement. So, if a technique works it works, change is the only constant and we can only move forward re-discovery is part of the process. If naginata became common again (because we lost Berreta technology) people would learn to deal with naginata again. Would it look like methods found in feudal Japan, yes, because there is only so many ways to "skin a cat."
I agree that many people out there add a little of this and that to get ---- ryu, and usually it turns into muck. I also agree that historically rooted ju-jutsu is a hard animal to locate (keep in mind what historically accurate, i.e. pre-Olympic, judo looked like.) Yet, since changing to meet the needs of the day is the traditional standard, will the goshin jutsu or gendai of today be the "traditional arts" of the future? In my mind there is a difference between traditional and historic. Yet, humans move the same today as they did eons ago.

[Neil Hawkins]

Thanks Aaron, I tend to agree with you, the style should evolve to cater to the newer forms of fighting.

Our school (Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu) has made some changes in the last hundred years, but there is still a core of the traditional techniques and much of the senior gradings incorporate this, so I would argue that it is still a koryu, but others will dispute this and we'll start that whole argument again, so I'll stay away from it.

What I'm more interested in at the moment is if there are any modern schools that a) actually admit to being a judo derivative, or b) claim other sources seperate from Judo/Jujutsu. Why did they develop, was it to cash in on the self-defence boom? Some are quite old, so did they develop because there was no real Jujutsu and they saw the flaws in the Judo that was being taught then?

Should these styles be called Jujutsu? Dose the word relate to the method of defence, or is it tied to the history of the art? If I invented a style of swordsmanship using the katana, should I call it Kenjutsu?

And as a last question, should a western modern style of Jujutsu adopt a Japanese sounding name, sure this will confuse the public and prospective students. I have heard of one school in Australia that was very proud of it's name thinking it meant Strong and Agile, but in reality it meant Elephant-Monkey. The public (and some students) believed this to be a traditional school because it had a Japanes name. I have seen another called Arjuken Ryu, on investigation I found out this stood for ARnis, JUdo and KENdo which the school taught as it's specialities. As an aside the kendo was unlike anything I ever seen! :rolleyes:.

Neil

[ericDZR]

i'm board so i thought i'd add my 2 cents worth. just recently i found a site for a style called aikisilat. not to hard to figure that one out. the school is located somewhere in the midwest but there wasn't alot of info on their site. looked kinda funny though. it almost seems that styles that developed during the 60's onward are pretty flimsy. usually conglomerations of different styles without a common philosophy. i've been studying Dan Zan Ryu jujutsu for almost a year now. the style developed in the early part of the 1900's and seem to be pretty solid. there is a big influence from judo but there is also elements of lua, arnis and kung fu. the system is mainly based on Yoshin-ryu jujutsu but i'm not sure of the history of that system. maybe that could be a topic for another thread. anyway the boss is coming so i gotta look busy.


-eric sterner

[MarkF]

Neil,
I am not so sure what you are looking for now. I was under the impression you were attempting to find styles of gendai jujutsu aatempting to reinvent the wheel, or putting together something which, either has modern day approaches, or are trying to find a niche by naming then selves X-ryu and calling themselves jujutsu.

Actually, a while back I found one which was called "aikijudo." I nteresting because the technique seemed to be that of a shodokan ryu aikido with a more basic and pragmatic feel to it, and applying jujutsu technique as well. It even had a description of shiai which was comparable to the shiai of the USJJF/JJFI. In other words, as did the USJJF, when asked for a short description, called it US jujitsu (their spelling).

Of course there are koryu tie ins with judo, but even this has been modernized, and while the kata has not changed, the waza did.

But I must confess that I am at a loss as to what, exactly, you mean.:(

[Neil Hawkins]

Sorry Mark, I was somewhere else and confused myself.

I'm looking for histories of Modern styles, stories of styles that call themselves jujutsu but don't resemble anything we know. Or anything else that fills a few posts!

Gotta go to training now!
Neil

[MarkF]

Hi, Neil,
When you get back from training, I will just be going.:wave:

[ben]

From what I understand, most modern jujutsu schools like Danzan ryu were started by students of a koryu jujutsu style, but the essence of these arts is something so far removed from their traditional roots that it is hard to even call them jujutsu. These modern schools have heavy influences not only from judo, but from aikido, karate, and other arts as well. I think (but am not sure) that what this translates into as far as technique is a much greater emphasis on stiking than is found in the traditional art. With koryu jujutsu, the emphasis is placed on joint-locking, throwing , strangling, and defense against weapons (mostly short and long swords) with strikes being used only when neccessary to take an opponent's balance. It seems to me that modern schools concentrate more on puching and kicking than the traditional schools.
So basiclly, the roots of (most) modern jujutstu schools are students of traditional styles who branch off on their own and combine their jujutsu knowledge with their experience in other martial arts, creating their own styles which they claim are more "modern". I read that the founder of Danzan ryu studied, in addition to jujutsu, judo, karate, lua, western boxing and wrestling, spanish dirk throwing (no joke) and possibly others, all of which he combined to create his style of jujutsu.

[Neil Hawkins]

Thanks Ben, I should point out though, our rule about using your full name on posts.

There are many 'modern' styles that have a strong link to the past, I would include Danzan Ryu and Wally Jays' Small Circle style in these, but there are many more that have no links at all and are purely made up. I'm interested in modern styles that accept that they are ecclectic and would like to know why they developed.

Was it because they saw something lacking in what they were studying and decided to rectify this, or, did they not have access to 'real' Jujutsu and so created a semblance of what they believed it wasn all about?

Neil

[MarkF]

Neil,
I think I mentioned it before, but check out the USJF website. http://www.usjujitsu.net .

The claim here is that they call their ju jitsu (their spelling) US ju jitsu, but they also welcome any and all styles of gendai ju jitsu and the ryuha of traditional JJ. It was started by one Bruce Bethers, hachidan, and Robert Carver. Robert is the webmaster, as he is at Budoseek http://www.budoseek.net . It began small in 1971 and has grown into an international organization (JJFI), which holds world championships regularly. They have a shiai which is divided into three parts, or rounds, and include attack, defense, and face to face (I am not sure of the exact names of these rounds, but seems similar to free-style wrestling. They do wear protective gear in these NHB-type matches so they are full-contact (again, I am not sure if the terminology is correct). What I have learned of this jujitsu is that it is maily judo with nothing for bidden, in the dojo or out.

How they came about can be found on their site. Kyu/dan ranking is used and testing fees and promotion fees go from the low end to the high end. Check it out. This may be what you are looking for. Danzan ryu (or Kodenkan jujutsu) by Henry Okazaki is a different animal altogether.

[Fredrik Blom]

Hi,

I am a practicioner of a modern and ecclectic ju-jutsu style, and highly aware of that. The style does not in any way claim to be the "real thing", atleast not today. But on the other hand, if You're not doing a "Gracie derivative", a lot of people call You traditional. Go figure :)

In the style I practise, there is a link to "the past" (i.e. Japan and "real" ju-jutsu). I would probably be the first to say that the link is weak and sometimes questionable, but still it is a link.

If I would start my own style (heaven forbid!), I guess I'd call what I taught "ju-jutsu" this or that, just becuse that is what I have been practising myself. Now, with what I (we) knows today of traditional ju-jutsu (koryu), that would be somewhat questionable, esp. since I know that my "parent-style" is not a pure ju-jutsu style. But I imagine that 50 years ago, when Curt Durewall (one of the biggest influences of the styles represented in Sweden today, from whom most styles origin in one way or another) came back from New York, ranked in ju-jutsu by Kyoshi Nakae (have someone got more info on this man?), I understand that he called what he taught ju-jutsu (esp. since he had also practised ju-jutsu from the early pioneers in Sweden).
And I also understand that those who practised for Curt Durewall before splitting with him, call what they teach for ju-jutsu too. (Btw, Curt is still active in Sweden).

As I said with todays knowledge, I guess that ju-jutsu is not what I would call what we practise, but the name is there, take it or leave it...

I guess this goes for several ecclectic styles too; they have practise ju-jutsu for someone that may or may not have been the "real" thing, but since they were taught ju-jutsu, they have continued to teach ju-jutsu...

As a side-note, to my knowledge there is only one style of koryu ju-jutsu practised in Sweden today, Hontai Yoshin ryu in a few dojos). And apart from a few Daito ryu practicioners, that's it! There was also a brief passage in 1950 when Yukiyoshi Takemura (Shindo Yoshin ryu) practised in Sweden with a couple of Swedes tagging along, but I don't know what happened to most of them, if they continued to practise or moved on to other budo, or quit altogether. There is nothing mentioned about Shindo Yoshin ryu nowdays, apart from the connections with Wado ryu karatedo...

Sweden is unfortunately a blank spot when it comes to koryu *sigh*... Time to move :)

Regards,
Fredrik Blom

[Robert Carver]

Hi Mark and all:

Just a few words of clarification concerning the USJJF.

Mark is essentially correct in his post. The USJJF was founded in 1971, but not by Bruce Bethers nor myself. Rather, it was founded by George Anderson. Instead, myself and Mr Bethers were elected to the current offices that we hold with the intent of taking the USJJF to the next level.

Many people do not realize that although JJ is quite fragmented here in the US, it is HUGE and very unified in Europe and elsewhere. In fact, in Germany alone, there are over 6 million registered practitioners. (Verifiable through the Sports Ministry since the German Federation receives government funding). During the course of its growth in Europe, a competition program did develope. I will cover more about the competition program shortly. However, because of the unified nature of JJ in Europe, they are literally 30 years ahead of us in many aspects. Mark asserts that the USJJF has grown into the JJIF (Ju-Jitsu International Federation, http://www.ju-jitsu.worldsport.com/), however this is not correct. The JJIF is the International Federation (as recognized by the General Association of International Sports Federations and the World Games Association) and is headquartered in Europe. The USJJF is the US Member and National Governing Body under the JJIF. Think US Judo Inc, and it's relation to the International Judo Federation and you will get the idea.

We do not claim to call the official system of the USJJF, "US Ju-Jitsu" (correct spelling), but we do. :) The object behind having standardized rank requirements is to put us in line with the Ju-Jitsu International Federation and our International counterparts around the world. As we discovered, because of the nature of JJ here in the States, and because we know that many schools do not have a standardize rank system or non at all, we developed the US Ju-Jitsu rank requirements for the purpose giving them a measureable standard to follow. As stated by Mark, we do not require that the US Ju-Jitsu rank requirements be followed, but rather to be used as a general set of guidelines. We do welcome both modern and traditional Ju-Jitsu. There are no requirements to engage in the competition program, nor it is required for advancement.

Mark's information on the competition program is WAY off, so I will take a moment to clarify. I would however like to begin by stating that the competition program is only a small piece of the whole pie, and although it takes on a very visible presence, it is not the whole of the USJJF. I for one am supportive of the competition program only as far as my responsibilities as the USJJF Vice President are concerned. I personally believe that the goals of Ju-Jitsu are inconsistent with sport, and I am concerned that Ju-Jitsu's real spirit and purpose will be overshaddowed by the competitive aspect. That is why I am the loudest and squeekiest wheel in keeping the traditional side of Ju-Jitsu a part of the USJJF program. In fact, we will be having our 2001 Winter Camp in New Orleans with most of it devoted to the traditional aspects.

The competition program is divided into two parts. The Kumite and Duo competition.

The Duo is essentially a self-defense demonstration by a team of two, (male, female, and mixed) with two teams competing against each other at a time. The attacks are prearranged sets and divided into four categories [Grabbing/Gripping, Embracing and Neck-locks, Strikes (with hands and feet), Weapons (knife and short staff)] with five possible attacks per category. The Center Referee draws at random three attacks from each category for a total of twelve. The competitors do not know which attack they must defend against until just before they have to do it. So the competitors must know all the attacks and defenses possible. Defenses may be whatever the team wishes to use, but must meet certain minimum standards. They are then judged on a scale of one to ten by a panel of judges. For more information concerning the Duo competition, go to http://www.usjujitsu.net/competition/duo.htm for a brief explaination of the rules.

The kumite competition is NOT full contact and it is not free-style wrestling, and yes Mark, we have plenty of "forbidden" things within these rules. Safety is of paramount concern and this is NOT NHB type of competition. If I were to characterize the kumite, it would be more WUKO style Karate kumite at the outside ranges and IJF Judo once contact has been made. Matches are in two two-minute rounds and legal techniques include: strikes (hand or foot) above the waistline, throws, arm and leg locks, strangulations. For a brief explaination the JJIF Kumite competition, go to http://www.usjujitsu.net/competition/fighting.htm

A more complete set of JJIF rules may be found at http://www.usjujitsu.net/competition/rules.htm

Hope this clarifies a few things....

Best Always,



[Edited by Robert Carver on 08-14-2000 at 08:18 AM]

[Neil Hawkins]

Welcome Fredrik, I will be training with some swedish jujutsuan in October, they are visiting my instructor, Jan De Jong. I know there is a strong jujutsu following in Sweden. It is a shame there is no Koryu. At least in europe you do have a good choice of styles to choose from, even if you only do the occasional seminar.

Thanks Robert and welcome to the 'other side' :D.

I must admit I have never had much time for organisations, I can see their need, but I have never found one that didn't become a political animal, often to the detriment of the arts represented. I hope the USJJF can stay strong and attain its goals.

The Australian JuJutsu Association went through some turmoil recently and many members resigned over disputes (mostly rank related) which left a bit of a hole is the Australian scene. I am also a memeber of the World Jujutsu Federation but we are so far removed that I couldn't even tell you who holds office these days.

I agree with you on competition, that is one thing that I believe distinguishes modern styles from the more traditional. The AJJA tried to introduce competition fifteen of so years ago and most of us in traditional styles were totally against it. The ideals were high but by the time you got to the mat it became real competition and the risk of serious injury was there. I am not sure what they do now, but many schools have karate style sparring, judo style grappling and a demonstration section.

I've never felt the need to participate and so have pretty much ignored what goes on, the only reason I stay a member is for the rank recognition and sometimes I wonder wether that's worth it, as you say different schools have different standards, there are many people who outrank me but have a fraction of the time invested in training.

See you started me off on a rant, I'd better stop now before I say something that invites flames. :)

Regards

Neil



[Edited by Neil Hawkins on 08-14-2000 at 06:07 PM]

[Robert Carver]

Thank for the Warm Welcome.

Luckly the "other side" is filled with intelligent and thoughtful individuals like yourself.

I normally do not participate in forums, even rarely on BudoSeek!. I simply do not have the time. However this time I felt I had to respond to the inaccurate information that Mark put out about the USJJF. (Mark I noted what time you make your posts, you should try and get a little more sleep!) :)

I can understand you remarks over organizations. I feel basically the same way, but again you have the need for rank recognition and the comraderie that goes along with being in an organization with like minded persons. I think the rewards far outweight the down sides, but every once in a while I find a new gray hair caused by the stuff.

As far as the competition stuff is concerned, while I personally may not be in favor of it, I do have to support it as the USJJF's VP. I also do not look down on those that engage in the competitive aspects... as they say, different strokes for different folks. Also, just because someone does competition does not detract from their skills as martial artist. I have seen some very fine JJ practitioners that can go out on the mat one minute, and in the next discuss and demonstrate the subtleties that make JJ special. Another argument I use to defend competition is that JJ competition, like it or not is here to stay. So we have a choice, we can either have our art represented in the eyes of the public as the BJJ/NHB crowd, or we can adopt good and thoughtful rules and demand the highest personal conduct from those that do compete. I think the JJIF rules that we use in the USJJF are ones that will promote a positive image of JJ competition and our art.

Anyway, I had better close before I stick my keyboard in my mouth.

Thanks again,

[Edited by Robert Carver on 08-14-2000 at 06:46 PM]

[Brian Griffin]

In spite of my meager experience, I would like to offer a few comments about Danzan-ryu:

Originally posted by ben
From what I understand, most modern jujutsu schools like Danzan ryu were started by students of a koryu jujutsu style,...
Okazaki-sensei began in Yoshin-ryu at the Shinyu-kai dojo of Tanaka-sensei. He didn't open his own dojo until he had received okuden certification in Yoshin & a couple of other ryuha (AND completed a musha-shugyo tour of dojo in Japan AND picked up a Kodokan sandan along the way)...all by 1924. I think Koizumi (of London's famous Budokwai) got his nidan from Kano a few years later.

...but the essence of these arts is something so far removed from their traditional roots that it is hard to even call them jujutsu.
In the case of Danzan-ryu, I must respectfully disagree.

These modern schools have heavy influences not only from judo, but from aikido, karate, and other arts as well. I think (but am not sure) that what this translates into as far as technique is a much greater emphasis on stiking than is found in the traditional art. With koryu jujutsu, the emphasis is placed on joint-locking, throwing , strangling, and defense against weapons (mostly short and long swords) with strikes being used only when neccessary to take an opponent's balance. It seems to me that modern schools concentrate more on puching and kicking than the traditional schools.
Danzan-ryu training is divided into shoden, chuden, & okuden levels. Serious training in atemi does not occur until okuden (typically, after nidan). Shoden & chuden techniques concentrate on joint-locking, throwing, strangling, & defense against weapons (tanto, daito, pistol) as well as the use of certain weapons (especially tessen & hanbo, as well as some techniques practiced with an obi, but which were probably meant to be done with kusarifundo). Weapon techniques form the bulk of the chuden level.

So basiclly, the roots of (most) modern jujutstu schools are students of traditional styles who branch off on their own and combine their jujutsu knowledge with their experience in other martial arts, creating their own styles which they claim are more "modern".
...And this differs from what the founders of classical ryuha did in what way?

I read that the founder of Danzan ryu studied, in addition to jujutsu, judo, karate, lua, western boxing and wrestling, spanish dirk throwing (no joke) and possibly others, all of which he combined to create his style of jujutsu.
This is an accurate quote, however:
- I have seen no trace of dirk-throwing waza in Danzan-ryu. Too bad--sounds like fun. His experience in Hawai'i with the Filipino styles of knife fighting informed his techniques of knife _defense_; he did not absorb Filipino knife-fighting into his ryu.
- Okazaki-sensei fought challenge matches with boxers (& probably wrestlers as well) and this experience is reflected in some waza which show strategies for using jujutsu waza against fighters of these styles. (e.g. tsukkomidome/sunejime/tatakikomi/hizaorinage)
- There are no western boxing skills taught in Danzan-ryu, and the only "wrestling" skills are those commonly found in jujutsu & Kodokan Judo.
- There are no karate-style "kata"; strikes are not taught with karate mechanics (except by some teachers with karate backgrounds). Ipponken & tegatana are favored.
- Okazaki-sensei was a judoka, and was strongly influenced by Kano-shihan's teachings. The shoden level of Danzan-ryu reflects this influence. The okuden level is less "Kodokan-like."
- Those with first-hand experience of Hawai'i's indigenous art (lua) have remarked on its similarity to jujutsu: nerve & vital point attacks; joint-dislocations; bone-breaking etc. It is not a "boxing" art. (The indigenous boxing style was called moko-moko, if I recall correctly). Lua was never taught to non-Hawai'ians. It is remarkable in the extreme that Okazaki was allowed to learn anything of it. The Danzan-ryu techniques reputed to have come from lua, would not be unfamiliar to koryu practitioners.

So, while Danzan-ryu is certainly a gendai-budo (founded late in Taisho) it mainly has the characteristics of the jujutsu styles (including Kodokan Judo ) upon which it was based. Okazaki was concerned with preserving the koryu techniques, hence the name of his dojo: Kodenkan, the school of ancient traditions. While he adopted modern innovations like kyu/dan ranking, he also issued makimono & teaching licenses (menkyo). The influence of Judo is unmistakeable; that of karate is debateable; that of aikido is nonexistant.

For the most part, Okazaki's experience of other styles was not so much aimed at _incorporating_ their technique, as in devising methods of defending _against_ their tactics using jujutsu.

[ericDZR]

so we know that in many ways Dan Zan Ryu although a gendai style, has very strong roots in traditional jujutsu. so what about some of the other more popular styles. i've never trained in the gracie style of fighting/competition although i am familiar with it's history. how much is it rooted in traditional jujutsu in training and philosophy? has it become distinctly brazilian or does it retain much if it's japanese roots? how about some other "modern styles"? (sorry i can't think of any off the top of my head)



-eric sterner

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by ericDZR
... so what about some of the other more popular styles. i've never trained in the gracie style of fighting/competition although i am familiar with it's history. how much is it rooted in traditional jujutsu in training and philosophy? has it become distinctly brazilian or does it retain much if it's japanese roots?...

As Kodokan Judo developed early in this century, it existed in several "flavors." The major rivalry, I understand, was between the judoka trained under the auspices of the Butokukai (like Kawaishi) and the mainline Kodokan judoka.

Another "flavor" developed among the scholastic judo clubs associated with the network of prep schools & technical universities known as the _koutou_senmon_gakkou_, abbreviated _kousen_ and often written "Kosen" in English.
The way the Kosen clubs interpreted the contest rules gave great leeway for _newaza_, and this became their specialty.

A young Kodokan 4-dan from the Kosen tradition (Maeda Kousei) was sent to the US with Tomita-sensei to help popularize Kodokan Judo abroad. A picture of him appears in Yokoyama's "Judo Kyohan." After some time on the East Coast, the Pacific Northwest, and elsewhere, he ended up engaging in challenge matches in Central & South America (under the name "Conde Koma"), eventually settling in Brazil.

When a local man (Gastão Gracie) helped him with some immigration matters, he offered to teach his children Judo. In those days, the term "Judo" was not widely used or recognized, even by native Japanese. Most just called all that stuff (including Kodokan Judo) by the more familiar term "jujutsu." What the Gracies learned were the basics of the Kosen "flavor" of Kodokan Judo. They didn't train long enough under Maeda to develop strong _tachiwaza_ skills, but they continued diligently with _newaza_ practice for many decades, more-or-less in isolation from the mainstream of Judo. This is odd, considering the large Japanese population in Brazil. I've often wondered why/how that came about.

The techniques, however, are rooted squarely in the Kosen tradition of Kodokan Judo. I've never heard any particular philosophy expressed in connection with BJJ, so I can't address that. BJJ schools, contests, and classses all have a distinctly Brazilian "atmosphere." They have clearly made the art their own.

[Fredrik Blom]

Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
Welcome Fredrik, I will be training with some swedish jujutsuan in October, they are visiting my instructor, Jan De Jong. I know there is a strong jujutsu following in Sweden. It is a shame there is no Koryu. At least in europe you do have a good choice of styles to choose from, even if you only do the occasional seminar.

Hi Neil, and thanks for the welcome... We will meet in october then, I guess, since I'm one of those (the two other are friends of mine) who will be visiting You. :) Please say hello to Jan deJong, and tell him I'll mail him again when all flightdates are set.

Back to jujutsu history and koryu:

I think there is a risk that we today romantisize (sp?) koryu as the ultimate truth in many ways. As for calling something jujutsu it definetly don't have to be koryu, there are several styles of jujutsu that are not koryu (with Japanese origin that is). Of course these do have a very strong link to koryu but are more modern in several ways.
Jujutsu competition (under JJIF rules) will be featured in World Games in Japan, go figure. It will be "interesting" to say the least what will come out of that. I've heard that some europeans (I think they are from Sweden, but I'm not sure) are going to Japan to teach "duo competition" as described by Robert Carver. If anyone knows more about this I would really like to know. From what I've heard, it's more sport-oriented karateka that are in for a jujutsu treatment, but I'm not sure of this either.

It would be really fun to go back a couple of years to say 1500 or 1600 and see how the unarmed techniques came forward and evolved fromthe swordworks. I guess there was quite a bit of testing and developement done then, which is what we now sometimes take as "gospel".

"Hm, last year I practised some unarmed techniques with a guy from Kamakura, I wonder if we should include them in our syllabus too??? I think he called it jujutsu, or was it yawara? No we call it the jujutsu-part of our school..."

Crosstraining and cross fertilizing I think has always been a part of martial arts practise (and other arts of course). Especially in Japan early in jujutsu history...

Think of it; You could get a menkyo kaiden in a couple of month, and after some of those You could start Your own school...

A young guy in his twenties with some five years under his belt starts a new style, would You like to join him? I think he is called Kano or something... :)

Regards,
Fredrik "Playing the devil's advocate" Blom

[Neil Hawkins]

Fredrik,

I look forward to meeting you in October, I live some 6000kms away from Shihan De Jong at the moment and so travel there myself every year or so to train or do gradings.

I agree to a certain extent with your observations, however the political climate of 15th and 16th century Japan does not exist anywhere today and so the conditions that led to a rapid understanding of the arts and the inovation of new (or different) ways of doing things are not here either. All too often today people practice for a short time and then want to open their own school. They do not have the experience or understanding to work from, just commercial and egotistical desires. They need something different to offer whilst catering to the trend of the moment and so come up with self-defence taebo jutsu ninpo do or something.

I believe that there is enough 'good' stuff around now that you can find what you want, but unfortunately most people don't know what they want and so get conned. There are as many opinions on what constitues good MA as there are people who teach, so who do you believe.

I don't deny anyones right to develop their own system, but IMO calling something that has little or no origin in Traditional Jujutsu, Jujutsu (or worse nakkymura ryu jujutsu) is misleading.

Now I'm not saying that Koryu styles are the best, their emphasis is different. They are in many cases less practical in todays street fights than their modern counterparts, but they still have a lot to offer. IMO if you understand a koryu system you can adapt it to any situation, whereas many modern styles don't have a system to build on, they are a collection of techniques with no common underlying principles.

Anyway I'm ranting again, so I'll leave this for now.

Regards
Neil

[Fredrik Blom]

Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
Fredrik,

I look forward to meeting you in October, I live some 6000kms away from Shihan De Jong at the moment and so travel there myself every year or so to train or do gradings.

I was in Brisbane last time I visited Australia, and did actually practise one class of jujutsu there. We stayed at a friends place, and since he also practise jujutsu I tagged along to a class. I was out travelling for six weeks, carrying a keikogi with me in my backpack for this one class :-)

I agree to a certain extent with your observations, however the political climate of 15th and 16th century Japan does not exist anywhere today and so the conditions that led to a rapid understanding of the arts and the inovation of new (or different) ways of doing things are not here either.
Just like todays climate brings up arts that are (hopefully) good for their purposes. But admittedly different from those that came around in feodal Japan.
I also think there is a risk of putting the masters from the past on a too elevated position. In my eyes they were all humans (contrary to popular beliefs in come circuits), with pros and cons. Some were more talented than others and maybe grasped things quicker (together with an ability to mix it well with their main practise). These are the ones that are remebered, like Jigoro Kano and Morihei Ueshiba to name a couple of recent examples.

All too often today people practice for a short time and then want to open their own school. They do not have the experience or understanding to work from, just commercial and egotistical desires. They need something different to offer whilst catering to the trend of the moment and so come up with self-defence taebo jutsu ninpo do or something.

I totally agree with this...


I believe that there is enough 'good' stuff around now that you can find what you want, but unfortunately most people don't know what they want and so get conned. There are as many opinions on what constitues good MA as there are people who teach, so who do you believe.

I don't deny anyones right to develop their own system, but IMO calling something that has little or no origin in Traditional Jujutsu, Jujutsu (or worse nakkymura ryu jujutsu) is misleading.

So then we're back to what it takes to allow someone to call what they teach jujutsu. What kind of lineage does it take? An unbroken link of certificates I guess would be nice but that's not always possible, not even for supposedly legit styles.


Now I'm not saying that Koryu styles are the best, their emphasis is different. They are in many cases less practical in todays street fights than their modern counterparts, but they still have a lot to offer. IMO if you understand a koryu system you can adapt it to any situation, whereas many modern styles don't have a system to build on, they are a collection of techniques with no common underlying principles.

To this I totally agree, and this is one of my major criticisms of the style I practise; the obvious lack of one or more guiding princples that runs through the entire system. At least I haven't found them yet :).
On the other hand, this will probably come in time. As stated before, the koryu didn't probably pop up full fledged with every principle right (even though it is often described like this, with divine insipration, goblins and what do you have).

Oh, and to set the record straight; The koryu jujutsu (and other koryu -jutsu) I have practised have really elightened me and given me a lot of insight. My previous post may have indicated something else, but that's just me trying to use irony in a language that is not my native one. Suppose it doesn't always come through as intended.

If I had the chance, I'd go koryu anytime; maybe it's not for me, but that's hard to tell without going there. I don't think I'd quit my current practise (You never know though), since it is IMHO a good self defence and a very decent modern jujutsu system (not to mention great fun). I'd probably take what I'd learn from koryu with me though, and we're back where we started, learning from different places and having a mix of it all *sigh*... But should it still be called jujutsu???

Regards,
Rico

[Joseph Svinth]

Just as an FYI to Brian -- Kano promoted the British judo teachers Gunji Koizumi and Yukio Tani to 2-dan on December 9, 1920. As Tani had spent most of the past twenty years working as a professional wrestler, one is inclined to agree with the British historian Graham Noble that he was probably "a real strong second-dan."

BTW, a fellow Tani beat at Bostock's Hippodrome in Paris, France, on November 30, 1905 was Katsukuma Higashi of the Tsutsumi Ryu. The winning technique? Tani made "a wild clutch" between Higashi's legs "which caused Higashi to sink to the ground, huddled up and evidently suffering very considerable pain." As Higashi regularly boasted that there were no illegal moves in jujutsu (see the Robert Edgren article at JCbtSport at http://ejmas.com ), one would think he would have expected it. And, by the rules of the match, it was a legal blow. So, immediately afterwards, "Tani then got to ground work, and as far as could be seen in the confusion, put an armlock on his opponent, which caused Higashi to give the signal of defeat." Total contest time: two minutes. Source: Health and Strength, January 1906.

[Joseph Svinth]

Now, back to modern jujitsu/jujutsu. What about the influence of such early jujitsu instructors as S.J. Jorgenson, Risher Thornberry, and Leopold McLaglen? They taught what they said was jujitsu, but is better termed "self-defense". Nevertheless, it became quite popular in international police circles with the professionalization movement of the 1920s and 1930s. Fairbairn, O'Neill, and other Shanghai Municipal Police types should be included in this group, too.

Also, what about the "judo vs. wrestling" matches of the professional wrestlers from Tokugoro Ito to Kaimon Kudo to Oki Shikina to Judo Jack Terry? In Germany, there was Erich Rahn, a professional wrestler who started teaching jujitsu in Berlin before WWI, and continued teaching until after WWII. In South Africa, there were the Robinsons, the patriarch of whom was a professional wrestler, as was his son Joe. (There is still a Robinson doing professional sumo today, by the way.) And in 1934, in The Hague, Holland, the former circus strongman Maurice Van Nieuwenhuizen started teaching jujutsu. In 1947 he and a former schoolteacher named Simon Van Harten organized a Dutch judo association affiliated with the Budokwai, and being a avid promoter, Van Nieuwenhuizen also published a flip book showing judo techniques demonstrated by Budokwai members, and the latter inspired a generation of Dutch judoka including Jon Bluming and Anton Geesink.

So the links between jujitsu and professional wrestling seem strong.

***

BTW, the DZR link to lua is called Charles Kenn. Kenn was partly native Hawaiian, and in 1934 he decided to replicate a mahahiki festival, to include replicating lua and other combative sports that had been virtually extinct since the arrival of missionaries and smallpox during the 1840s. Toward that end, he learned to read Hawaiian, and trained with Danzan Ryu stylists. :)

[MarkF]

Welcome, Robert!
OK, I admit I hadn't read your site since last year sometime, and was relying on my memory of that and that little email jousting with Bruce, as well, but please I was trying to give Neil part of the answer he was looking for.
Do you know how many times I got the link to your site wrong before I finally got it right?? Also, while I may have been too general in calling JJIF shiai NHB (because of the protective gear), I did cull this again, from my memory, from a time when I read and reread the shiai description in the papers Bruce sent me (Or was that you?:kiss:

Anyway, I, like you, post when I have time, and I admit I spend to much time here and at budoseek, but most fall into that track rather easily.:eek: So, I post when I post. I really thought that since Neil was looking for modern styles of jujutsu, your site came to mind first, and it is a different animal than Kodenkan jujutsu, so there!:redhot:

But I got one better; I got you to come alllllllllll the way over here to get it right. Bruce once told me that I had a "strange take on ju jitsu." Apparently, I didn't like the USJJF style shiai, either.

So good night and have a great day! (Now watch. Robert won't come around for another two years and by then I will be wrong again). I may have been wrong, but it was intended for the topic poster to do the digging since he asked:laugh:

BTW: Robert, there was a time when you did respond quite often and I misquoted you then, too:wave:

[MarkF]

Now to jujutsu/ju jitsu/jiu-jitsu/BJJ.

An afterthought if anyone is interested and feels like loading over 6000Kb of audio and video, there is about thirty seconds of the Kimura/Helio gracie match, I think attached to JudoInfo.com. The commentary is in Japanese, but if anyone still thinks that was a real match after seeing what they "fell on (more like tumbling in six feet of feathers and foam)," and listening to the tone of the Japanese announcer, who did a mighty fine job of doing "whoa-nelly" Dick Lane interpretations, I think someone would have to be out of his/her goard to believe this was anything but a "work.":D