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Neil Hawkins
3rd August 2000, 12:28
Here's one for all the soldiers out there.

Remember, don't get caught up in the validity of the situation, just tell us how you would react.

TDG #8

Sentry Duty

You are a soldier on guard duty at a remote military installation. It is 2300 hours and it is a clear but moonless night. You are dressed in BDU’s with LBE. You carry a M16A2 rifle with six extra magazines in your belt. You also have a water bottle, a packet of biscuits, a torch and some large cable ties. It is a time of peace, but the installation you are guarding is essential in the Star Wars Project and so you carry live ammunition. The rules of engagement are strict however and you must be threatened physically before you can defend yourself.

There are five other soldiers on duty with you and your duty is to patrol and guard the perimeter, which is roughly a square with sides of 1 kilometre. The perimeter is fenced with a 2.5m high chain link fence topped with barbed wire, the scrub has been cleared for approx 60m on either side of the fence.

The method of patrol is that there is someone at each corner, where there is a small guard station, containing a powerful searchlight, a field telephone, first aid kit and drinking water. There is usually a mounted machine gun as well but owing to the shortage of personnel this has been removed. Two roving guards walk between the corners and swap position with the guard who is waiting there. They move in oppposite directions and so spend most of the patrol alone.

You have just been relieved at one corner, and have headed off toward the next one. You move around 300 metres and have just crossed a small watercourse that provides shallow cover from view, when you realise that you left your cigarettes in the guard station. You decide to head back and grab them as they will be stolen if you leave them there and it will be hours before you can get replacements. The time issue is not a problem, as you are encouraged to patrol slowly and check the fence and so on. You are sure that you can retrace your steps, grab the smokes and finish the patrol before you are missed at the next checkpoint.

As you turn around you see a camouflaged man crawling along the watercourse, he is wearing a uniform you don’t recognise and has an automatic rifle cradled in his arms as he slowly crawls, he has seen you and freezes. Luckily the muzzle of his weapon is pointing away from you and you get your weapon up before he can react.

You move closer to him, he is heading away from the installation and is only a few metres from the scrub on the inside of the fence. He hasn’t moved since you first saw him.

Many thoughts race through your head as you get to within a few paces of him. Is he alone? He’s heading away so he’s accomplished what he came for. What did he come for? You know that the boss will want to interrogate him. What if he set a bomb? Is he alone? What if he’s a distraction for something bigger? Maybe this is an exercise. Is he alone? If not where are the others?

What do you do?

Jeff Cook
3rd August 2000, 13:03
No squad radios to call for backup?

O.K., it's hard, Neil, but I will assume no radios, and no buddy to patrol with. Is there a quick-reaction force? I hate to assume anything in your scenario, but there would have to be a reactionary force for a sensitive mission such as this. And if there is a reaction force, there must be some method of communicating with them.

Assuming I am completely on my own, I would very quickly disarm and flexcuff the intruder and leave him face-down in the dirt where I found him. I would take up a covered and concealed position in a not-so-obvious place, and where the restrained intruder could not see me. I would be too paranoid to take the time to gag him and drag him to a concealed position. If I do not have a way to communicate with my other team members (unthinkable!) then I would sit tight until they missed me at the checkpoint.

If they did miss me, I would have to assume that there is a tactical plan to assemble a squad to do a bounding overwatch through my AO. I would wait for the recon team to arrive, and then link up with them.

If a period of time goes by and no relief comes, I would haul butt back to the nearest guard shack (300m can be covered quickly), leaving the prisoner on the ground.

Honestly, though, Neil, I would not participate in a mission like this if these scenarios were not reviewed beforehand, with proper plans of action rehearsed for the worst-case scenarios.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mark Brecht
3rd August 2000, 13:35
[B]First excuse, I am a civilan.

Question, what does LBE, stand for???

Armed intruder ! ! ! I will point the M-16 at him ("mine" is loaded) with the finger on the trigger aiming for centermass (taking my body and mind into a combat stage, so that i am ready to drop or move..., in case of enemy fire). I will tell him to immediatly strech out his right hand to the side above the ground with the palm up, and than to grab the rifle by the barrel with with left hand and to throw it away from this body. After this he should move this left hand to the side and palm up (in case he would try to go for the trigger, i would shot him, two into the centermass and than one for the head...). I would quickly move behind him (out of his sight of vision), and than tell him to take his left hand behind his head slowly and than his right hand and to interlock his fingers (this all should only take a few moments). Now i would shot a burst of 3 shots into the air (he probably "pisses" in his pants, at leat i am not killing him, :D now...) and yell out of the bottom of my lungs to the nearst post: "I caught an armed intrueder, full alert, call back up and notify the local LE, to cordon off the area." Now i would keep an eye on him and on my surroundings and wait until the cavalery arrives...

Kevin Myers
3rd August 2000, 17:26
It doesn't look as if any Infantryman have responded to this post....

Nor does this scenario deserve an Infantryman's response!

Jeff Cook
3rd August 2000, 17:59
Kevin,

That is an unfortunate stance to take! Why the condescending attitude?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Kevin Myers
3rd August 2000, 19:54
Jeff,

Sorry if I came across a little too strong. It's been one of those days. The whole scenario is just a little too unrealistic and far fetched for me. Also, with my Military and Law Enforcement background, I find the responses to the scenario slightly unrealistic. I don't think there is anything wrong with scenario training or posting these types of questions as long as they're fairly realistic. Just one Grunt Officer's opinion.

Thanks,

Kevin

Mark Brecht
3rd August 2000, 19:57
Jeff,

it seems we did not satiesfy the audience. :D at least i am excused as a civilian.

Hm, actually i did understand something different under "constructive critisim". :cry: I am seriously hurt...

:smokin: Let`s chill, and see what he comes up with...

PS: Jeff, BTW how come you never inquired to me about anything??? :cry: You don`t like my stuff :redhot:. I would have actually considered giving you a special deal...

Mark Brecht
3rd August 2000, 20:02
Alright Kevin, you do not like the conditions (not everything is a textbook...), but now play along please. :D

I do think there would be a problem if you would be interested in putting up the next TDG, but i think everybody would like to see you react to this one first.

BrianV
3rd August 2000, 20:16
Neil,
Okay, I'll play your game with you!! :)
If I did not have radio comms to an OP, then I would follow basically what the others have said.
Isolate the operative, neutralize (preferably without deadly force) and disarm him, remove any I.D. papers, maps, grid co-ordinates and/or comms on him.
After this, ensuring he is properly bound and secured, I would retreat to a safe distance and observe while waiting for my presence to be missed.
Even at a slow march patrolling pace, a Klick should only take about 25 minutes to cover. 35 tops.
Personally, I would find it strange to not have either a radio comms set up for the sentry to the OP, or at least a light flash system if their is a firebreak around the perimeter on both the inside and the outside.
You did mention that the stations were on the corners, right?

Anyhow, my 2 dubloons.....



p.s., if you really wanted to be a prick, tie him to the fence and take his boots!! :)

Kevin Myers
3rd August 2000, 22:03
OK, Mark, I'll play.

I would take the torch I am carrying and set my packet of biscuits on fire. I would then send smoke signals to the S-3 Air requesting a B-52 strike danger close, to wipe out the little Spetsnaz trooper and the rest of his team lurking in the brush. I would then bend over and kiss my *** goodbye before the carpet bombing starts........

Makes about as much sense as jumping the armed sapper and trying to disarm him, doesn't it? But it should really make him wet himself!



Kevin

Neil Hawkins
3rd August 2000, 23:14
Ok,

Kevin, I can accept your criticisms of the scenario, but as I've said before, there would be no discussion if they were too easy. It's a peacetime army on a home turf installation, in a budget cutting period. I don't see this as being too far from the truth. Possibly not in the US, so say that you're Brazilian or something.

Mark, LBE's are Load Bearing Equipment, a 'H' harness supporting an assortment of pouches and carriers.

Guys

To make things a little easier, the lay of the ground is such that each corner is on a slight rise and can see the two adjacent corners. You carry a torch and there are pre-arranged signals, that allow you to attract the attention of the corner guard.

Go into more detail on how you would restrain/detain the intruder. If you want forget the rest for now and concentrate on that.

Neil

C. Park
4th August 2000, 00:17
Assuming the scenario without radio communication, I would trail him from to try to obtain info on the tango. This is for couple of reasons:
If he is a part of a assault/strike team, then his "six" isn't far behind. If the 'six' already has me in his sights, moving towards his partner is not smart. With that in mind, I look for cover, and quickly drop behind it. If the dirt and foilage around me doesn't kick up and buzz like angry bees, then I cautiously check my surroundings.

If hell didn't breaks loose when I ducked for cover, either his fellow team members didn't spotted me or the tango is on his own. I wait a few more seconds to ensure tango is indeed a solo. If I see rest of the strike team emerging, I stay put and gather as much info as possible. Once I'm sure that the strike team has gone by me, I quietly go try to alert the base duty/watch officer by guard tower phones.

If I didn't spot anyone, I then quickly and silently take down the tango from behind. I prefer a single hand choke, while jamming the fingers of my other hand around his trigger finger, preventing him from firing. I pay attention to his other hand, in case he reaches for a weapon or a panic alert key on his radio.

Once he is out, I disarm & secure the tango with zips, gagging him using his own socks and shoelaces. I prefer the hogtie in this scenario. I conduct a quick, but thorough search of the tango. I check for a wallet, any paper clues(demand note, receipt, etc). I then I take his weapons and gear, plus whatever evidence I found.

I, then, find a suitable hiding spot to secure the prisoner, like a tree trunk with thick foliage around its base. I tie him belly against the tree and go alert the duty/watch officer.

Kevin Myers
4th August 2000, 00:23
Well, if the request for the airstrike is denied, I'd open fire and attempt to take Ivan out. The rules state you must be in physical danger, right? This would make me feel as if my well being is in question. Soldiers are trained to shoot first and ask questions later. Cops have to be able to articulate and defend their actions after the fact, usually because of the risk to public safety and this isn't a public place. Grab a rifle and try to sneak into NORAD in Colorado Springs and see what happens. As soon as the shootin starts all your buddies will know something bad is in progress and call in the Cavalry. I think that trying to disarm this guy would be a bad mistake. If you were on a mission and were compromised wouldn't you put up a fight? Hey the guy has a automatic weapon which will defeat your hand to hand expert 99.999% of the time. Also, if this is such a Top Secret high speed thing your trying to protect, the bad guy is probably much better trained than you are. Most governments DO NOT send PFC Joe Snuffy to perform these types of missions. Plus he probably has friends in close proximity.

Guys I'm not trying to annoy anyone, but this scenario is something few professional Armys would be dumb enough to do.


Kevin

IchiRiKen1
4th August 2000, 01:42
Here's one for all the soldiers out there.

You are a soldier on guard duty...

Never done THAT before... :laugh:


There are five other soldiers on duty with you and your duty is to patrol and guard the perimeter, which is roughly a square with sides of 1 kilometre...

So, not to belabor the technicalities of this, but only one roving guard for a kilometer long stretch, with no additional checkpoints along that kilometer, at the exterior of a high security compound? I understand that this is a fictional scenario, but for us professional military types, this kind of situation would never exist! That is far too loose of a guard mount for some top secret Area 51 type place.


Two roving guards walk between the corners and swap position with the guard who is waiting there. They move in oppposite directions and so spend most of the patrol alone...

While I have been on guard alone in the middle of BFE, never was I COMPLETELY alone, in the sense that there was relief located not too far away... Only one guard makes it waaaaayyy too easy to wipe out all the security in one shot.


You have just been relieved at one corner, and have headed off toward the next one. You move around 300 metres and have just crossed a small watercourse that provides shallow cover from view, when you realise that you left your cigarettes in the guard station. You decide to head back and grab them as they will be stolen if you leave them there and it will be hours before you can get replacements. The time issue is not a problem, as you are encouraged to patrol slowly and check the fence and so on. You are sure that you can retrace your steps, grab the smokes and finish the patrol before you are missed at the next checkpoint...

Time may not be an issue to most, but there are issues like dereliction of duty for failure to complete his guard rotation properly in accordance with the guard mount SOP (does the SOP allow for missing checks to recover personal property left at a guard post?). I know that once upon a time when I was a security guard during college, I had to hit certain places at certain times and I was not allowed to miss the time in between them. As a grunt I have been on guard and had to check in via radio at specified intervals. Missing that meant something had happened.


As you turn around you see a camouflaged man crawling along the watercourse, he is wearing a uniform you don’t recognise and has an automatic rifle cradled in his arms as he slowly crawls, he has seen you and freezes. Luckily the muzzle of his weapon is pointing away from you and you get your weapon up before he can react...

So I aim at him and follow my training... "HALT. WHO IS THERE? DROP YOUR WEAPON AND LAY FACE DOWN WITH YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK AND YOUR LEGS SPREAD WIDE." Stick the barrel of the rifle in his neck and cuff him, Danno...


You move closer to him, he is heading away from the installation and is only a few metres from the scrub on the inside of the fence. He hasn’t moved since you first saw him...

See above...


Many thoughts race through your head as you get to within a few paces of him. Is he alone? He’s heading away so he’s accomplished what he came for. What did he come for? You know that the boss will want to interrogate him. What if he set a bomb? Is he alone? What if he’s a distraction for something bigger? Maybe this is an exercise. Is he alone? If not where are the others?

What do you do?


The boss has no business "interrogating" anybody. Leave that to the MPs and MI. If he is a distraction, then he is only distracting little ol' me, and the rest of the guards are going about their guard-like business. If it were an exercise at a top secret compound, somehow I think they would let folks know about it ahead of time to decrease the number of body bags needed for the AAR :D. There are numerous reports of folks too interested in Area 51 to obey the warning signs that had warning shots tossed their way to "encourage" them to leave. This at a distance of miles yet to the actual base. This guy is at the fence! He runs a very real risk of being popped. The ROE sounds odd, too, given the TS nature of the facility.

Neat ideas from everybody, though! :cool:

Jeff Cook
4th August 2000, 02:43
Kevin,

Apology accepted. I'm trying to prep for a change-of-command this weekend, and ain't having a real good time of it either.

I got the impression that this is a security mission, NOT a combat situation. Regardless of the attire and weapon of the intruder, it needs to be handled as an LE situation. Remember the ROE - you can draw some conclusions concerning the non-existent OPORD based upon the rules. An attempt to disarm is required. And obviously if you are drawn-down on an intruder with his arms extended, on his belly, holding a rifle, it will be extremely difficult for him to shoot back. But if he tries, cap 'im, of course!

The scenario is purposely flawed, to make it impossible to come up with a perfect answer.

Try the NCO approach, sir. Make do with what you've got. I've been stuck in a more ridiculous situation by a ring-knocker, because he thought he was dealing with a textbook situation, not realizing the possibilities of the worst-case scenario. Remember Murphy's Laws of Combat.

Mark,

What is it I am supposed to inquire to you about? What am I missing? No offense intended! I am not purposely ignoring you. Can you fill me in?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Neil Hawkins
4th August 2000, 03:08
So far so good, those of you that said disarm and hog tie the guy, how? What do you do with your weapon whilst this is going on? It's hard to tie a guy with one hand, and as has been mentioned he will probably resist.

As Jeff said it's deliberately obtuse so that we don't run out of things to talk about.:)

Neil

Joseph Svinth
4th August 2000, 08:30
For all you whiners about the equipment, note that I was amazed at the amount of ammunition available, and that it was carried in the weapon.

As for the scenario being outlandish, I once got blessed with watching the Secretary of State's airplane, way out in the middle of the cargo loading area at the biggest international airport in a country whose government was hostile to the US.

On that particular night, as I recall the armament consisted of a 4" Gerber FS-II that was quite unauthorized. No radio. No phone. No backup. Just me and a few million bucks of crypto gear at the airport...

Often the only purpose of guards is deter the honest folks and to show evidence of forced entry.

IchiRiKen1
4th August 2000, 14:28
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
For all you whiners about the equipment, note that I was amazed at the amount of ammunition available, and that it was carried in the weapon.

I have to agree, though that wasn't my first impression of the scenario... Even though the first line of the post said not to get caught up in the validity of the situ, I did...

As far as most guard mounts I have been on, the only "ammunition" we were issued was the trusty, reliable pick/mattock handle! Nothing like an axe handle to the head!

Mark Brecht
4th August 2000, 15:13
Jeff, i agree with your post (and appreciate the support,e.g. LE situation, disarming attempt...).



Originally posted by Kevin Myers
Well, if the request for the airstrike is denied, I'd open fire and attempt to take Ivan out. The rules state you must be in physical danger, right? This would make me feel as if my well being is in question. Soldiers are trained to shoot first and ask questions later. Cops have to be able to articulate and defend their actions after the fact, usually because of the risk to public safety and this isn't a public place. Grab a rifle and try to sneak into NORAD in Colorado Springs and see what happens. As soon as the shootin starts all your buddies will know something bad is in progress and call in the Cavalry. I think that trying to disarm this guy would be a bad mistake. If you were on a mission and were compromised wouldn't you put up a fight? Hey the guy has a automatic weapon which will defeat your hand to hand expert 99.999% of the time. Also, if this is such a Top Secret high speed thing your trying to protect, the bad guy is probably much better trained than you are. Most governments DO NOT send PFC Joe Snuffy to perform these types of missions. Plus he probably has friends in close proximity.

Guys I'm not trying to annoy anyone, but this scenario is something few professional Armys would be dumb enough to do.
Kevin

:smash: Kevin, Kevin on this forum it does not count of what we say we are, but rather what we have to say. I think it would be better if you hold back a bit and see how this develop, rather than telling the rest of us how unprofessional we are...

:D First i must say that i am disapointed in you. You missed the fact that Neil (who was so kind to put up this TDG) is an "Aussie"(:D). His term (in royal English) "torch" refers to a flashlight. So i your first scenario, you would have had a hard time trying to igniate you cookies... (:D don`t worry as you are infantry and not Army Intelligence we won`t hold it against you...).

Regarding your points, they guy is not in the position to fire.

You assume the worst case scenario with Spetnaz, how about a single 15 year old member of a local milita group doing an initation test... (this TDG are here to make us think and explore many possibilities).

We play here to share and learn from each other. Drop the attitude please, and contribute something useful.

Joseph Svinth
4th August 2000, 23:18
Building on Mark's thought about the initiation test, an equally plausible theory is that this is some kind of Our Side Spec Ops soldier in training. His rifle is not pointed at you because he has no real bullets; he is not authorized to hurt anyone; and if he gets caught, oh well, people die during training.

This is not as ludicrous as it sounds. The SEALS test nuclear submarine security and are not authorized to shoot the sailor standing watch with a very real Beretta or M14, and during the 1950s SF had exercises in which black and white soldiers were paired and given missions in some Southern city where the local PD had been told to look out for a salt-n-pepper team that liked raping little white girls. The idea was to give the soldiers some pucker factor.

He hasn't shot; you haven't shot; things are looking good.

You might want to think about who is best silhouetted, too. In general, someone prone and unmoving disappears very quickly while someone standing (and especially someone moving) can be seen forever. Thus unless you are very close, you are much more vulnerable during a shootout than this fellow, even if he does have to roll a bit to bring his weapon in play. Furthermore, it being night, he may not need to shoot. For example, tossing a standard helicopter landing strobe at your feet while rolling to one side means that he won't need to shoot you; you'll be so blind it will be tomorrow before you can see anything but spots. No muss, no fuss, and until you turn off that strobe, everybody but the helicopter coming in for landing will be blind.

My suggestion is to avoid the heroics. Take cover, and then fall back toward the communications equipment as quickly and as safely as possible. Once the reaction force has arrived, it goes hunting with NVGs, thermals, and radios. You meanwhile resume strolling up and down the fence, which is, after all, what you were put out there to do.

My theory is that a guard's job isn't to engage in heroics but to detect and deter intrusion. Furthermore, if you screw up being a hero, then your fellow guards won't know about the intrusion for half an hour. (Fifteen minutes to discover you're missing, fifteen minutes to discover your body.) On the other hand, if you high-crawl back to the phone, the officer of the day will be aware of the intrusion in five minutes and have an eyewitness, and the reaction team will be on hand in fifteen. No, you don't get medals this way, but what the heck, you didn't expect one from guard duty anyway.

WolfHound
4th August 2000, 23:40
I agree with Joe.

The OSI was always messing with the MP's on base when I was in the AF. They'd test the main gate guard (fake base sticker that says "Stop me" on it). Break onto the flight line. Once they even set a box on the counter at the MP's front desk that had "I am a bomb, report me" written on all sides and no one said anything until the base commander stormed in 3 hours later wanting to know why no one had reported it or called a alert about it. So if the perp hasn't started shooting after he knows you've seen him I wouldn't open fire.

Clark Williamson

C. Park
6th August 2000, 15:35
Neil, to answer your question about restraints and method of control- I prefer to chokes. It is a non-lethal and uncomplicated method of bring down someone. Done right, it should give you 30 seconds to a minute to re-gain conciousness. Even if they come to quicker, the person will be dis-oriented and weak. I am assuming the trespasser is wearing clothes, and would improvise ties and a mouth gag out of strips of their apparel, THe key to hog-tying someone here is getting the hands and leg tied first quickly. A knee on the side of there neck will keep them quiet and give you the control needed to reinforce the hog initial ties and mouth gag. I personnally utilized this take-down/restraint using zip-ties cuffs on more than one occasion, albeit I always had a team member covering and assisting me as necessary.

My response to this TDG is how I would react, not what should be SOP. Instead of pointing out the flaws in this TDG, I responded in a manner as I was trained to. Take the initiatives, select the best course of action after assessing the situation, and improvise when necessary. BTW, the nature of the trespasser was never divulged, it could be a lone nutcase or member of a covert assualt team. Tactically right or wrong, it's my take on this scenario going on the info given.

Neil Hawkins
7th August 2000, 22:46
Thanks Charles,

Ok, what have done with your weapon and what did you do with his? How did you get close enough to apply these techniques and what was he doing in the mean time?

Neil

Jeff Cook
7th August 2000, 23:46
For the disarm: your weapon is pointed at him - his is not pointed at you. Tell him to toss his weapon, crawl away from it, spread his legs, hold his arms out to the side. If he tries anything "funny," shoot him.

Applying the flexcuffs while pointing your rifle at him is easy, if you preassemble and link the cuffs properly (link them together). This should be done during PCI (Pre-Combat Inspection). You can apply them one-handed. Again, if he tries anything funny, makes a sudden move to turn over, shoot him.

Back-sling his weapon and move out.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mark Brecht
8th August 2000, 16:01
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
...Applying the flexcuffs while pointing your rifle at him is easy, if you preassemble and link the cuffs properly (link them together...

Jeff,

i disagree with this point. Cuffing a person is usually one of the most dangerous points during an arrest. I remember to hear some statistic, that most LEO get killed while trying to cuff somebody. The process of getting the handcuffs put on, makes the person realize what he has gotten into (same as when you get asked to sign your speeding ticket, that is the point, when you...). 20 seconds of pain or doing time (maybe a very long time, :D with Bubba in the cell), this is the choice, and many decide this as the point to explode in rage...
What i wrote applies of course more to LE situations, but even in this scenario, the assumption of something being is easy, could be become a deadly mistake. BEEEP, minus point for Jeff, for dropping his (mental) guard. :D.

seanwiggins
8th August 2000, 16:38
"Shoot first ask questions Later" thats what I would do

Jeff Cook
8th August 2000, 18:06
Mark,

Let me rephrase. It is easy for me, especially in this scenario.;)

Remember, the intruder is already on the ground face down when you find him. Most LE handcuffing situations are dangerous during the period of time it takes to get the person into a handcuffing position, and that position is usually with the suspect standing. Many things go bad when you (a) try to handcuff while they are standing, which does not apply here; (b) try to handcuff a suspect in a mob situation, which does not apply here; (c) try to put the suspect face down into the SAFEST handcuff position, which does not apply here, as the SUSPECT IS ALREADY FACE DOWN.

It is extremely easy to break contact with a subject that is face down when they become uncooperative. Break contact, and reassess the situation. You have already disarmed him.

Also, in this case, it is necessary to have the firm resolve to shoot if need be. The rules of engagement are different for this scenario; they are strict, but only by military standards. This is not a civilian LE situation, but a military situation with a uniformed intruder with an assault-style weapon penetrating a sensitive military facility. If the subject is uncooperative and tries to grab you or your weapon, shoot him; he's not going to be very effective at an attack while laying on his belly, so I am sure you can pop him before he can get really dangerous. If he just tries to run (he has already tossed his weapon away), make your own decision.

Back at you, Mark! :o

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mark Brecht
8th August 2000, 19:02
Hmmmmmm, Jeff you have some good points, but i see the situtation still not as an easy one. You have no back up on the scene, holding and M-16 with one hand while applying a flexcuff to an suspect with your other hand. He also has at least one visible weapon on him. Sure he is in a prone position, but he is still dangerous...

Jeff Cook
8th August 2000, 20:38
http://www.wabujitsu.com/wabujitsu/snake.jpg

Still is dangerous, but easy for me to handle!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mark Brecht
8th August 2000, 20:45
Jeff,

:D Great response. Cool pic. You win.

PS: As i am a city boy and civilian, what did you pick up there???

PS2: :D If the food is really so bad (that you start BBQ snakes) in the army you should consider staying in the security biz fulltime... (usually free dougnaughts and coffee...as i remember).

Jeff Cook
8th August 2000, 21:10
Hey, Mark, it ain't about winning, it's about not losing!:)

It's a Western Diamondback Rattlesnake (or possibly a Mojave - very similar in appearance).

Actually, rattlesnake tastes pretty darned good. The Eastern diamondbacks here in Florida have a lot more meat on them, though. BTW, the picture is from Ft. Bliss, Macgregor Range, New Mexico. And the snake survived. I moved him to a safe area away from the troops.

As far as the security business and the snake-handling business (which I used to do professionally as well), I would rather handle the snakes. They are more honest.;)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Edited by Jeff Cook on 08-08-2000 at 03:14 PM]

Neil Hawkins
9th August 2000, 01:11
Too many bones for my liking, if I may paraphrase Crocodile Dundee, you can live off it, but it it tastes like *@#$, give me a steak and salad anyday. I could tell some survival stories but they don't have much to do with this.

Jeff, I'm interested in what you do with your weapon whilst 'cuffing him. I'm looking for tactics here, do you put it down? do you hold it in one hand? which hand? Be more specific on how you 'cuff him, he's not co-operating much.

Neil

M Clarke
9th August 2000, 04:41
Hi all,
Very interesting TDG and hearing what all have to say. I'm not a military type and I have never even handled handcuffs but I have done some interesting hojojutsu seminars with rope, cord, neckties and large cables ties, which is what I thought Neil said you are supposed to be carrying. Unless, that is what you mean by flexicuffs. In any case, how do you thread one end of a cable tie through its lock one handed in the dark? I guess you carry them already to go. In our seminars we didn't because we found them easier to carry straight. But we had the "leisure" of doing take down and pins so we could then have free hands to thread the cable ties. If I am right about the use of cable ties in this scenario, I would really like to hear how professionals would apply them.
Thanks and regards

Jeff Cook
9th August 2000, 13:43
Mike,

Flexcuffs are indeed cable ties. Prepare them by pre-threading them through the lock end; take the second tie and pre-thread it through the loop formed by the first tie.

From the prone position with arms stretched straight out to the side, have him elevate one arm and apply the flex-cuff one-handed to that wrist (you are standing to the side where he cannont reach you, with your weapon pointed at his torso). Loop it over his wrist and pull on the ziptie. Doing this one-handed, you may have to "walk-down" the fastener with your thumb and index finger, while holding onto the end with your pinkie finger against your palm. This takes practice.

After that flexcuff is applied, loop your fingers inside the other flexcuff, step towards the suspects' feet, which causes the cuffed arm to abduct toward the torso. When his arm is parallel to his body and almost touching it, step on his arm where the tricep inserts into the elbow joint, at the distal end of the humerous. Apply enough pressure to assist in bending his lower arm up behind his back. Verbally direct him to present his other wrist for cuffing. Apply the second cuff the same way.

Ain't nothing perfect, and we can "what-if" the cuffing procedure forever. Each situation will be different. Practice it over and over, and invent some new modifications to make it work under various conditions.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

M Clarke
10th August 2000, 00:09
Thanks Jeff.

Neil Hawkins
10th August 2000, 07:53
Jeff,

I'm not so sure about the rifle in the hand, the length of it means that you have to lean way off balance to reach his hands with your other hand. I don't have a perfect solution in this scenario, but when I did arresting in the army we usually handed off our weapon to someone else, then applied a shoulder lock (hammer lock, ude garami henka waza) and held it with the knee. That gives both hands to apply the cuffs and control his struggles. If he gets very agro you can put a knife under his ear or something.

As your alone in this case, I would probably sling the rifle high on my back before approaching him (his rifle is well away first of course). As you say the actual putting on the cuffs is open to whatever you've learned but I like to kneel on his shoulder, with my weight low on his back, whilst I do it.

Another way is to approach from above the head, cuff his hands in place behind the neck, then attach a rope or belt and pull this down his back and through his belt to hold them in place, it's less secure but safer to apply. Beside we're talking temporary detention anyway.

I still like the keep well away option, signal with the FLASHLIGHT and cover from a low concealed position.

Neil

Neil Hawkins
12th August 2000, 09:43
As it's gone a bit quiet, how about we turn the tables a bit.

Now you are the guy guy crawling across the grass who gets sprung, what do you do.

Neil

William
13th August 2000, 14:02
Hi Neil and everyone,

I don't think this scenario is all that far-fetched. We just finished pulling Division Guard and one of the sites is the warehouse and extensive grounds of the Division Heavy Drop Rig Site, where riggers prep all the stuff the 82nd (Hey Mitch!) drops when we jump big equipment (humvee's, etc.). Our equipment is a very nice Mossberg with a 5 shot mag, 5 rounds of 00 buck,a flashlight, and a bad attitude because we're stuck pulling guard. Personal gear includes LCE, usually a knife and sometimes flex-cuffs, but flex-cuffs are not part of the equipment we have to have for the duty.

Its hard to say exactly what I would do, but I think I would react something like this: Since he has already seen me, I would yell "HALT" in my best command tone, followed by "DROP YOUR WEAPON". As I did that, if there were a covered position (one offering me protection from any rounds fired), I would move to it while keeping my weapon trained on the trespasser. If there was not one close by, I would get as low to the ground as possible and still keep him in sight (take a knee, or if possible, get in the prone). My next action would depend on what he did at that point. If he did not toss the weapon away, and he turned toward me with it, I would immediately shoot to wound, shooting to kill if that did not stop him. If he simply didn't respond, I would remain where I was and signal the guard post for help, while keeping him under surveillance, ready to fire. When the QRF arrived, we would then establish a security element with weapons trained on the trespasser, while I approached (or whoever was ranking, I suppose)and disarmed him. If he tossed his weapon away, I would remain where I was and instruct him to get on his knees and lock his hands behind his head, fingers intertwined, and cross his legs at the ankles. Then I would signal the guard shack and when reinforcements arrived we would again set up a security element, and take the trespasser into custody.

At least, that's what I think I'd do sitting here behind this keyboard. The reality would probably be a lot more messy.

William Johnson