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View Full Version : Submission Holds - No, Not That Kind



Bob Steinkraus
24th April 2002, 20:56
I considered posting this question both here and on the Judo forum, but I saw that this is not necessarily a welcomed idea, so let's start here.

We were practicing hadaka-jime. (If it is called something else in jujutsu, I mean a rear choke applied with the forearm - choking arm palm down, and palm of that hand gripped in the palm of the other). The defense against that choke is to keep your chin tucked under so the forearm can't get at the throat. My partner, unfortunately, discovered that he could make me tap out by not bothering trying to get at the throat, but by using his forearm to apply pressure on my nose or upper lip. Ouch!

Certainly illegal in judo shiai, and frowned on in randori (we were just fooling around), but it got me thinking.

Most or all of the submission holds I am familiar with are based on the implied threat that you better submit, or I will continue the lock/choke/whatever until you are disabled. An armlock breaks the elbow or shoulder, and seriously impairs your ability to fight after that. A leglock does the same, except you can't walk if you don't give up. A spinelock does even worse - give up or you die or are paralyzed. A choke says "Give up or I will hold the choke until you pass out".

My friend's pressure hold, however, does not hold that kind of implied threat to my fighting ability. Maybe, if I were drunk/stoned/psychotic/enraged enough, I would not give up even if my nose were broken. After that, it would hurt a lot, but I would still be able to fight.

Does your style of jujutsu have any of these kind of pain compliance holds? Can you think of a use for any of them other than sport competition?

Or is it only a valid submission hold if it works whether or not uke gives up?

Any thoughts would be welcomed.

Kit LeBlanc
24th April 2002, 22:46
Welcome to the face crank. They are commonly used in submission grappling, and I think maybe came from catch wrestling...

I have used them several times as pain compliance and a control hold in law enforcement situations. They work well in forcing someone who has turtled to give up an arm for cuffing...better if ya have a partner.

Get a decent one and you will put some pressure on the spine with the twist...particularly if you have ever wrestled with the big body-builder sized submission grapplers, or say our freakishly strong ex-pro-arm wrestler submission instructor. Probably WOULDN'T work against someone inured to pain thru alcohol or drugs or psychosis, I agree...but may give you an opening for something else.

They are also an interesting way to take someone down from a couple positions...say as a defense to a shoot, or from a side entry and head wrap to takedown.

Frankly I would rather take a face crank than a leg lock in the real deal.

MarkF
25th April 2002, 08:06
Bob: a BTW: You can always post a link or state where the post is in another forum. It is one thing to copy/paste a post everywhere, but another when inviting others to respond.

Mark

My own BTW: Are you refering to the standard hadaka jime, IOW, is it the strictly sittning/kneeling one done behind uke? Standing/dragging naked strangle takes the guesswork out in a lot of cases, chin tucked or not. Not especially effective unless you do stand and back up while holding the other in that hold (see Mifune's naked strange).

There are other naked strangles not in anyone's syllabus, much less in judo, some more effective, some not even meant to choke but to hold. There is one which comes in when doing kata-gatame. Make sure the arm goes around the neck, push down with your weight at the top while raising the arm under the neck. Talk about a neck crank! It is meant more as a holding technique than a strangle but sometimes that is necessary. Kit would probably agree if there isn't back up on the spot.

Walker
25th April 2002, 08:07
In a situation anything that gets an aggressor to quit would be by definition a submission technique. Somewhere I ran across a distinction between submission holds and immobility holds that got me to think. In the former, one is caused to quit and in the latter, one is forced into immobility because to move would cause meaningful injury. So the face crank in your case was a submission, but was unlikely to be an immobilization.
Another point was that pain may cause a submission, but it could also produce a spastic response giving one even more to deal with.

Mike Williams
25th April 2002, 11:32
In my very limited experience, pain compliance techniques (in randori or sub-grappling situations) are best used as a distraction technique to set up a submission hold, rather than an end in themselves. (Although presumably a well applied face crank could result in a dislocated jaw or broken nose, which makes it closer conceptually to a lock or choke)

We have a couple of clowns in our club who will often go for pinching/gouging/pressure-point type stuff while rolling. I've tried to get them to stop, but I've also realised that if I suck it up and don't worry about the pain or bruising I can usually avoid the tap-out. Not only that, but because they're concentrating on what they're doing (and because they're expecting a certain response from me), they present openings for me to exploit.

Disclaimer: I'm a rank beginner, and all I know is based on rolling in the dojo. No idea how any of this applies to 'real' encounters.

Cheers,

Mike

Mark Barlow
25th April 2002, 17:26
We use a similar pain/compliance technique against the jaw from hadakajime and mae hadakajime. The way we apply it, there is a very real threat of breaking the jaw. It is also useful when uke has tucked their chin or otherwise avoided the initial choke. Crank the jaw to create an opening for another choke.

dakotajudo
6th May 2002, 14:30
This is something of a timely topic for me.

We've got a new person coming to our judo club with some training in BJJ and he's tried using some leg locks during randori, so I've been reviewing leg holds with the club.

It seems to me that most leg holds are pain-compliance holds - if you let up the pressure uke has a pretty good chance of escaping. In contrast, ashi-garami (from Kodokan katame-no-kata) in more an immobilization - even if you don't apply the technique to the point of inducing pain uke is still immobilized.

So I've been thinking why Kodokan judo places so much emphasis on elbow locks and neglects wrist and leg locks. It is my opinion that elbow locks, both due to the nature of the joint (hinge) and to the relative weakness of the arm, are easier to implement as immobilizations than are wrist and leg locks.

Wrist holds are easier for uke to slip; given the larger range of motion of the wrist, while leg locks are more dangerous to tori - you're dealing with the largest muscle group in the body and locking one leg too often exposes you to the other leg.

Pain-compliance are a great way to win a match, but unless you're willing to cripple someone they're of limited use in self-defense. What happens when you release the pain?


On a related note, there's always been some debate of the efficacy of pain-compliance in aikido. The consensus seems to be that while wrist locks are painful they should be mostly used for kuzushi, to get uke to the ground where a arm immobilization can be applied. The pain is only secondary.

On another related note, I gave up a judo match to hadaka-jime - not because I was being choked out but because it wasn't worth the pain. I had some pain swallowing for a few days after. My mistake was going to a tournament to get a chance to randori with someone other than my students; I ended up facing someone who only wanted to win (he lost one match in juji-gatame; the ref stopped the match because the lock was fully applied but the losing judoka complained to his opponent later that he'd not really submitted).