The 11´th dan

[Martin H]

Hello everyone.

And now for a very stupid question.
I was once told a myth about J.Kano, when recieving his 10´th dan from whomever (I dont have my references handy at the moment), immediately introduced a 11´th dan in Judo, because he did not concider himself a master and tought he still had lots to learn.

Could anyone confirm or crush this myth?
And if it can be confirmed, is the 11´th dan still on the books in Judo (I assume noone have achieved it).

-
Martin Hultgren

I don't know if that particular story is true, but according to his writings, Dr. Kano definitely felt there was no pinnacle to judo improvement even for himself. According to Dr. Kano, there is no limit on how much progress or improvement one can make in their judo training. Thus, Dr. Kano believed that if someone achieved a stage higher than 10th dan, "one transcends such things as colours [sic] and grades and therefore returns to a white belt, thereby completing the full circle of Judo, as of life." After his death, the Kodokan introduced a 12th dan and promoted Kano to this rank posthumously.

Just in case a living person should ever be promoted to a rank higher than 10th dan, the Kodokan Committee decided the white belt worn by such a person should be "about twice as wide as the ordinary belt" to prevent any confusion with a novice's white belt. To date, Dr. Kano is the only person raised to 12th dan and given the title of shihan. There is no 11th dan in judo.

[Edited by budokai on 08-03-2000 at 04:55 PM]

[Brian Griffin]

Hmmmmm...

Actually, Kano never received a 10th dan from anybody. There were no dan ranks before Kano; he invented them. As Founder, all Judo rank traces its authority, ultimately, back to Kano himself. In that sense, he stands outside the Judo rank structure.

The system he devised included six kyu grades, and twelve (12) dan grades. At the time of his death in 1938, he had only made a couple of promotions to 10th dan, and none higher. Since then, only a few 10th dan have been awarded, and I doubt whether a higher grade will ever awarded (although it's possible in theory).

The theoretical _juichidan_ would wear a red obi (like 9th & 10th) while 12th would wear a double-width white obi.

I've heard rumours that Kano was posthumously awarded 12th dan (by the Kodokan, I guess) but I have no way to confirm that. I've also been told that, since Kano is _outside_ the rank system, his theoretical rank would have to be at least 13th dan (?!) Anybody have more info ?

Brian,

See my previous post. This is all information directly from the Kodokan and provided in "Illustrated Kodokan Judo." There is no rumor involved or myths to crush.

[MarkF]

In a sense, Brian may be correct in that Kano may not have had rank in judo as the founder, but essentially, Don is correct.

Orignally, there were seven dan, and later it was upped to ten. There are tons of stories of the how and why, but Kano himself never intended 11 or 12 dan. He did, however, in photos of him demonstrating kata, wear a black belt, but never red, or red and white. Kano is on record for the quote Don gives, and his reason for "upping the ante," so to speak, was simply to put himself out of reach of "perfection," thus juidan (11) and junidan (12). Every time his students made noises about grading him higher, he always maintained if they did this, he would raise the bar until it was out of reach. He kept his promise, but, unfortunately, the Kodokan did not, and graded him junidan after his death.

Also, juidan (11-dan) was also a white belt, twice as wide as those of a novice.

Since Kano, while wearing judogi (not often, as he preferred kimono or hakama), did wear a black belt, he did accept that he was dan grade, at least by inference).

A side note. The Kodokan has recently announced that it will no longer be awarding any more ten-dans, so the IJF's grading of Antonius Geesink to judan (there is one other from England, but his name escapes me) can be taken for what it is worth. I do believe he is graded rokudan by the Kodokan.

[Edited by MarkF on 08-04-2000 at 12:04 AM]

[efb8th]

Hi, Mark.

The only man in England who could possibly go to tenth dan is Trevor P. Leggett of the Budokwai. I understand he is pushing 100 years and still gardening and writing treatises on Zen. Leggett was the first European to attain rokudan. He was the first non-japanese godan in 1952, when E.J. Harrison wrote his "MANUAL OF JUDO." I do not know how long he had held the rank at that point. It strikes me that fifty years beyond godan would make him a prime candidate.

[Joseph Svinth]

An E-mail I received yesterday from Diana Birch of the Kano Society:

***

It is with great sadness that I have to report the death of Trevor Leggett. He died of a stroke at St Mary's Hospital during the night of Tuesday 1st August 2000. He had been recovering from an infection brought on by an earlier admission and in typical Leggett style was asking for a room where he could get back to his work whilst in hospital.

Details of funeral and memorial will follow as soon as they are available.

***

details also on Kano society Website http://www.kanosociety.org/news.htm

and the Budokwai members site http://www.budokwai.org/news.htm

***

As for judo rank, Mr. Leggett was still ranked 6-dan at his death. As far as the Kodokan is concerned, if you don't pay your money, you don't get promoted. Send the check on time, however, and the promotions come like clockwork.

[Joseph Svinth]

Charlie Palmer is the British 10-dan. He is the president of the BJA and the rank is, I believe, from the IJF.

[MarkF]

Thank you Joe.
I am very sorry to here of Leggett's passing. He will be sorly missed. The Budokwai should be kicking itself hard in the ass for turning down a lecture by this man. Shame on them!

Yes, Palmer was the name but I couldn't remember his given name.

Concerning the Kodokan: I was hearing as a teenager that the Kodokan was having "problems," and this was in the sixties. Even then the word was that the Kodokan was not the best place to learn judo, and even when invited with all (Kodokan) fees waived, it was still too expensive. Usually, your first instincts are good ones. Mine was to go. My instructor recommended against it.

[Brian Griffin]

I was also very saddened to hear of the passing of Trevor Leggett---We have lost a giant.

For Mr. Cunningham: Thanks for the info. Were those quotes from the '55 edition? As I'm sure you know, the current version just says something like "the red belt is worn from 9th dan up" with no mention of 11th or 12th or a double-wide white belt.
Just so nobody thinks I just make this stuff up, I checked my bookshelves to see if I could find an explicit reference. Here's one:
from "Judo for Women, a Manual of Self-Defense" by Ruth Horan (Bonanza Books 1965) p.2
Rokkyû or Sixth Kyû--White Belt
Gokyû or Fifth Kyû--White Belt
Yonkyû/Shikyû or Fourth Kyû--White Belt
Sankyû or Third Kyû--Brown Belt
Nikyû or Second Kyû--Brown Belt
Ikkyû or First Kyû--Brown Belt
Shodan or First Dan--Black Belt
Nidan or Second Dan--Black Belt
Sandan or Third Dan--Black Belt
Yodan or Fourth Dan--Black Belt
Godan or Fifth Dan--Black Belt
Rokudan or Sixth Dan--Red and White or Black Belt
Shichidan or Seventh Dan--Red and White or Black Belt
Hichidan or Eighth Dan--Red and White or Black Belt
Kudan or Ninth Dan--Red or Black Belt
Jûdan or Tenth Dan--Red or Black Belt
Jûichidan or Eleventh Dan--Red or Black Belt
Jûnidan or Twelfth Dan--White (double width) or Black Belt
*Shidan or Doctor or Pastmaster--White (double width) or Black Belt
The Tenth Dan is at present the highest rank ever awarded to a Judoka (Judo player) other than Professor Kano.
__________
*Conferred only upon Professor KanoI don't know whether "shidan" is a typo that was meant to read "shihan" or if it represents another dan-grade, perhaps combined with "shi" as in "bushi" or maybe "shi" as in "shihan." In any case, it distinguishes Kano's special (un-numbered) _dan_ from the common, garden-variety twelfth-dan:)

Just to confuse things further, here's a quote from another book originally published the same year:
from "This is Judo for Women" by Kazuo Ito, 9th Dan (Tokyo News Service, Ltd.) p.5
The Dan holder's grades start with 1 Dan (Sho Dan) and go up to 9 Dan. The black belt is for from 1 Dan (Sho Dan) to 5 Dan, and the red and white striped belt for from 6 to 8 Dan, and the red belt for 9 Dan.
However, holders of from 6 to 8 Dan may also wear the black belt alternatively.Ito was a student of Mifune, and a member of the Kodokan Council.

[MarkF]

It just goes to show you how judo is not nearly so specific, especially in matters such as these. So when I get my judan, I am going to wear a black belt. You know, just in case of confusion.:smokin:

[Joseph Svinth]

Mark -- do they make black belts that long?

[MarkF]

Joe,
They make them as long as confusion has reigned, but dan, I mean damn, it is going to be a long one.:eek:

[Edited by MarkF on 08-08-2000 at 05:00 AM]

I need a judo promotion, too. My old black belt keeps shrinking.

(Yes, the Kano quote is from the earlier issue of Kodokan Judo.)

[Brian Griffin]

Mr. Cunningham posted some info earlier that came from the 1955 edition of "Illustrated Kodokan Judo." As luck would have it, I recently came into possession of a copy of that illustrious tome. It was instructive to read the section he quoted in it's full context. Here's what he wrote:

Originally posted by budokai 08-03-2000 02:53 PM
I don't know if that particular story is true, but according to his writings, Dr. Kano definitely felt there was no pinnacle to judo improvement even for himself. According to Dr. Kano, there is no limit on how much progress or improvement one can make in their judo training. Thus, Dr. Kano believed that if someone achieved a stage higher than 10th dan, "one transcends such things as colours [sic] and grades and therefore returns to a white belt, thereby completing the full circle of Judo, as of life." After his death, the Kodokan introduced a 12th dan and promoted Kano to this rank posthumously.

Just in case a living person should ever be promoted to a rank higher than 10th dan, the Kodokan Committee decided the white belt worn by such a person should be "about twice as wide as the ordinary belt" to prevent any confusion with a novice's white belt. To date, Dr. Kano is the only person raised to 12th dan and given the title of shihan. There is no 11th dan in judo.

[Edited by budokai on 08-03-2000 at 04:55 PM]
I understand this to say that:

(1) there is no provision for an 11th dan in Judo

(2) there _is_ a 12th dan in Judo, and the Kodokan created and awarded it (posthumously) to Kano--they also gave him the title of shihan

(3) any rank higher than 10th dan would be marked by a double-wide white obi

Let's look at the source of these quotes, in context:

from "Illustrated Kodokan Judo" Kodansha 1955, p.32
Since there is no limit on the amount one can progress and improve due to the study of the complete Judo, there is theoretically no limit on the grade one can receive. Therefore if one does reach a stage above 10th Dan, and, here it must be stressed that the philosophical aspects of Judo with a complete understanding of the principle of "Maximum-Efficiency and Mutual Welfare and Benefit" would be more than essential, there is no reason why he should not be promoted to 11th Dan. If he should be of such mettle as to deserve further recognition he would be raised to 12th Dan and given the title of _Shihan_, which until now has only been applied to our founder. _Shihan_ would be more the equivalent of "Doctor" or "Pastmaster" although there is no word in English which describes fully the meaning of this word when applied to a person such as we describe. A further idea of Kano Shihan is that when one reaches this stage, one transcends such things as colours and grades and therefore returns to a white belt, thereby completing the full circle of Judo, as of life. For the purposes of recognition, however, it has been decided that the white belt worn by a Shihan should be about twice as wide as the ordinary belt, so that there is no chance of a beginner, for example, making a terrible mistake.

A careful reading of this section leads me to the following insights:

(1) there is an explicit provision for the possibility of 11th dan, and even higer grades in Judo. There is, in fact, _no_ upper limit.

(2) there is an explicit reference to the possibility of someone achieving 12th dan in Judo (other than Kano)

(3) anyone advancing as far as 12th dan would also be given the title of _shihan_

(4) until now, the title of _shihan_ has only been applied to Kano

(5) it does _not_ actually refer to Kano as having the rank of 12th dan, or any rank at all--only the title _shihan_

(6) the theoretical future _shihan_ (who would also be 12th dan) should wear a double-wide white obi
(--so the mere 11th dan would have to make do with his tattered old red belt)

(7) after the _shihan_ level, although there is no limit on possible further levels of achievement, there is no point in numbering them, or awarding different colored belts to mark them--so we stop counting after 12th dan


Exploring the book further, I came across the following info in one of the appendices:
from "Illustrated Kodokan Judo" Kodansha 1955, p.284

Ranks in Judo
The present Grading system of the Kodokan Judo was established by the late Prof. Kano.

[snip]

Rokkyû..............means....Sixth Kyû
Gokyû....................".........Fifth Kyû.........White Belt
Shikyû or Yonkyû..".........Fourth Kyû

Sankyû..................".........Third Kyû
Nikyû.....................".........Second Kyû....Brown Belt (Violet Belt in the Junior division--boys)
Ikkyû.....................".........First Kyû

Shodan..................".........First Dan
Nidan.....................".........Second Dan
Sandan..................".........Third Dan.........Black Belt
Yodan....................".........Fourth Dan
Godan....................".........Fifth Dan

Rokudan................".........Sixth Dan
Shichidan..............".........Seventh Dan...Belt of Red and White Sections (or Black Belt)
Hachidan...............".........Eighth Dan

Kudan....................".........Ninth Dan
Jûdan....................".........Tenth Dan.........Red Belt (or Black Belt)
Jûichidan..............".........Eleventh Dan

Jûnidan.................".........Twelfth Dan......White Belt (or Black Belt)
Shihan...................".........Doctor or Pastmaster
(see notice)

Notes:
(1) The title of "Shihan" ("Doctor" or "Pastmaster") is conferred on a Judoka who has been promoted to 12th Dan. This title has not in fact been conferred on any Judoka except the late Prof. Kano, our founder who awarded it to himself. The colour of the belt to be worn by a Shihan is white, to indicate that it stands above both Dan and Kyû coloured belts; but it is wider than that worn by the first three Kyû grades so as to distinguish it from them. However a Shihan may also wear an ordinary black belt if he so wishes.

As you can see, this compares quite favorably with the excerpt I posted from Ruth Horan's 1965 book.

We also gain some further insights:

(1) Kano is said to have awarded himself the title of _shihan_; it was not granted to him by the Kodokan.

(2) The _shihan_ title is listed separately in the table, suggesting it is something distinct and separate from the 12th dan. This also suggests it's possible to have one without having the other.

(3) The grades listed, including 11th dan, 12th dan, and the _shihan_ title, are said to have been established by Kano, not created later by the Kodokan.

(4) I can find no reference to Kano being awarded 12th dan by the Kodokan, or of him awarding it to himself.


So, based on the foregoing, I believe it's reasonable to conclude that Kano's Judo rank is _shihan_, and that he has no Dan grade, self-awarded or otherwise. If some future Judo genius ever rises beyond 10th Dan, to the 11th and finally the 12th Dan, he will have the honor of sharing the _shihan_ title with our founder. If this Mythic Genius continues to progress, his further advancement must then lie outside the realm of numbered grades and coloured belts.

[MarkF]

Hi, Brian,
This will be discussed from time to time, and there will always be differences "read in" to what was said by the Kodokan committee.

I have that issue as well, and although very tired and tattered due to my neglect, I have never understood it to mean that Kano graded himself to anything.

This book, and even more so late edtions, say different things about when and how Kano "graded" himself. I just ordered a book which now has been reissued and one I have never owned, but we will see. These same people in committe at the Kodokan in the fifties have also said, though not included in this manual, that Kano berrated his students for attempting to rank him to any level, and to do so, he would put it out of reach, IE, that if he were given tenth dan, he would raise it higher, etc. These manuals from the Kodokan are just that and do have many contributors, ones who thought Kano a "genius" and should be held out in some form or another apart from ordinary judoka.

Now if we consider that Kano has also stated that judo must be learned as he instructed, and in the order in which to learn waza, it is also said that he made nage waza to be most important if the other waza were not available. Personally, since this book, in all its variations says this, and that Kano said, paraphrased, that to stop judo training is not to be tolerated, among other rules. As this is not possible for most for a lifetime, the additons have added these caveats to make it comprehensible. There is very little about Kano which is quoted and witnessed. His only goal was to teach judo, and he lamented the lack of qualified teachers before he died, so when he says that a return to "Kodokan randori" is of immeditate importance, is this to mean his randori or that praciticed by people who have studied at the Kodokan? In his later years, he spent little time there. Much can be opined to what this meant, and therefore, much of what the Kodokan itself said concerning Kano and what his thoughts were, is to be taken only at face value. It can be interpreted that he promoted himself to junidan or shihan or whatever, but no one has specifically quoted Kano as announcing this to all to here, otherwise, it would not be in such dispute.

This is only my opinion, but when someone says that Mr. Kano did just that, as are the stories which came out of the daito ryu "history" which claim certain waza which can only be "demonstrated" by master and a trained uke, as to do otherwise, would be dangerous for anyone who wanted to experience one of these techniques. Also, T. Takeda also said is father was a "wall passer." Of course there are no such claims about Kano. He also never mentioned the "soft" judoka, but this is making a comeback, if for no other reason than to say that this is what Kano meant by the constant of "mimimum effort and maximum efficiency." He is said to have been very unhappy the direction judo had taken, and repeated what he meant that one must never use brute force to do well in competition, that waza will win out and strength should be centered only in the shoulders and hips, and then only in the instant required to achieve kake, or whatever the technues one was utilizing in randori. But just like in ryu of jujutsu, time has a way of changing things to fit our vision of the world, and the soviet judo players proved, at least in winning, that size does matter, thus the need for weight classes and the removal of the openweight divisions. This is contrary to what judo is about, but the facts are what they are. Personally, I can't wait 'til this adage is fact, and it is, if you are in judo for the long haul, when the two or three techniques one uses in shiai no longer hold up in the real world. There are many now who have no interest or cannot physically compete, but the number of schools which do more than touch on self-defense kata (goshin jutsu) or even nage no kata, or participating in kata tournament are nearly inpossible. I have run into some who have many years of judo training, and when the discussion hits on "well, what about atemiwaza no kata," and the usual description of what they do does not involve striking in any way. This is truly one of the sadder commentaries on judo today, but I know you have a vast storehouse of knowledge, and this, of course does not apply. It is only an example of what can happen when someone takes the term "forbidden" and then does the same with these forms, literally. The Kodokan is not innocent in this.

The other day, I was making my monthly tour of the judo forum at http://www.ijf.org and the question of "jumping juji-gatame was again raised, as someone wanted to know if it were legal. I am only certified in my state to officiate at shiai, but the rules clearly state that if a true waza was not attempted to bring uke to the mat, then "dragging" an opponent from the standing position to katami waza is not a proper move, and can be dangerous, as well. If one can grab an armlock and then uke goes to the floor because he is resisting, then that is different. Here is a good example of "a judgement call," as some will not allow it but others will. Personally, dragging someone to the mat, or jumping into a mat technique such as this which is cinched before uke gets there, he/she will get one warning (if a point tournament-we don't have many here) than an immediate keikoku is called and the opponent, or victim, gets credit for waza-ari. Either way, do it twice and you are out of the tournament (direct hansokumake). I have heard this story beginning in the sixties and there is still an argument, not over the technique, but what is achieved as an attempt before the armlock. Otherwise, it is a very nice move, and one I approve of, but only in context of self-defense. That's just me:) My point was (sometimes I forget to make a point) that one person had called the Kodokan about it and asked Murata, curator of the museum there, and that he had said it was perfectly within the rules. Mr. Murata has answered a few questions of my own, and is very nice, but the Kodokan long ceased to be rule maker, as the IJF makes them today. I am sure he deserves his nanadan very much, but to answer so flippently about something which is not his territory, is not the response I would expect. Instead, I would give the name of the head shimban or officiating body of the IJF, or the person's national organization to answer that (referee training and seminars are held, at the least, once a year, and too many times in this isstance of the Olympics).

So while I would like to believe everything attributed to Mr. Kano to be true, some are not, and I doubt seriously, a man of Mr. Kano's stature (he was the same height as me:D ), would announce than he is now shihan, junidan, or anything else, as he had always intended the white/black belt, and possibly brown, to be a watermark of where your level in training is located. As Kano applied the "circle of judo" to mean the same thing in life, then the only thing a "perfect" judoka could be after attaining this perfection (10-dan), is to be a student again, and though it is possible, he wanted no part in his many students' plans to grade him there as he believed perfection could not be achieved, but if so, then eleven and twelve would be the first of this new class of student.

Anyway, sorry for the long and drawn out post, but I like the subject, and I fight for judo to be accepted as it was meant to be. "To better one's self." This can be accomplished in many ways, and he had strived to make this pleasing, but totally unimportant in the scheme of things.

My two c-notes :wave:

Sincerely,

Mark

[William F. Kincaid]

Well Mark once again I agree with your views, and it is sad to see Judo heading this way. Hopefully with more of us out there Judo can get back to more of a Martial art (as far as other martial arts are concerned) and not just a martial sport (which being a martial sport does have some good qualities, just not for me).

About the Jumping Juji-Gatame....
:confused:One of my peers while I was coming up through the ranks in Judo showed me a book from either the 50's or 60's that showed a Juji-Gatame type throw, but alas that was many brain cells ago.:laugh: Is this the "Jumping Juji-Gatame" you were referring to?

About Kano Shihan.....
:idea: It seems to me by Kano Shihan always adding another rank when he was promoted higher was due to (like you and others I have said)his not wanting to be viewed as the pinnacle of Judo. Also could it have been the simple fact that he wanted rank or grade to be just an indication of where on the ladder you are concerning knowledge and skill. We all know that there is no end to knowledge and skill. So there is no end to rank or grade

Kano had to see this, the man was a teacher for crying out loud. Why didn't the Kodokan? Actually they did see it but they were so "indebted to Kano shihan" as far as they were concerned, that they decided to make him the pinnacle anyway.

But then again these are just my views on the matter

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by William F. Kincaid
...It seems to me by Kano Shihan always adding another rank when he was promoted higher was due to (like you and others I have said)his not wanting to be viewed as the pinnacle of Judo.

Does anybody have any evidence, from any source, that anybody ever promoted Kano to any Judo rank whatsoever? Alive OR dead?

I personally doubt anyone had the cojones to be that presumptuous.

As far as titles...let's not forget that Kano earned a _shihan_ license in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, and later a _menkyo kaiden_ in Kito Ryu. He was entitled to be called "Shihan," and seems merely to have retained the use of that title after the founding of Kodokan.

[MarkF]

Yes, William we do agree a lot:

orignally posted by William:

Well Mark once again I agree with your views, and it is sad to see Judo heading this way. Hopefully with more of us out there Judo can get back to more of a Martial art (as far as other martial arts are concerned) and not just a martial sport (which being a martial sport does have some good qualities, just not for me).



It has been heading this way for a while now, but it has just gotten worse, much worse, in the last few years or so. That was when the rules of contest became so cumbersome, that even at the little invitationals out here, I must review signs and calls (We still do it much like the old ways in most, but the state tournaments, EG, The AAUs, it is ridiculous) before and during the matches. If it had stopped with rules for the color of the dogi, and two judges in the corners for those matches which do not end with ippon, I would have been happy. They have effectively removed katamiwaza from tournaments because of penalties for "passivity." Remember those matches of the really good BBs who would stand in a grip, motionless, waiting for one or the other to flinch? Those were exiting as hell. Now, they would be "urged" to move on, giving the one with the defensive grip a penalty (shido) equal to koka, and then upward toward actually being banned from the competition (direct hansokumake). I love shiai, and that is the reason I stayed involved after I quit, but Geez, I fear this year's Olympics will be do or die for judo if the new rules do not make it more attractive, and no one knows how to watch a match to begin with. The idea of the new rules was to increase interest, and therefore, learn to watch. There are so many rules that they have scheduled officials conferences and practice before and during this year's tournament.


One of my peers while I was coming up through the ranks in Judo showed me a book from either the 50's or 60's that showed a Juji-Gatame type throw, but alas that was many brain cells ago. Is this the "Jumping Juji-Gatame" you were referring to?

Well, the closest throw I can think of in which a jump of some sort would have to be done is kani basami, the scissors throw. An arm bar can be applied in this throw, but there are throws in which armlocks can be applied before, during, and after. Like I said, you can do a jumping juji gatame, but it has been prohibited from shiai as long as I can remember. I did learn it early on, but jumping is literally that; jumping, dragging and cinching all before you hit the mat. It can do severe damage if not done properly. The best way to eliminate injuries is by prohibiting it. In randori, it can be practiced, but not utilized in tournament play, but the question most officals have, is in recognizing good waza, an attempted throw, or a scoring one, in which you apply the armlock. It has always been one of judgement by the shimban. If the "drag down" is close enough to a technique, it will be allowed. Maybe it should be allowed without question, but the line between applying judo waza and wrestling is a fine one. I am talking about overt moves in which uke is dragged downward with the express purpose of cinching this arm lock before hitting the mat. I suppose you could distinguish it as they do in baseball with the spitter. If you are applying saliva to better the grip, that is not illegal. If you apply something, or scuff the ball while doing this, it isn't. In basketball, a fine line was always inferred when going to the basket, and if you are going up, then it is charging. Going down when you collide, it is a foul, and the shot counts. Now, they have made it worse because of the lines under the basket. If you are within the lines, well, it makes it automatically one way or the other, even when it appears to be a charge or a foul. Too much encroachment by the officials.

Now, once you are on the ground, and go for an armlock, and persist, you may be penalized for passivity. If you think you are using good waza in dragging and then jumping into juji gatame, it is up to the shimban as to what you did. It is ridiculous. Oh, yes, to answer your question, it may be. I would have to see it, but even then, in a still picture, you never know :burnup:


It seems to me by Kano Shihan always adding another rank when he was promoted higher was due to (like you and others I have said)his not wanting to be viewed as the pinnacle of Judo. Also could it have been the simple fact that he wanted rank or grade to be just an indication of where on the ladder you are concerning knowledge and skill. We all know that there is no end to knowledge and skill. So there is no end to rank or grade

Kano had to see this, the man was a teacher for crying out loud. Why didn't the Kodokan? Actually they did see it but they were so "indebted to Kano shihan" as far as they were concerned, that they decided to make him the pinnacle anyway.



I think you are right on both counts. Kano has been quoted on many occasions that this is all the grade meant. It was a watermark to show your general level of training, and to be used as this in the dojo only. This is one reason for not allowing a student to wear dogi and obi while coming or leaving. It is a "sin" to advertise your training.

I have never read where he refused any rank which was implied or enforced, but his was only to say that at 10-dan, you have mastered the entire syllabus of judo. He also said this applied in your life style, as well as the dojo, so he believed no one could do this. When it was brought to his attention that this was indeed possible in his case, he did raise it, and after 10-dan, the only thing left was to be a a student. It may have been in place sometime before his death, but things like grading were not important as such, and today, there are really only, at best, educated guesses as to what prevailed then. Kano did, however, licence his students as he saw fit. There were no tests for advancement. You were or you weren't. A lot played into this, and those who believe testing to be a necessary tool are not basing it on Kano's "circle of life." Things do change, however, and any testing done would have to have purpose, something which Mr. Kano did not envision. This again, goes with the evolvement of JMA. I don't do it, and neither have my teachers, but after ikkyu, I rarely grade anyone. Only one shodan since I opened a dojo for myself. This is the third I've tried to make work, so I may just be stubborn as an ass.:D

I think the Kodokan in those days was trying to be fair. I doubt any real collusion or other incitements, but since then, the Kodokan has ceased to be the best place to study judo. But it is an historical root to the early Kodokan so in that, and training and living as they do may be as close as anyone will get. Money, no matter how it is paid, is at the route now to Kodokan teaching licenses. No one can do so without fees, but in building and maintaing the current "honbu," it is expensive, but there should be alternate forms of payment, as well.

Rather than calling judo "sport martial art," I would say complete martial art, instead, or as the current head of US Judo Inc. calls it: a combative sport. Frankly, there is some form of combat and sport in all martial arts, as kyudo/kyujutsu had comeptition. Even in other koryu, it has been that way since forever, probably. The ryuha of jujutsu had challenges all the time, and after the banning of the sword, it only increased. Now, some of these involved life and limb, but it still was a contest, and even if you only include the kyu/dan system of licensing, there is much too much competition for that. Martial art or sport, I teach Kodokan judo, as I am sure do you. Kano also held menkyo from two schools of jujutsu, and possibly a third. Even in this system, there is competition. How many are beginning to claim kaiden or some equal level of "mastery?":look:

Mark