PDA

View Full Version : Theory or Fact?



Dave Fulton
27th April 2002, 04:20
I recently started studying Jo and have a question the classical training. I understand that sparring is not a part of the classical training, but I'm curious to know if anyone has done any kind of extra-curricular sparring. I'm not talking about sports type sparring. I'm talking about using sparring as a laboratory to validate their understanding of and ability to apply the art. If so, I'd be curious to hear details about how they approached the sparring and what they discovered.

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton.

tcasella
27th April 2002, 06:41
I don't know if this will be of any help to you because I don't have that much experience with the Jo however, I do use the Bo and the Hanbo quite a bit in training/sparring and the majority of the techniques that I have learned are fairly sound. I have also noticed that alot of the techniques can transfer from one size "staff/cudgel" to another. I am in Law Enforcement so I find this pretty handy sometimes. Hope this helps
:toast:

Dave Fulton
29th April 2002, 02:58
No one? I am surprised.

To clarify, I am not criticizing the classical training for not including sparring. I am just curious to know if anyone has ever gotten curious about applying their art against a resisting opponent in real time and, if so, what they did and what they discovered.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton.

Tom Christy
29th April 2002, 05:04
Mr. Fulton,

A long time ago Wayne Muromoto (of Furyu magazine fame) posted a story relating to this topic on the Iaido-L list that you might find interesting.

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9512&L=iaido-l&P=R5618&m=4280

Enjoy,

Tom Christy

FastEd
29th April 2002, 08:26
I'm not sure how anyone can truly "spar" with a real Bo,Jo or Hando without getting seriously injured or killed. So I would be interested in if Tcasella could elaborate..!

Quote:
"I'm not talking about sports type sparring. I'm talking about using sparring as a laboratory to validate their understanding of and ability to apply the art."

I would suggest that you keep an open mind on the subject..personally I think that "sports type sparring" as you put it, is an excellent way to develope the sense of timeing you need to operate at (Without paying for it with your life..that is). Also there are many types of sparring to be found out in Budo land and not all of it is the "sports type".

john mark
29th April 2002, 11:29
Mr. Fulton,

I recommend that you read three things:

1. Classical Budo -- Draeger

2. Armstrong's essay, The Koryu Bujutsu Experience in Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan (http://koryu.com/store/book1.html); and

3. Bristol's essay in Diane Skoss' new book. It will be available soon at http://www.koryu.com/.

tcasella
29th April 2002, 11:49
Hmmm...good point. When I posted my reply I was not taking the question as "literal". Yes, full contact sparring would definetly be painful...:laugh:
I was refering more to a controlled type of training, but I do however know that the techniques that do cross-over into the various size sticks do work in "combat" application.
:toast:

FastEd
29th April 2002, 22:43
Originally posted by tcasella
[B
I was refering more to a controlled type of training, but I do however know that the techniques that do cross-over into the various size sticks do work in "combat" application.
:toast: [/B]


I concure, thanks for the clarification.

:)

Ron Rompen
30th April 2002, 01:17
Since someone has started this thread, here's a related (sort of) topic; sparring with 'boffer' weapons.

We have purchased a few sets of escrima, jo and bo to allow (nearly) full contact matches. Absolutely a blast :D :D :D :D :D

The only time I've had MORE fun was at the CMAC open in Guelph a year ago, when we had full contact weapons sparring with (no shit guys) POOL NOODLES! And required to wear full kendo armour at the same time.....I could barely fight for laughing so hard.

I normally take weapons class VERY seriously, but the chance to wind up and REALLY hit someone is great.....makes you realize just how useful (or not) all those kata techniques really are.

souran
30th April 2002, 16:44
we use two types of sparring:

one with the wooden jo for throws, locks and submission holds

one with a fukuro jo.

we use two different stlyes of fukuro jo (and shinai for that matter), the older version being similar to the shinai in kendo. the bamboo staff is cut into staves at both ends, left solid in the middle, and filled with straw or foam to maintain the proper shape. when some of the staves collapse underneath others, it tends to make for painful edges.

the other, newer, variant is a smaller diamter wooden staff/dowel with a foam coating. certainly easier to manufacture.

oh, and as the name fukuro implies, both variants are covered in fabric.

heavy contact sparring with these weapons is not advisable, as they do break. heavy contact sparring is painful also with these weapons, and not really necessary to work on your technique.

hope this helps

Dave Fulton
2nd May 2002, 03:12
Ed,

When I said "I'm not talking about sports type sparring.", I was thinking of the current state of affairs in tournament karate's point sparring and modern Kendo competition. It is not unusual in tournament karate, to see competitors use unrealistic attacks and disregard defense because they know that they do not points for defense. I understand Kendo competitions suffer the same types of problems. I can't speak from personal experience on Kendo though, but this is what I've heard.

I was trying to get information and opinions on sparring with realistic applications of the strategies and tactics of the art, which I think would be more beneficial than sparring unrealisticly. This is why I also referred to using sparring "as a laboratory to validate their understanding of and ability to apply the art." No offense was intended.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

INFINOO
7th May 2002, 01:45
Dave: In the past we have trained with pvc pipe covered in foam and duct tape. These staffs are really whippy but do give you an idea of what would happen with real sticks, as far as who was hit ect. If you hit to hard these pvc sticks will break, which isnt a bad thing. Grind down the sharp edges and make bowie knife trainers or what ever. I like your idea of using this type of training as a labortory to validate techneques. At some point the guy getting smacked should try and play like he just got smacked. For instance if "I got hit like this I would more than likley respond like this" Which kind of make it seem phoney because he may not be injured but to respond as if it was real stick and he was injured is more realistic than padding up and no one acknowledging a head shot or a good hit on the hand. Hmm Sort of like Kata , go figure. If everyone keeps the "play" in mind it wil be usefull. Let us know how it goes.

Regards
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International

Benjamin Peters
7th May 2002, 23:32
Sparring is perhaps a poor description of what very senior levels in Koryu train in. Perhaps a better understanding can be gained by using another descriptor like free-form. I have seen (on video) in koryu weapons schools people 'going at it' as if it were sparring but in a very controlled way, still epitomizing the spirit of traditional forms, space/distance, and above all blending in and out of engagement. This is a very high level of the martial arts.

What can you take out of this, are the principles and perhaps to a lesser extent the application.


I'm not sure how anyone can truly "spar" with a real Bo,Jo or Hando without getting seriously injured or killed. So I would be interested in if Tcasella could elaborate..!

Brently Keen
8th May 2002, 00:07
I don't know if you'd call it sparring, but I have on several occassions engaged in high speed (maybe not quite full speed - but dangerous enough), freestyle training with my Daito-ryu instructor. We did both jo vs jo, and bokuto vs jo as well as standard Daito-ryu aiki-jo vs empty hands. I used spontaneous and unannounced attacks (including fakes) and responded to his initial moves with counter moves (to no avail). Obviously he exercised restraint - since I'm still here to tell about it.

One time in particular, I recall, I was really scared of being hurt (perhaps more than any other time in my training) - as the speed and commitment with which I attacked was well beyond my ability to take ukemi, and how he in turn responded really hurt. No permanent damage, but I felt I'd come as close as I could without being maimed in some way. A real testament to his skill and control, and not to mention character - as I was really trying to "test him".

I do not recommend "sparring" as a regular practice, but there are times when it is beneficial and enlightening. My experiences were real eye openers. It should always be done with caution and respect, keeping safety in mind, you shouldn't ever spar all out with weapons (IMO) what's the difference then between that and fighting? Likewise you ought to only do it with someone whom you know well and respect.

Brently Keen