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Benjamin Peters
30th April 2002, 23:48
What is more instinct to a human - wrestling or striking in a combat situation? Do learned behaviours influence our natural combative instincts?

Jody Holeton
1st May 2002, 02:08
I would honestly say its a mixture of GRAPPLING and Striking with an affinity for striking.

From my own experience (judo, vale tudo, karate etc.) and with "family" and street fights (yes, taking down my buddies jerkoff friend who tries to slap me at a bar counts as such). When I get someone in a clinch I just REALLY want to pound them. You should see newbies go to town in vale tudo (also UFC 1-4).

I would say that GENERALLY people tend to strike and then clinch up (grapple, pin etc.). It may come from a prehistoric "hold ya down, pound ya with a rock!" thing....

Mike Williams
1st May 2002, 10:25
ALthough I train in grappling (and my grappling skills are *much* better than my striking or kicking) I voted striking in the poll.

Every fight I've witnessed has basically involved lots of wild flailing punches and kicks (after the initial shoving phase). I personally haven't experienced the clinching/going to the ground phenomenon (the few fights I've been in were years ago, long before I started training)

Last night there was a documentary on TV about soccer hooligans - all the footage showed wildly flailing fists and feet, there was no clinching, no headlocks, no closing the distance.
FWIW, I believe that one's first instinct is to use fists and feet as clubs - I think grappling has to be learnt?

Cheers,

Mike

Charlie Kondek
1st May 2002, 17:33
I'm with Jody here. (Hi, Jo Justice!) Seems like all the fights I ever saw or participated in, pre-training (haven't fought since) involved getting a few punches in, grabbing the opponent, trying to wrestle that person to the ground (often just causing you both to fall over), and then continuing to pound on the person. Meanwhile, the other guys is either participating with equal vigor or trying to curl into a ball because his spirit has been broken. You know, like hockey.

This has only been my experience, though, which is limited.

Jody Holeton
2nd May 2002, 00:54
CHARLIE!!!

How the hell are you??

I keep on going back to our Vale Tudo bit, even though we could have grappled we INSISTED on hitting each other and then grappling!

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!

Maybe its our European, AMerican brawling mentality! Fight like a man BS..........

Mike has a point with the hooligans, maybe its a brawling sort of thing... AND then could it be a learnt behavior?

PeteBoyes
2nd May 2002, 09:42
I think the major difference with the hooligans was that in most cases it was 'hit and run'.

When there are 2 'gangs' it's often a case of 1 guy sprinting up and hitting/kicking an opposition yobbo and then retreating to the saftey of his own mob. You don't want to get isolated in enemy territory and so quickly retreat before you can be grappled. Likewise the 'victim' won't grapple because his attacker may have some backup and doesn't want to become the group's punchbag.

In my limited experience from rugby, it's nearly always a punch, or two, followed by grappling. But in those instances there is rarely any malice intended.

From the couple (2) of bar brawls I've witnessed it's also resorted to grappling.

I think it is dependent on 'intent'. Grappling will result when there is an 'aggressor' and a victim/defender. I think it is rare that each party is an aggressor.

Benjamin Peters
2nd May 2002, 12:32
I think it is dependent on 'intent'. Grappling will result when there is an 'aggressor' and a victim/defender. I think it is rare that each party is an aggressor.
Good post Peter. I tend to agree that instinctively that people hit then close, go in for it. I guess my reasoning is based on the fact that grappling and dominating this way is done to (a) show brute strength over the victim and (b) defeat the opponent with the final blow - be it an animalistic bite to the throat, choke, bone break. I guess we just have to look at tigers (?) to see swiping with their claw (striking), then the movement in to grapple, pull down and go (bite) the throat while pinning the vitim to the ground. That is if the sequence goes that long.

kenjgood
2nd May 2002, 15:45
I personally like to try and shoot them first, then cut em, then hit em, then grapple with them...

When I am grappling with them, I like to ask one of my buddies to try and start the same sequence on my opponent as listed above...:D

Charlie Kondek
3rd May 2002, 14:40
Hahaha! Hey, dumb question, but... anyone know off hand how apes fight? If they are our predecessors in evolution, wouldn't the instinctive human fighting methods resemble those of the ape (moreso than the tiger)? Or perhaps most animals kinda fight the same?

(If that's true, then I should learn to make use of my dog's "butt attack." I'll whip it out on you next time we spar, Jody. It involves slamming you into the couch with my handquarters while chewing on your ears or biting your nose with my front quarters.)

Brently Keen
4th May 2002, 20:10
Only if your ancestors were apes. Mine were human.

Brently Keen

Cady Goldfield
5th May 2002, 01:11
Ever watch a gorilla?
Ever watch sumo?

:)

Jody Holeton
5th May 2002, 05:12
Charlie!

You goto Tripp's yet?

You going to the Eagle Judo camp?

GO GO GO!!!!!!

That butt attack just might work in judo...
Other than the biting bit, it sounds like tsuri goshi!

You test yet? USJA? USJF? At Saitos?

HMMMMMMM! Gorillas in the Mist 2: Sigourney Weaver Does Judo!

Seriously, genetic memory conditions us to certain behavior, just to what extent I can't say BUT Charlie, I think you have a GREAT point.

Genetic memory and our psychic community (the things in our heads) is quite contreversial nowadays....
Maybe some research....

Brently Keen
6th May 2002, 19:39
"Ever watch a gorilla? Ever watch sumo?"

That's funny. I love sumo.

But seriously, while sumo wrestlers may approximate gorrillas in size, they're not near as hairy. While sumo may be old and appear primitive, it's techniques and strategies are actually quite refined. Whatever you may think of the intelligence of sumo wrestlers, I'd think twice before suggesting to any one of them they may be missing (a few) links, while a gorilla on the other hand cannot even speak coherently, much less be anymore offended if you told him his offspring would someday be smoothskinned sumo wrestlers with pony tails and dresses. Finally, I don't think there's any way to compare their fighting styles, much less their manners, and suggest with any credibility that one derives from the other.

However, I do understand that gorrillas do bite quite ferociously, so I must grant you, that a case might be made for Mike Tyson, as an individual, he might have some such genetic ties. :D (However that would certainly be an isolated case, as we could never make the same associations for black people or boxers in general).

Brently Keen

Cady Goldfield
6th May 2002, 20:35
Brently, old bean. :)
I'm just saying that if you watch really good sumo, you'll notice that sumo guys do something that gorillas do: They relax. That's where a heckuvalot of the power comes from. I've seen some amazing stuff on video from both (gorillas and sumo wrestlers).

Just an observation. ;)

Brently Keen
6th May 2002, 22:29
Cady,

I'll grant the relaxed part - it's a universal principle of efficient movement. ;) I just wanted to make clear that I don't believe we evolved from animals.

Eagle Judo? Now what's that?

Brently Keen

Charlie Kondek
7th May 2002, 14:28
Eagle Judo? Well, you pick the fella up in your talons, fly him up to a great height, and drop him for ippon. Right, Jody? ;)

Brently Keen
7th May 2002, 23:08
LOL!!!

Are talons still legal in all 50 states? Where can I get some?

Brently Keen

Jody Holeton
8th May 2002, 05:23
Spirit of the Eagle Judo Camp!!!

http://www.judocamp.org/

Mark Tripp (budokanjudo.org)
BIG BIG Frank Amalfitano, Michigan's own champion
Micheal Jen
Igor Yakimov

Will all be there teaching and rolling!!!!

Charlie you HAVE to go!!!
You gone to Tripp's yet?

His stuff is SAVING my A$$ here in Japan!
You test yet?

Later--Jody

Jody Holeton
8th May 2002, 05:31
Hey Charlie!!

WTH is Asly on the move? What does that mean?

Charlie Kondek
8th May 2002, 14:37
Shame on you, Jody! Aslan is one of the main characters from C.S. Lewis' Narnia books. He's the Christ figure and friend to all the animals that fights evil, and when it looks like he's gonna show up and kick some evil butt or set things right, all the characters whisper to one another, "Aslan is on the move." I'm gonna drop you a big fat e-mail, BTW. :D

joe yang
8th May 2002, 14:56
Sorry, I thought you posted Snapple or punch.

Cady Goldfield
8th May 2002, 16:11
Brently,

You know darned well I wouldn't open that can o' worms on the forum. With you and Ken Good around, I'd be cruisin' for a verbal bruisin'! :laugh:

Now, should we ever get together in person, over a bottle of sake... then the subject is fair game!

Cady

Benjamin Peters
14th May 2002, 04:29
Sorry, I thought you posted Snapple or punch.
Mmmmm....Snapple, beautiful sweet Snaaapple.....

OK one last point I would like to raise before this thread goes into oblivion.

Do you think that situational and emotional aspects play parts in influencing a fight (if it goes to a grapple or punch up)?? For instance, it could be possible for someone to get so emotional that he ends up in grappling range where the fight progresses. Like 2 karateka going at it in a comp getting so worked up that they start pushing and grabbing - I'm sure it's happened before. Ot maybe a friendly wrestle turns ugly with punches thrown (I'm sure that's happened too :D) How about body size - is a skinny guy more prone to striking and a larger guy to wrestling??

Jody Holeton
14th May 2002, 05:14
Dear Ben,

I used to do mainly percussion arts (until 3 years ago) and I always noticed a trend for people to start grappling and playing around when things didn't "go" their way.

IN judo AND wrestling I have had beginners start punching, pinching and BITING when a "friendly" bout of judo didn't go thier way.

At my old grad school (EMU) we always had at least ONE nutcase in the beginner's judo class and ALWAYS a couple of JERKS (mainly wrestlers and soldier types) looking to screw around. During my second semester of helping with the class I had a young punk kick me in the knee (hard) while we were doing ground drills (shrimp crawls). He said it was for REALISM BUT it was DURING drills and a surprise to me (then to him when I dropped him with a knee lock).

In my first karate school (TKD) we ALWAYS had a problem with clinches and people grabbing ESPECIALLY when things got heated and people got tired. Especially the bigger and FATTER instructors (who tended to tire out easily).

ANybody else have similar experiences?

Benjamin Peters
14th May 2002, 06:33
I always noticed a trend for people to start grappling and playing around when things didn't "go" their way


In my first karate school (TKD) we ALWAYS had a problem with clinches and people grabbing ESPECIALLY when things got heated and people got tired. Especially the bigger and FATTER instructors (who tended to tire out easily).

Good points Jody. I guess your points compound my ones too - it's good to know. I'm starting to think, muscle fibres and genetics may play a part in grappling (majority strength (arguable)) verses striking (majority power (arguable)). If a big guy is strong and powerful, he may be more inclined to grapple instinctively because of the weight/strength advantage (grappling). A skinny guy may have to rely on power/speed (striking). Thoughts?

Zoyashi
14th May 2002, 22:23
Hmmm... It seems the one thing bourne out by everyone's experience is that people switch from striking to grappling when things aren't going their way. From a self-defense perspective, this probably means that if we're punching the crap out of someone who's attacked us, they're going to try and clinch and grapple. Or vice versa. A good thing to keep in mind when training for self-defense, and a good reason to make sure your art has an answer for everything, even outside of it's primary comfort zone.

Josh Gepner

matt little
15th May 2002, 05:37
Thought this might be relevant. I trained for a long time in Karate (Shotokan), and instructed it as well. Loved the art and still do. But, when I became a cop, I noticed that I always grabbed the guy. Now, I know what you're all thinking: "Of course he grabbed the guy, he's ARRESTING him after all." But, here is the kicker-even when it hasn't been solely an arrest situation but a knock-down drag-out fight for my life, I STILL always grab the guy. Maybe grab first then strike, mabye strike first then grab, but always grab (I.E trap, pin, choke, throw, etc.). I have a lot of thoughts on why this is, but I think it all boils down to control. Control of the opponent, and control of the overall tactical situation. This line of thought is why I train primarily in Aikido now, and crosstrain in striking arts where before I trained primarily in Karate and crosstrained in grappling arts. Just my humble opinion...

Sincerely,

Matt Little

Jody Holeton
15th May 2002, 05:55
Dear all,

Just to go with what Matt is saying. When I was in HS I was 150 pounds and doing TKD (I was 6'2"). Now that I am LESS quick (I am now 205 pounds)and my opponents are usually younger and quicker I have found that if I grab them THEY CANT MOVE OUT OF MY KILL ZONE.

I agree with MAtt; grappling=control.

I still like VAle Tudo (wearing a judogi) where you can soften up your opponent with atemi and THEN go for a SUBMISSION.


I think this might have to deal with body size, genetic memory (instictual drives WHICH might be different for different people) and aggression levels.


WHat do you all think?

Benjamin Peters
22nd May 2002, 23:28
Jody, I believe it does have something to do with your genetic make up and what 'instinctually' suits you for battle. Some smaller people may find 'x' effective, while Mr 'K' may find 'Y' effective. I think it is summed up in the most recent 'Black Belt' edition where an Aikido guy suggests that be it striking or boxing, it really depends on you and how you can win the fight with your skills. So I guess he's saying, one isn't better than the other, just whatever works.

PS on a side note, even though we have discussed the new combatives manual to death (on grapple vs punch), but let's just turn the subject a few degrees to this: Does the new combatives manual assume grappling as the more prominent 'instinctual' behaviour?

davoravo
24th May 2002, 07:21
Sumo wrestlers relax to make themselves hard to move and to resist their opponents attack. I don't think this is a viable sustainable tactic in a "real fight" (whatever THAT is).
Chimpanzee attacks have been previously discussd - overhand downward slapping movements - but chimpanzees have much longer arms than humans making this attck more efficient for their anatomy.
cheers

Dan Harden
26th May 2002, 04:22
The argument is old. The greeks answered the question of whether or not to bet on a boxer or a wrestler?
Bet on the wrestler everytime.

As for modern combatives? I will hit you in the coratid sinus and potentialy black you out while moving in to control your center and simultainiously choking you and binding your head/neck and basing your legs and kicking your nuts-all of which is consistent with having a knife in my hands or not and leads seamlesly to a stomach and diaphram attack and throw set up as part of the process. Nowhere in the process do I use my hands to make contact-they would be an added bonus.
Our supposed "blocks" follow the same paths as the attacks- wherein do I stop to "punch or block something?"

If you can punch-they can too.

Dan

davoravo
8th June 2002, 03:13
Closest analogy to "humans in the wild" I could think of.

One player loses it and starts swing with wide, straight arm punches, one of which may or may not contact with forearm to the side of the head. As he is charging forward wildly, the two players ACCIDENTALLY close to grappling distance and grab each other, closing down potential punches. They stand there trying to punch or block the punch till they are pulled apart. If one goes down he is punched and kicked.

Amphinon
21st June 2002, 21:37
What about both?

jellyman
28th June 2002, 03:28
It's all about fear vs aggression. When someone is afraid but far away, he will kind of run, but flick little punches at you. This I have seen more in schools than in fights, because generally I have seen that the physical component of a fight starts within striking distance. And of course, in reality the person would probably literally run away, instead of flicking and running. When someone is afraid and up close, they will often grab onto something and hang on for grimd death. You could whack them on the head a kajillion times, and they'll hold on. This is a bit like when babies hang on to their parents to feel safe. If the person is being aggressive, they tend to go with what they are most familiar with, which has more to do with upbringing, what they did in the schoolyard, how they tangled with their brothers, and training of course.

I think left to themselves, people will do both. My baby son hits and kicks all the time, but he does some neat rolling maneuvers as well, and likes to grab stuff.

tote
6th July 2002, 06:27
Someone mentioned gorillas.

I've noticed they tend to jump up and use downward hammer fist type blows, generally one with each arm per "jump". This puts the whole body weight and falling momentum behind the blows, which seem to be delivered very loose and "whip-like".

I think chimps do pretty much the same thing, but their arms are even longer and more whip-like.

Considering all the weird things chimps have been trained in, I'm wondering if anyone has tried to train a monkey in martial arts? (I mean, if they can be sent into space...?) Imagine a kata performing chimp? Might be too dangerous if the animal got a bit carried away. :p

saviolo
9th July 2002, 14:00
I was under the impression that Apes bit rather than anything else, although Chimps have been known to throw sticks and if you put your arm througb the bars, they'll pull it off. I also have a friend who teaches Ninjutsu who says he once taught a silverback how to throw a Zenpo Geri (safely, you understand, demostraiting the technique from outside the cage) and then wished he hadn't because the Ape tried one out on the glass of the enclosure and made the whole thing wobble...

It's also worth remembering that animals are much more sensible than us. It's very rare for them to injure each other. The smaller/less agressive animal generally has the good sense to back off, and can't go home and get a shotgun. We seem to be the only speices that fights to the death over nothing.

Re punching or grappling, from what I've seen, it seems to come down to a question of agression and mobility. If one person is backing away, they tend to stay in punching range by accident. If two people seriously go at it, then they tend to close from kicking to punching to grappling clawing biting range pretty fast.

I'm not sure how easy it is to dictate the kind of fight you want - if the other guy rushes you, you get a few shots in but then it's time to roll on the floor and murder each other.