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Ronin
1st May 2002, 20:27
I know this is chinese but has anyone tried the movements or read the books? If so, what did you think of it?

Alex Crofut
13th May 2002, 20:32
Sorry, haven't tried it, but I do know current practitioners, and just attended one of their events commemorating the 10th anniversary of their founding.

A few things:

First, there is no way to justify the way the Chinese government can justify what they do to Falun Gong practitioners. Just check the stories out on any news organization. I've heard even worse than I've read on CNN.

As for the movement itself, I've been trying to research it independently to decide wether or not it's a cult. I'm concerned that their founder claims superhuman powers for himself (including levitation and invisibility), claims aliens are among us and trying to replace us with clones (I have no idea why when they could just conquer us if they had that technology) and also claims that he is a buddha (his practitioners often call him this). I started to read his first book, but stopped after only 50 pages.

I've heard reports from http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/f00.html#falungong
that their founder believes inter-racial marriage is bad and that inter-racial children will not be cared for in the after-life. I've tried to verify this, but I think it's a misquote.

If anyone has any information regarding falun gong, please let me know. Since family members are involved . . .

No better way than to check for yourself:

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2002/2/15/18785.html
http://www.stanford.edu/group/falun/

Alex Crofut
14th May 2002, 02:32
For those interested,

I just found a site by a professor at Leiden University (Sinological Institute) in the Netherlands.

http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/bth/falun.htm

This seems to me to be a good starting point if you're looking into Falun Gong as it provides a history and some key issues. more importantly, it gives a lot of references.

Ronin
14th May 2002, 04:18
Hey Alex,

Thanks for the response. I've been researching it myself, because I tried it with the local group, and I really liked the exercises. I kinda take anything negative that I hear about it with a grain of salt, because the chinese government is running a major smear campaign against it. So all I really use for discernment is what I read in the books and how the practitioner's act.

The alien thing would have thrown me for a loop, except for I had just read a book by a native brit that ran along those lines. Its called Children of the Matrix by David Icke. He's pretty hard core into the alien's among us theory.

He claims there are lots of buddas into today's society, so its no surprise that some think that he is. I personally haven't read where he says he is.

The inter-racial children thing is funny, because from my understanding, he doesn't teach of an after life, but believes in reincarnation.

This is what I have found from observing the local group. Most people do a whole lot of protesting what is going on in china, and do the physical exercises, but don't have a good understanding of the reading material. Some of these people go on to introduce others to the practice, and answer questions from their own flawed understanding. I don't think its a cult the way the chinese government tries to make it, but I believe the potential is there if they continue with this blind leading the blind mentality. No worse than some Christian sects in the US though. Of course this is just my outter observations. I can do the exercises and read on my own, and don't really see the need to do it with a group. therefore I don't know what goes on once you get deeper, and more trusted by a group, if anything.

Alex Crofut
14th May 2002, 06:53
Not only does the Chinese government run a smear campaign, so do some Christian groups. The link I provided above regarding the inter-racial children is I believe Scientologist. I've been searching through their reference, and they didn't show where the quote comes from either. I looks like they made it up, so I thought someone here might be able to help. This is actually an important issue for me as my son is half-Chinese.

I have seen the exercises, and I believe they are quite helpful. In fact, I will be learning the five exercises this weekend (as much as you can learn in one weekend anyway). Even though my above posts present problems I have with Falun Gong, it's from the angle that I want to check it out thoroughly. That said, I'll add another problem to the list: Falun Gong practitioners aren't supposed to seek medical help. I think the rest of the problems (like pre-historic underwater civilizations) are actually not that big a deal. I never put much stock in the story of Noah, either. And all religions claim to be the only truth.

So what's good? Like I said, I think the exercises, like other forms of qigong, are beneficial to people's health. One advantage Falun Dafa has over other forms of qigong is that it does stress helping others and spiritual enlightenment rather than personal gain.

My personal observation of Falun Gong practitioners is that they are normal people. The celebration I attended was very enjoyable, and I would like to spend more time with the people who attended. Everyone I spoke with was very nice. As I left, they gave me a cd of music they use for meditation and a flyer.

In summary, I think that Falun Gong is generally good, but I do have some issues with some of the claims made by their founder and some of the official doctrine.

I'm hoping that more contact with more practitioners will assuage my concerns. If you like, I'll update here after I learn some of the exercises and talk to some more people. I hope that you'll do the same, it sounds like you're a lot further along in your research. I'm especially curious to know what specific questions you have about Falun Gong. I would like to be able to look at it from a different point of view. Being raised in the U.S. probably makes me a little biased, so I would like to see a different, independent point of view.

BTW, are you in the SF area?

Ronin
14th May 2002, 18:23
I've heard about the medical thing, and I can't find any basis for it. My understanding is that if you have medical problems, you shouldn't do the practice in order to get rid of them. This is an attachment, and is not good for cultivation. That's not to say that the practice won't help, but that should not be your aim. I have never read anything about not seeking medical attention if you need it.

I really don't have many pressing questions now. One that I did have in the past was how a person could get a falun without being at a seminar, but that was answered as a read further. You can get it just by reading the book. It was pleasant to see that no one asked for any money, and that the books were available for free on the net. I'm always suspicious of any spiritual group that asks for a lot of money. Only thing that really bothers me now, is why the practioners seem to stray from what is being taught. For example, they are really hard core in the US about protesting against what is happening in china, but the teachings clearly are against political involvement. So I don't understand where all that comes from.

I'm actually on the otherside of the country in NC. Not as big a movement over here, but it is around. Please let me know if you make any knew discoveries, and I shall do the same!

Alex Crofut
14th May 2002, 18:43
Having only read the first 50 pages, I can't provide a textual basis for refusing medical treatment either. However, I can tell you definitively that practitioners do refuse medicine (hey, I try to keep that at a minimum also);). Once again, the justification for Falun Gong I hear most often <<from practitioners>> is the health benefits. This is the difference between official doctrine and practice. My first reading though, did spend a lot of time discussing Master Li's ability to heal others, although he said he wouldn't heal people because that is not the purpose of Falun Gong (that's part of the reason I stopped reading).

I agree that it's great they offer the books and other things for free over the internet. That's one of the main reasons I am willing to look into it further.

So, my opinion going in is the actual practice is good, but the doctrine as presented to me by practitioners, their websites, the first 50 pages of the first book, and my other research leaves a lot to be desired. I actually feel the same way about Catholicism. Fourteen years of Catholic school will do that. :D

Ronin
15th May 2002, 18:08
I think a lot of practioners miss the point. It could be because of their cultural background. From my understanding, there are a lot of qigong masters in china that teach and heal for healings sake, or to make people feel better, or to display supernatural abilities. If you grow up in that kind of culture, I think it would be easy to key in on those things no matter who the qigong master is. All I have to go on, is what is written by this guy in his books, because my experience of chinese culture is limited. He warns of "ordinary people" that just want to heal and be healed, or develop supernatural abilities, for fame and fortune. He says that these are not true practioners. He says that the work of the practice is to cultivate ones moral character in line with truthfulness, benevolence, and forbearance. This is just my understanding though. I could be wrong. Which book did you start reading? I know Zhuan Falun is a bit wordy, and takes a while to go though. Try Falun Gong. It's less than half as big, and gives a good overview. It's 92 pages in my copy up to the exercises, then rest of the book is the movements, glossary, etc.

Alex Crofut
15th May 2002, 18:30
I agree 100%.

To answer your question, I started reading zhuan falun. I wanted to keep them in order. I plan on re-reading it, the whole thing this time, but I'm going to finish the second book in the Lord of the Rings trilogy first :)

eppo
20th May 2002, 20:35
Hi, I am a Falun Gong practitioner and i’d like to comment on several postings I read on this forum. But before you read on, maybe you just like to ask me, as a practitioner, questions. I would gladly answer any questions about the practice of Falun Gong with the hope to clear out some misunderstandings.

The topics I’d like to address are politics, the issue of seeing a doctor and supernatural abilities.

Politics
A Falun Gong practitioner will always state that he doesn’t get involved in politics. However most of them do untertake actions to tell about the unjustified persecution of Falun Gong in China to as many people as possible, and this includes politicians as well. The issue then is: is it politics if you ask (a politician) for human rights to be respected or inform people about the persecution? The people in China have no way to appeal if their human rights are violated, this would be answered with arrest or worse. Only people from outside of China can speak out for them and the way to do it is through human rights organizations and governments. I must admit that it looks like politics if a government exercises pressure on China to respect human rights, but this is still an act of the politicians themselves. The Falun Gong practitioners only informed them about the situation. Another question you could ask is, if Falun Dafa does have political goals what are they and how does this manifest?

For a reference what Master Li (the founder of Falun Gong) states about politics, you could read his article “No Politics” at:
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2001/6/7/11235.html

I must however mention that these articles are actually meant for practitioners only because a certain level of understanding of the teachings is required to understand these articles. But since the articles are free to download and Falun Gong has nothing to hide, you can read them as well.

Seeing a doctor
As you might have already read, the teachings do not mention that you cannot see a doctor. Master Li even mentions that hospitals can cure diseases, and that why else would people go there. It is however stated in the teachings that when you feel ill and you decide to see a doctor or use medicine you do not consider yourself a practitioner, which implies that you should not see a doctor. In my opinion this is a matter of levels. If you understand what is written in the books, about how diseases come about, what their fundamental cause is and what it means to be a practitioner, then you indeed should not see a doctor or use medicine once you feel ill. However if you just start the practice and don’t have a deep understanding of Falun Gong, it is not advised to not see a doctor.

Furthermore, Falun Dafa is indeed not meant for healing illnesses, which is also clearly stated in the books. If people who have severe illnesses come to practice Falun Gong in order to have their illnesses cured, they will not get cured, because they are attached to healing their illnesses. If they can’t give up this attachment, nothing can be done. If you come to practice Falun Gong without this attachment and happen to have some illness, it’s very well possible that this illness will get cured after practicing Falun Gong for a while.

Finally it’s interesting to investigate how many Falun Gong practitioners died because of not taking medicine. As far as I know there are only very few such cases and they are highly dubious as well. The Chinese government claims that there are 1600 (in 2000) deaths because of not taking medicine. Even if it is due to not taking medicine then this number is still lower than the average death rate in China considered that there are more than 70 million practitioners.

Supernatural capabilities
There is more to life than we can see. If people would reject a religious or spiritual practice because they talk about supernatural abilities, then in my opinion these people are very opinionated and shortsighted. The reason why supernatural abilities are discussed in the teachings of Falun Gong in my opinion is, that when a practitioner comes into contact with it, he understands what is happening and he doesn’t have to get frightened. Master Li tries to give a scientific explanation about some unexplained phenomena. He himself never stated that he has supernatural abilities, though other people said he has some abilities. I think it’s irrelevant if he has them or not. One thing is for sure he will not casually display them to ordinary people. If he did, all people would come to learn Falun Gong for this, wouldn’t they? Just like healing illnesses, gaining supernatural abilities is not the goal of practicing Falun Gong, but it can be a side-effect.

So far my comments, I hope they gave you some insights.

Regards,
Peter

Alex Crofut
20th May 2002, 21:19
Thank you Peter for your response. It is great to get input from a practitioner outside this area. Just a heads-up, the rules of e-budo require you to sign with your full name. You can do that by using the "user cp" button up top.


As you might have already read, the teachings do not mention that you cannot see a doctor. Master Li even mentions that hospitals can cure diseases, and that why else would people go there. It is however stated in the teachings that when you feel ill and you decide to see a doctor or use medicine you do not consider yourself a practitioner, which implies that you should not see a doctor. In my opinion this is a matter of levels. If you understand what is written in the books, about how diseases come about, what their fundamental cause is and what it means to be a practitioner, then you indeed should not see a doctor or use medicine once you feel ill. However if you just start the practice and don’t have a deep understanding of Falun Gong, it is not advised to not see a doctor.

What is the Falun Gong understanding of illness and its origin? What is its fundamental cause?

Is this a central issue to Falun Dafa? If not, what are the central issues? To be honest, I often hear "Falun Gong will cure this" or "Falun Gong will cure that." "Falun Gong cured this person." I can never get to the fundamentals of Falun Dafa. Please help!

eppo
21st May 2002, 10:45
Hello,

Before I answer any questions I want to make clear that whatever I say or write about the teachings of Falun Dafa are just my interpretations of how I understand things at this moment. Please do not let anything I, or any other practitioner for that matter, say or write, restrict you in your understanding. What I say or write will have my interpretations infused into it, and it would not carry any deeper implications or meaning.

Ok, then to your questions: first of all I’d like to say that practitioners who go around telling people that Falun Dafa can heal this and that disease may not have understood what Falun Dafa is all about. On the other hand, they could have tried to arouse interest by saying that it can heal illnesses, which is not necessarily wrong. Usually a practitioner will tell about Falun Dafa only in superficial terms because for many people it is too complicated and they will be scared off if things get too profound. That’s why some practitioners will only say things like “it’s good for your health and it can heal illnesses” and "it makes you a better person", in the hope that if people get interested and start to study the teachings they will naturally start to understand what Falun Dafa is really all about.

The central issue, the essence of Falun Dafa in my opinion is cultivating oneself. In Falun Dafa this is assimilating oneself to the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance, which in practice means that one should work actively on giving up attachments in order to become a (morally) better person.

The reason why diseases are discussed in the teachings is because it is strongly related to giving up attachments and also to the reason for starting a cultivation practice. But I could never explain it as thoroughly as it is done in Zhuan Falun. So if you really want to understand it, there is no other way then to read Zhuan Falun yourself. But to give a little direction, i can tell you that Falun Dafa believes in the principles of karma and reincarnation: one has to pay for the wrong deeds done in the past in order to attain a state free of suffering.

By the way, about reading the book I want to make a remark: you will notice that it is very difficult to finish this book. You may finish Lord of the Rings or any other book easily in maybe a few days if you read quickly. But when reading Zhuan Falun (especially for the first time) lots of difficulties will occur in finishing it. Unknowingly you will ‘forget’ about it, there will be all kinds of things happening that prevent you from reading. If not from your own mind then from external factors. Why this is, is explained in the book. I hope to arouse your curiosity in this way and the advise I’d like to give is to try finishing this book in a few consecutive days. Don’t let too much time get in between.

And finally: I didn’t know about signing with my full name, sorry. I updated my profile.

Regards,

Ronin
21st May 2002, 12:55
Peter,

Thanks for the clarification. I had a feeling that even though this was a japanese website, that practitioner's would still drift in if I posted the subject.;)

Alex Crofut
21st May 2002, 17:55
QUOTE]Usually a practitioner will tell about Falun Dafa only in superficial terms because for many people it is too complicated and they will be scared off if things get too profound.[/QUOTE]

This is a bit of a shame, I like to think I can handle complicated concepts ;)


in the hope that if people get interested and start to study the teachings they will naturally start to understand what Falun Dafa is really all about

In the words of Master Li (page 1 of Zhuan Falun downloaded as a word document from clearwisdom.net):


If you hold various attachments and come to gain supernormal abilities, have illnesses cured, listen to some theories, or come with some ill intentions, that will not work at all


i can tell you that Falun Dafa believes in the principles of karma and reincarnation: one has to pay for the wrong deeds done in the past in order to attain a state free of suffering.

So, if I understand you correctly, the fundamental nature of illness is karmic. I'm curious if this is related to Master Li's study of Buddhism? He seems to dislike very strongly Zen Buddhism, giving as his reason that since so many generations have passed, they cannot possibly have it right. The discussion of Zen Buddhism begins on page 4 of the above version of Zhuan Falun, I'm refering to comments on the following page.

eppo
21st May 2002, 23:57
Hi,
Ronin, your feeling was right. Maybe you like to know how I got here? I am the webmaster of a Dutch Falun Dafa site. I was interested to see who visited Dafa websites and I looked in the site statistics of the site of this Dutch professor at Leiden University who did some research on Falun Gong (see one of the first postings), that’s how I found this site. By the way, the same day, or maybe even a few hours later, I checked these statistics again to find some more links and the link to E-budo.com was already gone, a coincidence…?

Alex, it would indeed be a shame if a practitioner would always use the same approach in talking about Falun Dafa, like in the example where a practitioner talks about healing illnesses and ignores the fact that the person he addresses might have a very high understanding of certain issues. Every encounter or situation should be evaluated anew. But of course practitioners are all in a learning process, so don’t blame them. In fact, you could point it out to them and tell them what you think of their approach. If they really understand Falun Dafa, they will be very happy with your comments and use it to look inward for their shortcomings and how to improve.

The principle of karmic rewards and retribution is indeed the same as in Buddhism. In fact this is a universal principle, for instance Jesus Christ also said that good will be rewarded with good and evil will be met with evil. The principles are the same, only the explanations differ.

About Zen Buddhism, Master Li does not dislike Zen Buddhism. He explains that Zen Buddhism can now no longer lead people to enlightenment as it did in the past (the first 6 generations). He speaks with respect of Boddhidharma, the founder of Zen Buddhism. Maybe you should read it again…:)

I’d like to make another remark about reading the books of Falun Dafa: you should not read a part of the book with the intention of finding something, like an answer to your questions or this or that. That would be an attachment. Furthermore it is very likely that you take the text out of its context, which could cause a wrong understanding. It’s best to read from beginning to end in the right order, because there is a certain logic in the book. Master Li once said (not an exact quote): if you have read the book once, you will have many questions. If you read it again, many of these questions will be answered, but you will have new ones which are at a higher level than the ones you had before. Reading the book again will answer these questions and again leave you with new questions which are again at a higher level. In this way you naturally make improvement in your understanding. - of course all this applies to practitioners, but i thought it wouldn't hurt for a non-practitioner to follow this as well.

Alex Crofut
22nd May 2002, 01:12
the site of this Dutch professor at Leiden University who did some research on Falun Gong

What are some of your thoughts regarding his work? It seemed to me to be pretty objective, and very helpful in helping me get past some hang-ups concerning Falun Gong. On a personal note, this I think is why Li said


If you hold various attachments and come to gain supernormal abilities, have illnesses cured, listen to some theories, or come with some ill intentions, that will not work at all

The mention of curing illnesses magically and stuff like that just made me think Falun Gong was strange. After all, how would you feel if someone off the street came up to you and said they could cure your allergies by converting the white powdery de all around you into gong? Don't know about you, but I'm starting to think about where the nearest crowded place is . . . :D


Alex, it would indeed be a shame if a practitioner

Don't take me too seriously there. I don't want you to think I was seriously offended or anything. Just marketing, I guess. Probably works most of the time, although I still think that approach merely sabotages new practitioners, as they come with attachments.


Maybe you should read it again…

And maybe this time I should try it without attachments :)


It’s best to read from beginning to end in the right order
I'm at about page 20, which is why all my quotes are before that.


principles are the same, only the explanations differ.
Quite true; we reap what we sow, right?

Perhaps I can pick your brain about Falun Gong from time to time? I'm thinking it's best to continue off this board as I'm likely to get pretty in depth and long-winded :D What would be the best way to initiate this? Perhaps I can contact you through your website?

Ronin
22nd May 2002, 02:06
no no no...Alex! Ask here. I wanna see too! :look:

Alex Crofut
22nd May 2002, 02:16
I wouldn't dream of leaving you out of it, Ronin! :D

eppo
23rd May 2002, 08:21
Originally posted by Alex Crofut

Quite true; we reap what we sow, right?

Perhaps I can pick your brain about Falun Gong from time to time? I'm thinking it's best to continue off this board as I'm likely to get pretty in depth and long-winded :D What would be the best way to initiate this? Perhaps I can contact you through your website?

The saying we reap what we sow is indeed quite true. I believe that the universal law of cause and effect is true and so you have to pay for your wrongdoings. There are people who do not believe in the principle that good is rewarded with good and bad is retributed with bad, but i ask myself what these people believe then. How can this not be true?

About 'picking my brain', no problem, just ask on this board, we don't want to leave Ronin out, or anyone else for that matter. If you still like to contact me personally i have no problems with that either.

About this professor: yes, i think he is quite objective and to get a general idea about what Falun Gong is about, and what it's not about, his report is a good guideline. But of course it needs no saying that to really understand what Falun Gong is all about, you would have to read the books and try the practice yourself.

Regards,

Alex Crofut
23rd May 2002, 23:42
All right, but like I said, it'll get pretty detailed. I'm going to cite the word document of Zhuan Falun I downloaded from clearwisdom.net in all cases, so the page numbers are for that. For anyone who wants the book in word format, it's available at clearwisdom.net. Also, I'd like to note that the page number and comments are after the quote to which I am referring, in case the actual post doesn't look like what I type :rolleyes:

So here we go! Let's start with Lecture I:


If they practice one way, the other way will interfere. If they practice the other way, this practice will interfere. Everything is interfering with them, and they can no longer succeed in cultivation practice Page 1
This one I think is important to anyone on e-budo. I can understand that one form of physical or spiritual training can sometimes have a bad effect on another. I've been having a hard time with my stance while training in Toyama Ryu because my legs and hips keep wanting to do a cat stance I learned years ago as a kid! :( Still, I think that learning multiple styles is beneficial for the most part.


de17 Page 7
Can you explain the concept of de? What is its relationship to gong? While we're on it, what exactly is gong?


Now, if someone learns from Lei Feng,18 he or she might be branded mentally ill. But who in the 1950’s or 1960’s would say this person is mentally ill? The human moral standard is declining tremendously, and human moral values are deteriorating dailyPage 7
I'm not sure exactly what this means. I've found that Lei Feng was a moral examplar in China who portrayed the moral attributes the Communist party sought to encourage. Can you tell us if Li Hongzhi is trying to say one should be like or unlike Lei Feng? Also, it would be helpful if you could list the qualities of Lei Feng to which Li Hongzhi is referring.

The following quotes are ones for which I am looking for scientific validation. I also feel that relying only on scientific knowledge is shortsighted, however, I also believe that one should use reason and logic where appropriate.


it has not been over ten thousand years since the actual emergence of human civilization. Page 8


Under the water of many oceans, however, some tall and large ancient architecture has been discovered Page 8


This kind of organism disappeared 260 million years ago. An American scientist has discovered a trilobite fossil with a human footprint on it; the footprint was clearly printed on the fossil by a person in shoes Page 8-9


Upon investigation, it was determined that this human figure was engraved thirty thousand years ago. This human figure, however, is dressed in clothes, hat, and shoes, with a telescope in hand, and he is observing the celestial body Page 9


. In the end, this uranium mine was verified as a large-scale nuclear reactor with a very rational layout. Even our modern people cannot possibly create this, so when was it built then? It was constructed 2 billion years ago and was in operation for 500 thousand years Page 9

So if anyone can verify the above, that would be extremely useful. This is one of those areas in which I find myself just stuck.


All matter in the universe, including all substances that permeate the universe, are living beings with thinking minds, and all of them are forms of existence of the universe’s Fa at different levels Page 13

I personally find this very close to my personal understanding of "God" (ie omnipresent).

Page 13 begins a discussion of the gong mechanism. As a practitioner, what is your personal experience of this mechanism?




De is a white substance and not, as we believed in the past, something spiritual or ideological—it absolutely has a kind of material existence. Page 14


At the same time, there exists a black kind of substance that we call “karma” Page 14

Is this meant to be taken literally?


some people are not only bent solely on profit, but they even go so far as committing all evils. They will do all kinds of evil things for money, and they will also commit murder, pay someone to kill, practice homosexuality, and abuse drugs Page 14

Well, I guess 3 out of 4 ain't bad. Of course, Catholicism also condemns homosexuality, but that don't make it right!:eek:


Aren’t you attached to a pursuit if you think too much about it? Cultivation depends on one’s own efforts, while the transformation of gong is done by one’s master Page 15

This is an interesting idea. I would be real interested to hear other people's input on this one.


After a monk is cremated at death, sarira remain. Some people claim that those are bones and teeth. How come everyday people do not have sarira? Those are just the exploded dan, and their energy has been released. They contain in themselves a lot of substances from other dimensions. After all, they are also something of material existence, but of little use. People now take them to be something very precious. They contain energy, and are lustrous, as well as very hard. That is what they are Page 16

Has anyone heard of sarira? I'm wondering what the mythological background here is . . .


. In this final period of Last Havoc Page 17
Can you speak a little to this, what is the "Last Havoc?" Is this congruous to the Apocolypse?


it has never been made public . . . I am making it public again Page 17
What is the background here? Did Li Hongzhi develop this based on ancient teachings? If they are derived from ancient teachings, how does Li Hongzhi address the issue of degradation of the original message over time?


Falun Dafa is also a cultivation practice of mind and body, and it requires exercises. On the one hand, the exercises are used to strengthen supernormal abilities Page 17

:confused: Is the purpose of the exercises to cultivate oneself or cultivate supernormal abilities? Are these different or one in the same?


When one practices cultivation at high levels, it should be completely in the state of wuwei Page 19
What is wuwei?


At present, no other person is truly teaching people toward high levels like me Page 20
Should I take this to mean that Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, et al do not teach people toward high levels, or simply that they don't do it the same way. If the former, how does this account for people like Ghandi, Jesus (doesn't Li consider him a Buddha?), Mother Theresa, Mohammed (sp?), and others from other religious and cultural backgrounds?

Okay, that's section one. I am curious about the "celestial eye," but that seems to be in the next lecture, so I'll keep it until then. By the way, I warned everyone about the long-winded part :D:rolleyes:

eppo
24th May 2002, 19:24
Phew, what’s this? Do I get paid to answer all these questions…? :D
Yeah, I know… you warned us…
In general I will be brief and superficial in answering your questions, because I am having doubts whether it’s good to answer them just like that. I’ll tell you why. All your questions (except for the proof you ask) can be answered by reading the book. If I answer them for you, what you get is my interpretation and it will limit your understanding to my level of understanding. I already said this before. I stress this because I think that you should ‘enlighten’ to things on your own, then it will really be your understanding. Furthermore I feel I have to say this because as a practitioner whatever I say will have an impact on how non-practitioners see Falun Dafa. So I have to make clear that what I say are my interpretations. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
Ok, now my comments or answers to your questions for readability I wrote it in blue.

If they practice one way, the other way will interfere. If they practice the other way, this practice will interfere. Everything is interfering with them, and they can no longer succeed in cultivation practice

This applies to cultivation practice, which encompasses the transformation of mind and body. It does not matter to learn different styles of martial arts, because that is not cultivation practice (at least at the low level it’s not). So in that regard I don’t think it matters to learn different styles.

Can you explain the concept of de? What is its relationship to gong? While we're on it, what exactly is gong?

De is a substance (energy if you like) that represents your virtue. By doing good and giving up attachments you build up De. This De can be transformed into a higher form of energy called Gong or cultivation energy. It’s not the same as Qi known from Qigong practices.

I'm not sure exactly what this means. I've found that Lei Feng was a moral examplar in China who portrayed the moral attributes the Communist party sought to encourage. Can you tell us if Li Hongzhi is trying to say one should be like or unlike Lei Feng? Also, it would be helpful if you could list the qualities of Lei Feng to which Li Hongzhi is referring.

I think he simply refers to the moral examples this person set during his days. I do not know much about him. The issue is that the moral values these days have deteriorated in such a way that if you would now follow the moral values that Lei Feng lived by, you would be a fool in the eyes of ordinary people.

it has not been over ten thousand years since the actual emergence of human civilization. Under the water of many oceans, however, some tall and large ancient architecture has been discovered

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/6/7/8807.html
http://www.grahamhancock.com/intro.php
http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html

This kind of organism disappeared 260 million years ago. An American scientist has discovered a trilobite fossil with a human footprint on it; the footprint was clearly printed on the fossil by a person in shoes

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/12/29/3697.html

Upon investigation, it was determined that this human figure was engraved thirty thousand years ago. This human figure, however, is dressed in clothes, hat, and shoes, with a telescope in hand, and he is observing the celestial body

I saw a picture of this engraving once, but i cannot find it anymore. But after seeing the above already, I guess you have enough to think about.

In the end, this uranium mine was verified as a large-scale nuclear reactor with a very rational layout. Even our modern people cannot possibly create this, so when was it built then? It was constructed 2 billion years ago and was in operation for 500 thousand years

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/4/4/8534.html

All matter in the universe, including all substances that permeate the universe, are living beings with thinking minds, and all of them are forms of existence of the universe’s Fa at different levels I personally find this very close to my personal understanding of "God" (ie omnipresent).

Page 13 begins a discussion of the gong mechanism. As a practitioner, what is your personal experience of this mechanism?

So far I have had almost no esoteric experiences. A few times I felt something spinning in my lower abdomen while doing the 4th exercise, I guess this must have been the energy mechanism. Furthermore a simple experiment you can try for yourself is holding your handpalms very close to each other but do not let them touch each other. You can feel a certain resistence, like with magnets. I think this is Qi, but this is just my personal theory.

De is a white substance and not, as we believed in the past, something spiritual or ideological—it absolutely has a kind of material existence. At the same time, there exists a black kind of substance that we call “karma” Is this meant to be taken literally?

I guess so. It’s like what I said above about De. I think you should see it as a kind of energy existing in another dimension. I believe the concept of other dimensions is also proved by science, but I am not sure. Anyway there are some really clever people out there who agree that other dimensions exist.

some people are not only bent solely on profit, but they even go so far as committing all evils. They will do all kinds of evil things for money, and they will also commit murder, pay someone to kill, practice homosexuality, and abuse drugs

Well, I guess 3 out of 4 ain't bad. Of course, Catholicism also condemns homosexuality, but that don't make it right!

What do you mean by 3 out of 4 ain’t bad?

Aren’t you attached to a pursuit if you think too much about it? Cultivation depends on one’s own efforts, while the transformation of gong is done by one’s master
This is an interesting idea. I would be real interested to hear other people's input on this one.

This question will be answered if you read on.

After a monk is cremated at death, sarira remain. Some people claim that those are bones and teeth. How come everyday people do not have sarira? Those are just the exploded dan, and their energy has been released. They contain in themselves a lot of substances from other dimensions. After all, they are also something of material existence, but of little use. People now take them to be something very precious. They contain energy, and are lustrous, as well as very hard. That is what they are Has anyone heard of sarira? I'm wondering what the mythological background here is . . .

I once saw a picture of sarira, they looked like little gemstones. I will look for it and if I find it I will post it on this site. I don’t think it has a mythological background. I think it’s a real phenomenon that certain cultivation ways (especially Taoist ones) can somehow materialize energy (Qi). You probably know about these Shaolin Monks, they can also control Qi and I guess they can also cultivate such sarira.

. In this final period of Last Havoc
Page 17 Can you speak a little to this, what is the "Last Havoc?" Is this congruous to the Apocolypse?

This is also explained in the book when you read on. In almost all orthodox religions this period is mentioned as a period where the moral values have deteriorated to a frightnening low level, which bring with them (manmade) catastrophes. I think i don't need to give examples of this, just look at Jerry Springer and his show...

it has never been made public . . . I am making it public again
Page 17 What is the background here? Did Li Hongzhi develop this based on ancient teachings? If they are derived from ancient teachings, how does Li Hongzhi address the issue of degradation of the original message over time?

This is a pretty complicated matter. Personally I don’t think Master Li derived it from ancient teachings, that’s all I want to say about it for now.

Falun Dafa is also a cultivation practice of mind and body, and it requires exercises. On the one hand, the exercises are used to strengthen supernormal abilities
Is the purpose of the exercises to cultivate oneself or cultivate supernormal abilities? Are these different or one in the same?

The development of supernatural abilities are a by-product of cultivation practice. Certain cultivation ways do not cultivate the body, Falun Gong cultivates both mind and body and therefore exercises are necessary. The purpose is to transform the body.

When one practices cultivation at high levels, it should be completely in the state of wuwei Page 19 What is wuwei?

Wuwei means non-attachment, you should not want anything, only then can one gain something.

At present, no other person is truly teaching people toward high levels like me

Page 20
Should I take this to mean that Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, et al do not teach people toward high levels, or simply that they don't do it the same way. If the former, how does this account for people like Ghandi, Jesus (doesn't Li consider him a Buddha?), Mother Theresa, Mohammed (sp?), and others from other religious and cultural backgrounds?

This is a very good question. This is how I see it: Master Li is indeed the only one at this moment who teaches people how to reach higher levels. Of course the great enlightened people from the past like Buddha Sakyamuni, Jahweh and Jesus all taught people how to reach higher levels as well. Master Li speaks with respect of these people. But nowadays their teachings are no longer pure and they can no longer achieve this goal. Furthermore what they taught in their days was aimed at people with simple minds and it is not suitable for todays people with their complex thinking patterns and psychology. This will also be further explained when you read on… now that I think of it, it seems to me that you better finish the book first, then a lot of your questions will already be answered, and then you can start reading it again, you will find that you will get new questions…

Okay, that's section one. I am curious about the "celestial eye," but that seems to be in the next lecture, so I'll keep it until then. By the way, I warned everyone about the long-winded part

Yes it took me quite a while to answer this message, but I hope it gave you and other readers some incentive.

Alex Crofut
25th May 2002, 00:03
Eppo,

I would like to thank you sincerely for your help in answering my questions. Your candid answers (and thanks for the cites:toast: )are really refreshing! :)

I will take your advice to heart and read the entire book before posting further. I'm also certain that others will benefit from this thread, and I hope they are inspired to further persue their own cultivation practice.

Before I go, I will answer your single question, as it is an important point, I think: By 3 out of 4 ain't bad, I mean that I agree that 3 of the 4 actions given were not morally outstanding. The exception I take is homosexuality, which is to say I do not believe homosexuality is "evil." Of course, there are many in this world who would disagree with me. As for murder, paying someone else to murder, and drug abuse, I think we can agree we shouldn't aspire to these activities.

Thanks again, and good luck in your cultivation!

eppo
28th May 2002, 15:44
Hi Alex,

Do you have objections to give arguments why you think homosexuality is not "evil"? If not, i am interested in your reasoning and i'd like to start a short discussion about it. If you don't like to do so, it's fine with me as well.

Thanks,

Peter

Alex Crofut
28th May 2002, 17:31
Eppo,

Since this would be way off topic for these forums, I will try to send you a private message explaining as best I can why I do not believe homosexuality is evil. If you read this before you receive it, please try to send me a private message as it means I bulloxed it and couldn't send you a message.

Alex

eppo
29th May 2002, 09:12
Yes, i agree it is way off to discuss this here. We can continue this discussion by e-mail.