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Vision Quest
4th August 2000, 17:40
Hello, all,

My buddy and I both study karate, though in different dojos. He takes something called "Goshin Do Karate". My buddy is starting to wonder about this style, but he's computerless at the moment, so I said I'd make some inquiries for him.

First, has anyone ever heard of this style? Apparently, it used to be called Goshin Jutsu, and before that, "Goshin Jitsu Kyo Juju", whatever than means. The founder is a person named Gerald Durant. It is claimed that Mr. Durant was a soldier in WWII, but "jumped ship" in Japan and spent the war learning all kinds of elite martial arts from a "Samurai prince". Then he returned to the US with a 6th Degree black belt. Um...wasn't the US at war with Japan then? Did they give high rank to Americans like that?

Other claims include that the style is a "pure" style, and has been taught unchanged since the time of the Samurai. Their katas were supposedly done by Samurai warriors outside their castles. Yet oddly, there is not one mention of this style or the names of their kata in ANY martial arts reference book or website I've seen.

My buddy tells me that some students believe that their instructor is a "reincarnated samurai". The guy displays photographs of himself posing like one, complete with dramatic stage lighting and swirling mists of fake smoke, both in the dojo and on his website! There's a bunch of other stuff going on too that bother my buddy, but mainly he wants to know if this is a legitimate style or... something else.

Does anyone know anything (pro or con) about Goshin Do Karate?

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-04-2000 at 02:53 PM]

Tetsutaka
4th August 2000, 17:53
From what I understand, the founder, Jerry Durant, was a merchant marine - not in the military.

There are several other stange things in the sotry you realy from him. I don't know if that was misinterpretation, or if your buddy was getting his story from an imaginative fellow student.

There are several sites for Goshin Jutsu, as there were several divisions amongst the ranks after their founder passed on.

You should be able to do a search on the web and find several sites. If you can afford the cost of printer paper, you should be able to print out some information for your buddy and let him read it.

Best to you in your search,

Vision Quest
4th August 2000, 18:16
Thanks for the reply. I actually have one of the brochures given out by this dojo, and the "Samurai prince" thing is right there in black and white. My friend didn't hear this stuff from an imaginative fellow student, he has heard the claims himself from the instructor. Including the claim about the katas being done outside Samurai castles.

I guess the thing that puzzles us the most is the names of the katas...none of which seem to exist in <I>any</I> other style of karate. The kata names include Yonaka, Kishu, Ichi-Bando, and some others. Has anyone ever heard of any of these? What other legitimate styles of traditional karate practice these? On the other hand, none of the well-known kata from other karate styles, like Seisan, Sanchin, Naihanchi, etc. are practiced or even mentioned at this dojo. If this is truly a legitimate karate style sharing roots with all the other traditional styles, why is Goshin the only one with different katas?

Victor Smith
5th August 2000, 02:43
About 20 years ago I trained for a few years with Steve Newman who was under Joe Brague in Goshin Jutsu Kyu Juo.

I don't know many of the styles inside details, but the yudansha of Goshin Jutsu were very together at that time (before Master Durant's death).

One of their adepts, Gary Michak, one year was ranked in the top 20 by Karate Illustrated in Kata, Kobudo and Kumite.

I agree they didn't seem to do the 'standard' Okinawan or Japanese forms. I was under the impression that they made them up themselves. But the groups technique was rather good, they were powerful, did some version of aikijutsu along with their karate studies.

I fully agree their 'technique' might not be traditional, but they could definately make it work.

Gary Michak at that time was one of the inovators of 'Musical Kata'. Specifically he had a very complex, dynamic form he did to the theme music of the movie "Superman", while dressed in a blue gi.

Sure that's not karate as most of us do it, but I can appreciate athletic performance when I see it. I've never seen anyone do a musical form better, and still recall how awsome Gary was doing that form.

So I'd guess the group was innovative, dynamically cohesive, had practical technique for self defense. Perhaps they aren't 'traditional' in a Shorin, or Goju or Shotokan sense.

It's a big world with room for many varities.

As for chosing a member of that style or an offshoot of their style, the choice is the same as in any school.
What do you see, what do they do,....?

Ken Allgeier
5th August 2000, 04:18
Sam,


The person who runs the school inwhich your friend is a member,I would guess his name is Ralph Porfilio,formerly of Erie,Pa and now living in Greensboro,NC.If so,I can give you the truth about this indivdual,because I was once,saddly I report,a former student of his when he lived in Erie,Pa ,and again I sincerely regret ever having been a student of Porfilio.It is rather interesting in terms of timeing,because I have been engaged in extensive research of the "goshin jutsu kyo jujo" group and am planing to publish my finding next week on E-Budo.


As far as Michak is concerned,I have seen him compete,and I was not impressed.Michak is a classic case of "Style over Substance" a tradition Karate fighter such as Masahiko Tanaka or Mikio Yahara would kill Michak,because Michak as no koshi waza,no kime,no power in any of his waza,all I ever saw,was his flashly Bill Wallace type hook & roundhouse kicks and a over extended backfist.Michak "kata" was just nothing more than flash,viva open tournament acrobatics,which did not resemble authentic classical Karate in any form or manner know.




ken allgeier


[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 08-04-2000 at 10:46 PM]

5th August 2000, 04:37
As we all know, the samurai of feudal Japan were well known for practicing musical kata outside the castle walls. Often, they would dress up in their red-white-and-blue keikogi, usually made of satin, and then perform acrobatic high kicks and spins to the sounds of koto playing to a Latin or Rock-and-Roll beat. Afterwards, they would present each other with increasingly higher dan ranks and tell drunken stories of their former covert operations performed while in the shogun's secret service.

Vision Quest
5th August 2000, 05:51
Thanks all for the replies so far. this is fascinating, to say the least. There are a couple of other oddities we've been puzzling over:

The instructor claims to have a 3rd degree black belt in "Bu-gei" (Oriental weaponry). Yet my buddy says the only weapon the guy's ever taught is one single kata with the long bo, and that he admits that he "made up" that kata himself! This just seems odd for an instructor who must have had to learn many, many different katas and weapons to achieve this 3rd-dan rank in weaponry. Additionally, my friend has attended several seminars outside the dojo (from other styles) and has been told several times, by different instructors, that the way he was taught to hold and move the bo is not correct, at least by the standards of other traditional karate styles, like Shotokan, Ishhin-ryu, Goju ryu and others. They ALL share similar techniques, but my friend is the only "odd one out". Again, we're puzzling over why Goshin is the <I> only</I> style that does things radically different from all the other traditional karate styles?

The instructor also claims expertise with the sword, but is apparently unfamiliar with the term "iaido". Never heard of it. Also, the swords he displays in his office appear to be cheap imitiations of the kind found in novelty stores for $79.99. Even though he claims to "know the sword", he says that none of his students will be worthy of being taught it by him until they'd been with him 30 years! How convenient.

The instructor also claims to be one of the first three students promoted by Durant to black belt and asserts than he has trained without interruption for over 35 years. Durant is stated to be the founder (and at the time, the only "master") of the style in the US. Meaning my friend's instructor, with his 35 years' training in Goshin should be, if not <B><I>the </I></B> highest ranked Goshin masters in the country, then one of the top three. Yet he is regularly being promoted by a person named Vinson Christiano (not one of the other two first dans of Durant's), who is identified as "another master of the Goshin system". How can this Christiano person outrank my friend's instructor, if he was not even one of Durant's black belts? Where did he come from? Also Christiano teaches a style called "Tagei-Jutsu", which we can also find no information about at all. My friend's instructor just got promoted to 7th degree black belt by a person from a style no one's apparently ever heard of!

It just seems so odd that Goshin Do, a style that claims to be a "pure" and traditional style handed down from the Samurai, shares absolutely none of the katas, basic weapon techniques or history of <I>any </I> of the other legitimate, traditional karate styles. That, along with the bogus-sounding samurai claims, the cult-like atmosphere of the school and some other very questionable goings-on have prompted my friend to try and find out what's real and what might be fantasy there.

Vision Quest
5th August 2000, 06:08
I agree they didn't seem to do the 'standard' Okinawan or Japanese forms. I was under the impression that they made them up themselves. [/B]

Well, if they were just made up by Durant or some of his students, then that's fine, but it doesn't seem right to tell students that these katas were "handed down unchanged from the Samurai" if they weren't.


I fully agree their 'technique' might not be traditional, but they could definately make it work.[/B]

I've seen their technique. Their basics are pretty good, but they don't seem to know anything beyond stiff, formal, beginner basics. Even their most advanced students (brown and black) meet all attacks with a static, predictable front or rear stance, with a stiff, formal soto uke or other rote technique. That's all they seemed to know. They were stiff as boards, and had no concept whatever of fluid, dynamic technique. Students in other traditional karate arts are typically like this from white to maybe halfway to brown belt, but then they learn to move fluidly, and breathe and flow. But at my friend's dojo, even their nidans and sandans are like this.


So I'd guess the group was innovative, dynamically cohesive, had practical technique for self defense. [/B]

I personally haven't seen much I'd consider practical. As I mentioned above, they are very regimented into pre-set stances and blocks, but my friend hasn't learned much that's practical in real life. For instance, he says they've never learned any types of defenses against bear hugs or two-handed grabs, and their instructor also never teaches any defenses for being knocked to the ground. No defenses against knives, guns (disarming), carjacking, multiple attackers, etc. Just stance, block, punch, that's it.

The instructor also constantly puts down other styles, especially TKD and aikido, calling them "modern day junk". Which is bizarre, since they also claim Durant was a student of Aikido's founder, O-Sensei Morehei Ueshiba! My friend also says that the cult-like atmosphere of the dojo includes an unspoken edict that visiting other dojos or cross-training in other styles is forbidden and will brand a student a "traitor".

I've already printed out the replies so far, and will give them to my friend later today, I'll see what he says...


[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-05-2000 at 09:03 AM]

Vision Quest
5th August 2000, 06:20
[i]I agree they didn't seem to do the 'standard' Okinawan or Japanese forms. I was under the impression that they made them up themselves. [/B]

Why did they need to "make up" kata? If Mr. Durant had actually studied what, where and from whom he claimed to have studied, he would have taught the traditional kata he supposedly learned there. No other legitmate, traditional karate style makes up it's own kata instead of teaching the core kata of their style.

Vision Quest
5th August 2000, 14:40
[QUOTE]The instructor claims to have a 3rd degree black belt in "Bu-gei" (Oriental weaponry).

Bugei means martial (bu) arts (gei). You should tell your buddy to go to his dojo with an English/Japanese dictionary and look up whatever nonsense spills out of this guys gob.


Well, that's another claim that is printed right here in black and white in the guy's marketing brochure. Here it is, verbatim, complete with its inconsistent use of capitals: It says "1977- Promoted to the rank of 3rd degree Black Belt in the art of Bu-Gei (oriental Weaponry)

Oh, he also calls his school "honbu", a misspelling and mis-use of the term Hombu, since this is the only school apparently teaching this style and he has no other dojos that are affiliated wih him (gee, wonder why!).

Victor Smith
5th August 2000, 14:48
It seems Goshin Jutsu still raises many questions.

When I trained with Steve Newman, it was one of many dojo I would visit in many styles. They always welcomed me and their approach was interesting.

As in many cases, it depends on the instructor and the choices of teaching. The self defense techniques they practiced were effective (if on the showy side), and having worked with Joe Brague and his people, I have felt their capability.

No, I do not think they are a 'classical' Japanese or Okinawan system. But the individuals I worked with and competed against on occasion were competent, very competent.

That does not mean the same for the current instructor in question, of which I know nothing. But in every system I've seen there are instructors and there are instructors.

I don't personally book with modern tournament karate, and understand the criticism of Gary Michak and his work at that time. On the other hand, I've never seen one of the 'classical karateka' anywhere who could do what he did either.

I have no problem appreciating the athletic ability his efforts took, nor do I have any question of his kumite abilities in the venue of 20 years ago. He was in open competition and took what came his way. I don't doubt there were betters, but they didn't stand up there and do it either.

It's really they and others are doing very different things.
Why try and compare them. I never have. Gary's accomplishments (before his auto accident) have no reflection on others accomplishments.

But I reflect there are always those who wish to criticize.

I still stand that you have to evaluate any program and instructor and make your choices. That is sensible advice at any time.

I would also encourage anyone who can give a more complete history of Mr. Durant and his organization. My brief association did leave many questions in my mind, too.

Vision Quest
5th August 2000, 15:16
[i]I have heard Japanese use both "honbu" and "hombu" it mostly depends on where they come from in Japan. The kanji is the same either way.
The use of the word just means "head dojo" or "headquarters", no big deal. He most likely is the HQ for his "style" of whatever it is he teaches. [/B]

Well, this character hails from right here in the good ole US of A. He ain't never been to Japan! In any case, it's pretentious (as well as incorrect) to call your school the "headquarters" of the style if there are NO other associated dojos to report to the "headquarters"!

Vision Quest
5th August 2000, 15:29
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Mr. Smith,

I don't think Vision Quest was questioning the intstructors physical ability (please correct me if I am wrong) but rather his absurd claims and questionable lineage.


I don't know much about the guy's physical ability. According to my friend, this instructor spends most of the class sitting behind his locked office door, drinking Jack Daniels and smoking cigarettes. Usually he's accompanied by whichever young blonde female student he's hitting on at the moment.

Yes, it's the bizarre claims that caught my attention. The "reincarnated samurai" bit isn't in print anywhere, but is apparently rather a "secret" whispered in the change rooms by the more naive and worshipful students. Other claims <i> are</I> in print, however, like the Samurai prince thing and the jumping ship in Japan.

Ken Allgeier
5th August 2000, 16:52
I belive the webpage Samuel is talking about is:


http://pws.gamewood.net/~rlyjr/credo.htm


Samuel,

You could place a post in the Aiki Jujutsu section on E-Budo and ask about this "Aiki Jutsu"master Shigeru Murkami.



ken allgeier

Ken Allgeier
5th August 2000, 17:12
Sorry,

I just checked and The URL address on my last post, it's not there anymore,rather strange?


You can get the sam information from this URL



http://user.mc.net/~hugh/Durant.htm


and


http://www.rahul.net/goshin/pages/history.htm






ken allgeier

Tetsutaka
5th August 2000, 17:54
Originally posted by Vision Quest
Thanks for the reply. I actually have one of the brochures given out by this dojo, and the "Samurai prince" thing is right there in black and white. My friend didn't hear this stuff from an imaginative fellow student, he has heard the claims himself from the instructor. Including the claim about the katas being done outside Samurai castles.

Well there ya have it. My advice - don't just walk away - run...

It's rare that you get this kind of crap in writing, as most of these guys will have enough in "the ole tea kettle" to reserve some form of plausible deniability for the eventual backsliding.

In fact - if this guys is so deluded that he's putting this in writing, then I'd suggest that he might actually be dangerous. Anyone that is conviced of his fantasies to that level sould be avoided with due diligence.

BTW, Is this guy in Greensboro, NC?

TimHillman
5th August 2000, 19:15
Gerard Durant has been dead for over ten years. A lot of inaccurate myths have cropped up about him in that time. I believe that he spent time in Japan before the war and was also there for a time after the war, although I have no proof of this. I have a copy of a letter from Richard P. Baillargeon dated July 1,1969 to "All karate instructors" stating that "Mr. Durant, Godan Karate, is the authorized Seishin-Kai Union Representative for the North Eastern part of the United States." Richard P. Baillargeon was the United States Representative of Siyogo Kuniba from June, 1964 until October 1974. He left the Seishin-Kai to form the United States National Karate and JuJutsu Union. I also have copies of several of Durant's Seishin-Kai certificates, a certificate recognizing "Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo" as a school "in good standing of the Seishin-Kai Karate Union." I also have copies of 4th and 5th Dan ranking from Masaru Shintani and the Nippon Karate Kai. Mr. Durant taught the Shito Ryu kata of the Seishin-Kai to his early students. I believe he formulated the kata now taught in most of the Goshin schools a began teaching them in the early 1970's. You might try to contact his son Matthew Durant who lives in the Wilkes Barre, Pa. area. Goshin Do is I believe an off shoot of the Seishin-Kai now run by a gentleman named Ken Johnson.

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 02:17
[i]"Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo" [/B]

I got an email today from a guy who said that one translation of "Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo" is "place to play with your own body parts".

I don't claim to know Japanese, is this true, or just a funny joke?

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 02:32
Originally posted by TimHillman
Gerard Durant has been dead for over ten years. A lot of inaccurate myths have cropped up about him in that time.


Thanks, Tim. I just found a very interesting "biography" of Mr. Durant. The worshipful, awestruck tone of this article is typical of the cult-like atmosphere at my friend's Goshin Do dojo. The entire article (quite long) is at the following URL: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mtran/newsletter9901.html

For those who are just interested in a synopsis, I've condensed the article here, adding my own subtitles (in bold).

<B>Mystical Oriental Beginnings...</B>

"Gerard Durant was born on February 22, 1922 (2-22-22). This numerical symmetry makes a symbolic analysis tempting… legend has it that Horace Durant married in Japan, and Gerard Durant was the issue of that union. … Japanese in-laws disapproved of the union, but a maternal uncle, seeing his nephew's position as half gaijin …took pity on the boy. …after rigorous training in aikijutsu and karate under his uncle, young Gerard began to hold his own--sometimes even more than that…Gerard Durant may well have been trained in traditional Asian martial arts by Japanese teachers during his boyhood.…… our best evidence suggests he had training in at least two martial arts (conjecture has already led us to conclude that he was exposed to additional training), and his appetite for Asian fighting systems had been whetted".


<B>The Rambo rep and of course, the CIA!</B>

"Toward the beginning of the Second World War, Gerard Durant enrolled in the U. S. Army…friend and fellow martial artist, Kun Tao Grandmaster Arthur Sikes, characterized Gerard Durant's military service as "anything the government wanted done". At Master Durant's death in 1991, it was necessary to request his service records for a military funeral. The records arrived in an attaché case handcuffed to the wrist of a government courier who transported them directly to the funeral home and directly back to Washington--hardly standard procedure… On the basis of this information, we can assume an involvement in covert operations."


<B>Trained under all the masters of the Orient (and of course became a ninja too)!</B>

"Gerard Durant joined the U.S. Merchant Marines in the late … As soon as Durant's vessel docked in Japan, he jumped ship and (became) a student of Sensei Hirao Murakami at a time when only Japanese were taught the system ….Murakami Sensei, … did not issue the certificates and diplomas that are pro forma nowadays. after Gerard Durant jumped ship in Japan he joined a group known as the Yamabushi … who are credited by some (including members of the Goshin community) as providing the archetype for the Ninja. … Legend holds that he trained directly under O-sensei Ueshiba..."


<B>Magical Powers!</B>

"… Using his photographic memory, Gerard Durant recorded and reinterpreted knowledge throughout his life…Durant was said to possess the ability to control chi in order to lighten his body or make it heavier…(he would) take a piece of cardboard, like a cardboard box, and lean it up against the wall. We watched him walk up it and down it and never bend it. "When I asked him to do it again," Matthew Durant reports, " he just smiled at me and walked away."

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 02:49
Originally posted by Tetsutaka
[QUOTE][i]BTW, Is this guy in Greensboro, NC?

;o)

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-06-2000 at 02:24 PM]

Tonya Easton
6th August 2000, 03:15
Where to begin.....Here we go again.

Vision Quest - Do you really want the answers to your questions of do you just want to slam the style?
Who is the instructor and who is the student. Could it be that this guy is claiming to be a student of Mr. Durant and has nothing to back it?
I'm not surprised to see Kens reply and somehow I suspect maybe you aren't either.

I am a Goshinist and very proud of it. My Sensei is Mr Carl McClafferty who is presently in Japan visiting Otake Sensei, Nakamura Sensei and others there. He has NUMEROUS times given his email and home address to ANYONE with questions or interest in our style. Mr. Guy Powers who is a very knowledgeable man and unlike some others who post, actually researches and has interest to find out the truth and not just slam, has made comments and quotes previously on E Budo regarding this very subject. The "proof" was sent to him and he found it satisfactory.

Once again.... If you are truly interested in the art and truly want information instead of just jumping on an old band wagon..... Please email and I will be happy to connect you with a legitimate person who can answer your questions.

As for those who posted above stating that our style is stiff and we don't learn how to use a bo, defend against a knife attack.... those things are taught at even a purple belt level. Come at me with a bo and see what I can and can't do.

As for those who don't believe that goshinists are real martial artists.... you haven't met the ones I have and funny how none have accepted the invitations to come and see for themselves! We are all over the united states and can probably link you to one of our schools or intructors within a few hundred miles. We are not an "evil cult" and althought there may be those in other styles who may make an invitation to "teach someone a lesson", we are not like that.

As for the top three goshin black belts under Mr. Durant....I'm not sure if they are the top three, but they all trained directly under Mr. Gerald Durant and I would love to see anyone work with Mr. Cavalier, Mr. Cappela, Mr. Harmon, or Mr. McClafferty and make the statement that anyone of them are ineffective.

Please don't misunderstand my post. We are overall very friendly people with a genuine love of the art, and very willing to work with other schools and/or teach anyone willing to learn our style. It seems stupid to even have to say this but we are not a cult just normal people who love what we do and at the same time respect others styles also.

Don't believe everything you hear, I have little doubt based on this individuals previous posts, that the post to be "delivered next week", will be an array of one persons personal mission to discredit and slam something he knows NOTHING about.

Thank You to many of the above people who posted for not believeing everything that has been posted and especially for the statement that basically said go look for yourself and then judge for yourself.

Again my apologies for the tone of this post I'm just so tired of people disrespecting very honorable men they have never met and refuse to meet in spite of multiple invitations.

Thank you,

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 03:53
Originally posted by Tonya Easton

[QUOTE][i]Vision Quest - Do you really want the answers to your questions of do you just want to slam the style?
My friend is becoming increasingly skeptical of the bizarre claims made by his Goshin do Karate instructor and wishes to independently verify them with the martial arts communuty. That's all.

[i]I'm not surprised to see Kens reply and somehow I suspect maybe you aren't either.
Your assumptions are out in left field. Neither my friend nor I has ever heard of "Ken" before his post yesterday.

[i]Once again.... If you are truly interested in the art and truly want information instead of just jumping on an old band wagon.....
What "old band wagon"? We're not aware of Goshin Do karate ever being discussed here before. And discussion forums such as E-budo are wonderful opportunities for martial artists of all styles, skill levels and knowledge bases to join and share information. If you have information to add, post it here for all to see, your input would be welcome.

[i]As for those who posted above stating that our style is stiff and we don't learn how to use a bo, defend against a knife attack.... those things are taught at even a purple belt level.
Not at the Goshin Do Karate dojo my friend trains at.

[i]As for the top three goshin black belts under Mr. Durant....I'm not sure if they are the top three, but they all trained directly under Mr. Gerald Durant
I have, right here in front of me, a printed brochure that states that "Steve Capela, Bob Bohack and Ralph Porfilio were the first three students of Master Durant to recieve the coveted Black Belt". There is no mention at all in the brochure of the gentlemen you named.

[i]It seems stupid to even have to say this but we are not a cult
Ok...

[i]Don't believe everything you hear,
I don't. And neither does my friend. That's why he asked me to inquire about what he's heard with his own ears at this dojo. And read with his own eyes in the dojo's marketing brochures. And so, I posted here, to state the claims made by this particular Goshin Do instructor for all to see, and discuss them. What exactly is it about Goshin and the claims of some if its instructors that you feel shouldn't be discussed openly in a public forum?

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-05-2000 at 10:02 PM]

Tonya Easton
6th August 2000, 06:16
Vision,
Again I apologize for the tone of my post and for insinuating that you were somehow in league with Ken. You would probably better understand my position if you were aware of the many previous attacks on our style and the many untruths that have been written. when I saw the quote you printed from Samual, "Goshin....... a place to play with ones own body parts", It sounded to me like you were not really interested in learning the truth. Hence the content and tone of my reply.
As for the "three top black belts.." that you mentioned, if you re-read my post I did mention Mr. Capela and he is one of the very honorable persons that I was referring to. As for the other two, Mr. Bohac I have not personaly met, however both Mr. Harmon and my Sensei Mr. McClafferty trained under him also. As for Mr. Portfilio, I do not know him. It is my understanding that your belief of him being one of Mr. Durants first three black belts is incorrect. My information and understanding, is that Mr. Portfilio is/was a fourth dan at the time of Mr. Durants death. Possibly you or your friend misread or misunderstood the document, or the document you have is in error. I am definitally not the best historian however I can put you or your friend in contact with persons who can clarify any questions you may have. The problem is there is so much Bull---- out there it is really hard to determine the facts from the myths based on internet postings. These facts I have stated are true and documented.
I have no problem discussing Goshin on a public forum. I do however get very tired of hearing the same old crap from people who jump on posts like these to take another opportunity to disrepect something they no nothing about. That is why I offer the ability to E-mail, call or visit to clarify any questions one may have. It really does tend to separate the ones who just want to spout crap, from those who genuinely want to know.
I have not been involved in the previous posts, however just could not stand by and watch another round without offering up some truth.
I am sorry that there are people out there who have had bad experiances with instructors who CALL THEMSELVES goshinists. I'm sure just about every other style has had this occur as well.
I believe in this art and will continue to study it. I hope your friend really does some homework to find out what we are like. Possibly the person he is working with, again I don't know who that is, is not representative of the entire Goshin style.
Sorry for the length I just really wanted to answer any questions and clarify any misunderstandings.
As I am sure the attacks will continue from some, I will not jump in on the forum, but the offer remains for those to contact us if there is a true interest.

TimHillman
6th August 2000, 06:51
Sam Sharpe,
Interesting stories. Have you ever played the game where some one tells a story then it is repeated by several people until the last version no longer sounds anything like the original? I have never heard your funeral stories. They sound like some one's invention to me. I don't know Ralph Porfilio. Vince Christiano studied with Mr. Durant in the late 1960's and early 1970's. I believe that he left Gosin Jutsu in the mid 1970's. Steve Capela, William Cavalier and Bob Bohac were his senior students. Mr. Capela and Mr. Cavalier were ranked Black Belts in the Seishin-Kai, Mr. Cavalier was already a black belt in Seishin-Kai when he began training with Mr. Durant.
I met Mr. Durant several times at tournaments and clinics in the 1970's. He was an excellent practitioner and absolutely fearless. It's a shame that his reputation has been sullied with tall stories.

Brent Easton
6th August 2000, 07:21
Tim,
My wife was at the computer banging away and I had to log on and find out why. You hit the truth on the head about the stories. But the fact remains that Mr. Durant was friends with alot of old time Martial Artists who I don't think would have associated with him if he wasn't any good both as a martial artist and a man.
The problem is that everyone was kept in line until he died then it collapsed with everyone making claims and doing their own thing.

Tell everyone in NY that I said, HI.


Brent Easton

George Ledyard
6th August 2000, 09:10
"The instructor also constantly puts down other styles, especially TKD and aikido, calling them "modern day junk". Which is bizarre, since they also claim Durant was a student of Aikido's founder, O-Sensei Morehei Ueshiba! "

They're invited to come play at my place any time. We had a guy come in a couple of years ago whose karate teacher had said much the same thing. He went home saying that he was going to look for an Aikido dojo. Guess it wasn't what his teacher had led him to believe.

Seriously, from the number of things you've said about this place you have virtually covered the top ten warning signs of a bogus school. Kind of like the place I taught Aikido for a while years ago. The head Sensei claimed to be teaching Ninjutsu and had all sorts of certificates up on his wall. The problem was that I could read Japanese just well enough to puzzle them out. His only Ninjutsu training had come from two weekend seminars with one of the big guys in California, but at least the certificates looked cool! Anyway, there are many reasons you train. Being able to handle yourself may be one of them but it is usually one of the minor reasons for those who have been in it for a long time. When there is that much bull#$%^(* flying around a person, he can't possibly represent the kind of role model that you'd be looking for in a teacher (unless you are training to be a confidence man). Any gym teacher can give you a good workout, tell your brother to set his standards higher and look around for someone worth training with. The teacher is more important than the style.

I want to be clear that I am in no way demeaning the style which this teacher syas he represents or the teachers that developed the style. But the specific instructor you describe is clearly misrepresenting himself. And forget the "thiry years till you are worthy to be taught stuff". One of the absolute dead giveaways on the cult front is secret teachings that are only given to the elect. Figure at that rate you're good for about 36 thousand dollars of income to this fellow before you're ready for swordsmanship. I wouldn't hang out waiting.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 08-06-2000 at 03:20 AM]

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 17:18
Originally posted by Tonya Easton
Vision,
Again I apologize for the tone of my post and for insinuating that you were somehow in league with Ken.
No need to apologize, I was just puzzled by the assumption I was in cahoots with someone I'd never even heard of.

[i]When I saw the quote you printed from Samual, "Goshin....... a place to play with ones own body parts", It sounded to me like you were not really interested in learning the truth.
Like I said, that's something someone emailed me, and since I neither read nor speak Japanese, I have no idea of that's actually one of the possible translations. Is it?

[i]As for Mr. Portfilio, I do not know him. It is my understanding that your belief of him being one of Mr. Durants first three black belts is incorrect.
Possibly you or your friend misread or misunderstood the document, or the document you have is in error.
We don't know what the truth is, that's why we're asking. We did not "misread" the brochure, I typed the claim verbatim from it.

I think it's great that we have someone here now who is knowledgeable about Goshin and Durant. Here's the first question my friend would like to know: Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant earn his Shodan? Looking forward to your reply.

Tonya Easton
6th August 2000, 17:35
Thank You for understanding my frustration. For the questions you have asked above I will refer them to my husband, Brent Easton, who is very involved in the history and also Mr. Hillman. They know much more than I.

Good luck on your quest for the truth, it is out there for those that really want it.

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 17:51
Originally posted by TimHillman
Interesting stories. Have you ever played the game where some one tells a story then it is repeated by several people until the last version no longer sounds anything like the original?
Yes, I'm wondering if that is the case with Mr. Durant's "jumped ship, became a 6th degree ninja, etc" stories.

[i]I have never heard your funeral stories. They sound like some one's invention to me.
Well, a wee bit of clarification here, they're not <I>my</I> stories, I found the bio at http://pw1.netcom.com/~mtran/newsletter9901.html

[i]I met Mr. Durant several times at tournaments and clinics in the 1970's. He was an excellent practitioner and absolutely fearless. It's a shame that his reputation has been sullied with tall stories.
If people are telling tall tales, then they likely originated with these Goshin instructors like my friend's, and others. And also by the person who wrote that bio (link above). My friend simply wants the truth. Here are a couple specific questions he asked me to post:

1) Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant receive his Shodan? His Nidan? Sandan, etc?

2) Was Mr. Durant a "ninja"?

3) Were the Goshin Do Katas really done today exactly the way they were done outside Samurai castles centuries ago?

4) Did Mr. Durant study under O'Sensei Morehei Ueshiba and if so, did he achieve black belt rank in aikido?

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-06-2000 at 04:33 PM]

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 18:27
[i]Seriously, from the number of things you've said about this place you have virtually covered the top ten warning signs of a bogus school. ............(2) The teacher is more important than the style.
Yes, this is about the way if it. My buddy states that the students are expected to practically worship this guy. Young blonde female students can expect to be hit upon before they even reach yellow belt. Several times a year, the plate is passed to buy expensive, lavish gifts for the instructor, with each student expected to give at least $20, if not more. The names of students who give little or nothing are reported to the instructor. Students who give large cash gifts or free services (fixing the guy's vehicle, taking him on expensive fishing trips, etc) are given what the instructor calls "executive privilege".

[i]And forget the "thiry years till you are worthy to be taught stuff". One of the absolute dead giveaways on the cult front is secret teachings that are only given to the elect. Figure at that rate you're good for about 36 thousand dollars of income to this fellow before you're ready for swordsmanship. I wouldn't hang out waiting.
Most likely it's because he can't do anything with the sword and he figures people will be gone in less than 30 years so he won't have to show them anything.
Yeah this to me was pretty much a dead giveway. Especially when the guy didn't know the term "iaido" and had those cheap plastic-handled fake swords on the wall! :o)

[i]I think your buddy should sit down and figure out what he wants from the Martial Arts and find a school that will fit not only his peace of mind but his martial needs as well.
Yes, he's already pretty much done making his decision. But for some reason, he's even more keen on finding the truth, now that he's decided to leave. I think he's pissed about being duped and lied to and wants to know just how bad the deception was. Can't say I blame him.

Osoto2000
6th August 2000, 20:58
I Know very little about Karate, my sport is Judo, But could some one please advise me if this Goshin Jutsu, is the same as or has anything to do with, the Kodakan Judo's Goshin Jutsu Kata.
This Kata was created in 1956 and has twenty-one self defence tecniques agianst unarmed and armed attackers. Goshin Jutsu Kata is closley related to Kime no Kata, but being newer has defence against pistol as well knife and stick. It uses a combination of Throws, armlocks, strikes and kicks.
I would be interested to Know?
Domo,
Ray Brown.

Brent Easton
6th August 2000, 21:02
Sam,

I originally sent this via private message. My apologies I hit the wrong button.

I would tell your friend to leave also and find a reputable instructor. Personally I believe that the Goshin formulated by Mr. Durant is highly effective and well respected by other martial art if learned from a person who was taught the "old" style and techniques.

To answer your questions, I will try to do so to the best of my knowledge. I base my answers on copies of menjos and communications that I have amassed over 20 years.
1.) So as not to appear biased, it was independently verified by Guy Powers, that Mr. Durant was at least a Sandan in the Seishin Kai in 1967. Mr. Powers is well known in the marital arts community. He has ammased a library of documentation for people who claim to be what they say. He does not suffer "self Promotion" lightly and goes to great lengths to discover and verify the truth. He has no past or current affiliation with Mr. Durants Goshin. This is not the highest or only ranking Mr. Durant achieved , but it should answer your question.

2.) A "ninja"????? No.

3.) That I cannot answer, as I was not present centuries ago. Some of the katas I was taught were; Heian 1,3 and 4, Tekki 1, Wanshu, Gojushiho, Hangetsu, Bassai-dai and Kusanku-sho. All of these are "traditional" katas. Are they exactly the same as traditional katas taught in Japan or China? Who knows for sure. In some cases they are exactly the same and in others there are subtle differences from those currently taught by other styles. I do know that Mr. Durant required a student to make up a kata and be able to explain the bunkai of the kata for Shodan. A few of these non-traditional katas he liked and they were retained, however most were not even codified and written down.

4.) That I do not know. I do know, from correspondence that I have, that Mr. Durant studied Aiki from Murakami who last time I heard resided in Hawaii. However on the aiki side, Mr. Hillman would be better able to answer that question.

I originally thought there were only a few people misleading students and potential students about the style of self defense formulated by Mr. Durant. Sadly, almost monthly there seems to be a new one that pops up. The internet has ccreated a whole new environment , people can write a story, whether fictional, factual or a combination of both. The fact is there are only a few people who can tell you the truth through first hand knowledge.

Mr. Durant studied the martial arts in a time (prior to the late 70's) when the focus was more on knowledge than the piece of paper to hang on the wall. It was a time in the States when karate was a generic terms used to describe all open hand forms of the martial arts. You would find those described today as Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, Chinese and others wroking out together. The would share techniques, katas, and ideas. Their only interest was to enhance their knowledge.

In my opinion, the commercialization of the arts have led to many problems and this is an example of one of them. It is a shame that some people have felt the need, whether for economic reasons, lack of character, or just ignorance to promote their own personal agenda. As I stated at the beginning I would not study under these types of individuals and they are very easy to spot. They do not however represent the style originally formulated by Mr. Durant and taught to me by my Sensei.

Sincerely,
Brent Easton

Vision Quest
6th August 2000, 21:30
Originally posted by Brent Easton
Sam,I originally sent this via private message. My apologies I hit the wrong button.

I replied to you privately as well. Hey, better to intend to send public, but send private than the other way around! I've seen some excrutiatingly embarassing gaffes posted that way!

I just wanted to comment specifically on the kata thing. You said some of the Goshin katas you learned included Heian, Wanshu, and Kusanku-sho. I also recognize these as well-known traditional kata that are studied by many traditional styles, though some styles seems to do/spell them slightly differently.

My friend gave me a list of the only katas taught at this Goshin do dojo. They are: hajimete, futatsu, ichi-bando, mitsu, futatsu, yonaka, shamitsu, kishu and godan. A Japanese aquaintence told him that "ichi-bando" just means "the best way". Mitsu means "three of", as in Mitsubishi ("three diamonds). A "Kishu" is a japanese dog breed, similar to the Akita. And godan, as we all know, means 5th man, or 5th dan. The Japanese guy said the other names don't mean anything in japanese, at least the way my friend was taught to pronounce them.

Has anyone else ever heard of these katas? Where did they come from? What happened to all the other katas that Durant should have learned and passed on if he was truly the traditional master many posters here say he was?

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-06-2000 at 05:08 PM]

Brent Easton
7th August 2000, 03:03
Sam,
First of all, I am not defending all the people that are claiming to teach the Goshin style as formulated by Mr. Durant The Goshin system that Mr. Durant built/taught virtually destroyed itself from in-fighting.
Now to answer your question about katas:
Hajimete, Futatsu, and Mittsu Mae Undo I was never taught. I was told that they are just beginning katas to get a new student used to moving, much as Funakoshi introduced the Taikyo katas of Shotokan.
Ichi-Bando I was taught but I do not know it's origins.
"Yonaka" I have never heard of but I think it's just a misspelling of Ananko, the Shorin Ryu kata.
"Shamittsu" I have never heard of nor can I find it in any of my historical documents.
"Kishu" is an extremely short abbrevation for Kishu Tsegeki no Gata.
"Godan" is a kata that is usually only taught to someone in the Dan ranks. (I discovered while researching this a note I made to myself a few years back to find out the origin of Godan, so thanks for the reminder.)

The interesting thing is that Hajimete, Futatsu, Mittsu, Ichi-Bando are katas for rokyu through gokyu but Kishu Tsegeki and Godan are sankyu and dan katas. There is a lot missing in between compared to what I was taught.

Your question about what happen to the traditional katas, is a good one for which I do not have an answer. I was taught them by my Sensei, who was taught them by his immediate Sensei and Mr. Durant.

Sincerely,

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 05:07
Originally posted by Brent Easton
Hajimete, Futatsu, and Mittsu Mae Undo I was never taught. I was told that they are just beginning katas to get a new student used to moving, much as Funakoshi introduced the Taikyo katas of Shotokan.
Yes, I'm familiar with the taikyo katas, as very basic, but powerful beginner forms. But why didn't Durant use them, instead of making up his own? Unless Durant never learned them in the first place?

[i]Ichi-Bando I was taught but I do not know it's origins.
We don't either, but at this point, my friend has decided to find out.

After all, what is he supposed to do at his new dojo, when it comes time to perform kata? They will be expecting him to know kata like seisan, sanchin, kusanku, etc, but he'll have to admit he's never heard of them. If he does a Goshin kata, they'll all know it's just some kind of made-up thing. All this time he's been told he is studying the oldest, most ancient, traditional karate style on the planet, yet when he leaves his dojo to seek another, he'll find that no one has ever heard of his style. Remember, he's been told that the katas he's learning were passed down through the Goshin system directly to him from the Samurai. And that these exact katas were performed outside Samurai castles centuries ago.

Of course, my friend won't be repeating the bogus claims about his sensei being a reincarnated samurai, and his sensei's sensei being a ninja and all that crap. But still, it will be an awfully rude awakening. He said he is thinking about maybe joining another dojo, but not mentioning Goshin. If asked about the basics he knows (which are actually not all that bad), I suggested he just vaguely say he took a bit of karate when he was younger (which is an honest statement). He says he doesn't mind starting over as a white belt, as long as he's in a legitimate style this time.

Tonya Easton
7th August 2000, 05:13
Sam,

Brent has retired for the evening however I think I can shed some light on the misunderstanding.

Mr. Durant did teach what you are talking about, otherwise my husband and I would not know them. Our Sensei trained under both Mr. Durant and Bob Bohac.

We have no explaination as to why the instructor your friend had, was not teaching them. All we can speak for is the teachings of Mr. Durant.

Who is the instructor?

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 05:36
Hi, Tonya,

You posted " Mr. Durant did teach what you are talking about, otherwise my husband and I would not know them"

Which katas are you referring to? The traditional ones (Heian, Wanshu, and Kusanku-sho, etc.) or the ones my friend has been taught in the Goshin Do school?

Regarding the kata called "Godan", my buddy tells me students are taught this one as early as purple belt, depending on how much "executive privilege" they've earned.

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-07-2000 at 12:41 AM]

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 06:21
Originally posted by Brent Easton
"Kishu" is an extremely short abbrevation for Kishu Tsegeki no Gata.

Thanks for the clarification. What exactly does"Kishu Tsegeki no Gata" mean?

By the way, here is a link I found to the Japanese Kishu Dog: http://www.nhk-chubu-brains.co.jp:80/DDT-E/mie/mihama/dog.html

Why did Mr. Durant teach a kata he made up and named after a dog, if he supposedly had all those traditional katas to offer his students?

Tonya Easton
7th August 2000, 14:47
I am referring to Heian, Wanshu etc.. not the ones your friend learned. I think Brent addressed it in his previous post. As we said Godan is a Dan kata.

Is your friend in North Carolina? My husband, myself and two of or kids who also train, will be attending a seminar down there soon. If he is close perhaps he would like to meet and see what we do. (The seminar is NOT in gressboro.)

Again...who is the instructor? I would like to research his history with Goshin and ask Mr. McClafferty etc about him.

I don't know anything about a dog kata. I don't even know if the info you are referring to in the URL page is accurate I haven't visited it. Again there are a lot of fictional stories out there. I really don't feel the need to investigate everyone of them. We have the documented facts regarding Mr. Durant and have first hand seen the effectiveness of what he taught. To chase through the internet checking out all the unvbelievable stories would be exhausting with any style!

Are you also involved in the arts?

Tonya Easton
7th August 2000, 14:50
P.S.

Mr. Durant did not "supposedly have all those traditional katas", he DID have them or again we would not know them. Just because your "friends instructor" does not teach them, does not mean that Mr. Durant did not.

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 15:53
Originally posted by Tonya Easton
I don't know anything about a dog kata. I don't even know if the info you are referring to in the URL page is accurate I haven't visited it.

Well, that's why you don't know if it's accurate...you haven't visited it!

To reiterate, my friend's Goshin Do karate instructor teaches a kata called "kishu". The word "Kishu", in Japanese, refers to a breed of dog. The dog is called the Kishu Dog. The URL I posted goes to a site dedicated to the Kishu dog. Now, was that so difficult? :o)

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 16:43
Originally posted by Brent Easton
Sam,Mr. Durant was at least a Sandan in the Seishin Kai in 1967.
Thanks, Brent, but we're getting ahead of ourselves already. There are all sorts of claims about sandans in one style, and coming home from Japan with a 6th dan in something else, and studying with ninjas and Samurai princes and all that, but let's start with the basics:

Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant receive his Shodan?

Thanks.

p.s. You still haven't commented on the extremely detailed biography of Durant that is posted at the following URL: http://pw1.netcom.com/~mtran/newsletter9901.html
This biography includes claims that Mr. Durant grew up in Japan, was involved in secret covert ops for the goverment, trained with ninjas and had magical powers. Again, do you feel this is an accurate biography?

Tonya Easton
7th August 2000, 16:46
Please re-read my 4th paragraph of my last post! As I previously stated, "I do not feel the need to invesigate.............".

Obviously the dialogue here has disinigrated. My husband and I have spent alot of time and tried our best to answer your questions with facts and respect. You have chosen not to answer the questions I have posted back to you therefore I am at a disadvantage not being able to fully investigate your questions. One URL does not a fact make!

Good luck to your "friend". As I have previously stated and in many ways proven or given the avenue for you to prove them to yourself, Mr. Durants teachings are very effective and legitimate.

Tonya Easton
7th August 2000, 16:53
Sam,

I understand your last post was to Brent however, in reply, If he had a Sandan I'm betting that means he had a Shodan first. Also previously stated that is not the only ranking he has, it is just one of them. In addition as I previously stated we are do not feel the need to address every URL posted about Mr. Durant. Freedom of speech you know, people can say whatever they want, with or without factual basis.

Tonya Easton
7th August 2000, 17:04
Okay I had to do it.... I went to the URL you listed regarding Mr. Durants "biography". I don't know the author, but I would say, take the quotes of his son and Mr. Capela, and students since they are the ones who actually know from first hand conversations and experiance. As for the speculation in other parts.... as the author states thats speculation.
I know Brent visited this site last evening, I am assuming (risky thing to do), that he felt the quotes by Mr. Matthew Durant and Mr. Capela should be self explainatory.

Why aren't you more interested in the background and lineage of the "instructor" in question. I don't think your friend studied directly under Mr. Durant....

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 17:14
Wow, this is what makes life so interesting, no two people react the same way to the same situation. When faced with facts that threaten the security of their belief system, some people work hard to obtain all the facts and claims, then sift through them to attempt to arrive at the truth. Others focus only on information that tends to lend credence to their belief system, and ignore evidence to the contrary. And some just stick their fingers in their ears and chant "na na, naNA na, I can't hear you" . What a great and fascinating world we live in!

Tonya Easton
7th August 2000, 17:22
That was uncalled for and rude. I have only tried to help by either anwering your questions or directing you to someone who could.

Obviously you would rather Brent respond as he is the more factual one and doesn't tend to let snide comments get to him like I do. Possibly I was in error asking him to reply to you in the first place. I am more the optimist and he the pessimist. I truly believed you had a genuine interest in the facts so that your "friend" could base a decision as to where to go next and understand our style. I say OUR style not necessarily the one the unknown "instructor" is teaching.

I truly wish your "friend" the best of luck.
Goodbye

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 17:47
Wow. Such a simple question: where'd the founder of this style get his Shodan?

But after over FIFTY posts and four pages of replies, not one student of this style has been able to answer it...fascinating.

Brent Easton
7th August 2000, 19:27
Sam,

Your question re: Taikyo katas:
"But why didn't Durant use them, instead of making up his own? Unless Durant never learned them in the first place?"

My response:
Why did Funakoshi create them? He didn't originally learn them from someone else. Why doesn't Isshin Ryu theach them? I can go on and on but I think your question was an attempt to irrate and it didn't work.

Your question:
"Which katas are you refering to? the traditional ones (Heian, Wanshu, Kusanku-sho, etc.) or the ones my friend has been taught in the Goshin Do school?"

My response:
I've already answered that previously. However, there are also Gankaku, Suishi, Tokomine, Sakugawa, Tsukensitahaku (sp?) and Chantanyara (sp?), that I was taught.

Your question:
"Thanks for the clarification. What exactly does "Kishutsegeki no gata" mean?" "Why did Mr. Durant teach a kata he made up and named after a dog, if he supposedly had all those traditional katas to offer his students"

My response:
I may have misspelled the kata as others might, so shoot the messenger. I believe it is of Chinese origin but I could be wrong. I've never cared to ask. Maybe someone else reading this may be able to correct my spelling or give a proper translation. Why have others made up katas when the traditioinal katas were around?

Your Question:
"When, where and from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant receiv his Shodan"

My response:
I gave you an independent source to verify that Mr. Durant received a Sandan from Richard Balligeon of the Seishin Kai. Your question is an insult for I do not know how someone could go from rokyu to Sandan without earning the ranks in between.

Your statement:
"You haven't commented on the extremely detailed biography of Durant that is posted at the following URL: etc, etc."

My Response:
Yes, I have. You just need to read the previous responses to know how I fell about it. Also, re-read my wife's response at 10:46 a.m. it's pretty accurate.

Concerning "your friend" and this supposedly Goshin instructor in Greensboro. He may have been told all those stories but I find it hard to believe that any rational, sane, secure and halfway educated individual would fall for any of that obvious bull... for any lenght of time. I was once told about the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, boggyman, etc. Yet, after about 7 years of age I figured out that it was all lies. So I find it hard that anyone would be so gulliable to fall for most of those stories.

Your comments and questions were find up to the point when you got snide with my wife. She, against my wishes, tried to help you out and answer your questions. I did not originally believe that you were asking for a "friend" or that you do not have an alterior motive. Yes, there are some ineffective and insecure instrutors that claim to teach Mr. Durants' Goshin and I honestly told you that I wouldn't stay there. Yet, you belabored the point and then the subtle attacks. I will tell you the same thing that Mr. McClafferty has said, if you don't think it's an effective style then come an visit me. I will be happy to provide my address to anyone that sends me a private e-mail.

Sincerely,

Brent Easton

Vision Quest
7th August 2000, 20:35
Thanks for ther reply, Brent. Sorry you and your wife are taking this so personally. I'm puzzled why asking basic questions about the style elicits such an emotional response from some of the goshin students here on e-budo. Odd.

All we'd asking is where, when, by whom, and in what style the founder of Goshin received his Shodan. This is a logical, legitimate question that any student of a traditional style should easily and readily be able to answer about their style's founder. But to date, this question has been ignored, sidestepped and now called "an insult" by Goshin people. We're still patiently seeking an answer. Thanks,

Jeff Cook
8th August 2000, 02:57
Samuel,

As a slightly-interested observer up to this point, my impression is that the Easton's have done their best to provide you with the information that they have.

I also get the impression by reading your posts that you are purposely trying to be sarcastic and inflamatory, and you are trying to tie-in the (apparent) nutcase instructor in question with Durant Sensei, when there does not seem to be a connection at all. Why are you doing that?

They have admitted that the style's organization has suffered damage due to nutcase spinoffs. I am also curious why you are changing your focus from the N.C. instructor to a dead instructor that cannot defend himself?

Also, concerningyour question about the shodan: It is obvious to me that they do not know. He received his sandan (I think they said) in 1967. They probably have not been able to dig up the information. I don't see anything suspicious or deceptive about that.

As far as your cult allegations, you are probably on the mark with the N.C. situation, but what the heck does that have to do with the Eastons???

I appreciate your digging for further information, but don't whack off your own toes with the shovel.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu (completely unrelated to the aforementioned style/organization)

Victor Smith
8th August 2000, 03:29
In the interest of clarity, there are some facts about martial arts history and rank which must be considered.

Many Okinawan systems adopted rank in the late 40's and 50's and just awarded a rank to a practionier. So some of the 'students' were awarded 3rd or 4th dans.

In the Isshinryu system, its founder Shimabuku Tatsuo, would award dan ranking to Marines at the close of their tour of duty in Okinawa (about 1 1/2 years) and most frequently in the 50's give a rank of 5th, 6th or 7th dan.

In his case, he was awarding the rank he felt they could rise to in time (never figuring they would return to Okinawa).

I have no knowledge of Jerry Durant's history, but his getting a San Dan without Sho and Ni Dan awards is not inconsistant with the history of the Okinawan systems in the the last century.

Perhaps some don't like that truth, but that doesn't change things. If you had trained with some of the GJKJ people I've met you would have found some merit in their work.

Yes today, anything goes and anyone can claim anything.

Why would someone create new forms, perhaps because of an honest attempt to train beginners better. Nothing done wasn't created once upon a time. Is that good or bad? There's no answer to that.

Before Itosu drempt up teaching karate to secondary students, Most Okinawan Shorin Systems taught beginners either Nihanchi or Seisan kata.

In Isshinryu the founder saw no reason to use those new forms and began with Seisan. Now both sides of an issue have an argument. If you want to argue about such trivial matters, feel free.

But in a practioner, what the instructor produces shows their worth.

Some things to consider.

Vision Quest
8th August 2000, 03:39
Hi, Jeff, thanks for the reply

<B>my impression is that the Easton's have done their best to provide you with the information that they have....Also, concerning your question about the shodan: It is obvious to me that they do not know.</B>

If they just plain didn't know, they should have just said so! The're nothing wrong or cult-like in not being aware of all the facts about one's style. But this is a VERY basic question that most students of a traditional style should either know, or at least, be able to find out quite easily. These "goshinists" have been asked repeatedly where their founder got his shodan. But instead of replying, they ignore and sidestep the question, or refuse to answer, claiming the question is "an insult".

<B>He received his sandan (I think they said) in 1967.</B>

Great, but I wasn't asking about sandan ranks. We're trying to research this from the bottom up, which means starting with shodan.

<B>you are trying to tie-in the (apparent) nutcase instructor in question with Durant Sensei, when there does not seem to be a connection at all. Why are you doing that?</B>

Good question, glad to answer. The way we look at it, there are several possibilities about this guy:

1) He's a legitimate instructor of a legitimate style, taught to him by legitimate founder who has a verifiable lineage in traditional, classical karate-do.

2) The style and founder are legitimate, but my friend's instructor has bastardized it and is telling tall tales.

3) The founder was bogus, but duped my friend's instructor into really believing this stuff and the poor fool is just passing it on to his students.

or

4) Both the founder and the instructor in question are bogus and made the whole thing up to con people.

So, after much discussion, we arrived at the conclusion that the only way to know the truth was to first see if the style and its founder are legitimate. If they prove to be so, and also aren't making the claims this instructor is, then we're pretty much got our answer. And the first step is to obtain and verify Mr. Durant's "resume". Make sense?

Jesse
8th August 2000, 03:55
I was introduced to the style in 1977 at the age of eleven here in Erie Pa. I spent 15 years with the style. I trained mostly under students of Durant but I have also trained under him directly. In my my final years with the system I also began asking questions about goshin jutsu history. I was also puzzled by the fact that no history mentions Goshin Jutsu as a style. There was no evidence or record of the kata we were taught were legitimate. when I tried doing some historical research on the system ,after Durants death, I found nothing but brick walls.
Durant was born in Uttica new york,he served in the airborne over Europe during WW2. There is no record of him ever being in Japan. Durant did himself claim to be born in Japan and his father sent him to Canada to aviod the war. Durant was very evasive about from whom he studied and what style. Durant claimed the rank of tenth dan for about the last ten years he was alive. Durant had many certificates of rank from all kinds of styles and organizations. I have some friends who have tried to validate these to find some conection to a legitimate style and organization, so far they have all come up short. I would appreciate what specific style or rank Guy Powers has validated.
I have personally recieved rank from Durant during my years with the style. Most of the certificates are written out in Japanese. I had these sent out and translated. They were found to be jibberish and meaningless. The translaters felt that he was copying from books and that they were basically a joke. Email me and I will mail them to who ever would like to see these certificates.
Durant spent his final years in Texas convincing many that he was half Japanese. He started a strange ritual where he would bow his head and students would kiss is forehead which I thought rather odd. Maybe someone in here can explain the history of this odd ritual in karate. He also developed an asian accent during his final years in Texas.
I personally liked him. He was very charismatic and full of alot of energy and humor.

Ken Allgeier
8th August 2000, 08:32
Since this thread is about Ralph Porfilio and his Goshin-Do Karate Institute in Greensboro,NC,I will state what I know about him.As I stated earlier,I was once and unfortunatly a student of Porfilio,from 1979-1982 when he had a school in Erie,Pa.In August of 1981,I recived my quote-unquote black belt from Profilio,I do not consider this to be a legitiamte shodan,because Profilio did not teach authentic Japanese Karate,which Profilio claimed to teach.If Profilio claimed to teach a eclectic American moderen style,for example lets name it kick-punch for sport,it would be a completely different story,but it is not.

Some people have misunderstood the situation,Profilio did not do anything in a personal nature against me,except that he lied to all his students while in Erie,Pa and taught,what we thought was real,in a historical sense a legitimate style of Karate.Instead Profilio taught in terms of classical Karate ,nothing more than,what was good for the open tournament scene.I would like to state that I was elected outstanding novice student 1980 and outstanding male student 1981.Profilio's school while he was in Erie,Pa was called the "Imperial Martial Arts Club".My involvement with Profilio,I guess I can chalk it up to being stupid,naive,young,gullible,stupid and not knowing any better.There was no internet at that time to help check out facts and find information,Profilio was vary anti-intellectual,manifested by the fact that he did not encourage his students to read,his strategy was one of keeping your students ignorant and thus,they will believe your bullsh*t.


Ralph Profilio did start his training from Jerry Durant in 1965 in Erie,Pa ,he was in the first group of students Durant taught and recived his black belt from Durant( along with Tom Carr,Steve Capela,Bob Bohach).Jerry Durant was his only teacher and what Profilio taught is what Durant taught him, and what he is teaching now in NC,I do not know,but by what Sam has stated on his post,it sounds the same as when Profilio taught in Erie,Pa.What I am writing about is not some kind of vagueness,but a dirrect connection to the events and players in this drama.What some people do not understand,is that I live in Erie,Pa( a small city)this is where Durant started the 'goshin jutsu kyo jujo',I have been around these people for quite some time,unlike other people who live faraway,so maybe I understand the situation a bit better than others.

Profilo learned from Durant and the empty-handed forms were taught from the curriculum that Durant taught(i.e no Shito Ryu Kata's)I have all my qualification sheets from Profilio and here is the list of forms that he taught.

1 hajimete undo no Karate

2 futatsu me undo Karate

3 yonka

4 ichi bando

5 shimitsu

6 ugoku ni roku

7 kishu totsugeki

8 godan

9 chuoku te


While teaching in Erie,Profilio was responsible for one of his students almost dieing because of certain actions after class.Profilio had this initiation ceremony for his new black belts.After receiving your blackbelt,the new blackbelt had to fight all the other blackbelts at one time(i.e they all rushed in at the same time)safty equipment was used,but this meant that you still got beat up anyway,then after being physically exhausted,you had to free-style spar with each senior black belt one at a time,which also meant that you got beat up again,sounds more like a street gang than the noble pursuit of Budo!Well a student( I will not use his name because he has a right to privacy) who was in his 2ed year in college and in vary good physical shape,went through this initiation and about two hours after the beating,when at home, passed out and went into a coma for several weeks and almosted died and for what?It was because of this that Profilio left Erie for NC.


Profilio also ran his school as his own personal harem,eventhough he had a steady girlfriend( one of his students) he still had sexual relationships with other women,some from the school and other not members of his school.He used to boast to us(male) student about his sexual exploits with these women and gave us details about his girlfriend.

Profilio told us in class that the style he taught 'gjkj' was a "master style,taught only to masters in Japan".What was never explained was: who were these masters and in what city in Japan did they train and what was the name of there dojo.He also told in class that the history of our style was started by ,bandits in China who used to watch the monks practicis the martial arts and then these bandits went to Okinawa and developed their style of Karate,there in Okinawa,then these bandits or there descendents went to Japan and combined there criminal Ryu with Aiki Jujutsu,thus creating goshin jutsu.I also have some literature from Bob Bohach which parrllels this story.


Profilio also told us that when we recive our black belts ,we are ranked in both Karate and Jujutsu,eventhough which Ryu the Jujutsu was based on was never stated,nor were any Nihon Jujutsu terminalogy ever used.He often said in class that when a student becomes a black belt in his school they will be registered in Japan;it was never explained to which organization we were to be registered to and I nor anyone else ever recived a diploma from Japan.

On the diplomas that Profilio gave out, it is writen on them,,,,

School of Karate--Self Defense-- Oriental Weaponry


Profilio had no knowledge of Ryukyu Kobujutsu or Kobudo,nor of Nihon Kobujutsu or Kobudo.He made up his own "Bo" form,quite silly & useless when compared to the classical kata's.One of his black belts made up some forms with a pair of short sticks,also silly and Profilio made up a nunchaku form with high & jumping kicks,also vary silly.Even though he claims to teach , traditional Japanese martial arts,he has a anti- intellectual approuch to life and does not understand or has ever come into contact with authentic Budo.He created a school ( in Erie) which looked more like a whorehouse than a dojo,walls painted in red, a wall to wall red carpet, a big I.M.A.C. mural on the wall( with him in it).He is or was a meglamaniac, a master of the bulls**t,who created a cult of personality for himself while he lived in Erie.


Here is some literture from Prifilio school while he lived in Erie,Pa.

" Ralph Porfillo,5th degree Black Belt.Founder of the Imperial Martial Arts Club.Profilio has been active in Karate for well over 17 years,at present he holds rank in 3 Arts,A 3rd degree black belt in Jiu-Jitsu,3rd derree Black belt in Bujutsu(weaponry) and a master rank in Goshin Do Karate.He is a registered member of several national and World-wide Karate Organizations,he is also registered in Osaka & Tokyo Japan.I.M.A.C classes are run formally and traditiionally.I.M.A.C teaches Karate as it would be taught in the Orient.It is not the carefree teachings of some of these modern day schools."







ken allgeier

[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 08-08-2000 at 02:37 AM]

Jeff Cook
8th August 2000, 13:49
Samuel,

You definitely bring up some valid questions.

Again, my point is to INVESTIGATE; don't DENIGRATE and CASTIGATE!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

MarkF
9th August 2000, 09:50
Welcome Jesse, to E-budo.:wave:
If you continue to post on E-budo, the policy is that you sign with your full, real name. Use the signature box feature. Set it and forget it.:smokin:

carl mcclafferty
10th August 2000, 09:47
FOLKS*
I AM IN JAPAN WITH A DOUBLE LANGUAGE COMPUTER, WHICH I ADMIT STILL BAFFLES ME. MY GOSHIN JUTSU KARATE IS AN ESOTERIC ART DEVELOPED BY MR. DURANT. ANYBODY WHO SAYS DIFFERENT IS CAUGHT UP IN THE FOLKLORE OF WHICH MANY OF US ARE GUILTY. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS THAT THE STUDENTS I TEACH LIKE BRENT/TONYAARE ABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. SELFDEFENSE IS NOT SOMETHING MR. DURANT WAS LACKING IN AND NEITHER AM I. I CANNOT SPEAK FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE CLAIMING TO BE HIS STUDENTS, BUT MR. BOHAC, CAPELA AND CAVALIER ARE WELL KNOWN AS ^WALKING THE WALK^ IN THE STREET. ANYONE WHO SAYS THEY ARE NOT, IS A LIAR OR COWARD OR BOTH. I AM GOING TO BE WITH OTAKE RISUKE SENSEI WHILE I AM VISITING HERE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL HIM AND TELL HIM YOU THINK I AM A FRAUD, LIAR, COWARD OR ALL OF THE ABOVE. MOST OF YOU SUPPOSIVE ^MASTERS^ PROBABLY DON`T HAVE HIS PHONE NUMBER. I,M ALSO GOING TO SEE NAKAMURA TAISABURO SENSEI AND I JUST TESTED (FOR TWO DAYS) AND RECEIVED MY SANDAN IN SHIN SHIN SEKIGUICHI RYU IAI BATTOJUTSU FROM YAMADA SENSEI IN GIFU. I AM SURE THEY WILL BE IMPRESSED WITH YOU INSIGHTFUL COMMENTS ON MY AND MY STUDENTS MARTIAL ARTS ABILITIES. ESPECIALLY FROM THAT MASTER OF E-BUDO MASTERS ~KARATE KEN~. I WILL BE BACK IN DEL RIO, TEXAS ON JULY 28TH FOR ANY OF YOU WHO FEEL THE URGE TO TEST YOUR MANHOOD OR SANDAN IN SHODOKAN.



CARL MCCLAFFERTY

carl mcclafferty
10th August 2000, 10:15
SORRY FOLKS ABOUT MY LAST POSTING JETLAG/LACK OF RESPECT MAKES ME SAY THINGS I WOULD NOT NORMALLY. ITS JUST THAT THE PEOPLE MENTIONED ABOVE LOVE/RESPECT ME LIKE A SON MOST OF THE TIME AND I CAN NOT BELIEVE THE BS SOME OF YOU WRITE ABOUT MY OPEN HAND ART. THEY ALL ENCOURAGE ME THE IGNORE IT AND I PROMISE I WILL TRY HARDER.

CARLMƒbCƒ‰ƒbƒtƒFRTY

Vision Quest
10th August 2000, 17:25
[QUOTE]Originally posted by carl mcclafferty
"GOSHIN JUTSU KARATE IS AN ESOTERIC ART DEVELOPED BY MR. DURANT."

Esoteric? The Oxford Concise dictionary defines esoteric as "meant only for the initiated, not generally intelligible, also private, confidential". Gee, what did Muramoto's article on martial arts cults say again...oh yeah, "the group members are the only ones privy to superduper secret knowledge". Oh, and how esoteric can this mystical knowledge handed down by Samurai princes and ninjas be, since anyone with the cash to plank down can join a Goshin dojo and learn it?


"I AM GOING TO BE WITH OTAKE RISUKE SENSEI WHILE I AM VISITING HERE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL HIM AND TELL HIM YOU THINK I AM A FRAUD, LIAR, COWARD OR ALL OF THE ABOVE"

When did anyone here accuse you of this? This thread isn't even about you, it's about Mr. Durant and Mr. Porfilio's "Goshin Do" karate and the claims they've made about the style's history.


"MOST OF YOU SUPPOSIVE ^MASTERS^ PROBABLY DON`T HAVE HIS PHONE NUMBER. "

Well, first, I don't see anyone here claiming to be masters. What I do see is martial artists discussing and debating some rather dubious claims made by Durant and Porfilio. Again, this isn't about <I>you</I> at all. And finally, first you demand that "we" call Otake Sensei, then you say we don't have his number...umm, okay.


" I RECEIVED MY SANDAN ...I WILL BE BACK IN DEL RIO, TEXAS ON JULY 28TH FOR ANY OF YOU WHO FEEL THE URGE TO TEST YOUR MANHOOD OR SANDAN IN SHODOKAN"

Bragging about your new rank, beating your chest and daring people to come to your dojo and prove their "manhood" is not behavior I personally find impressive in a Sandan-ranked instructor. Thanks anyway.

Sincerely,

Sam

p.s. Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant receive his Shodan?

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-10-2000 at 12:21 PM]

Jeff Cook
10th August 2000, 17:51
Carl,

I was trying to deflect the apparent hostility (born of frustration on both sides) of this thread, and moderate the tone of it.

Apparently I failed.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

ghp
10th August 2000, 20:24
Carl,

Congratulations on your new sandan. I know you've been training in sword arts for many years and are ranked higher in other ryuha.

The jet lag really must be terrible ... in your last post you mistakenly wrote "esoteric" in describing Goshinjutsu Ryu; previously, you always said it was "neoteric" -- a new hybrid.

Say hello to Nakamura sensei for me and tell him I'm doing my best to teach on his behalf.

And let me know how the interview with Otake sensei goes. I'm anxious to hear his opinion on the "questions" you and I discussed.

Regards,
Guy

ghp
10th August 2000, 20:44
All,

I've been asked to comment on the current question regarding Mr. Durant's qualifications. While I do not feel qualified to comment on his techniques or the system's effecacy, I can "authenticate" one of his menjo.

I have been able to analyze some of his documents and compared his ca. 1969 Seishinkai 3rd dan certificate bearing Kuniba Shogo's signature against a 1980 document signed by Kuniba sensei for Mrs. Catherine Church (Albert C. Church's widow). Same calligraphic signature and style. The "san" [third] was masterfully brushed in the old-style kanji [not the 3 horizontal lines]. Clearly the calligrapher was someone who knew how to hold a brush! And undeniably, both signatures were by the same hand.

The menjo was issued through the Seishinkai's US representative, Mr. Baillageron -- (just like my yudansha receive their menjo from Nakamura sensei -- I promote up to 3rd dan, he trusts my judgement, the Federation awards the menjo).


Regards,
Guy

Margaret Lo
10th August 2000, 21:17
I suggest that we refocus our thoughts on this thread and end it. The issue originally presented for consideration was not a question about the "legitimacy" of Mr. Durant or Mr. McClafferty. Rather, the question concerned the legitimacy of one instructor with obviously questionable tastes and habits.

Focusing on the legitimacy of the originator and quality of other instructors in this style is not conclusive evidence for or against the quality of the instructor actually under question.

Further, we should remind ourselves that in many major "legitimate" karate organizations there are plenty of quacks!! I know of a few in the JKA. In fact, I am plenty eccentric too. :)

So if legitimate groups can spawn nutcases, it is also possible that groups with dubious lineage can also sprout good people and good teachers.

I think that the issue of whether this reincarnated samurai prince is a worthy teacher or a fraud has been resolved in favor of a general consensus that he is a fraud. So now we are pretty much done here.

I like to consider the real question I find interesting, which is: how can any group of dubious lineage and cut off from connection to Okinawa or Japan produce good martial arts? Will post new thread.

-M-

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 08-10-2000 at 03:39 PM]

Cocteau
10th August 2000, 21:37
Hi All!
This thread has inspired me to register here on e-budo.
I am certainly not an expert on Goshin Jutsu, but there is a Goshin Jutsu club at the local college. I have observed a demo and a class before, and it certainly did not look Japanese and Okinawan karate. I talked to one of tbe brown belts in the class, and after having told him that I was somewhat familiar with Okinawan and Japanese systems, he informed me that "Goshin is from Okinawa." I found this intersting and then asked him if there were still a lot of Goshin Jutsu practicioners in Okinawa today. He said he wasn't sure, and that the bulk of Goshin Jutsu practicioners were in Erie, PA since that is where the Founder Gerry Durant had lived and taught many people.
This made me curious about what was taught within the system, and after showing him Mark Bishops book: Okinawan Karate, Teachers and Styles, which lists every style of Okinawan Karate but no "Goshin Jutstu". I then showed him a list of all the karate katas and he recognized none of them. He also told me about a kata that he had just finished learning form one of his sensei, and when I asked him what kata it was, he said that his sensei hadn't told him the name of it yet. I found this rather odd. The students at the class and demo i observed all wore black gi's with a fist patch that looked like the Goju-kai fist that said "Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo - Defend With Honor". So far, none of the Goshin Jutsu students that I have talked to have been able to give me a straight story on the origings of their style, except that they all say "It was founded by Grandmaster Durant." Sorry I can't be of more help, just thought I should contribute what little I know.

Todd Pierce

Ken Allgeier
10th August 2000, 21:59
The subject of the Taikyoku katas has come up on this thread. I would like to quote from the book "Shotokan no Hyakkajiten (C) 1996"

quote: "Originally, the Taikyoku katas were used to learn the basic movements in Karate-do. However, recently these three katas have become somewhat obsolete. The three forms of the Taikyoku-kata and the ten forms of the Ten-no-kata were developed by Funakoshi Yoshitikata, the son of Funakoshi Gichin, but were named by his father, who never really introduced them to his students."


I would also like to quote from Masatoshi Nakayama.

and from Randall G. Hassell's book "Shotokan Karate: Its History and Evolution (c) 1991

qutoe: "Master Funakoshi never taught us those forms. They were created as basic training methods by Yoshitaka (Goko) Funakoshi and Genshin Hironishi, but they were never taught or practiced by Master Funakoshi. The principles of these forms do not conform to the principles of kata. They are not kata: they are basic training methods. But they were never taught by Master Funakoshi."

and from Richard Kim's book "The Weaponless Warriors"

quote: "Funakoshi was a humble man. He preached and practiced an essential humility. He did not preach the humility of virtue, but a basic humility of man who is rooted in the true perspective of things, full of life and awareness. He lived at peace with himself and with his fellow man.
Whenever the name of Gichin Funakoshi is mentioned, it brings to mind the parable of "A Man of Tao (Do) and a Little Man." As it is told, a student once asked, "What is the difference bwtween a man of Tao and alittle man?" The sensei replies, "It is simple. When a man little man recieves his first dan (degre or rank), he can hardly wait to run home and shout at teh top of his voice to tell everyone that he made his first dan. Upon recieveing his second dan, he will climb to the rooftops and shout to people. Upon receiving his third dan, he will jump in his automobile and parade through town with horns blowing, telling one and all aboiut his third dan."
The sensei continues, "When the man of Tao receives his first dan, he will bow his head and his shoulders. Upon receiving his second dan, he will bow his head and his shoulders. Upond receiving his thrid dan, he will bow to the waist and quickly walk alongside the wall so that people will not see ot notice him."

ken allgeier

Vision Quest
10th August 2000, 22:46
Originally posted by ghp
All, I have been able to analyze some of his documents and compared his ca. 1969 Seishinkai 3rd dan certificate

Thank you for the information, Guy. I was wondering if you (or any other interested party) could comment on a timeline question regarding Mr. Durant's history.

On one of this group's websites, there is some text entitled "A Brief History of Master Durant 1923-1991". It says "Gerard Durant is credited with bringing Goshin Jutsu to the United States after W.W.II. Master Durant received his dan ranking in the 1930s at the Osaka Kodakan."

So during the 1930's, Durant aged from 7 to 17 years old. In the mid-1930's he was approximately 12 years old. Here are a couple questions for discussion:

First, was it common for the Japanese to issue black belts to Americans during the 30's?

Second, if so, did they commonly give dan ranks to teenagers?

Third, if a precocious American teenager was in Japan studying and earning dan ranks at that time, would one expect there to be a record of the child doing so?

Also, Mr. Durant passed away in 1991, and reportedly claimed 10th dan for at least the last 10 years of his life. Meaning he went from 3rd to 10th in only 12 years. Is it common to rise in rank so quickly, and also what are the exact details of each of the ranks between 3rd and 10th?

Finally, if Durant was "credited with bringing Goshin Jutsu to the US", tha clearly implies that a style named Goshin Jutsu existed in Japan prior to Durant's arrival. Who was the founder of this style in Japan?

Thanks,

TimHillman
10th August 2000, 22:48
Hello every one, I notice tempers are flaring. Mr. Power has confirmed the fact that Mr. Durant was a Sandan in the Seishin-kai. I would be willing to send Mr. Power a letter I have, signed by Mr. Baillargeon, conserning Mr. Durant at 5th Dan. As I have said before, Mr. Capela, Mr. Cavalier and I think Mr. Bohac were all in the Seishin-Kai. Up until the early 1970's those are the kata that Master Durant taught. In fact Mr. Cavalier always taught the "Classic Katas" even after every one else taught the "Goshin Katas".

10th August 2000, 23:52
Guys,

I hate to wade into this over here but I've got to interject something.

The questions posed here by Sam are not about fighting ability despite an effort to interject that irrelevent subject into this debate. It is about honor and truthfullness. Mr Durrant was obviously not truthful in presenting the facts concerning the origins of Goshin Do Karate and his training background. ( I have checked and he NEVER received a dan rank in Kodakan Judo in Japan, especially at the ripe age of less than 16, which he claimed.)

If his teachings were satisfactory in all other aspects then his manipulation of the truth is really very sad. It taints any good he accomplished with bad for no reason.

Like it or not, a Sensei is by definition a role model, and unfortunately Mr Durrant was a very poor one in the area of truthfulness. Mike Tyson was an excellent boxer who had the world in his grasp and lost it all with the worlds respect because he did not have a grasp on himself. I suspect that Mr Durrant, despite any talent he had, was closer to a Mike Tyson than a Funakoshi Gichin. It is really very sad when you think about it.

carl mcclafferty
11th August 2000, 01:24
Folks:
Please see my reply/apology for temper to on ~Members Lounge~. It might clear my position up. My students ~will not~ get back into this, if you`re reading this.

Carl

Toby:

I guess when he was dying of cancer he did a tape trying to impress an audience. There was no need, please do not condemn him for his weakness in his death. The other idiots are fair game for Ken or whoever.

carl mcclafferty
11th August 2000, 01:27
Folks:
Mr. Power is right, I meant neoteric, please forgive my brain freeze. I was wondering what the other gentleman was talking about. SORRY!!!!

Carl

Vision Quest
11th August 2000, 01:46
Originally posted by TimHillman
Hello every one, I notice tempers are flaring.
I agree that tempers are flaring, and also recognize that, by asking these questions that apparently no one has ever dared ask before, I am the one causing the discord. There are also probably more diplomatic ways to ask such questions, but I guess I'm just not much of a politician. What I see is a friend who has been badly hurt and taken advantage of by what I now consider a cult leader who represents (or misrepresents) the style founded by Mr. Durant. I don't want to see anyone else victimized.

Despite the flaring tempers, there is still a useful and informative discussion going on. There are some important questions about the history and lineage of the Goshin Jutsu style in the US that have still not been answered. My friend and I plan to continue investigating until we uncover logical, satisfactory answers. I'm sorry to see that Mr. McClafferty and some of his students seem to be taking this discussion so personally, especially since the subjects at hand are the claims made by Mr. Durant and Mr. Porfilio. They are not directed at Mr. McClafferty, since I understand he is currently training under legitmate instructors both in the US and Japan, and is well-respected in the budo community for that. The effectiveness of the style is not the issue here, it is the history, lineage and veracity of the claims made by Mr. Durant and many of his students that is being questioned. And it is this that we will continue to pursue until we uncover the truth.

Sincerely,

Vision Quest
11th August 2000, 02:04
Originally posted by carl mcclafferty
Folks:
Mr. Power is right, I meant neoteric, please forgive my brain freeze. I was wondering what the other gentleman was talking about. SORRY!!!!Carl

Dear Carl,

Understood, anyone can make a typo, especially if they're tired or jet-lagged. The two terms are easily confused with each other.

Please let me take this opportunity to say that my only purpose here is to investigate the claims made by Mr. Durant and some of his students. Your students brought your name into this discussion, and it quickly got personal, as they percieved the questions about Durant were somehow an attack on your legitimacy. This was not my intention, and I apologize for not recognizing this and being drawn into an unpleasant, off-topic flame war. And I apologize personally to you for my ungentlemanly tone in some recent posts. But please also understand that I have a friend who has been hurt and manipulated by a practictioner of Goshin who has used Durant's claims to form what I feel is a cult. I don't want to see anyone else get taken.

I will continue to seek the truth, but I will also try to be more diplomatic and gracious in my pursuits.

Sincerely,

TimHillman
11th August 2000, 03:18
Mr. Threadgill,
I agree with what you say about a Sensei being a roll model.
I don't recall Mr. Durant ever claiming to be ranked in Judo, where did you see this? Much of what I remember about the man was in the early 1970's when he was in good health. Back then he was a true warrior and was not afraid to "step into the alley" with any one. I guess that is what drew people to him. My teacher, Mr. Cavalier was one of Mr. Durant's senior students. In 1975-76 Mr. Cavalier left to form his own organization, the Tatsu Do Yudanshakai. Mr. Durant continued to rank him up until his death. In the last 25 years we have worked very hard to make Tatsu Do a good martial arts organization. We have always been honest about the roots of our organization and the origins of our kata. We have taken great care to teach the lineage of of our "classiacal kata" as well as the kata which Mr. Cavalier developed himself. It has been a totally enjoyable experience to see a small group of students grow and develop, maturing into a fairly large organization. We have taken great care to keep our standards high.

Michael Bland
11th August 2000, 03:31
Vision Quest,

Robert is correct in that the word for "headquarters" could be romanized either "honbu" or "hombu".

This topic was brought up in June about the difference between "Kenpo" and "Kempo". Though, I don't feel that it was accurately explained in that discussion.

The short answer is "It doesn't matter how you write it in romanized letters."

The long answer is that the sound we are trying to represent cannot be accurately written in romanization. It is in fact often written as "m/n". It is close to the English "ng", but not quite that strong of a "g" sound.


English "m" is a bilabial nasal. (both lips together, air comes our your nose).

English "n" is an alveolar nasal. (mouth open, tip of tongue touches the hard alveolar palate. air comes out your nose)

Japanese "m/n" is a glottal nasal. (mouth open, back of tongue presses up against the soft palate and glottis at the back of your throat).

So, it is not accurately represented either by "m" or "n".
In the end, just remember that the real word is not written in English, but in Japanese. So, it doesn't really matter how you write the word in English, because it will never accurately represent the Japanese sounds.

On the other hand, if you want to conform with Microsoft's IME for Japanese character entry, you have to use "n". So, Bill Gates thinks that "n" is correct. Maybe that's the answer. ;)

-Michael Bland
Heiwa-Ryu Yudansha
http://www.heiwa-ryu.org

Joseph Svinth
11th August 2000, 03:31
QUOTE:

So during the 1930's, Durant aged from 7 to 17 years old. In the mid-1930's he was approximately 12 years old. Here are a couple questions for discussion:

First, was it common for the Japanese to issue black belts to Americans during the 30's?

Second, if so, did they commonly give dan ranks to teenagers?


END QUOTE

During the 1930s, it was quite common in the United States for Nisei and Sansei to begin training in judo at about the age of 8 and to receive their shodan ranking by the time they were 16. There were sometimes non-Nikkei youths in these classes. An example would be Robert West of Stockton, California, who began judo at the local Buddhist church in 1935, earned his shodan in 1939, and was perhaps the first hakujin to train at the Kodokan following WWII. (He started training at the Kodokan on October 1, 1945, so he beat Walter Todd there by a month or two. His rank was PFC, so I'd guess he wasn't real old in 1945.)

The average age of a Nisei shodan of the late 1930s was between 16-20 years of age; one got the rank by winning shiai. Thus one fellow I know got his rank in just three months, the reason being he threw three brown belts and two black belts in his first tournament and the Yudanshakai couldn't see a good reason to hold him back. And their opinion was justified; after just 2-1/2 years in training, he was throwing Japanese-trained 3-dans in open competition.

So, to answer your question, it would have been unusual for Mr. Durant to train in judo before WWII, but not impossible. If he did, a grade of shodan by time he was 16 or 17 is not unlikely.

TimHillman
11th August 2000, 04:12
Mr. Sharpe, Don't ever feel bad about asking questions. Many of the people on this forum are great people and it has been a pleasure to talk to and listen to them, even if it has been a touchy subject for some.

Ken Allgeier
11th August 2000, 15:51
On the subject of the Seishinkai Karate Union ,Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu and Durant's supposed sandan menjo,the math does not workout, 2+2=5 ?.Richard Baillargeon returned to the United States in 1964 from Japan and lived in Georgia(Sells;Unante,pg 142)and Durant lived in Erie ,Pa from the time of his first childs birth in and around 1955-56,to the time he moved to Texas in the mid 1980's.So the big question is ,how could Durant recive a legitimate sandan in Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu from the Seishinkai in only three years? According to the stipulations of the Federation of All Japan Karate-Do Organization which the Seishinkai Karate Union,Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu,is a member of,there is a minium time in training of 3 years to recive a SHODAN;1964+3=1967.Also the Federation of All Japan Karate-Do Organization also stipulates a minimum of 6 years to go from SHODAN to GODAN ,1967+6=1973,the math does not work out,and numbers do not lie,so where is the logic in all this.Again how could Durant get from Erie,Pa to Georgia,and do not try to claim that he took a plane,I have seen his house at 320 Newman St,Erie,Pa it is in a very low income nieghborhood.Can anyone explain this quandary?




ken allgeier

[Edited by Ken Allgeier on 08-11-2000 at 09:54 AM]

Jesse
11th August 2000, 20:03
Karl,what is your history with goshin Jutsu and Durant. Where you a student of his,did you study goshin jutsu, do u teach it now.Im just curious and am not being sarcastic at all.


Jesse williams

Jesse
12th August 2000, 07:51
Ken has made a serious points about Durants legitimate sandan. Many researchers in erie found that this sandan certificate to not be legit. That is why I would like more specif info on how this certificate was validated. Once again I will state that many certifictes fromm legit organization were handed out through fraud,mostly by unscrupulous individuals that would hand out rank for money. Many martial artist bought into this as a way to legitmize them selves.Sadly in Erie Pa there is an almost competitive attitude among many martial artists who have engaged in "rank wars". I know of many who took advantage of Durant himself in his dying days of kissing up to him just to obtain rank. Most were never direct students of his,and im my opinion took advantage of him. Durant did claim a tenth dan for the last 10 years of his life. I think this was some of the reasons that infighting in the organization broke out. Long before his death when Durant was still in stabe health Robert Bohac was supposidly the highest rank and the succesor of the system when Durant would pass away. This view was widly heald by most of Durants personal students. However after his passing all hell seem to break out as to who the succesor would be.


jesse williams

Vision Quest
12th August 2000, 16:55
Originally posted by Jesse
Long before his death when Durant was still in stabe health Robert Bohac was supposidly the highest rank and the succesor of the system when Durant would pass away. This view was widly heald by most of Durants personal students. However after his passing all hell seem to break out as to who the succesor would be.

I was always curious why Matthew Durant wasn't automatically named the heir to the Goshin Jutsu thing in Erie. Then I was told that Matthew was "in and out of jail" and basically had zero interest in karate. Then suddenly, after his father's death, he arrived on the scene claiming a high dan rank from out of thin air, and announced himself "Dai Soke" of GJKJ. Is there any truth to this, or is this just more mythology from the Goshinists?

Here is yet another goshin website, that make the grandmaster claim. Note the announcement where Matthew Durant jumps from 6th dan to 10th dan!: http://www.goshin-jutsu.com/

<CENTER>GRAND MASTER SOSHO DURANT
Looking over his son
DAISOKE MASTER MATTHEW DURANT
6th Degree Black Belt
- - - - - B U T - N O W - - - - -
- - - - - - - - I S - A - - - - - - - -
10th Degree Black Belt
as of May 2000.</CENTER>

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-12-2000 at 11:49 AM]

Jesse
12th August 2000, 17:41
Calling Mathew Durant names is way out of line. I dont see how using names that disrespect anyone on this forum can achieve any research goals into the system of goshin jutsu.
Jesse Williams

Ken Allgeier
12th August 2000, 18:22
Sam

Jesse is right,lets keep everthing in a academic mode of thought,here on E-Budo.Lets rise above the commonplace malicious and pursue this situstion as scholars in the noble art of Budo.


ken allgeier

Jesse
13th August 2000, 05:09
A tenth dan is a rather high rank for an american isnt it?
Jesse Williams

MarkF
13th August 2000, 07:22
It is a rather high rank for anyone.

Vision Quest
13th August 2000, 16:02
Originally posted by Jesse
A tenth dan is a rather high rank for an american isnt it?
Apparently not in the Goshin system! I have actually lost count of the number of "Grandmasters" who claim to be the one and only "diasoke" of the Durant's style. A quick web search reveals at least SIX individuals who claim extremely high rank (and most also declare themselves the "head" of the Goshin system):

Joe Brague, claiming 10th dan http://www.goshinjutsu.org/pages/history.htm

Matthew Durant, claiming 10th dan http://www.goshin-jutsu.com/

William Cavalier, claiming 10th dan http://www.geneseo.edu/~karate/t_history.htm

Robert Bohach, claiming 10th dan http://www.iksa.com/profiles/heckman.html

Steven Capela, claiming 9th dan http://goshinjutsu.freeyellow.com/index.html

Jim Locke, currently claiming 8th dan http://www.royal-martial-arts.com/school.html

[Edited by Vision Quest on 08-13-2000 at 10:16 AM]

TimHillman
13th August 2000, 21:15
Mr. Sharpe,
I would like to claify that Mr. Cavalier does not claim to be 10th Dan in Goshin Jutsu. The Geneseo web page was apparently put up by a student at Geneseo college who is no longer there, and who did not have his information straight.

Jesse
14th August 2000, 17:40
What rank does Mr Cavalier claim in goshin jutsu and what rank in any other arts?

Jesse Williams

TimHillman
15th August 2000, 23:04
Mr. Cavalier was ranked to 8th Dan by Mr. Durant. Some years later, Advisors of the Goshin Jutsu International Association recognized him as 10th Dan of his own organization, the Tatsu Do Yudanshakai. Unfortunately the way this was handled caused some confusion and many people thought that he was being ranked in Goshin, when it was supposed to be a recognition of the Tatsu Do rank. He also held rank in Pai Lum Kung Fu under Daniel K. Pai, achieved ranking in the Okinawan Karate Federation and Yoshin Ryu Ju Jutsu.

Jesse
16th August 2000, 03:15
So what your saying is that a group of individuals from one style gave Mr Cavalier a 10th dan in another? Im confused,that just sounds ......strange.
Are there any members of the Goshin Jutsu board on E Budo that can help clarify Durants history and thier promotion policy?

Jesse Williams

[Edited by Jesse on 08-15-2000 at 09:19 PM]

TimHillman
16th August 2000, 03:20
Jesse,
You're not the only one.

john-p
20th August 2000, 15:08
This is a very interesting predicament your friend is in. This is my advice, find another school now. Do not waste your time.
I have been training for ten years and the highest belt I have attained is brown. ha ha. Laugh all you want. I would put my theoretical and practical knowledge up against any first dan any day.
I say leave now because of the Goshin Do school I attended in South Carolina for one year. This is the school that started my Martial Arts training. I do not know if this school in NC has anything to do with the one in SC, but I seriously doubt it. My instructor said his style was founded by a man named Soke Shogo Kuniba. This man traced his lineage back to the ancient samurai and princes of fuedal Japan. I am perplexed because some of this sounds familiar, and am distressed because the school that I attended was phenomenal. I have not found another school so dedicated to the search of pure knowledge and instructors with such eagerness to teach. I have had a very hard time finding another school to match this one. As a matter of fact, I just received my brown belt at my present school and informed my instructor that I would be leaving soon. I wasted fourteen months at this school and now I am kicking myself in the butt. I could have been learning serious self-defense in this time but instead I wasted it doing "self-defense kickboxing." I am sure that there are people out there who understand what I am referring to.
Moral of this story: We are very intelligent human beings. If one is unhappy with ones training, do not allow yourself to be deceived any longer. Do not settle for second best. We work every day to make money to pay for our training. Why should the 40-90 hours a week we put in be wasted on has-beens who don't know the difference between "small circle" and a zenkutsu-dachi?

Vision Quest
20th August 2000, 17:49
[QUOTE]Originally posted by john-p
I have been training for ten years and the highest belt I have attained is brown. ha ha. Laugh all you want. </B>

John, far from "laughing", the fact that your school doesn't give out black belts after less than 2 years' training (like the Greensboro, NC Goshin Do school does) is laudable! Obviously, your dojo isn't a "belt-factory" like the NC one.

<B>My instructor said his style was founded by a man named Soke Shogo Kuniba. This man traced his lineage back to the ancient samurai and princes of fuedal Japan. I am perplexed because some of this sounds familiar, </B>

Oh no, not the ancient Samurai princes again! Did you read Ken Algieir's well-researched report on the Kunibas and Samurai claims made by Goshin Do?

Who is the instructor at your SC Goshin Do school? Did he train directly under Kuniba, and if so, where, when and what rank was he promoted to under Kuniba? Does your teacher/dojo have any ties or history related to Gerard Durant and the "Goshin Jutsu" style he invented back in Erie, PA in the 1960's?

john-p
20th August 2000, 20:06
Yes, my instructor, Shihan Earle Marvin, studied under Soke and traveled to Japan on several occasions. I do not know when he achieved all of his dans, which included 5th in the Seishin Kai (sp?) organization, and a 6th from Ed Parker which he did not wear b/c he felt he was not worthy. (A belt factory my school was not.) Shihan attained the rank of 7th dan at 47 years of age before he died five years ago. His eldest son, Will, is now the head instructor at the school in Walterboro. Will is 27 and is a fourth degree black belt. Will, obviously, trained under his father who was the best instructor I have ever met. My biggest challenge, however, is that I trained in SC about 9 years ago and none of these names sound familiar. There is a student there who has a website dedicated to her school. If you would like it, email me at mitemojo@mindspring.com Considering the number of posts made on this subject I feel I should not put it up in fear of some unthinkable repurcussions. I know some people are capable of it. Feel free to email.

Vision Quest
20th August 2000, 20:23
[QUOTE]Originally posted by john-p
Yes, my instructor, Shihan Earle Marvin, studied under Soke</B>

Wait, Soke <I>who</I>? Soke is a title, not a name. Most people here study legitimate, recognized, traditional styles and few have ever even heard of the Goshin stylists.

Also, in traditional karate, terms like Soke, Sensei and Shihan need to have the person's last name follow the title in order for others to know to whom you're referring. For instance, in our dojo, a black belt named Bob Smith would be referred to as Smith Sensei. I noticed that the Goshinists don't seem to understand this, and incorrectly refer to their instructors as "Hanshi Cavalier" and "Sensei Porfilio" and such. Just another sign that the style is not founded upon traditional karate, since its customs and terminology are incorrect.

<B>Shihan attained the rank of ...</B>

Again, sorry, you need to state which Shihan.

<B>Considering the number of posts made on this subject I feel I should not put it up in fear of some unthinkable repurcussions.

What repercussions? Are students in your dojo not allowed to discuss the style outside the school or something?

john-p
20th August 2000, 20:39
Sorry, i responded to another post and I listed the names there. Soke Shogo Kuniba and Shihan Earle Marvin. The other post was "the ten reasons..."
I say repurcussions because I'm sure that many people have already made up their mind as to whether this is a legitimate style or not. I don't want to give it out because she is only 14 or 15 and I don't want her getting a lot of negative feedback that is unwarranted.

Vision Quest
21st August 2000, 17:11
[QUOTE]Originally posted by john-p
Sorry, i responded to another post and I listed the names there. Soke Shogo Kuniba and Shihan Earle Marvin. The other post was "the ten reasons..."</B>

Okay, thanks for clarifying that.

So, did Mr. Marvin train under Mr. Durant, or from one of Mr. Durant's students? Or did he train directly under Kuniba?

<B>I say repurcussions because I'm sure that many people have already made up their mind as to whether this is a legitimate style or not. I don't want to give it out because she is only 14 or 15 and I don't want her getting a lot of negative feedback that is unwarranted.

Well, that's kind of like me saying I don't want to discuss my belief in the Easter Bunny, since "I'm sure that many people have already made up their mind as to whether the Easter Bunny is legitimate or not". The mythology surrounding the history and lineage of the "Goshin Jutsu" karate style founded by Mr. Durant has been thoroughly de-bunked. The style was simply made-up by Mr. Durant and has NO ties to legitimate, classical Japanese budo, period.

Regarding the young teen, yes I think I know who you're talking about, I've seen her website and links to it all over the net. She seems like a nice kid. I did want to ask, though...I've never heard of a traditional karate style that gives black belts to teenagers, she's only 14 years old! This is another oddity about Goshin, as compared to traditional styles. The Goshin Do school in NC even gives black belts to kids under 10!

I'm very curious if this SC school has ties to Durant or just coincidentally has the same style name, but no connections to Durant's Goshin.

Jesse
22nd August 2000, 01:06
Well I sent a mess of emails to the many goshin jutsu karate web sites. Maybe we will finally get some response from other practioners about Kens research on the system.
Hopefully if we can keep this educational and stay away from name calling we can have some civil discussion on the system and from where and and from whom the late Jerry Durant studied.

Jesse

Vision Quest
22nd August 2000, 05:39
Originally posted by Jesse
Well I sent a mess of emails to the many goshin jutsu karate web sites. Maybe we will finally get some response from other practioners about Kens research on the system.
Jesse, don't hold your breath! I too emailed many of them, asking about the history of their style, but not ONE has ever answered. In fact, several have taken their websites down since this discussion started. Mr. Porfilio reportedly forbids his students from using the Internet (how's that for cult behavior?) and the rest just plug their ears and say "na na na NA na, I can't hear you".

That's fine. After all, the main purpose of debunking isn't to reach current victims of frauds and cults, it's to warn potential future students from getting involved in the first place.

Ken Allgeier
24th August 2000, 06:39
To John-P


Shogo Kuniba moved to Portmouth Virgina in 1983.Kuniba Sensei was a vary well respected Budoka,who created his own fighting system called "Goshin-Budo",which combined Shito Ryu Karate with Aikido,Judo and Jujutsu, into sets of two person kata.The Seishinkai people told me that,several indivduals who had gone to seminars taught by Kuniba Sensei and had their picture taken with Kuniba Sensei,would then claim to be senior students or worst claim to given 5th Dan ranking.In fact they were just a person who went to a seminar and was never a student of Kuniba Sensei,but are now making money from these false claims.



ken allgeier

IchiRiKen1
24th August 2000, 13:11
Just a clarification...

Everyone seems rather intent on the whole "when did he get his shodan" thing, and then others say that Mr. Power has already stated that this Durant guy WAS a sandan in somethingorother style... In fact, all Mr. Power did was say that the document he has reviewed states that Durant had been issued a sandan by somebody, and that the handwriting of that document matched another document, indicating that it was likely to have been penned by the same person.

Nothing here indicates that in fact Durant was a sandan anywhere. Not that I am saying he wasn't, just my legal mind trying to clarify things. Durant is ALLEGED to be a sandan (or higher) by certain documents and persons. I will finish my 10th dan documents tonight, get them signed by an anonymous Nihonjin (sloppily, so as to discourage translation or comprehension for that matter), have other documents signed by the same anonymous Nihonjin, and get my kids to tell their friends at school that I am a 10th dan in somethingorother-do. None of this MAKES me a 10th dan, in fact.

Just my humble interjection. Let the battle resume...

JAMJTX
6th December 2002, 01:41
Durant probably learned some "Goshin Budo" from being around the Seishin Kai Karate Union. Goshin Budo was one of Soke Shogo Kuniba's arts. He combined Karate, Judo, Jujitsu and Aikido.
There is no real evidence of Durant earning legit ranking. He may have co-opted the name when he left Seishin Kai.
You can read some about Soke Kuniba and Goshin Budo at
www.americangoshinkobudo.com
Later on, when Soke Kuniba moved to the U.S. and learned there was real profit potential in teaching martial arts in America, he re-worked his Goshin Budo and renamed it Goshin Do.
Goshin Do is garden variety Karate and basic self defense and ranks are rather easily gained. You will find that those teaching Goshin Do charge a lot of money and operate slick commercial schools.
Don't be conned too easily by those claiming rank from Kuniba.
If the rank is before 1981 it can probably be accepted without too much worry. After 1981 - they most likely bought it and did not get much teaching. This is sad but true.

Jim Mc Coy

JAMJTX
6th December 2002, 01:54
... My instructor said his style was founded by a man named Soke Shogo Kuniba. This man traced his lineage back to the ancient samurai and princes of fuedal Japan..

This is not correct,and has only been told (as far as I know) after Soke Kuniba passed away. I met him in 1980 and never heeard this from anyone. The Kuniba's are Okinawan not Japanese.

Goshin Do is Soke's "later art". A subset or derivitive of his earlier Goshin Budo.

Soke Kuniba was a great martial artist but lost his vision. Goshin Do pales as a martial art when compared to his original Goshin Budo.

Durant, as you have learned was not on the level. But really neither are those who teach Kuniba's "Goshin Do". He went real easy on those later students and taught a lesser art than to his earlier students.

Jim Mc Coy

JAMJTX
9th December 2002, 18:36
Since I am sick and tired of e-budo (the owner and moderators) not this topic, I will not be posting to e-budo anymore.
If anyone wishes to communicate with me re: this thread please e-mail me.

Jim Mc Coy

ronin47344
30th January 2003, 12:39
Sam,
I'm new to this site but I may be the best one to answer your questions. My name is Blandy Privette and I was the one of the first people Ralph promoted to Shodan in greensboro(Stacey Boyette-Goju Ryu ,Jay Wenburg-don't remember his original style and me-no previous martial style). I trained with Ralph in the 90's and was eventually promoted to Nidan. In late '96 a man by the name of George Frederick contacted Ralph about having someone from our style teach at the Adams Farm Swim and Tennis Club.Ralph approached me and told me that he wanted me to teach there. In early '97 he approached me again and informed me that another Dan, Neil, from our dojo had "stolen" the position without Ralphs permision. He seemed very upset. 1 mo later he informed me that my fellow Dan could not fufill his obligations there and that I would start teaching immediately. In 1999 I suffered a massive heart attack and stopped attending Ralphs classes so that I could focus my energy on my own students( I notified Ralph of my decision and was given his blessing). 8 mo later my brother suffered a heart attack which took his life. 2 mo later the owner of the club where i teach approached me and said that Ralph had contacted him and told him that I was no longer a part of the Goshin-Do Karate Federation and that he wanted to replace me with one of his other Dans(the owner declined). During the owners and my conversation it was revealed to me that Ralph had introduced Neil to the owner originally and later had lied to me about it being "stolen".
As for your questions I'll put this out there and you and your friend can make up your own minds
Is it a traditional system?
let me preface all my replies with this-I have not trained with Ralph in over 2yrs and alot can change in that time.
Depends on what you mean by "traditional". In terms of longevity(ie 1000yrs old)then no. If my research is correct, the system has been around for less than 100yrs. In terms of formality,discipline,respect and hard work, then yes thats how it was when I trained.
What about the wild claims?
that really concerns me and I'll tell you why. At the last awards banquet that I attended Ralph had placed a small flyer at each seat(I'm looking at my copy as I type this). This flyer states (and I quote directly from it) that"Goshin Jutsu traces it's origin to a meeting of Buddhist monks in Canton China around the year 525AD". I'll skip the part about who Daruma was and about him meditating for nine years and crushing rocks with his hand. Then the flyer says "He then taught them his new fighting system, the Go-shin-Jutsu-Karate, the self defense art of the empty hand". I was stunned and so was everyone else. Fellow students came to me and quietly asked me what the heck was going on. I had no answer and as a senior belt I put my game face on and told them that I was sure Ralph would explain later. That explaination never came and I didn't feel like it was my place to question him. You'll have to make up your own mind on those claims.
What about stiff stances and not pivoting from the hip?
I still teach Goshin Jutsu so this one is easy. I normally try not to overwhelm my begining students with corrections. If you give a student 10 corrections on stances, 10 on blocks. 10 on kicks, 10 on strikes etc etc then I've found they usually don't remember any of them. Better to give 5 or 6 corrections per class and really focus on them. Body dynamics are taught in goshin, just not focused on till the intermediate levels.
Are the Katas legit?
This one kind of baffles me. I wasn't under the impression that everybody knew everybody elses kata or that it had to printed in a book to be "legit". If everyone does the same "legit" katas the same way as everyone else and kata is the essence of karate then why have different styles?
well that's about enough for me, sorry to have been so long winded and I hope this helped. If you have any questions please e-mail me and I'll do what I can.
sincerely Blandy

Sochin
30th January 2003, 18:16
Good morning Blandy,

full name please...

as per the rules.

JAMJTX
18th February 2003, 04:43
I have been doing some research into Shogo Kuniba and his Goshin Budo/Goshin Do and have to retract a few comments.
When I first saw the later "Goshin Do" art, I was not impressed. In fact I was sad to see that this came from the great Shogo Kuniba.
But it seems I should have found a better representative to show me this art.
If you learn Shogo Kuniba's Goshin Do, you need to be very careful of who you learn it from. Your best bet is to stay with the Kuniba Kai.
There is an excellent group, the AGK, that teaches his earlier Goshin Budo.
I recently received an old Seishin Kai instruuctors manual showing the rank requirements up to Shodan. This version of Goshin Do seems to be very well thought out and the standards were quite high.

Be reminded, however, that the Durant variations are not connected to any the Seishin Kai or the Kuniba family in any way.


Jim Mc Coy