Chizikunbo.

[TomMarker]

hello.

I have been recently introduced to techniques using this unique stick and was wondering if anyone had any resources (book, video, etc.)

I have seen techniques in Hatsumi's stick fighting book, and have heard of Lucaylucay's video, but this is all I'm aware of.

Thanks...

[John Bowden]

Originally posted by TomMarker
hello.

I have been recently introduced to techniques using this unique stick and was wondering if anyone had any resources (book, video, etc.)

I have seen techniques in Hatsumi's stick fighting book, and have heard of Lucaylucay's video, but this is all I'm aware of.

Thanks...

I think that if you look at just about any Okinawan karate, you
add the Chizikunbo or three point fist as a natural extension.

I would personally be suprised and amazed if someone tried to teach
these things as separate skill.

That being said, the "Kubotan" which is a modern derivation of the
Chizikunbo and Three point fist has a number of books and videos about
it's practical self defense application. I think learning a striking
style that still contains the circular mechanics is most effective way
to train with something like that....weapon not actually necessary in
training.

Another, old american technique, is to put a roll of pennies in your
fist....esspecially inside your boxing gloves. :)

John

If you are talking about a small cigar sized stick that has a band that goes around your finger then I know what you are referring to.
We are taught that weapon as part of our kobudo system.

[TomMarker]

Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
If you are talking about a small cigar sized stick that has a band that goes around your finger then I know what you are referring to.
We are taught that weapon as part of our kobudo system.


YES!!!
Obviously, it is a pretty intuitive weapon, but I'm really interested in some of the higher-level locks and nerve strikes. If you've ever seen Bram Frank's Spyderco Gunting, I'm refering to the things along those lines.

Knifemaker Mickey Yurco made me a really sweet one out of micarta that I carry on a regular basis. I think the loop really gives a lot more application possibilities than the yawara/kubaton.

For those unfamiliar, it essentially looks like this:
http://www.bladerigger.com/koppo.html

[John Bowden]

I looked at that link, you should be aware that most jurisdictions
will view that weapon as equivalent to brass knuckles. The only
mitigating factor to the Kubotan is that you attach keys to it.
Without the keys, it's going to be viewed as a concealed deadly weapon.

As far as strikes and locks for it, again I'd refer directly back
to Okinawan Karate. :)

If I was going to risk a felony to carry a bludgeon in my pocket, I'd
carry a weapon grade expando baton.

John

[TomMarker]

it was the best pic I could find offhand. I personally wouldn't pay that much for a stick.

[pcxjjab]

You can find a kubotan videao at:
http://www.kubotan.freeservers.com/index.html

I understand that this is the first of many that renshi Martin is producing, ranging from basic to advanced;)

John Barry

[Hank Irwin]

Damn good buki, these are old, but for the modern bushi a necessary "tool". They are easy to conceal, and easy to impliment. I teach a kata I derived from Pinan 1-3. BowdenSan said it correctly also in that you can use them(chishikunbo,jiffa/jiwa)very efficiently in some if not most kata. I have seen KuSanKu no Kata done with jiffa from a few different sources, chishikunBo also. Kyoshi Gordon Garland has an old chishikunBo from Phillipines that is quite interesting, supposedly where they originate from also. They don't have the typical string over the middle finger only. Is a sheath of burlap/straw that extends over the whole hand that is also imbedded with sharks teeth.Point on one end, round on the other side. Nasty looking bugger. They are an advanced level weapon never the less. Metal ones are nice but I prefer wood myself, quickness is still a factor. I haven't had the time lately to update my site, but one of the slide shows I'm putting on it will have the chishikunBo kata I teach on it, very basic stuff. I hope to get to it, and many other things I backed up on at present. Sorry I haven't talked to you guys lately. :D

here are a few I have made

[Mark Brecht]

:up:

[TomMarker]

Hank,
Those look pretty nice indeed. Have you ever thought of adding countersinking holes for the knotted ends of rope to reside in?

I would imagine kata wouldn't be too difficult to devise for such a fairly intuitive weapon. The loop makes them better than a regular Yawara, IMHO since it gives that extra level of retention.

Of course, substituting them with pens, flashlights, etc for modern applications is something students should be taught as well.

[Hank Irwin]

Thank you Tom, I take a lot of pride in my work, you really can't see detail in those shots though. Being a Carpenter for trade, I like to express myself whilst still retaining combat requirements. Recessing the holes for the string would leave out a good tool of the weapon. I use parachute chord for all my strung weapons. On ChishiKunBo the knots are burned, they get real hard as a result. These two knots are good for striking blood gates & pressure points. That's why you don't "hide" them. Also, when using the hand to press, if you have a ChishiKunBo in your hand, the knots aid at points. Think about it. The one's from "Treasures" are very nice indeed, but eventually the pretty ends will fall off as will the metal loop. I also put brass & stainless steel points on some of the ChishiKunBos I make. I also "facet"(like a diamond) some of the back rounded side of ChishiKunBo so when you use the round edge for pressure points it actually will cut as you grind. Ooooh!!! Hahaha!! :D Whoo! Been a long day!!

[TomMarker]

Hank,

It's always amazing how such a theoretically simple design can have very complex applications. Not too long ago, I had access to my Uncle's lathe, and was able to try my hand at making a few of my own. Talk about a humbling process. I did manage to make a few fairly functional, albeit ugly, sticks out of purpleheart. I will refrain from drilling wider holes in those models and experiment.

The ones made by Mr. Yurco have the knots recessed in the wood. However, he does plane one of the edges flat, creating a shape that looks much like a capital D, making for a pretty painful ramp. He has made a few for me in Oak, Mahogony, and Micarta. I believe he holds a high dan ranking in Shorin-Ryu.

This is quickly becoming one of my favorites.

[CEB]

Originally posted by TomMarker
Hank,

....I did manage to make a few fairly functional, albeit ugly, sticks out of purpleheart. I will refrain from drilling wider holes in those models and experiment.
...


Purpleheart is pretty and it may work for this particular weapon. I wouldn't reccomend it for weapons that a lot of impact or produce large amounts of torque. I've seen purpleheart kama handle snap from blocking 'light' bo strikes. I've heard of a purpleheart bo breaking when hitting nothing but air. But they are nice looking, I have 2 of them I bought from KEMCO. I rarely use them for kata, and then only for kata. They are nice looking wall hangers.

Hank can confirm if I am correct or not about the nature of purpleheart. He know a lot more about wood than I do.

[CEB]

http://www.superiormartialarts.com/images2/20128.jpg

12.25 inches long with spikes on both ends.

[Hank Irwin]

So right BoydSan, for smaller weaponry p.heart is ok, and will perform very well. I would not use it for any kind of Kun or flail. I've snapt a P.heart Bo in half just doing a whip strike, will scare the bajeezas out of you. The stuff will snap under duress. I make a lot of picture frames out of p.heart. Makes real nice tounge & groove flooring too. What a pair of Tecchu! Where did those come from BoydSan?

[sean_stonehart]

Irwin Sensei... those nasty little devices posted above are called E-mei (O-mei, Er-mei, Ng-mei... depending on dialect) piercers. They're a Chinese weapon used kinda like a dagger with a twist. Literally.

[CEB]

Mr. Stonehart
The weapons are reffered to as Tecchu by Ryukyu Kobudo practiconers. I was told once they were introduced to Okinawa by Chatan Yara. You are correct concerning the Chinese nomenclature.


Mr. Irwin
These particular weapons can be acquired from Superior Martial Arts. I have never posted a link before I have posted one below to the Superior.

E mei (http://www.superiormartialarts.com/cgi-bin/uniform/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=emeipiercer.html&ORDER_ID=225795089&affiliate=!affiliate!)


Everybody,
I just read my previous post. I apoligize for all the typos, yes english is my primary language but you wouldn't have guessed that from my post.

[sean_stonehart]

Mr Boyd... didn't realize Okinawan system had adopted/used them. Learn something new everyday.

Thanks!

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Ed Boyd ... The weapons are reffered to as Tecchu by Ryukyu Kobudo practiconers. I was told once they were introduced to Okinawa by Chatan Yara. Folks,

In his article "Re-Examining Ryukyu Kobudo: An Interview with Minowa Katsuhiko" (Journal of Asian Martial Arts: Volume 8, Number 1, 1999, Pp 75-91), Mario McKenna includes a brief, but very solid introduction to this weapon, including a few waza.

Regards,

[TomMarker]

Conveniently, Ohio State keeps all the JAMA in their Education Library, so I was able to dig this up. It was indeed very brief. :)

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by TomMarker ... Conveniently, Ohio State keeps all the JAMA in their Education Library, so I was able to dig this up. It was indeed very brief. :) Tom,

The article was brief. Mario is a member of e-Budo so you may want to PM him. He may be able to provide additional insight.

Regards,

[Gojute]

Hello everyone,
Ok... so we now have seen 20 variations (some quite impressive) and we've had a discussion of what to make them out of. But now one has given any history on them.
1.Where did they come from?
2.What are their supposed use?
3.Were they used for the creation of just one kata?
4.Are they an adaptation for one kata or all?
5.Are they suppose to have a purpose other than to augment striking?
6.Who are the current teachers associated as the teaching of these kata?
7.Are the kata versions all the same or varied?

Ok... that should just about do it. :smash:
Lets see what someone must know. :D

Ron J. Brookshire JR.

[TomMarker]

I too would be interested in hearing some historical details if anyone would like to share.

[Hank Irwin]

From what one Kyoshi has told me ChishiKunBo come originally from the Phillipines. They were used originally as fishing net gatherings to aid in retrieving their nets, tied into the netting. The 300 year old one from Phillipines I saw, with sharks teeth embedded in em, were more than likely an adation, no practical use for this particular one except combat. In this family also is Tenouchi(Japanese buki), looks kinda like chishikunbo but round on both ends with one hole in middle for a 7' cord to pass through, is tied in knot to form circle. In English terms, garrotte', is also related to "Thuggies" ancient mid-east Warriors whose neck sash was a trained weapon. These weapons are so easily consealed and are very leathal to say the least. ChishikunBo, tecchu, tekko,siruchin, and many more of these smaller type weapons could have been a favorite of Sapposhi and such, also the Phillipino sailors that frequently visited Loo Choo. For the most part, kata I do not think was adventd till the early 1900's, but I sure that different "sets" of drills for weapons was a given. This was more than likely how different kata came about. These kakusu buki(concealed weapons) are just now gaining popularity. I believe Oyata Sensei was first one to introduce ChishikunBo to US KarateKa here in states. Their are quite a few Sensei here in US that teach these delightfully dangerous tools. Just a few thoughts.

[TomMarker]

My understanding is that some of the waza come from adaptations of the tessen and tantojutsu. Does this seem accurate?

[Gojute]

Well,
I think Mr. Irwin is correct in essence as to what the source was. THey were supposedly used in the fishing industry as floats attached to the net that also aided in pulling in the nets. THis comes from THe two main teachers of this weapon in the USA (Seiyu Oyata and Kimo Wall). THese two seem to be the best sources for information and their information is very similar and coincides with the above explanation.
All the others that I am aware share these same sources or have adapted this weapon with little true knowledge of the kata in which they originated. I say this based on the fact that you do not see this weapon introduced into general curriculum till after Oyata or Wall introduced it and many of the reported teachers are not doing a kata version similar to these in any way.
Also, when looking at the pics of various weapons,(Sharp pointed ends, loop for the finger off-set from the center, lengths extended)most seem to be created with a weapon aspect in mind not a fishing use. The ones used by both Oyata and Wall have two holes drilled so that the loop is in the center, and the string is weaved in one hole and out the other with the ends knotted or tied together, the ends rounded, and the length is where it extends only about about 1/2 inch beyound the side edges of the closed fist. THe length seems small but this would prevent entanglement with the nets. Also the method of attachment with the loop would facilitate attachment after the net had been completed and easy reattachment should the string break during pulling in.
Introduction wise and date wise, Oyata is the first to introduce publicly.
Kimo Wall learned his kata from another source, but the pattern is very similar between his version and Oyata's. This seems to verify that the teachers of Oyata and the time period they lived in were the origination of this particular form.
I know the Kimo Wall version and have had the privilege to see the Oyata version a couple of times. THey are very similar (almost identical) in pattern but definitely not the same.The interpretation is somewhat different. SO in all likelihood, they are from two different sources that have a common root.
One can speculate many things as to how this came into being interpreted into a weapon and the possible true nature involved in its use in the past. :nin:
More of question would be the kata into which it became fully used. I have heard there are 3-4 kata that comprise the total system for this weapon, but that could actually be one kata with three variances in timing which to some would appear as 3-4 similar yet different kata.
THe other weapons That Mr Irwin mentioned like the cord tied through one for a garrotte, and his explanation that "ChishikunBo, tecchu, tekko,siruchin, and many more of these smaller type weapons could have been a favorite of Sapposhi, 'thuggies', and sialors." make perfectly good sense as kakusu buki(concealed weapons).

ROn J. Brookshire Jr.

[Gojute]

Well,

I think Mr. Irwin is correct in essence as to what the source was. THey were supposedly used in the fishing industry as floats attached to the net that also aided in pulling in the nets. THis comes from THe two main teachers of this weapon in the USA (Seiyu Oyata and Kimo Wall). THese two seem to be the best sources for information and their information is very similar and coincides with the above explanation.

All the others that I am aware share these same sources or have adapted this weapon with little true knowledge of the kata in which they originated. I say this based on the fact that you do not see this weapon introduced into general curriculum till after Oyata or Wall introduced it and many of the reported teachers are not doing a kata version similar to these in any way.

Also, when looking at the pics of various weapons,(Sharp pointed ends, loop for the finger off-set from the center, lengths extended)most seem to be created with a weapon aspect in mind not a fishing use. The ones used by both Oyata and Wall have two holes drilled so that the loop is in the center, and the string is weaved in one hole and out the other with the ends knotted or tied together, the ends rounded, and the length is where it extends only about about 1/2 inch beyound the side edges of the closed fist. THe length seems small but this would prevent entanglement with the nets. Also the method of attachment with the loop would facilitate attachment after the net had been completed and easy reattachment should the string break during pulling in.

Introduction wise and date wise, Oyata is the first to introduce publicly.

Kimo Wall learned his kata from another source, but the pattern is very similar between his version and Oyata's. This seems to verify that the teachers of Oyata and the time period they lived in were the origination of this particular form.

I know the Kimo Wall version and have had the privilege to see the Oyata version a couple of times. THey are very similar (almost identical) in pattern but definitely not the same.The interpretation is somewhat different. SO in all likelihood, they are from two different sources that have a common root.

One can speculate many things as to how this came into being interpreted into a weapon and the possible true nature involved in its use in the past.
:nin:

More of question would be the kata into which it became fully used. I have heard there are 3-4 kata that comprise the total system for this weapon, but that could actually be one kata with three variances in timing which to some would appear as 3-4 similar yet different kata.

THe other weapons That Mr Irwin mentioned like the cord tied through one for a garrotte, and his explanation that "ChishikunBo, tecchu, tekko,siruchin, and many more of these smaller type weapons could have been a favorite of Sapposhi, 'thuggies', and sailors." make perfectly good sense as kakusu buki(concealed weapons).

ROn J. Brookshire Jr.

[the Khazar Kid]

Some links:


www.yawara.com/

www.drearic.com/yawara.html

www.drearic.com/koppostick.html

www.drearic.com/koppostick2.html

www.drearic.com/fistload.html

www.drearic.com/brassknuckles.html

www.olohe.com/weapons/kuekue_lima/kuekue_lima.html

www.olohe.com/weapons/kaane/kaane.html

www.seishinkan.com/seishin/sskbuki/kakushi/tenouc1.htm

www.seishinkan.com/seishin/sskbuki/kakushi/sunt01.htm

Jesse Peters

[Hank Irwin]

Great links JesseSan! Some wild looking stuff too!:D

[the Khazar Kid]

Thanks! The first link has Matsuyama's classic manual on the Yawara Stick for free. The next five are all informative articles from the erudite and deadly Don Rearic, who often graces these very forums with his august presence and who also brought to my attention the first site.

The Emei sting is thought to originate from the Warrior Temple on Mount Emei in Western China. The Emei monks practiced a half-hard half-soft boxing, midway between the soft boxing of Wudang and the hard boxing of Shaolin. This weapon was also considered useful for underwater fighting.

In Fillipino arts the palm stick or fistload is sometimes called "tabak maalit". Haven't specifically heard of shark teeth on any of these yet, but I wouldn't be surprised.

As far as shark-tooth weapons go, the "kuekue lima" and similar were used by Polynesian boxers. See the article on "Knuckle Dusters" in G. C. Stone's immortal "Glossary of the Construction Decoration and Use of All Weapons" for some interesting weapons of this (small impact)type, as well as kaiken/sabungin (small spikes/hooks/spurs/fingerblades) type weapons, from Africa, Polynesia, and Japan.


Jesse Peters