View Full Version : Wrist locks, or forearms - Katori?

Benjamin Peters
9th May 2002, 22:41
Looking at a Draeger book the other day, I saw some pictures with a Japanese guy of the Katori Shinto Ryu doing a wrist lock, but the difference being he was not grabbing the hand to turn it into a wrist lock. He was grabbing the lower forearm - any one shed some light as to why the lowerforearm/wrist was grabbed instead of the actual hand? I would have thought the hand would provide more leverage than the forearm. Is there a historical reason - like armour or something?

11th May 2002, 16:24
without seeing the picture i can only speculate.
we have a technique that is similar to aikido sankyu. we control the wrsit to forearm with one hand and the actual forearm with the other.as one hand starts the twist at the wrist the other pushes the forearm up as we step inside. the origination of this technique was a samurai with a sword in his hand so you could grab to far down on the wrist or grab the hand itself as in sankyu. or version on kote gaishi is that way also. we counter as if uke had a sword in his hand. i hope this helps

11th May 2002, 19:36
This might be something like the aikido yonkyo - uke is controlled by grasping his forearm and wielding it like a sword - raise up and cut down.

There's also some pain compliance with the knuckle of the index finger pressing against the radial bone.

Did the photo caption describe the technique as a wrist-lock?

Benjamin Peters
11th May 2002, 23:19
Well picture this:

Form a triangle between your thumb and index finger webbings (palm facing away from you). Now picture those hands around a person's forearm/wrist (where their watch is put on). This is what I see.

So the sequence goes a little something like this:
(1) Person is shizentai
(2) attacker grabs the persons hair from the top of the defender's head
(3) defender grasps as in description above and steps in and moves into a wrist/arm lock.

12th May 2002, 14:36
Hi Benjamin..
The lock that you describe is the one shown by Otake Risuke-san of the Shinto Ryu and is a technique used as a defense against a grab on the 'topknot' hairstyle used by the samurai..
The lock IS a kotegaeshi...If you look hard you can see that Risuke-san has reversed the wrist and has secured the Uke's hand to his (non-existant bu the idea's the same..) 'Topknot' and is levering the whole arm through the wrists 'outside' and unbendable section in a move similar to that done (quite commonly) in both Aikido and Jujutsu (we call it 'Hongyaku'...I think in KJJR...) against a lapel grab where the wrist and arm are turned inward and the wrist is 'leant' on...VERY painful and VERY easy to cause damage...Same type of waza as the one above I believe..And still a KOTE-gaeshi...Wrist reverse..

Phil Farmer
12th May 2002, 21:28
I would also concur with the idea that the forearm is being used due to what is being grasped (topknot)and because the forearm is what is available. Also, in Yoseikan, we have these situations arise when we are defending against weapons where it might not be prudent to get closer to the hand or wrist, but I can testify that a "kotegaeshi" applied to the forearm can be just as painful. It has made me drop more than one weapon.

Greg Jennings
21st May 2002, 19:58
In my instructor's way of thinking, it isn't that one has the wrist, forearm, elbow or whatever that matters, it's how the connection (I believe some people call this a "Communal Lock") to uke is achieved. How the slack is taken out so the limb can be used as a lever to move the body.

We have a really wicked throw that utilizes the elbow a'la a single-armed jujinage. It's just a kotegaeshi at the elbow rather than at the wrist.

That said, the using the wrist generally works better than the forearm for me because there is more lever-arm to provide torque. Like using a long-handled wrench rather than a short-handled one.

Also, the Ki Society folks have renamed their art "Koteoroshi" to better reflect the dropping nature of it versus the turning nature of the kotegaeshi. (This is second-hand, please don't hold me to absolute specifics here).

Best Regards,

Adam Young
28th May 2002, 00:45
Otake Risuke-san of the Shinto Ryu
Risuke-san has reversed the wrist Just for your information, Otake sensei's family name is OTAKE and his given name is RISUKE. "Risuke-san" sounds a bit too familiar and, to be honest, disrespectful. There is no way in HELL I would call him that. Not unless I wanted some fellow students to give me a big ol' thumpin'.

Not a big deal, but just FYI. :) I know it can be difficult at times to distinguish given and family names in Japanese.

28th May 2002, 14:36
Hi Adam,
My bad...Must have been one of those no-brainer days when I posted that. I DO know the difference between the given names and especially Otake-san's but like I say I messed up that one:mad:
Your point was appreciated and thanks for pointing it out. Absolutely no disrespect was meant by me.
Domo arigato gozaimashita:smilejapa