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Anders Pettersson
14th May 2002, 06:54
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Gassho.

Just a short info that it now is possible to buy the "new" type of faceguard that Hombu have been developing the last few years.
http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/2002face.jpg

It is somewhat expensive, in the monthly Shorinji Kempo magazine Kaiho (Japanese only), it is listed that if orderingtwo you get them for 52.000 yen and one single one costs 27.300 yen.
The "new" (not that new anymore) type of doubble Do is the same price of 26.000 yen and the doubble kinteki cup is about 4.800 yen.

/Anders

luar
14th May 2002, 13:04
I would be curious to know if the the face shield is made of plastic that is highly flexible to absorb blows or is it very brittle.

migjohns
15th May 2002, 01:15
The new BOGU are really fantastic. Lasy year I had the opportunity to attend the Tokai Kenkyukai where we were instructed in the various ways of training with the new protectors. We also were given the opportunity to do quite a bit of sparring using the new BOGU. It was really fun. The face shield is extremly strong yet flexible, and the visibility is really good -- I also did not experience the "fogging" that sometimes happens with other plastic face protectors.

There was an instructional video produced by Hombu for the Kenkyukai (I received a free one for being a participant) which showed how the new BOGU should, and shouldn't, be used -- as well as instructions for SHIMPAN (referees)for BOGU sparring.

Anyone who chooses to buy this gear should request a copy of the video from Hombu.

Cheers,
Mike Johnson

luar
15th May 2002, 11:53
One more question.... Does the face shield need to be periodically changed?

Rogier
15th May 2002, 11:59
looking at that pic..... wouldn't it have the same effect if you just wear a motor helmet??

George Hyde
15th May 2002, 20:35
Originally posted by Rogier
wouldn't it have the same effect if you just wear a motor helmet??

No, a motorcycle helmet - being heavy and inflexible - would risk neck injury to the person wearing it and likely damage the person doing the striking. Nothing is going to provide 100% protection for full-contact work, but these come very close.

Later,

Rogier
15th May 2002, 22:12
okay thanx...

Jens
30th May 2002, 05:09
I like the idea of a plastic facemask, but isn't this one awfully big? I don't practice shorinji kempo myself, but if I'm not mistaken, you guys incorporate grappling techniques - but can you grapple with that thing in front of you?

Kimpatsu
30th May 2002, 08:51
Jens,
This helmet is for goho randori, in which no juho is involved (normally). It's to help concentrate on the hard (goho) techniques at full power without risk of injury.
HTH,

shugyosha
30th May 2002, 12:27
so juho and goho randori is separated? what about juho randori?

Kimpatsu
30th May 2002, 17:06
Yes, there is juho randori, and there is randori that combines both goho and juho. Each has its place, and each requires a different approach. Remember: Randori is to improve your technique, so diffent types are required for different focuses. Why else would you do it?

Jens
31st May 2002, 03:06
Tony,

When you do do goho randori, is it full contact? Or, what I really want to know is if the plastic facemask can withstand a full contact blow? The reason I'm asking is that in Nippon Kempo, we have these kendo-style masks that are not only heavy, but limits your vision as well. (And I don't even want to think about what would happen if you attempt a high kick...ouch! ) I thought they were designed this way because of the full contact nature of the art, but if there is a modern, better alternative, I would like to know.

Regards,

Kimpatsu
31st May 2002, 04:28
Randori can take many forms. Without padding, only light contact is permitted. With the padding...
In the early days of Shorinji Kempo, kenshi wore kendo masks much as you describe. This new helmet is lighter and more pliable, but is designed to withstand a full contact blow. I've yet to try it, however, so I can't speak as to the efficacy of design.
HTH,

Jeremy Williams
31st May 2002, 11:39
Hi all! This is my first post anywhere on the net, so please forgive any mistakes. Anyway, regarding the new face mask: have tried it out several times now and it's a lot of fun. However, I feel I should mention that it is most definitely not designed to take full-force blows. We've already had problems on that one, what with a number of uni students apparently managing to make noses disappear into skulls and eye-sockets etc.The objective is to give you a better understanding of the maai involved in goho work, so the blow should make contact, but be pulled. For this reason, it's recommended that you don't use those hand gloves when working with the mask. The extra few centimeters it gives you before you sense contact, and are thus able to retract, makes all the difference. Again, you are likely to end up going through the mask before you can adjust the level of force. Ouch!
It is excellent for teaching form on punching. There is always a tendency to lean or look slightly away from the direction you are punching. If you are then hit in the face, particularly from the side by the defender, your head will do a very nast whip to the side. If you are punching correctly, however, the mask is so designed as to take the force of that punch with the lower part of the transparent shield which then transfers that impact to your upper chest. The same applies when executing, say, a tsubame gaeshi. If you don't keep you chin in and down...
One note of caution here from a sadder and wiser man: don't be lulled into a false sense of security. The tendency is to think "sport" and go for it without properly guarding yourself. The result is often, as I found out, a very nasty smack in the chops.
Hope that is of some help.

Jeremy Williams

Kikazaru
31st May 2002, 13:21
I suppose the psychological aspect of wearing gloves, or not, can influence the stopping distance and power one tends to put into a strike.

It seems pretty unlikely however, that the sense of physical contact could facilitate a withdrawl reaction in the kind of time that passes between about 2cm of fist travel around the contact velocity of a punch. The latency of the stetch reflex is about 40ms. This is the fastest reflex arc in the body since it doesn't even contact the brain. Conciously controllable responses to sensory stimuli require processing in the motor cortex of the brain and require at least 100-200ms or so to get there and back. 2cm in 40ms = 0.5 m/s, 2cm in 100ms = 0.2 m/s. That's a pretty slow punch!

J.Hale

Jeremy Williams
1st June 2002, 02:08
Hail, Kikazaru. Thank you for that. Obviously, a man of science! Actually, I was a bit sceptical on that one, too. That's why I wrote "it's recommended". I would suspect that either the Honbu or the company that developed the product came up with that particular caveat, most probably to cover themselves against any such eventuality. However, the main point remains: you'd be taking quite a risk in allowing punches full out with that face mask. That's probably why the axe kick and spinning kick are expressly ruled out in the video on using it. I imagine that those kicks would be particularly hard to control if you were going to make contact at all. I guess what we are left with is an attempt at a near optimum compromise: not too heavy, doesn't fog (a big plus in my book), and allows a blow to be delivered with reasonable force to an instructive distance from the head. Instructive, because if you haven't done something about it by then, then you probably aren't going to be able to. I suspect that an even more efficient mask could be designed, but that the economics rule it out. 26,000 Yen is quite a chunk, even if you earn on a Tokyo scale.

Jeremy Williams

Kikazaru
1st June 2002, 12:09
Yeah, I'm quite interested in having a shot with one. I've tried a few other head guards and it is certainly very desirable to have face protection in there. Without it you must either rule out strikes to the face, or wear big gloves that tend to make blocking rather too easy.
On the other hand, full perspex shields, even with breath holes tend to get fogged up pretty quickly. Maybe in this new unit the shield is far enough away from the face to prevent fogging, or maybe they treated the perspex with some kind of anti-condensation material (if such exists)?
My current favorite so far was a soft strap on head protector with a few plastic bars in front of the face. It doesn't fog up, but the bars do reduce visibility. It's still a bit hard on the hands so it goes well with the really light gloves you can buy. You can't aim to put any real power into your strikes but it's really good for full speed practice.
It looked from the demos I saw, that the new unit facilitated some fairly powerful strikes. I was wondering if that affects one's fighting style much. -It's certainly possible to start playing pattycake when you only have touch contact for example. Also, it looks like a lot of blows that are partially blocked might end up skiffing the helmet. Does that affect the wearer's head position, balance etc. ?

Gary Dolce
1st June 2002, 15:38
Questions about the new headgear for Kenshi who have used it:

Given the gap that separates the face mask from the face, do users get a false sense of proper distance when using it? When dodging, we are encouraged to move just enough to avoid the attack. But "just enough" without the face mask might not be enough to avoid substanital contact with the mask on. So does wearing the mask encourage exaggerated dodging motions?

Likewise, an attack that would not normally be deep enough to make contact with a bare face might make substantial contact with the mask. Does this lead to an incorrect perception of distance on the part of the attacker? I have noticed that this occurs sometimes with the chest protectors we use.

A comment about "full-contact" strikes with protective gear on:
I haven't used the new headgear yet, but I don't think any protective gear that allows reasonable freedom of movement will provide perfect protection from full-contact strikes. I know of cases of broken ribs that occurred through the older style (single layer) chest protector, and that resulted from a kick through the gap between the top of the chest protector and the Kenshi's arm on the new style (two layer) protectors. I think it is important for instructors (and randori referees) to point out the limitations of the equipment and for Kenshi to take responsibility for using them safely.

Jeremy Williams
2nd June 2002, 04:50
Just a quicky in reply to a couple of questions that have cropped up. First, regarding whether a glancing blow on the perspex shield will affect your balance: yes, it will, especially if you have allowed your chin to rise up. This means the lower part of the shield can't transfer the force to your collar-bone region and your head will move accordingly. As a result, you may well lose a little balance there. Secondly, as regards whether the shield will give you a false sense of distance: well, maybe no. IMHO, if a blow has come that close, so as to skim the mask (and I always train with the idea that the guy may have a key or small blade in his hand I hadn't noticed), then I feel that I've left it a little too close for safety. I would tend to count that as a fatal blow, stop, and start again. Yes, too much tai sabaki can be a mistake (it can destroy your balance, for one thing), but too little can be just as deleterious to the health. We have always used the masks with a ref, so that has helped. Even if I haven't been able to judge whether a blow was merely a skim or substantial, the ref has. i.e. by whether there was any crook left in the attackers arm at the moment of impact.
I really do believe they bring you a lot closer to reality than the old style ones, though there will always be something missing.

Jeremy Williams

Kimpatsu
2nd June 2002, 12:49
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
Given the gap that separates the face mask from the face, do users get a false sense of proper distance when using it? When dodging, we are encouraged to move just enough to avoid the attack. But "just enough" without the face mask might not be enough to avoid substanital contact with the mask on. So does wearing the mask encourage exaggerated dodging motions?
Good question, and I wondered about it myself, but it seemed like heresy to question Hombu. ;)
Dolce sensei: I understand your point with regard to the old Do as you mention them, but what about the new "dfouble-layer" type? Have you tried them yet?
Kesshu,

Kikazaru
2nd June 2002, 13:00
That's interesting Jeremy. I definately want to try them out, but I maintain a little skepticism.

The standard ran dori protocol of going at it until there is one good contact and stopping at that point is a bit unrealistic in some ways. Although it's pretty tiring, I think its also good practice to use one reasonable strike as the break-in point for a series of three or four dominating blows. Likewise, maintaining your guard and composure after a strike comes in is a lot better than giving it up at that point.

I guess that's not so relevant to whether you are wearing the big new helmets, but when it comes to skiffing strikes, or strikes that come close to the head, I don't think it's such a good idea to maintain such a large distance against them. Especially with close quarters punching to the head and body its really important to keep the head, and secondly the body covered, but its just impossible to keep the opponents strikes a long way away. Also, taking advantage of really slight dodge and cover movements lets one respond much more quickly. I guess I'm talking about the kind of blocks and dodges that one makes with an indeterminate part of the body -whatever happens to be near the attack at the time.

I'm anticipating a similar effect as is caused by the big two-layer chest guards. Because they are so big its easy to smack them so they make a really satisfying noise, but in reality your partner might have quite easily turned the blow with the angle of their body, or dodged it by a few centimetres.

Eitherway, having criticised some styles of ran dori, I should also add the proviso that there are many different styles of ran dori. It's good to practice them all, since having different constraints they yield different training emphasese and are all potentially beneficial.

Gary Dolce
3rd June 2002, 03:05
Gassho,

Thanks for the interesting comments on the new headgear. As I said in my note, I haven't had the chance to try it yet, so my questions are not intended as criticism - just a desire for more information with a small dose of skepticism thrown in. The skepticism comes from the observation that while regular practice with protective gear is a very effective way to build certain skills, over use of this kind of practice can cause some bad habits, such as lack of control, inability to do sundome, etc.

I have used the double-layer Do and I agree that they offer substantially greater protection than the old ones. But all equipment has limitations and the double-layer Do is no exception. I have noticed that even very weak strikes can make a very satisfying sound, which may lead to the perception that the strike was more effective than it really was. And, while I haven't seen an injury through the new Do, I have seen a substantial injury (broken ribs) as a result of a strike that went above the Do. I have also caught my toes in the gap at the bottom of my partner's do while kicking and had the inside of my upper arm pinched by the layers of my own do as they smack together. These last two are minor injuries, but painful nontheless.

I like practicing with Do, and I think the new ones in general are safer than the old ones. But I believe any kind of protective gear needs to be used safely and in moderation.

luar
3rd June 2002, 03:54
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
I have used the double-layer Do and I agree that they offer substantially greater protection than the old ones. But all equipment has limitations and the double-layer Do is no exception. I have noticed that even very weak strikes can make a very satisfying sound, which may lead to the perception that the strike was more effective than it really was. And, while I haven't seen an injury through the new Do, I have seen a substantial injury (broken ribs) as a result of a strike that went above the Do. I have also caught my toes in the gap at the bottom of my partner's do while kicking and had the inside of my upper arm pinched by the layers of my own do as they smack together. These last two are minor injuries, but painful nontheless.

Gary, It was also my pleasure also to have met you last week. Thanks for all the lessons and the time spent organizing the event

What Gary says about this Do is true. I purchased this Do and the reason I got it is because I am very tall and it seems to me that my size gives everyone a psychological license to hit me with their hardest. I've had the wind knocked out of me with very well placed chudan punches using the cheaper Dos.

It offers amazing protection against many kinds of kicks but during my first week with it, I got a lot of bruises around the edges from all the hard striking. I also fractured a toe when I got it caught underneath the first shell against a fellow kenshi who also got the same Do. I would recommend that anyone who is new to this Do, get some preliminary safety instruction.

Sometimes the sound is annoying and we have one kenshi who was able to put some light padding in between the shells to deaden the sound somewhat. Sometimes I think you can tell when you made a good strike by the sound and other times I could swear it has intimidated many potential students from joining our club.

My most critical complaint is that adjusting the straps is a major pain. It is obviously not meant for people my size (6'3 or 190.5 cm) since the straps are barely long enough to fit my frame. Sometimes the straps slip out of their bindings after several moments of hard use. We share all of our equipment and I noticed that the women in our dojo immediately rush to use this Do and if I do not attend every class, then I am constantly re-adjusting the straps. I am considering of changing the straps altogether.

Needless to say, I am happy that I have this Do because it does offer me great protection.

Boris
8th June 2002, 14:44
Here's my 2-cents worth,
I've used the new headgear about 10 times now.
I was quite surprised when I first starting using it. We have to give other Kenshi a chance to sense the distance and feel of hitting it, but it's really hard to not block!!! I always was inclined to pull back or do a block!
Things are better now. We usually do some pre-set Waza's(Tsubame Gaeshi, Tsuki ten ichi, etc.) The gear can get pretty damn warm, though.
As for shock, aside from the loud "clack", the headgear seems to absorb quite a bit.
I think it's great because we can really go for the head whereas before their was sometimes the habit of not really attempting to land a blow.

Shaunessey Joudrey