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Lens
15th May 2002, 08:51
Hello friends,
I have been a frequent visitor in e-budo for the past 3 months. Primarily I had no intention of posting my self but I have come across something rather interesting.

I have found a website of a Japanese Martial Arts Society which is said to be governed by the Japanese Royal family and I found out that recently they had a seminar in Japan in the Butokuden which earlier in my research I found out that it is the oldest Martial Arts building in existence and is built were Samurai and so, all started.

The web site of this society is:
http://www.dainipponbutokukai.org

I also found out some websites of some of their members which are:

www.bushido-vak.de
www.jujutsu.hu
www.neglobal.co.uk/ukjjai
www.chito-ryu.com/
www.martialartsca.com/
www.welcome.to/dragonsdenmalta
www.budocenter.ru
www.trymysport.co.uk/jujitsu.htm

Please tell me what you think about it all,
Your friend,
Lens Devedon

fifthchamber
15th May 2002, 16:13
Hi Lens,
The Butokuden (Hall of Martial virtues) was established in the Heian era in what is now Kyoto. It was set up within the Imperial palace as an area where warriors recieved training in arts such as Horse back riding and Archery among others and was sanctioned by the Emperor and the Heian court originally.
The website you mention is the site promoting the modern Dai Nippon Butokukai (Great Japanese Martial Virtues Organisation) and their hall of training in Tokyo now.
The hall is used for displays, Enbu (Demo's), tournaments and competitions, and training in arts such as Kendo, Karate, and Judo among others...I think that they may hold Koryu Taikai there also but these aremore often held in Kyoto still. (Others will confirm this more exactly no doubt... ;) )
The modern Tokyo based hall dates from around the turn of the 20th century and as such is a fairly modern building, its history does date back to Heian times but the building and its location have been moved several times throughout Japanese history and the one here is only its most recent base.
I think that Kyoto also still maintains a Butokuden and also possibly other cities in Japan but the Tokyo center is the capital cities 'nod' to Japans history of Martial arts and training in them.
I believe that the modern hall offers training in mostly Gendai Budo such as Judo, Kendo, or Karate with less focus on the Koryu arts but I could be wrong here with regard to the Koryu training.
The websites that are affiliated are those that offer training in the Gendai arts outside Japan and are promoting Karate, Judo etc worldwide and are linked bck to the Butokukai in Tokyo.
One look at the list of Directors of the Butokukai should confirm that the organisation has a lot to offer as regards the modern arts and the Koryu also...The list of 'Hanshi', and higher is pretty heavyweight!
Thanks for the site...I did not know that they had one..I do now!:p
Abayo

Don Cunningham
15th May 2002, 23:16
The Dai Nippon Butoku Kai is a well-known and respected organization established during the Meiji Era. It has played a significant role in the development of modern kendo and other gendai martial arts. I know the emblem shown on this web site is legitimate as it is the same as the one on their membership badges from their famous 1937 conference. (I have one in my collection.) However, I have to wonder why such an important and prestigious Japanese organization has to headquarter itself in Norfolk, VA? Other Japanese martial arts organizations, such as the Kodokan, the Dai Nippon Kendo Renmai, etc., seem quite able to do business from their offices in Japan.

I also thought this organization was abolished during the Occupation following WWII. I did not know it was ever re-established in Japan. If so, why is their address in Kyoto or Tokyo not listed? I would prefer to verify this group's status directly with the officials in Japan. I've seen way too many individuals here that claim to be representatives and sponsored by legitimate Japanese organizations only to eventually discover they are bogus. In my experience, it's usually a red flag when the local representatives won't provide a Japanese address or contact.

Lens
16th May 2002, 09:12
From my research i did yesterday i found out that the head quorters is in Kyoto governed by the Prince and the USA one is the Head quorters of the international division governed by one who is 25th generation samurai!!! which takes care all international outside japan memberships and events and so on...

Its pretty heavyweight as well, what i just found out on a Kodokan Judo site.......Jigaro Kano (the judo creator guy) was certified him self by this society!

And also it has both Gendai and Koryu (alwas from what i read on other site).... and from a Karate book (ancient okinawan Karate) the badge is said to be the flower of the royal family!!!.

To my disapointment i cannot find a school afiliated to this that is close to me...at least minimum of 2 hours drive.... :(

since i am currently not in martial arts, id love to start again. Il keep lokin with a lion hearth :)

your friend,
Lens

Amir
16th May 2002, 09:28
Legit - To the best of my knowledge

I can’t add much, but my Sensei has affiliated our Dojo with this organization. He has been to a meeting they organized in England last Year and has traveled to this current celebration in Japan. After his visit to England he stated was most impressed with the level and character of the people attending that event. He hasn’t returned from Japan yet so I apologize can’t add much with regards to this celebration and which known Japanese MA were there. I can ask him once he returns in a couple of weeks.

According to him the organizational headquarters are in Japan. And if you will read the web site carefully, you will find out this is only international branch is located in the US, not the real organization headquarters.
One can also read in the site that the organization has been abolished immediately after WWII and was reestablished (apparently with a slightly different agenda) after Japan has regained it’s independence, due to the peace treaty with the U.S.


Amir

Chris Li
16th May 2002, 13:13
Originally posted by Lens
From my research i did yesterday i found out that the head quorters is in Kyoto governed by the Prince and the USA one is the Head quorters of the international division governed by one who is 25th generation samurai!!! which takes care all international outside japan memberships and events and so on...

Its pretty heavyweight as well, what i just found out on a Kodokan Judo site.......Jigaro Kano (the judo creator guy) was certified him self by this society!

And also it has both Gendai and Koryu (alwas from what i read on other site).... and from a Karate book (ancient okinawan Karate) the badge is said to be the flower of the royal family!!!.

To my disapointment i cannot find a school afiliated to this that is close to me...at least minimum of 2 hours drive.... :(

since i am currently not in martial arts, id love to start again. Il keep lokin with a lion hearth :)

your friend,
Lens

From what I can tell, the organization is indeed legitimate - at least in the sense that it actually exists in Japan. The current group's activities are, AFAIK, greatly reduced from what they were pre-war - mostly multi-art demonstrations and the like. The organization that Kano belonged to and the current one are really two completely different groups.

A 25th generation samurai isn't particularly anything special, a lot of Japanese have samurai roots. As with many things, "samurai" covers a great deal of territory. My wife's family were technically samurai, for example, but out in the countryside there was little difference between them and the rest of the farming community except that maybe they had more to brag about (and less to eat then a lot of the farmers). Anyway, nobody's been samurai for over a 100 years, so counting yourself as a continuing "generation" seems a little odd to me.

I don't know about the prince, but it doesn't seem unlikely to me - most Japanese organizations try to get some famous person on the letterhead to lend some prestige to their particular group (the Aikikai always trots out former prime minister Toshiki Kaifu for their demonstrations). In this case it probably doesn't mean much more than that he lets them use his name.

They're a lot of "hanshi" and "renshi" on the list, but it doesn't say where they got those titles, which makes them less meaningful. For example, it lists a "renshi" in Aikido, but none of the major Aikido groups use that designation, so the title (I assume) most likely comes from the Butokukai itself.

Best,

Chris

Lens
16th May 2002, 17:04
WELL CHRIS YOU SEEM TO BE TALKING FOR YOUR OWN INTERESTS WITH THAT POST!!!

I guess yes the titles may have come from butoku kai itsself...... what higher organization would honor you with such titles...from my reaserch its the highest organization in Japan.

Don Cunningham
16th May 2002, 21:16
from my reaserch its the highest organization in Japan.
Japan's third largest city and also its oldest, Kyoto's elevation is about the same as Boston. While there are several mountains forming a defensive perimeter around Kyoto, the actual city is chiefly located in the valley area between them. Therefore, your comment about this being the "highest organization in Japan" is probably not really accurate. It is understandable, though, since the mountain ranges surrounding the city could easily give one that impression.

Brently Keen
16th May 2002, 22:22
LOL!!!

Chris Li
17th May 2002, 00:09
Originally posted by Lens
WELL CHRIS YOU SEEM TO BE TALKING FOR YOUR OWN INTERESTS WITH THAT POST!!!

I guess yes the titles may have come from butoku kai itsself...... what higher organization would honor you with such titles...from my reaserch its the highest organization in Japan.

Huh? What interests are those? The butokukai has exactly zero relation or influence on anything that I do - most Japanese people (including martial artists) have never even heard of the modern group.

My point about titles was that there is a difference in citing titles that are self-awarded, and the difference is that there is no reference point to determine the actual standing of those people in their own organizations. Those people may well be highly qualified, but there's no way to tell since the only titles cited come solely from the butokukai.

And FWIW, I train (and have trained with) any number of 7th, 8th, and 9th dans in Japan and not a one of them has any kind of certification from the butokukai. As I said, in Japan very few people seem to care about (or even notice) certification from this organization. Mainly they put on multi-art demonstrations.

Best,

Chris

Joseph Svinth
17th May 2002, 02:01
The ancient stuff is historical myth created for political purposes in Japan during the 1890s. The basic historical outline is this. In 1895, the Great Japan (e.g., Imperial Japanese) Hall of Martial Arts Virtue (Dai Nihon Butokukai) was established at Kyoto. The timing commemorated the (legendary) 2000th anniversary of the founding of Kyoto, and organizational leaders included Prince Akihito, the governor of Kyoto (Watanabe Chiaki), a Shinto bishop, and the head of the Kyoto Chamber of Commerce. Following the Russo-Japanese War, the Butokukai started its own martial art school, the Bujutsu Senmon Gakko. This school was registered with the Ministry of Education in September 1911 and became a full-fledged college in January 1912. In March 1942 the Japanese government formally absorbed the Butokukai, and then divided its functions between the Ministry of Public Welfare, the Ministry of Education, and the military. Wartime leaders included Prime Minister Tojo Hideki and the occasional yakuza boss, and under their control the martial arts quickly changed from judo, kendo, and archery to military activities such as glider repair, grenade throwing, and bayonet fighting. Although the Butokukai reverted to a martial arts organization in August 1945, there remained significant confusion and misunderstanding. Therefore the national headquarters of the Butokukai voluntarily disbanded in September 1946 and the last regional branch was disbanded by government decree in November 1946. (Despite what you read, SCAP had nothing against legitimate sports practiced in a democratic fashion. Therefore sumo tournaments resumed during the winter of 1945-1946, and in November 1946 an All-Japan Judo Yudanshakai was organized.)

In 1954, a much smaller version of the Dai Nippon Butokukai was reestablished in Kyoto, a move much applauded at the time by the Japanese political right. However, unlike the prewar DNBK, membership in this organization was entirely voluntary, and its regulations had (and have) no influence on the way anybody did (or does) anything in their own organizations.

PRehse
17th May 2002, 02:52
Hey Chris;
Hi Joseph;

What relationship does this group have with the Kyoto Budokan which has by the way one of the most beautiful kendo halls I have ever seen. Shodokan Aikido is taught there also but we have no relationship to the aforementioned groups either (I don't think anyway).

Lens
17th May 2002, 09:03
No one in the world today can be forced to be members of any organization. but still, Honorable Kiichi Miyazawa, Former Prime Minister of Japan, Honorable Yukio Hayashida, Former Minister of Law. Governor of this society is = prince higashi fushimi jigo, i mean thats a real way of doing things for a nations pride. After all Japanese Budo does belong to Japan and is still a significant part of its cultre. and it makes their members noble martial artists. in my opinion. they are doing things like they used to be in history, keeping traditions and some of their members have recognized new styles which is good for evolution and still they preserve koryu which should be keept as a reference.

There are 2 halls in Kyoto one is the famous Butokuden and the other is the Budo Center in front of it (the kendo hall you mention) but not just kendo. The budo center is quite new but the butokuden is the oldest building in martial arts history and solely is used by Dai Nippon Butoku Kai for butoku activities and where martial artists both japanese and from abroad demonstrate to be recognized and graded by this society. This is the information i got from the Japanese embasy. the best part is: IT IS SANCTIONED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF JAPAN AND BY THE IMPERIAL HOUSEHOLD.

Well as always people try to make fun of things and tend to put down what others have worked for. I am sure that some of which dedicated their lives to put such an organization on its feet. And just because wow theres a better organization than yours, you always find the little details to get throw the subject away.

I THINK I SHOULDENT HAVE POSTED THIS TREAD AFTER ALL, BECAUSE WE ARE SPEACING ABOUT THEM BEHIND THEIR BACKS AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE STRICT COPYRIGHTS SO WE BETTER BE CAREFULL GUYS.

Lens
17th May 2002, 09:22
btw: IT IS NOT JUST ONE ORGANIZATION, ITS A NUMBER OF ASSOCIATIONS FROM JAPAN AND ALSO ABROAD UNDER ONE SOCIETY. SO FOR TITLES SOME OF THEM WERE EVEN AWARDED TITLES FROM 4 ORGANIZATIONS AND FINALLY FROM BUTOKUKAI. (IF YOU READ SOME OF THEIR MEMBERS SITES WELL, YOU WOULD NOTICE THIS).

I AM THINKING ABOUT CONTACTING THEM AND TELLING THEM ABOUT THIS TREAD BECAUSE NOW I AM REALLY GETTING WORRIED ABOUT COPYRIGHTS AND STUFF OR MAYBE THEY WOULD GIVE US THEIR STATEMENTS.

PRehse
17th May 2002, 09:36
Originally posted by Lens
Well as always people try to make fun of things and tend to put down what others have worked for. I am sure that some of which dedicated their lives to put such an organization on its feet. And just because wow theres a better organization than yours, you always find the little details to get throw the subject away.

I THINK I SHOULDENT HAVE POSTED THIS TREAD AFTER ALL, BECAUSE WE ARE SPEACING ABOUT THEM BEHIND THEIR BACKS AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE STRICT COPYRIGHTS SO WE BETTER BE CAREFULL GUYS.
Excuse me but, quickly rereading the posts, who is putting the organization down or making fun of it? Questions are asked, answers given. A public organization is open to scrutiny - where exactly is the copyright infringement. Lens are you a member of the society, have your trained in Kyoto? Frankly your posts puzzle me?

Chris Li
17th May 2002, 09:41
Originally posted by Lens
No one in the world today can be forced to be members of any organization. but still, Honorable Kiichi Miyazawa, Former Prime Minister of Japan, Honorable Yukio Hayashida, Former Minister of Law. Governor of this society is = prince higashi fushimi jigo, i mean thats a real way of doing things for a nations pride. After all Japanese Budo does belong to Japan and is still a significant part of its cultre. and it makes their members noble martial artists. in my opinion. they are doing things like they used to be in history, keeping traditions and some of their members have recognized new styles which is good for evolution and still they preserve koryu which should be keept as a reference.

Who said anything about forcing? What I said was that it's common practice for Japanese organizations to get someone well known to lend their name to their committee. Often (usually?) the persons actual involvement in the organization is very very slight. I would be surprised if any of those people above do much more then lend their names and make a couple of appearances at public events. That's not bad, just standard.



in my opinion. they are doing things like they used to be in history, keeping traditions and some of their members have recognized new styles which is good for evolution and still they preserve koryu which should be keept as a reference.

Did I ever say they were doing something bad? More power to them, whatever they're doing. My point was that they are not what they were in the past (ie, pre-war) - they're not even as well known in Japan as other organizations dedicated to the preservation of things like the koryu.



I THINK I SHOULDENT HAVE POSTED THIS TREAD AFTER ALL, BECAUSE WE ARE SPEACING ABOUT THEM BEHIND THEIR BACKS AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE STRICT COPYRIGHTS SO WE BETTER BE CAREFULL GUYS.

Hmm, so because "Sony" is copyrighted we can't discuss them either? There's no law anywhere prohibiting discussion of something because it's copyrighted.

Best,

Chris

Patrick McCarthy
17th May 2002, 09:59
Hi folks,

I no longer have much to do with the DNBK but still have some research I'd be happy to share. My apologies for the emphasis on karate history, as this is a jujutsu-based forum.

Kind regards

Patrick McCarthy
__________________


When Japan emerged from feudalism in the mid-19th century, the Dai Nippon Butokukai was established as the nation's first government-based organization responsible for classical and modern martial arts. An ultra-traditional Japanese institution, the Butokukai was responsible for the collection, analysis, and promotion of classical and modern martial arts in general. The Meiji Government authorized the Butokukai to research, preserve, and promote Japanese bugei; hold exhibitions and tournaments; collect weapons, equipment, and historical information on all classical combative traditions; and publish martial arts related material.

On September 5, 1896, Emperor Meiji selected Komatsumiya Akihito, a member of the imperial family, to be the Butokukai's first sosai (general director). In October, the association held its first Butokusai (martial arts festival) in a makeshift tent that featured kendo and judo exhibitions. The following year, the sosai and his cabinet of distinguished supporters vigorously lobbied and secured enough financial assistance from both the government and the emperor to establish an institute that could accommodate their growing membership, the Butokuden, the Butokukai?fs official training hall.

In 1899, the construction of the Butokuden was completed and opened adjacent to the historically prominent Heian Shrine, located near Kyoto's Imperial Palace grounds. Serving as the Butokukai's honbu (headquarters), the Butokuden soon attracted Japan's most respected martial artists.

In 1906, Fushinomiya, another member of the imperial household, became the Butokukai's second sosai. Fushinomiya announced the organization?fs intention to establish a martial arts college. With a sizeable grant from the Meiji emperor, the Butokukai embarked upon its plan. In June, Meiji 40 (1907), the Dai Nippon Butokukai became a foundation.

With budo playing an important role in shaping the body, mind, and character of modern Japan, the Butokukai, in connection with the Education Ministry, was able to make both kendo and judo compulsory courses in all middle schools throughout the nation in 1911. Modern budo flourished in Japan's school system, signifying the value the government placed upon budo training.

Also embraced by an aggressive campaign of militarism, modern budo was often glamorized as the way in which "common men built uncommon bravery."[2] Be that as it may, during the post-Edo, pre-WWII interval, kendo and judo, served well to produce strong, able bodies and dauntless fighting spirits for Japan's escalating war-machine.

On September 18, 1911, the Butokukai opened its martial arts college, located next to the Butokuden. First called the Bujutsu Semmon Gakko (martial arts specialty school), the name was later changed to the Budo Semmon Gakko (Martial Ways Specialty School), and nicknamed the Busen. One of Kano Jigoro's top disciples, Isogai Hajime, served as the first director of the Butokukai's judo department. Eminent Hokushin Ittoryu swordsman Naito Takaharu represented the kendo department.

The Mecca of Japan's fighting traditions, the Butokuden was where budo juhapin (the 18 martial ways) were vigorously cultivated and highly revered. With both a two- and four-year program and a host of brilliant instructors, the Busen disciplined its flock in kendo and judo, while teaching military strategy, history, philosophy, and associated academic studies. This resulted in the forging of Japan's "new military mind," the modern samurai warrior. Graduates of this elite fraternity were revered as Japan's most skilled and highly educated experts of their day.

Under the auspices of the Butokukai, martial arts encouraged shushin, kokutai no hongi,[3] and Nihonjinron (Japaneseness), cultural elements that were deeply embraced by Japan's escalating war-machine. During Japan's reactionary era of escalating militarism, the Butokukai established branches in every prefecture to accommodate its growing popularity.

Titles and Ranks
Overseeing the country's entire martial arts community, the Butokukai also conceived of and issued the first distinguished titles for the modern budoka who were considered outstanding in their particular disciplines. The first Shihan ("Master Teacher") titles were Hanshi (?gModel Expert ?gor?h?h Teacher by Example, and Kyoshi, originally known as Tasshi ("Teaching Expert"). In 1934, a third title was introduced, Renshi ("Well Trained or Skilled Expert"). The Butokukai continues to issue these titles to this day. Within the Butokukai, the ranking system was, and still is, the evaluation of an individual's progress toward the attainment of human perfection through the practice of the fighting traditions. This evaluation is not based solely upon physical prowess, but also encompasses the entire human being?fs physical, moral, and spiritual development: budo's goal of cultivating the world-within in an effort to enhance the world-without.

Some of the more recognizable pioneer/authorities of karatedo to receive the Butokukai titles have been: Mabuni Kenwa (Shitoryu), Miyagi Chojun (Gojuryu), Funakoshi Gichin (Shotokan), Funakoshi Giko (Shotokan), Konishi Yasuhiro (Shindo Jinenryu), Ohtsuka Hironori (Wadoryu), Yamaguchi Gogen (Gojukai), Nagamine Shoshin (Matsubayashi Shorinryu), Shinzato Jinan (Gojuryu), Higa Seiko (Gojuryu), Yagi Meitoku (Gojuryu), Ueshima Sannosuke (Kushinryu), Tomoyori Ryusei (Kenyuryu), Kinjo Hiroshi (Koryu), Richard Kim (Shorinjiryu), and Sakagami Ryusho (Itosukai Shitoryu).

Endorsed by the Butokukai, the wearing of sashes and belts was conceived of by the late founder of judo, Kano Jigoro. Kano first foresaw the need to distinguish the difference between the advanced practitioner and the different levels of beginners; thus he developed the dan/kyu system. The dan, or black belt, indicated an advanced proficiency level and those who earned it became known as yudansha (dan recipients); the kyu degrees represented the varying levels of competency below the dan, and were known as mudansha (those not yet having received a dan). Kano Sensei felt it particularly important for all students to fully realize that one's training was in no way complete simply because one had achieved the dan degree. On the contrary, he emphasized that the attainment of the dan rank merely symbolized the real beginning of one's journey. By reaching black belt level, one had, in fact, completed only the necessary requirements to embark upon a relentless journey without distance that would ultimately result in self-mastery.

After establishing the Kodokan dojo (Kano's training institute), Kano Sensei distributed black sashes to all yudansha, which were worn around the standard dogi (practice uniform) of that era. Around 1907, the black sash was replaced with the kuro-obi (black belt), which became the standard still used.

In an effort to regulate the competitive elements of budo, the Butokukai established a unique refereeing system that revolutionized their practice and also served to spread Japanese martial arts. Then, in December 1941, the Butokukai formed a committee to report on the progress of the different budo groups. Konishi Yasuhiro (1893-1983, Shindo Jinenryu) and Ueshima Sannosuke (1895-1986, Kushinryu) were petitioned to report on the progress of karatedo. However, in the following year, because of World War II, the Butokukai was reorganized under the auspices of five ministries: Welfare, Education, War, Navy, and National Affairs.

Shortly after Japan unconditionally surrendered to the Allied Forces in 1945, the occupation forces prohibited all organizations considered to be the roots of militarism in Japan. With Prime Minister Tojo Hideki serving as head of the Butokukai during the war years, it came as no surprise that the Dai Nippon Butokukai, the Busen, and all its affiliates, were the first institutes ordered disbanded and closed after the war.

However, in January 1946, the Education Ministry was put in charge of the budo, which were to serve only as physical education within the school system. Later that year, ex-Butokukai officials successfully made a strong effort to have the association reinstated. However, the judgment was short lived as senior allied officials once again terminated it.

With the Butokukai dormant for the next seven years during the American occupation, various groups used its old honbu, the Butokuden. From 1945 to 1950, it was Allied Forces "GHQ," following that the Legal Affairs and Finance Ministries used it, then, the Kyoto Police Department used it for their official training hall, and finally it was the site of the Tokyo Municipal Koto (13-stringed zither) Association until it was declared a national treasure in 1970. The old dilapidated Butokuden was restored to its original splendor in 1987, although the surrounding buildings were torn down to make room for a new budo dojo.

Modern History
If there was any curiosity on Japan's mainland about toudijutsu prior to the Dai Nippon Butokukai, then it had to have first surfaced from the attention gained when the Imperial Army originally considered its value as an adjunct to physical training. With the draft invoked and Okinawa an official Japanese prefecture, the military vigorously campaigned for recruits there. During the 1891 enlistment medical examinations two young recruits (Yabu Kentsu [1866-1937] and Hanashiro Chomo [1869-1945]) were singled out for their exemplary physical conditioning due to toudijutsu training.

Therefore, the possibility that this little-known plebeian Okinawan fighting phenomenon might enhance Japanese military effectiveness, as kendo and judo had, generated interest in a closer study into its potential. However, the Army ultimately abandoned its interest in Toudijutsu because of impractical training methods, poor organization, and the great length of time it took to gain any proficiency. However, that was not before an independent movement surfaced in an effort to modernize its practice.

Before the turn of the 20th century, a small group of Okinawan karate enthusiasts, headed up by Itosu Ankoh[7], established a campaign to introduce the discipline as a form of physical exercise into the island's school system. In linking the past to the present, Itosu's crusade to modernise toudijutsu resulted in fundamentally revising its practice.

Martial arts throughout the Japanese Empire from 1895-1945 fell directly under the jurisdiction of the Dai Nippon Butokukai, which in turn was accountable only to the Meiji Emperor and his administration. As the sole agency in charge of budo in Japan, the Butokukai was supported in large part by Meiji bureaucrats, the Ministry of Education (Mombusho,) and the military. As such, any and all martial arts or related activities in the country were reported to, and invariably scrutinized by, the Butokukai.

Thoroughly impressed after having observed a toudijutsu demonstration, while in Okinawa just after the turn of the century, Ogawa Shintaro[8] reported his findings to the Education Ministry, which amounted to toudijutsu being recommended for schools in Okinawa Prefecture. By the end of the Meiji Period, the practice of toudijutsu had been greatly improved and, with the emphasis placed upon the repetition of kata, it served as a valuable adjunct to taiso (calisthenics group exercise) in the schools of Okinawa, thanks largely to Ogawa's endorsement, the efforts of Itosu Ankoh, and the new generation of teachers he had produced.

Although there is little testimony to support (or deny) allegations that it was developed in an effort to better prepare draftees for military service, toudijutsu was introduced into Okinawa's school system under the pretense that young men with a healthy body and moral character were more productive to Japanese society. With the prefectural Mombusho office authorizing toudijutsu in Okinawa, it immediately became a concern of the Butokukai. Reports about the value of toudijutsu since its improvement were not infrequent, and the enthusiasm of at least one young naval officer, named Yashiro Rokuro, made an enormous impression upon the Butokukai. Moreover, with Japan's Imperial Navy docked in Okinawa's Nakagusuku Bay on naval maneuvers for a week in 1912, both officers and sailors were invited to explore the value of karatejutsu.[9]

The praise karatejutsu received from the Navy Department sparked widespread curiosity, which resulted in a petition being sent to Okinawa's Mombusho office requesting that a delegation be sent to provide a demonstration before the Butokukai in Kyoto. The Okinawa Board of Education subsequently asked one its teachers, Funakoshi Gichin (1868-1957,) a student of Itosu's, to head up a small delegation. On 5 May 1917, Funakoshi and a small contingent of local enthusiasts provided a demonstration and explanation of toudijutsu at the Kyoto Butokuden. This was the first official demonstration of Toudijutsu on Japan's mainland.

Notwithstanding, it was upon this new foundation laid essentially by Master Itosu that a new generation of experts surfaced. It was during that generation of new experts that Okinawans like Funakoshi Gichin, Motobu Choki (1871-1944), Uechi Kambum (1877-1948), Miyagi Chojun (1888-1953), Toyama Kanken (1888-1966), Mabuni Kenwa (1889-1952), Gima Shinkin (1896-1989,) and Chitose Tsuyoshi (1898-1984), found their way to the Japan's mainland to introduce their interpretations of toudijutsu.

Cultural Forces
Ohtsuka Hironori (1892-1982, the founder of Wadoryu) and Konishi Yasuhiro (1893-1983, the founder of Shindo Jinenryu) were two men largely responsible for initiating the modernization movement that revolutionized Ryukyu kenpo Toudijutsu after its introduction on Japan's mainland. Konishi, a jujutsu expert and prominent kendo teacher, studied toudijutsu before it was formerly introduced to mainland Japan. He was the only man to have studied under Funakoshi Gichin, Motobu Choki, Miyagi Chojun, and Mabuni Kenwa. It was Konishi who first said that, when compared to judo and kendo, toudijutsu was an incomplete discipline.

Konishi described modern karatedo as being forged in the exact image of kendo and judo.[10] By using the combative ethos of the ancient samurai, fundamentally the various schools of kenjutsu (swordsmanship) and jujutsu (grappling), an infrastructure was forged upon which modern budo developed. From the fundamental principles of kenjutsu's most eminent schools, kendo was established; while the principal elements of jujutsu served as the basis upon which judo unfolded. Together, they provided the guidelines in which Japanese karatedo was established: From judo came a lighter version of the standard dogi (practice uniform), the obi (belt), and the dan/kyu system: from kendo came the idea for establishing a teaching and grading standard, protective equipment, and the ippon shobu[11] concept for testing one's skills in competition.

Why?
In contrast to kendo and judo, the original toudijutsu movement lacked a formal practice uniform format. Its teaching curricula varied from person to person and there was no organized standard for accurately evaluating proficiency.

When compared to kendo and judo, Ryukyu kenpo toudijutsu remained uncultivated and without suitable organization or "oneness," in short, it was not Japanese. Ryukyu kenpo toudijutsu was subject to the criticism of rival and xenophobic opposition during that early and unsettled time of transition when it was being introduced from Okinawa to the mainland during the 1920's and early thirties. An old Japanese kotowaza (proverb) aptly describes how things or people that are "different" (i.e. not in balance with "wa") ultimately conform or are methodically thwarted by Japan's omnipotent cultural forces: "Deru kugi wah utareru," virtually means "a protruding nail ultimately gets hammered down."

The transition period was not short nor was it without opposition. It included a justification phase, a time when animosities were aired and the winds of dissension carried the seeds of reorganization. It was a time when foreign customs (Okinawans were openly discriminated against and anti-Chinese sentiment was rampant) were methodically faded out and more homogeneous convictions introduced.

Butokukai Influence
Representing centuries of illustrious cultural heritage, the Butokukai's ultratraditional bugei and budo cliques were deeply concerned by the open hostilities being openly vented between rival leaders.[12] This, with the unorganized teaching curricula, lack of social decorum, and absence of formal practice apparel, testing standard, and competitive element compelled the Butokukai to regard the situation as detrimental to toudijutsu's growth and direction on the mainland and set forth to resolve it.

The Criteria
The principal concern focused not only upon ensuring that teachers of toudijutsu were fully qualified to teach, but also, that the teachers actually understood what they were teaching. For toudijutsu to be accepted in mainland Japan, the Butokukai called for the development and implementation of a unified teaching curricula, the adoption of a standard practice uniform, a consistent standard for accurately evaluating the grades of proficiency, the implementation of Kano Jigoro's dan-kyu[13] system, and the development of a safe competitive format through which participants could test their skills and spirits.

Although it was not the Butokukai that first proposed changing the name of toudijutsu,[14] it was strongly in favor of using a name that was not associated with Japan's enemy, China. However, the Butokukai was responsible for the toudijutsu movement abandoning the "jutsu" suffix and replacing it with the modern term "do," as in judo and kendo, and played an integral role in having the ideogram "sora" (also pronounced "kara") replace the character which connected Toudi to China. Just as 12 inches always equals 1 foot, the plan was to establish a universal set of standards, as judo and kendo had done.

The Butokukai concluded that the improvements it called for would bring about a single coalition under their auspices, as had happened with judo and kendo. There is some uncorroborated gojuryu testimony that maintains that Prince Nashimoto Moriwasa[15] empowered Gojuryu founder Miyagi Chojun to set up a Karate Kyojukai (Karate Teacher Association) on behalf of the Butokukai in 1937 with Konishi and Sannosuke, to implement and oversee this transition.[16] Karatedo?fs continued development was overshadowed by the widespread adversity of World War II, so much so that this universal set of standards failed to ever materialize.

The Butokukai, and other organizations considered the roots of militarism, were dissolved in 1945 after Japan unconditionally surrendered to the Allied Forces.

Still a Vibrant Force
Thought to have vanished altogether, the Dai Nippon Butokukai was privately funded and reorganized in 1953 under the direction of the nucleus of its pre-war membership. Higashifushimi, a member of the Showa emperor's immediate family, served as patron; and Ono Kumao, a prominent Hokkiryu swordsman, became Butokukai director. Located quite close to its original site, the Dai Nippon Butokukai honbu received permission to use the Shoren Temple in Kyoto's Higashi Yamaku, Awahta Guchi, where it remains to this day.

The Butokukai Insignia

The Dai Nippon Butokukai symbol takes its shape from the eight point chrysanthemum, a flower first introduced to Japan in 650 AD from China. The nectar extracted from this flower was at that time made into a wine that was thought to have ensured longevity. The flower became associated with the Emperor, and ultimately became the national flower of Japan, which is still remembered every year on September 9.



The insignia has gold characters on a royal purple background. The color gold represents the idea of richness: the Butokukai believes that the generations of learning transmitted through budo are an invaluable asset to its supporters. The royal purple, the official color of the Emperor, represents the virtuous ideology that governs the behavior of its supporters. The eight points of the flower represent the conceivable gates of attack and defense, a principle that unites all combative disciplines.



The Chinese characters "butoku" represent the martial virtues of the feudal samurai: respect, compassion, gratitude, loyalty, honor, and integrity. The rays emanating from its center are supposed to represent the 18 combative disciplines that served as the platform upon which budo was established. The bow and two arrows represent Japan's very first line of defense during its feudal beginnings.

________________________
Sources of Reference:

Dai Nippon Butokukai Riyaku Reiki (Short History of the Dai Nippon Butokukai) published by the Butokukai, Kyoto, 1987.

Dai Nippon Butokukai Kaiho (Butokukai quarterly Newsletters,) 1987-present.

The cooperation of Konishi Takehiro (Ryobukai,) Sugino Yoshio Meijin (Katori Shintoryu,) Matsushita Kyocho, and the Kyoto Butokukai Honbu.

__________________________


[1] Karel van Wolferen, "The Enigma of Japanese Power," (London: MacMillan London Ltd., 1989), p. 412: ?gWa?h is an element of Japanese culture, perhaps better described as the readiness to sacrifice one's personal interests for the sake of harmonious communal unity

[2] Propaganda popularized by the Butokukai.

[3] Shushin and Kokutai represent diligence, regimentalism, conformism, the commitment to mass productivity, strict adherence to seniority, emperor worship, and lifetime loyalty to its precepts.

[7] Many regarded Itosu as the grandfather of modern karate. Bringing together several traditions, he made learning safer, which surfaced under the name of Ryukyu kenpo karatejutsu.
[8] Ogawa was a bureaucrat from the Kagoshima Prefectural branch (Okinawa had once been under the jurisdiction of Kagoshima„Ÿ„Ÿthe new name for Satsuma han) of the Education Ministry.

[9] See Funakoshi Gichin, "Karatedo, My Way of Life," (English translation) by Kodansha, 1975, p43.

[10] Found in several publications, i.e. "Informal Talks With Yasuhiro," "Memories of Karate," and "Karate and His Life," etc. and corroborated by personal interviews with Konishi's son, Takehiro, in 1992 and 1993.

[11] "Ippon Shobu" literally means ?gone point contest,?h a concept that evolved from the "shinken shobu" of feudal Japan, a match where one fatal blow of the sword determined the outcome of a duel.

[12] Regarded as the master fighter, Motobu Choki insisted that the scholar, Funakoshi Gichin, was an imposter whose karate, although elegant, was ineffective because he had no idea of its application. However, because of his tricky behavior and eloquent explanations, Motobu felt Funakoshi was able to deceive many. This resulted in Motobu issuing a public challenge to Funakoshi. Funakoshi described Motobu as a densely illiterate person, and refused the challenge. Motobu compared Funakoshi to a samisen (stringed guitar) player; a lovely sound but hollow inside, and continued his character attack upon Funakoshi. Every time Motobu's name was mentioned in the presence of Funakoshi, his face contorted in disgust, said Konishi Yasuhiro, who described their hatred for each other like that of a cat and dog. "Karate and His Life," (Tokyo: Kaku Kozu, Ryobukai, 1993), pp. 13-15.

[13] In recognizing the need to distinguish the varying grades of proficiency, Kano Jigoro, the founder of judo, developed a standard called the dan/kyu system; the kyu represented the varying levels of proficiency below the dan, or black belt, level.

[14] In preparation for Kano Jigoro's visit to Okinawa in January 1927 the prefecture recommended using a name which might characterize toutejutsu (Chinese hand) as a martial tradition more closely associated with Okinawa rather than the existing name, which accented its foreign origins. In doing so the terms Shurite, Nahate, and Tomarite (the "te" disciplines native to Shuri, Naha, and Tomari) were born.



[15] ?gKarate History, Traditions & People.?h Farkas & Cochran (Anthony Mirakiam) p356. One problem surrounding this testimony is that Moriwasa, a member of the Imperial Household, did not become the sosai [general director] of the Butokukai until 1942.

Anders Pettersson
17th May 2002, 11:31
Originally posted by Lens
There are 2 halls in Kyoto one is the famous Butokuden and the other is the Budo Center in front of it (the kendo hall you mention) but not just kendo. The budo center is quite new but the butokuden is the oldest building in martial arts history and solely is used by Dai Nippon Butoku Kai for butoku activities and where martial artists both japanese and from abroad demonstrate to be recognized and graded by this society.

Hi.
As for the use of the dojo nowadays:
I have actually practised in the dojo of Butokuden (the old building next to the Kyoto Budo center) several times. The dojo I regulary visit in Kyoto usually rent one evening a week to get a litter bigger space than their own dojo.

For the Shorinji Kempo 50th anniversary study session (1997) we used both the Budo center and the Butokuden dojo for practice.

So to say that: "solely is used by Dai Nippon Butoku Kai for butoku activities" is not 100% correct.

In -92 I also met some foreigner that rented space there as well for their Karate practice and Aikijutsu.

I have also seen some Kendo shiai in the same dojo.

So the dojo can be used by anoyone who pays the rent, just as for the Budo center.

/Anders

PRehse
17th May 2002, 11:45
Originally posted by Anders Pettersson
[BSo the dojo can be used by anoyone who pays the rent, just as for the Budo center.[/B]
That's my understanding also. I've trained at the Budo centre (Shodokan Aikido has a group there practicing Saturday nights) and must admit I was disappointed that the training was not in the old hall. When I asked if it was restricted to just Kendo (what they were practicing that night) I was told that anyone can rent the place.

Lens
17th May 2002, 11:51
Patrick Mcarthy, nice to meet you, i have one of your books here, Ancient Okinawan Karate, (im not sure i mentioned the proper name) but you know what im talking about, im lazy and dont feel like going down starirs to get it. lol.

Thank you for giving your expertise about the subject.

I guess the butokuden can be used by everyone but its still the main dojo of the butokukai like patrick stated. From what i know patrick has been a valued member of dnbk for a long time so no one knows better then him from this forum on this subject.

Thankyou again on this subject Patrick and looking forward to read more of your books.

Lens
17th May 2002, 12:13
ONE MORE THING. WHEN I STARTED THIS THREAD THE REASON WAS TO GET MY SELF MORE INFORMED BOUT THE SUBJECT.

I NEVER SAID I AM AN EXPERT AND WHAT I SAY IS CORRECT!!

BUT I DONT LIKE WHEN OTHER PEOPLE PUT DOWN OTHERS.

REGARDS TO CHRIS, NO ONE CAN JUDGE ABOUT HOW VALUED ARE THOSE NAMES IN THE ORGANIZATION IF THE PERSON ACTUALY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT. FROM WHAT I READ. THE PRINCE IS ACTUALY THE GOVERNOR AND LEADS THE WHOLE THING AND IS NOT JUST SOMEONE THAT MAKES APEARENCES.

BUT AS I SAD BEFORE IM ONLY NOVICE IN THE SUBJECT AND I MYSELF LIKE MANY OTHERS CANNOT JUDGE THE ORGANIZTION FOR ITS VALUES.

sorry about the caps, i forgot them on. :) and dont fell like writing it al over again... sorry :)

As regards to other organizations both in japan and abroad. everyone has his own good and all have something to offer. I never intended to say ok,butokukai or nothing! But i am very pleased to know that such an organization exists. thats all.

A BIG THANKYOU TO ALL WHO POSTED FOR THE ATTENTION TO MY THREAD AND VIEWS.

Patrick McCarthy
17th May 2002, 13:53
Hi folks,

The Butokuden, that is to say, the old & *original* (restored in 1987 or 88 I believe after it was declared a National Treasure.....possibly because of its Heian period design, erected in 1895) is a public facility. In other words, it can be rented by anyone for various functions. I would, however, be willing to bet that the Dai Nippon (God, I hate that term…*Dai Nippon* …. too reminiscence of Imperialistic Japan) Butokukai has dibs on it every last weekend [old Emperor Hirohito’s birthday] of April thru Golden Week until Children’s (Boy’s) Day; 5 May, every year.

I participated in numerous budo demonstrations there during the many years I resided in Japan and remember it very well. I also remember when the old Busen was torn down to make way for the new sports centre. It is a public sports facility where a plethora of athletic activities take place. The new hall(s) are rented out to a whole host of organizations. The present Butokukai (who rent a small office in the back of the nearby Shoren En), like other ordinary groups, rent the Butokuden to hold various functions. As is custom, with older-based groups looking to lend prestige to their group, the DNBK have a custom of procuring some important namesake as a titular president. When I was part of the group it used to be Higashifushimi, a Buddhist priest and relative of Hirohito's family.

I hope this helps. More info on request.

Patrick McCarthy
DNBK (Kyoto-accredited)Kyoshi

Lens
17th May 2002, 14:50
mmm Patric, you forgot to say His Royal Highness, the budist priest...
Why not Dai Nippon, its clearly Japans premier martial arts society...long history illustrations and high ranking practitioners.

Well everyone has his own opinion. The Shorenin is not rented, it belongs to the governor of DNBK, The prince which also is a buddist priest.... always from the information i got from the Japanese Embasy. I have a pile of written informtion i got from there right besides me and a lot of usefull info too. I have asked a friend to contact them and tell them to take a look at this thread.

I hope i am not causing you trouble Patrick since you are not a member any more (for a reason you have every right to keep personal). But it is better this way so that no one would get any misleading information.

BTW: maybe its late but congratulations for the Kyoshi title...its a real life time honor..... i don't even have a black belt from even a junky school.....:( lol

Don Cunningham
17th May 2002, 18:15
Why not Dai Nippon, its clearly Japans premier martial arts society...long history illustrations and high ranking practitioners.I don't see how it could be considered "Japan's premier martial arts society." The DNBK is not considered much by other organizations, even in Japan. It may have been quite prestigious at one time before WWII, but it is certainly not considered so today. Sorry, Lens, but it just ain't so...

As for their international headquarters in Norfolk, VA, I haven't heard much of anything about them one way or the other. They are certainly not a "premeir" organization here in the U.S.

Patrick McCarthy
18th May 2002, 01:08
Dear Lens

In the name of the Emperor (Hirohito), it was under the banner "Dai Nippon" Teikoku Rikugun" (Imperial Army) that widespread war atrocities and cultural genocide were inflicted. However, it's probably better to ask the surviving Chinese, Korean and SE Asian victims what the term Dai Nippon means to them? My point is simply that this term "Dai Nippon" is reminiscent of Japanese militarism, and fascism and postwar Japanese organizations using the name "Dai Nippon" are insensitive, and disrespectful to those who suffered so severely at the hands of those marching under the "Dai Nippon" banner. Understanding this, wouldn't you agree that something like "Zen Nippon" (All Japan), or even just Nippon (Japan) would be a more appropriate prefix and the right thing to do?

FWIW, the DNBK's claim to fame in martial arts is their pre-war reputation. The post war new group still has a few of its pre-war members but the organization is not well known, even within the Japanese Budo community. To think that it is Japan's premier association of MA's is simply naive, although, I must admit, I too once believed the same thing. I believe that honour presently belongs to the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai.

At any rate, here's a couple of URL's to see more about the role of the Dai Nippon Butokukai in Japanese history and the term "Dai Nippon":
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_abe_0600.htm
http://www.dpg.devry.edu/~akim/sck/kj1.html
http://hope-of-israel.org/japwar.htm
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/leiber/50/bds1.htm


Alternatively, they can be contacted directly c/o Dai Nippon Butokukai, Shoreiinnai, Awataguchi Sanyobucho 69, Higashiyama-ku, Kyoto 605 Japan (075)541-6411

My 2 yen worth

Patrick McCarthy

Chris Li
18th May 2002, 01:16
Originally posted by Patrick McCarthy
FWIW, the DNBK's claim to fame in martial arts is their pre-war reputation. The post war new group still has a few of its pre-war members but the organization is not well known, even within the Japanese Budo community. To think that it is Japan's premier association of MA's is simply naive, although, I must admit, I too once believed the same thing. I believe that honour presently belongs to the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai.

Hmm, that's pretty much what I said too... :)

Best,

Chris

Lens
18th May 2002, 12:24
Patrick, your posts are puzziling me now. They don't seem to match. In one post you say its "White" and on the other you say its "Black".

What makes it premier is the royal authority and the history, they reestablished it on the same principles as pre-war maybe slitly different. Same autority. Pre-war they didint have international members now they are growing all over the world....so this makes them ever more premier.... i have some Martial Arts dictioneryies here and all agree with the term Dai and the authentic authority they claim, which they do have.

Studying your posts again and again it looks like you have or had a little clash with this society

Lens
18th May 2002, 12:28
WELL YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN PAT :rolleyes:

Chris Li
18th May 2002, 13:53
Originally posted by Lens

What makes it premier is the royal authority and the history, they reestablished it on the same principles as pre-war maybe slitly different. Same autority. Pre-war they didint have international members now they are growing all over the world....so this makes them ever more premier.... i have some Martial Arts dictioneryies here and all agree with the term Dai and the authentic authority they claim, which they do have.

"Royal authority" doesn't mean much these days (unless you're in the extreme right wing). Japan is a democracy and the royal family has even less pull than the British royal family.

I don't know what you criteria for "premier" is, but (as I said before) there are several better known martial arts organizations here in Japan - most Japanese martial artists probably aren't even aware that a modern version of the organization exists.

FWIW, "Dai-Nippon" is a fairly common component of a lot of names here (especially company names), whether non-Japanese find it offensive or not.

Best,

Chris

Don Cunningham
18th May 2002, 14:13
Patrick,

Thank you for the information about Dai Nippon. I've sort of used the terms Dai Nippon (Big Japan) and Zen Nippon (All Japan) interchangeably like most of my Japanese friends. I didn't realize that there were historical connotations, especially negative ones.

Lens,

What's wrong with you? You have several people telling you about this organization, but you apparently prefer to retain this fantasy you've created rather than face the facts. Although you have some romantic notions about martial arts organizations, it should be obvious by now that this group doesn't have the status or credability you wish it did.

fifthchamber
18th May 2002, 16:31
Hi all,
Lens- People here have no problem with the DNBK organisation or what they do as regards Budo in Japan today. The simple point made by all posters here is that this organisation is not the one and only, and all inclusive Japanese Budo association that you seem to think it could be.
It had a history and has over time had a few major supporters but the organisation today seems to be perhaps a little less than you imagine. There is (AFAIK) no one major Japanese organisation that controls ALL the arts..Even the Koryu arts have more than one linked group they can affiliate with. This does not detract from the DNBK...They are doing a job in promoting the arts abroad and in Japan. (Although from the responses here they my not be 'loud' enough perhaps..:( ) However the points that you seem to be driving toward are that it IS the "premier" and overall best organisation for Budo in Japan. What seems to be the general consensus here is that it isn't. It is one of several groups promoting Japanese MA worldwide and that is all...It's use of members of the Royal house in promotion is great...It gets a lot more publicity through this method than otherwise but it does not mean that it is the biggest,best, or even a major contender in the many groups out there...(Trust me here..Queen Elizabeth of England is a name on "Royal Mail" but the company is NO BETTER OFF for that fact...).
No one here is putting anyone else down...We are simply putting across our own views on the group in answer to your question...The question has been answered I think...Depends on your reading of it.
Abayo

Lens
18th May 2002, 18:36
Dear Dear Don, both your posts are very childish indeed.

Clearly your brain can only reach out till your nose.

What is it Don? are you not recognized by DNBK? Isin't your group big enough to compete with DNBK? or you don't have the same authority of DNBK members?

IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST, PLEASE POST SOME USE FULL POST AND NOT EMPTY AND CHILDISH REMARKS.

i NEVER SAID ITS THE ONLY GOOD JAPANESE SOCIETY BUT CLEARLY IT IS PREMIER.

Regards to fame, what does fame have to od with authority?
Even so its almost in every martial arts dictionery and you say its not famous enough!!!

Dear Dear Me.

I really would apriciate it if someone with DNBK authority would give his views and not people who don't know a thing about DNBK or even worse have only their own interests to safeguard.

PLEASE

Patrick McCarthy
18th May 2002, 21:55
Pal,

Your sarcasm is duly noted, as is your ignorance. Why don't you move along now.

PM

Robert Carver
19th May 2002, 02:28
but now using another name.

Gentlemen, this person "Lens" has made his mark elsewhere with these same kinda posts. We went through this with him over at BudoSeek! in the following three threads (also in the Jujutsu forum):

Jujutsu in Japan (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232&highlight=DNBK)

REAL BUDO STATEMENT (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211&highlight=DNBK) (which was heavily edited because he became a major jerk there)

Competition and Jujutsu (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207&highlight=DNBK)

At the time he was posting on BudoSeek!, he was going by the name "Cosco". He claimed his name was Dave, but at the same time, his email address was debono_john@hotmail.com, so who knows who he really is. What is for certain is that he has an almost cultlike devotion to his organization, despite the very same points being made. Also, if you note the same use of caps and grammar.

Clearly, this Lens/Cosco/Dave/John is a troll that believes that he and those in his organization are somehow superior, and all others that practice Budo are of a lower class. If you really want some proof, go to here (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=448&perpage=20&pagenumber=5) for his enlighted opinion of Ninjutsu.

I am on to you Dave! :smash:

Patrick McCarthy
19th May 2002, 02:53
Dear Robert,

Thank you for your post, it really helps explains this kuchibushi's *behaviour*.

Patrick




Originally posted by Robert Carver
but now using another name.

Gentlemen, this person "Lens" has made his mark elsewhere with these same kinda posts. We went through this with him over at BudoSeek! in the following three threads (also in the Jujutsu forum):

Jujutsu in Japan (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232&highlight=DNBK)

REAL BUDO STATEMENT (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211&highlight=DNBK) (which was heavily edited because he became a major jerk there)

Competition and Jujutsu (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207&highlight=DNBK)

At the time he was posting on BudoSeek!, he was going by the name "Cosco". He claimed his name was Dave, but at the same time, his email address was debono_john@hotmail.com, so who knows who he really is. What is for certain is that he has an almost cultlike devotion to his organization, despite the very same points being made. Also, if you note the same use of caps and grammar.

Clearly, this Lens/Cosco/Dave/John is a troll that believes that he and those in his organization are somehow superior, and all others that practice Budo are of a lower class. If you really want some proof, go to here (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=448&perpage=20&pagenumber=5) for his enlighted opinion of Ninjutsu.

I am on to you Dave! :smash:

Lens
19th May 2002, 10:48
why do you always jump to conclusion? I never had anything to do with any japanese groups. Contact them your self and ask them.

Il make it a point that il never start a tread my self or even never post again. that way i will never be judged by people whod dont kno me at all.

Dont worry i excuse you... humanity has always been like this.

THIS IS MY LAST POST HERE.

I WOULD REALY APRECIATE IT IF AN AUTHORITY OF DNBK WOULD POST HIS VIEWS THAT IS ALL I AM SEEKING HERE AND NOT PEOPLE WHO DONT KNOW A THING!

MY FINAL POST.

YOUR FRIEND
LENS

Yamantaka
19th May 2002, 13:01
Originally posted by Lens
THIS IS MY LAST POST HERE.
MY FINAL POST.
LENS

YAMANTAKA : Thank God!:D

Don Cunningham
19th May 2002, 18:06
Lens,

Some people are so dense and don't have the sense that God gave a goose. I am apparently wasting my time trying to explain the ways of the world to you. You've already made up your mind. So why bother asking?

Lens
19th May 2002, 18:07
I think this explains the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai of today:


Still a Vibrant Force
Thought to have vanished altogether, the Dai Nippon Butokukai was privately funded and reorganized in 1953 under the direction of the nucleus of its pre-war membership. Higashifushimi, a member of the Showa emperor's immediate family, served as patron; and Ono Kumao, a prominent Hokkiryu swordsman, became Butokukai director. Located quite close to its original site, the Dai Nippon Butokukai honbu received permission to use the Shoren Temple in Kyoto's Higashi Yamaku, Awahta Guchi, where it remains to this day.

I dont know why im bodering about protecting DNBK, i guess its because i started all this which i feel sorry about. Without knowing exectly why, i feel sorry.

It does seem to be a powerfull and good organization still.

I made a promise not to write anymore and i will keep it STARTING NOW. From now on i will just read so i dont cause trouble anymore :)

Sorry for the trouble.

Robert Carver
19th May 2002, 18:27
Originally posted by Lens
It does seem to be a powerfull and good organization still.


:D In fact, they are so powerful and good that they don't seem to have the funds to get a real web host for their web site. Has anyone noticed that the link, http://www.dainipponbutokukai.org goes to http://personal.picusnet.com/butoku/ which is a persons free web space at their internet service providers account?

You would think that an all powerful and prestigious organization, and one endorsed by the royal family, could cough up $100 (or less)per year for a real web hosting service.

Lens
27th May 2002, 16:51
sorry i had to post again. I couldent resist. The DNBK site has changed and there is a new page in the website called EVENTS. There is a report on the seminar they had in Japan. There is a photo of a group in front of a building, is that the butokuden? Looks like a beautifull hall. I have been interested in buildings for a long time and have a whole collection of old buildings post cards. Hell i cant copy the photo! Does anybody know from where i could get a photo of the butokuden?

Lens
27th May 2002, 16:55
hope i dont get replies like "go to japan and teke the photo your self"!!!!

TRULY MY LAST POST (TRULY FINAL) :D
LOVE AND PEACE
LENS

Anders Pettersson
27th May 2002, 18:07
Originally posted by Lens
The DNBK site has changed and there is a new page in the website called EVENTS. There is a report on the seminar they had in Japan. There is a photo of a group in front of a building, is that the butokuden?
A little difficult to say with all the people in front of it, but it surely looks like the Butokuden.

Here is the image that apears on that page:

http://personal.picusnet.com/butoku/images/international_group_out.jpg

/Anders

MarkF
28th May 2002, 08:05
Hi, Patrick,
My understanding of ramnized Japanese is elementary at best, but "kuchibushi" didn't get by me. Ahh, maybe I should do something instead of judo.

The Original DNBK had one meeting post-war to see if it, and themselves still existed along with the organization. They didn't and it didn't. It was absobed by the Kodokan and the members were reorganized into the Japanese Judo Federation.

Patrick all ready posted my links so I doubt there is little more to say on this subject. What is copyrighted to day as the DNBK is little more than a rank-selling organization. In fact, they ALL sell rank, but some actually come out with good knowledge of one's chosen budo but some do come out as "kuchibushi."

Sorry, I couldn't resist, either.


Mark

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You may not live long enough to make them all yourself." -Jigoro Kano

Lens
28th May 2002, 09:06
Dear MarkF,

Is that what the Kodokan people say? Since i am currently doing some research on Kodokan myself, i say yes, that is what the kodokan say....that the DNBK people where reorganized to the Japan Judo Federation. THINK WISE.

The correct info is: some of the Judo people reorganized into the Japan Judo Federation but the iaido, jujitsu, kendo, aikido, aikijutsu, jodo, kobudojutsu, kenjutsu, sojutsu bla bla bla, i dont think they whent to do Judo, do you?

Some of them may have whent to other organizations but still some of them reorganized into modern DNBK. If you read the EVENT page well you will notice that 2 of them are 81 years old which most probably are 2 such people that reorganized DNBK. and most probably there are more of them. All the Hanshi listed are probably old because to get a hanshi you must be 8th dan and to be 8th dan you probably must be over 60 at least. Im not that familiar with titles but i used some comon sense.

Its hard not to post in here when you get all sorts of replies. and when most of them are childish.

I mean come on, saying that DNBK members whent to Judo! when there where karate, jujitsu, and so on people probably more then there were Judo people is clearly very childish indeed.

Ok, i will try not to post. But please try to post some reasonable posts. The best thing to do so that i wont post again is to ignore the childish posts and that way i wont have any more reasons to post.

ANDERS, THANKS FOR THE PIC.

By the way MARK, since you do Judo, you might help me with this one. How old was Jigaro Kano when he created Judo? Tahnks in advance. If you have some good sites for me to find Judo info i would highly apreciate it.

Please people stop bashing DNBK. Admit you know nothing about it.

Your friend
lens

Amir
28th May 2002, 10:22
My teacher was there

As I have already posted, my teacher was in this last event, he has returned recently, and had time to give some impressions.
Just for information, he has associated our club with the DNPK last year after going to the event they held in England. He teaches Judo (6th dan), Korindo Aikido (6th dan) and Karate (5th dan, a combination of Shotokan and Shitoryu – he started learning the former and moved on to the latter afterwards).

He said the event was most amazing and that the DNPK has members of the highest levels in most M.A. The Japanese members shows were mostly Koryu Budo while the almost all of the ‘foreigners ‘ shows were of Gendai Budo.
As for the position of the DNPK, it is clear the DNPK does not hold the same station it held before WWII. Further, he implied the Judo practitioners did not demonstrate the highest level, but according to him, in other M.A. it seems the DNPK has reserved quite a bit of its prestige, and the level of the practitioner’s demonstrations was most impressive. So, I guess it is more a matter of perception.

According to his understanding, the organizations main purpose is to promote Budo and Bujitsu (Japanese M.A.) through the conduction of seminars and meetings, assisting Budo-ka to intermingle and learn from one another through a professional framework.
The DNPK frame helped him reorganize a group of several other Judo teachers to conduct bi-monthly meetings and exchange knowledge, a thing long forgotten in the ‘national Judo federation’ in my country (I must rely upon my teacher for this information – I learn Korindo Aikido from him, not Judo). Further, through the DNPK organization, he hopes to bring some other teachers from different systems to conduct seminars in our Dojo.

He further claimed he found the DNPK approach to Ranks granting rather serious and professional, when compared with most other organizations. Some of which are filled with “personal-politics” which contaminate the professional approach.

Personally, I believe any affiliation with an international organization can be used for the best, especially when the organization appears to be populated by serious M.A.-ists. It is what you make of it.
I couldn’t care less whether the DNPK is the foremost organization in the world, or just one of many. As long as it’s members are serious and dedicated practitioners of their M.A. Willing to share some knowledge. I would consider it an element of positive influence on the M.A. world, which seems to be filled with lots of “BAD BUDU” (spelling intentionally wrong ;) )

Amir

PRehse
28th May 2002, 10:42
Originally posted by Lens
Dear MarkF,

Is that what the Kodokan people say? Since i am currently doing some research on Kodokan myself,

Awful lot of study - what gives.

MarkF
29th May 2002, 08:33
Kuchibushi,
I thought you weren't going to post here anymore, but as you have, here is more 'official' description, and a short one, on the Dai *NIHON* Butokukai and why the current conglomeration of backslappers don't have but one link and that one is incorrect (the name).

The Great Japan Hall of Martial Arts Virtue (Dai Nihon Butokukai) is established at Kyoto. The timing commemorated the (legendary) 2000th anniversary of the founding of Kyoto, and organizational leaders included Prince Akihito, the governor of Kyoto (Watanabe Chiaki), a Shinto bishop, and the head of the Kyoto Chamber of Commerce. Following the Russo-Japanese War, the Butokukai started its own martial art school, the Bujutsu Senmon Gakko. This school was registered with the Ministry of Education in September 1911 and became a full-fledged college in January 1912. In March 1942 the Japanese government formally absorbed the Butokukai, and then divided its functions between the Ministry of Public Welfare, the Ministry of Education, and the military. Wartime leaders included Prime Minister Tojo Hideki and the occasional yakuza boss, and under their control the martial arts quickly changed from judo, kendo, and archery to military activities such as glider repair, grenade throwing, and bayonet fighting. Although the Butokukai reverted to a martial arts organization in August 1945, there remained significant confusion and misunderstanding. Therefore the national headquarters of the Butokukai voluntarily disbanded in September 1946 and the last regional branch disbanded by government decree in November 1946.


http://ejmas.com/kronos/NewHist1860-1899.htm

When Kodokan-ryu was founded, Prof. Kano was twenty-two years old. He was the first academic to study the technique of the jujutsu ryu, took them apart, refined them, added tsukuri/kuzushi which was largely absent from the jujutsu ryuha of the day, and gave the world the combative activity it clamored for, with the realistic view that any sort of combat in his day was symbolic at best, thus Judo, the path to the art of yielding.
*****

You know, Lens, you could have found this information in just a bit longer than I did but I knew where it was. If you are going to truly research the Kodokan, get yourself to the libraries and archives and spend some time reading micro-fiche. That's what the person largely responsible for the above website did, but I never claimed to be doing "research" just going on a search. After all, the fun is IN the search, not in the findings, as if you have half the interest I have, you would be doing so.

At any rate, it takes little to troll for trouble, but it takes a lot of work to find the truth.

MarkF
29th May 2002, 08:41
BTW: The Butokukai was, as a martial arts school (which was not the original reason it was established, that came a little later), a judo and kendo school. While teachers of other arts did come and give demonstrations, and a few stayed, it mostly held festivals where people, specialists in many arts, convened.

One such person was Prof. Kano who found an excellent jo specialist whom he asked to come to the Kodokan to teach. He did, for a while.

Buildings are nice.

Lens
29th May 2002, 09:36
Thanks MarkF for the Judo info.

But i must correct you in some things.

It is not some People stayed! because at that time Butokukai was the governing body for martial arts in Japan and it was a must (not the same today) to be certified by ButokuKai.

I belive that the only difference between Butokukai pre-war and Butokukai post-war, is that, pre-war it was a must to be recognized by it and now its not a must and only those who what to join.

With all due respect, some of your info is wrong Mark. I have managed to get an old photo of Jujitsu masters of that time there are about 20 of them including Takeuchi Ryu discendent and Jigaro and many others who where all certified by Butokukai.

There are many websites giving all sorts of information, but the correct info you allways get from the center of it all. Meaning, about Dai Nippon Butoku Kai i went to the local Japanese embasy.

I don't trusth books and websites much, one says one thing and the other says another. Which one is which???

From my conclusions they are very much genuine organization like some others and unlike many others. What ever you do in life you will always find bashers that look for the little wrong details to bash you with instead of looking at their own big wrong details.

Like our lord Jesus says: "Before you clean your friends eye form a little dirt, take off the stone from your eye".

Butokukai members and all other geniune Martial Arts Societies, keep going no matter how hard the ungenuine ones try to stop you.

Thanks again MarkF for the Judo info.
Best of Luck and peace and love, God bless you all, (including the ones i dont agree with)

Lens
29th May 2002, 09:40
Well, if the whole world would agree on everything then it would be a monotonus life, wouldent it? :cool:

That is why its nice to have friends you dont agree with.

Love in Budo

Don Cunningham
29th May 2002, 14:33
It is not some People stayed! because at that time Butokukai was the governing body for martial arts in Japan and it was a must (not the same today) to be certified by ButokuKai.
Huh? Where do you get these ideas?

Please stop posting your personal views as if they were facts. There may have been many martial arts instructors who were members of the Butokukai, but I doubt it was ever a "must" that they be certified by this or any other organization.

Do you have some reason for rewriting history to comply with your personal bias?

Mike Williams
29th May 2002, 15:01
Originally posted by Don Cunningham

Do you have some reason for rewriting history to comply with your personal bias?

Exactly what I was wondering.

And Lens, what's the point of posting a topic for discussion if you already have immoveable opinions about it (and have seemingly already researched it to death)?
And why troll about such an obscure subject to begin with? Do you really think anybody cares about your opinions of the Butokukai? Are you its membership secretary or something?

I have to say Lens, you're one of the most sophisticated trolls I've ever come across (I particularly like the way you 'back out' of discussions in an apparently conciliatory and friendly way, only to appear a short while later guns-a-blazin' ;) ). But you're a troll nonetheless.

Cheers,

Mike

fifthchamber
29th May 2002, 16:49
Hi all,
What exactly was the original purpose of asking your first question on this thread Lens? It seems as though you have/had already decided exactly what the 'truth' was and so asking us for opinions on it was never going to be satisfactory to you.
Whats the point? Whether the organisation is 100% legit or not has most certainly not been proven by your rewriting of its history.
What myself, Don, Mark, et al have been trying to point out to you is that there IS another point of view from your own on this issue. Whether you really care about the help we have given is a whole other issue.
If your intention is to promote your own views on history and this group then please do so. BUT to ask a question on a forum like this one and not expect other opinions is idiotic.
As Mike has said a great display of Troll-like behaviour, you don't have to accept all that we say but if you dispute it please prove the point with fact. NOT with your own opinions..It clouds the whole issue as Don pointed out.
You asked us for our views. We offered them. You don't like them and keep going over the same tired ground...Please stop. You damage your reputation and make no headway in your promotion of the DNBK...
Abayo

Lens
29th May 2002, 17:02
Don, Facts are allways Facts.

When i started this thread i new nothing about DNBK but since then i have done my own research about the subject and the information i got is from people who know what they are talking about.

Since i am currently not in Martial Arts training anymore and still love Martial Arts i am dedicating my time searching on Martial Arts history and historical groups like old school and Systems and also Asian History and Traditions.

(a week ago i whent to my doctor to get advise about if i should start martial arts again or not because of a knee i broke and is still defective and also have a missing disk in my spine, and to my disapointment the doctor said i shouldent even have considered any phisical activity... he recomanded Yoga!!!)

It would take me a hole week to write here what i learned about DNBK.
and to my conclusions, yes DNBK is genuine in what they say they are and their history and yes it was the governing body of Martial Arts in Japan by the Imperial order and it was a must to be certified by them. DNBK today still maintain the Imperial Authority as the leader him self is a member of the Imperial household. This is a tradition of DNBK started by Meiji Emperor, and the tradition that a Member of the Imperial family must be the governor of DNBK is still being kept to this very day. These are facts and not my personal opinnion. This information i got from the Local Japanese Embasy and also from Martial Arts Dictioneries and other sources. How do you expect me to belive some of you, when you know nothing about the subject against these sources?

I actualy don't know why you are against this? Why you neglect history? What is it? are you somewhat scared that this group is actualy very good? even better than yours? I cant understand you, what did this group do to you?
Why then write every kind of misleading information to bash them up?

yes, DNBK is what it is. Whats the problem?

Mike, whats wrong with being friendly.

I am realy trying not to post but sometimes i dont belive the replies i get and i would have to butt in again. So if you dont whant me to post then dont post and i will not have any reasons to post again. The best way is to let this thread drop because this is turning out in a never ending story.

(trying from now not to post anymore, im fed up with all this. Im getting all kinds of acusations and unreasonable remarks).
Not everyone is like this, some of you have been very respectable and friendly. Thank you.

Love and God Bless to All.
Lens

Don Cunningham
29th May 2002, 17:28
Once again I am amazed by the willingness of some martial arts proponents to suspend common sense and to believe outrageous conjecture rather than the plain facts. [Sigh] :(

Neil Hawkins
30th May 2002, 01:58
This has been an interesting thread with some very good historical information, but I fear it is degenerating and little more of use will come out of it. For that reason I'm going to close it down.

For the record I agree with the consensus , the Dai Nippon Butokukai was once a prestigious organisation and did much for the expansion of karate and judo. Today it still has prestige but it is one of many such organisations.

I don't believe anyone here was denigrating the organisation or its members and am a little confused as to why Lens thought that was the case. Perhaps it is a problem of language, I assume that Lens is a native French speaker.

Anyway, I thank all (especially Joe and Patrick) for their input.

The end...

Regards

Neil