PDA

View Full Version : Karate Chops



the Khazar Kid
26th May 2002, 00:03
I have heard that the best directions for this blow are downward or backhand, forehand is not as good? Is this true, and why?

Jesse Peters

gmanry
26th May 2002, 00:32
A shuto that comes from outside to in is a very powerful blow. The problem is that many people never learn it properly and wind up injuring their elbow or shoulder due to improper body alignment, incorrect dynamics, and an excess or arm power vs. body power.

The omote shuto can very easily KO somebody, dislocate a jaw or fracture/disclocate a vertebrae in the neck, or kill if directed to the temple. Much of modern karate, but not all, have lost touch with this strike, reserving it for kata, board breaking or very poorly understood self-defense demos.

The real problem is that many students are taught to slavishly stick to the basic drill taught at white belt, never understanding that such a maneuver is equivalent to the training wheels on a bicycle at best. A real shuto is not delivered like that at all. This is true of much of karate today and is why so many karateka are so ineffective, IMNSHO.

the Khazar Kid
26th May 2002, 05:09
I wonder why Fairbairn ( www.gutterfighting.org/axhand.html ) only recommended the downward and backhand versions, and why Smith ( www.ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_cptsmith_0800.htm )says it "is always a backhand blow"? On the other hand, I can throw apparently powerful forehand chops into posts or heavy bags using basically the same body mechanics as a boxer's hook.

Jesse Peters

gmanry
26th May 2002, 17:28
Looking at the first link, it is interesting to note that the inside to outside shuto has alignment from wrist, to elbow, to shoulder. This is the most important key to shuto.

Most people who throw the omote or outside to inside shuto pull their hand back and let the elbow wing out, resulting in a reliance of shoulder strength and increasing shoulder sheer (very bad).

Try executing your outside shuto by starting with the hand in front of your forehead and don't let your elbow drift beyond your shoulder line. Most schools advocate pulling the hand back to the ear or behind the head, creating misalignment and too large a circle.

Deliver the blow mainly from a turning of the waste. In fact it should be body movement and waste turn that delivers the hand to the target. Then the arm and the rear leg reinforce the blow through the target. A majority of the shuto I see deliver with the arm first, this is incorrect. Let the hand and forearm loop around in a small loose circle and land at the target at the point where the skeleton is aligned through the arm back to the rear leg. Then the arm applies its power at impact.

Also, do not tense the hand too much, this is just not necessary. In fact you can deliver a better shuto with a fairly relaxed hand with practice. Against the makiwara, more tension may be necessary if the makiwara is too hard (which is an indication of a bad makiwara).

Another issue with the makiwara is that a standard makiwara is a poor tool for outside shuto. You have to adjust your angle relative to the makiwara so that you eliminate elbow and shoulder sheer. Playing with wrist angle can help to eliminat this sheer. Shuto can break bones, but it is also highly effective on soft targets like the neck.

The strength of shuto is not purely impact force, but is more dependent on penetration and displacement (through distance and alignment) combined with sufficient force and velocity (muscular force and relaxation/tension). Too much emphasis on strength in modern karate has made for very strong but shallow strikes which are just not effective on experienced fighters.

If you are landing your shuto like a hook, be careful of the shoulder sheer. If you are allowing your body to remain behind the shoulder and elbow by pivoting or movement, then you will reduce the risk of injury.

Jeff Cook
26th May 2002, 22:58
I would also add the tegatana (sword hand) to the aforementioned group of "karate chops." The tegatana is another often-overlooked and poorly understood technique.

The tegatana, properly employed with a shuto-formed hand but in a cutting action, is a devestating technique against soft-tissue targets. It rips and rolls underlying muscle. With the addition of a popping-impact action of a shuto, and followed up with the cutting action, it becomes a very versatile weapon without the need for large chambering or excessive distance to employ effectively. The addition of the cutting action also helps in those situations when hip involvement is not possible (due to very close range or other factors).

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Markaso
27th May 2002, 05:14
Mr. Manry -

You have broght up some good points about Shuto.I would also like to mention that the Kihon(basic) Shutoand the oyo(practical) is a lot different. In my Dojo the behind the ear is taught for basics and level/target practice only. After that the Oyo is more commonly practiced. They are a bit different especilly in the body motion.

gmanry
27th May 2002, 05:58
Mr. Cook,

Shuto or tegatana strikes can be effective blades indeed. Wasn't it Funakoshi who remarked that one should treat their hands as blades or swords? Dull impacts are really pretty primitive striking methods. A well executed shuto is definitely nasty in many ways. We did not make a distinction between the two actions, only seeing them as a continuum, henka, of the same thing. Tomato/Potato...:p

Slashing with the shuto can be quite effective. I did however, stop snapping my shuto so much. I feel this can be way overdone, stunting the penetration and displacement, but there is still some snap in it, it is more whippy than most people I see.

Mr. Posselius, I agree, kihon is for teaching students how to control their limbs in a fashion that is relative to the finished product in more advanced training. My problem is that much of karate never gets to the latter part. I can't recount all the people I meet who do not use shuto in their karate outside of kihon, because they were never taught to do so. It is a shame, it is a much more effective strike and safer for the hand than the punches that are so often substituted. Kihon becomes religious dogma, and eventually the reality is forgotten. I am glad to hear that your school gets to the actual technique. In my opinion formal kihon should be all but abandoned after about 5th kyu. If they don't have it by then, the instructor has not done their part, nor has the student.

I remember when I used ura (not omote) shuto on a tournament opponent who insisted on catching my leg AFTER I had landed the controlled blow (didn't want to break the poor fellow). So I nailed him in the side of the neck with a good stiff arm shuto, and started to hook under his arm to throw him. He dropped my leg, a little stunned, hit him right on the back tendons of the neck near GV20 (just for reference). The judges did not know what to do. "Can he do that?" Uh, this is a KARATE tournament is it not? Sad...not that tournaments have much to do with combative karate, but still sad. I did get the point in the end. :D

In the long run, shuto should be natural and done without thought, no windup, no preparation, like all techniques. Now that I practice Bujinkan, my shuto has changed somewhat. Many (not all) karateka would call it heresy, but it taught me even more about shuto as a weapon of scary proportions. New perspectives lead to new insights.

Cheers

Rogier
27th May 2002, 09:36
from the side aimed at the neck and the temple are very effective indeed.


never understanding that such a maneuver is equivalent to the training wheels on a bicycle at best. A real shuto is not delivered like that at all.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say could you please elaborate... (is that correct spelling??)



We also learn a forward shuto (almost like a punch) that's aimed at the collarbone and should break it, does any have experience with actually using this one?

And what about the shuto as defense, I've used it in competition and kumite kata and it works quite well.

gmanry
27th May 2002, 18:06
Kihon in karate are like training wheels on a bicycle. For beginners they force them to do movements that are largely alien to them. The movements are largely oversized, body movement is generally static, keeping shoulders rigidly square, overemphasizing hip action, etc. This is good for the novice to a degree, in that it forces them to eliminate pitching themselves off balance etc. Unfortunately, such technique is largely ineffective on several levels. It is a drill, not combative. This is the same in kata as well.

The problem is that I often see ni dan, and above still doing their shuto this way. The technique has not been allowed to become natural or a part of their body. In an unrelated story, I had a black belt once tell me that my shoulders moved a little while I was doing Naifanchi. Well, I should hope that they did! The question is did they move naturally with my body?

So, many karateka never take off the training wheels. They are either afraid to, because their instructors force them to conform to a beginners form, or because they have not gone home and done their homework to learn about their own bodies. Either way it is a shame.
As I said, basic form Kihon should be largely left behind after 5th kyu and stepped up to more natural and realistic movement forms to begin opening the student up to the realities of applying technique.

Goju Man
27th May 2002, 20:43
So, many karateka never take off the training wheels. They are either afraid to, because their instructors force them to conform to a beginners form, or because they have not gone home and done their homework to learn about their own bodies. Either way it is a shame.
Glenn, you have a good point. But that point goes even further sometimes. People are confined to a "style" or "system". The old "we don't do it that way" syndrome. A lot of people don't do certain supplementary exercises because it belongs to another ryu. Even when that technique or training method has been proven to work. Many practitioners fall victim to this way of thinking and ultimatley holds the karateka back.

As I said, basic form Kihon should be largely left behind after 5th kyu and stepped up to more natural and realistic movement forms to begin opening the student up to the realities of applying technique.
Very much agreed.

Budoka 34
27th May 2002, 23:07
I agree that Shuto can be a powerful weapon!
I feel most open hand techniques are neglected due to the rise of sport karate, but that is another story.
In my first school we employed it(shuto) as a direct attack weapon, striking jaw, collar bone, temple, etc. Where I study now, it is used in both attack and defense.
I have been amazed at how effective shuto can be at defelecting/disabling an attack. Thru proper targeting you can effectivly neutralize even a dedicated attack leaving your opponent stunned and waiting for your follow ups.

Great stuff guys, keep up the good work!
:smilejapa

Zoyashi
30th May 2002, 18:44
Has anyone here ever landed a good shuto in jiyu-kumite? It doesn't happen often. I don't find them to be as effective as normal strikes. They use the same mechanics as a hook, but can't "Hook" around a blocking arm in the same way, and take too long to through. I prefer palm strikes and short backhand strikes to big, swinging shuto. IMHO, the famed karate chop relied mainly on surprize and conditioning for it's effectiveness. It's preceisely because it's novel that it became notorious and exotic. A bit like flying spinning back kicks.

Josh Gepner

Goju Man
30th May 2002, 21:38
I haven't seen them much either. Although they have similar swing patterns as a hook, the position of the striking hand is very different. A haito uchi (ridge hand) probably more closely resembles a hook punch.

Ron Rompen
30th May 2002, 21:40
The ONLY time I've managed to land a shuto of any kind was in my second tournament. I got VERY lucky, anticipated my opponent perfectly, sidestepped on the forward-right angle as he attempted a spinning kick, and was in exactly the right position to execute a shuto to the back of his neck.

(Unfortunately, he beat me 5-2 in that round anyway, but it was a GREAT feeling when I made that point!)


Other than that, I don't really see using a shuto that much. Although I agree with a lot of the statements made here regarding the power of the strike, I find that with my speed of delivery (picture a snail on valium) there is just too much opportunity for an opponent to block. I rely more on either a palm strike or just a plain old reverse punch :)

gmanry
30th May 2002, 23:24
Well, the problem with tournaments is that everyone is afraid of being "scored on." Even in contact tournaments, a crappy blow can win a point or the notice of the judges. What you get is a lot of garbage separated by a few good techniques, and only a few techniques are really allowed. Two people anxiously circling around pecking at each other. This is not what karate is about at its heart. Not that tournaments can't be useful, but perspective is necessary.

If we go back to the basic kihon for shuto, even this can be effective in a tournament. The wind up is in fact a block with the back of the hand. The hand across the body is a check and control/suppression, and then when the opponent is taken off balance, the shuto is landed. Bruce Lee was famous for this with his backfist, and I have used it more than a few times in sparring. Make the shuto more effective by delivering it with the twist of the body and not the swing of the arm, then its trajectory is deceptive, and it hits harder and penetrates more, affecting balance.

Also, I think that a blocking arm is a gift from God. In tournaments, however you are prevented from taking advantage of such a situation, back to two nervous turkeys pecking away. Shuto to the right place can bring that arm down, as can a punch or a well "misplaced" kick.

Of course grabbing and controlling are not allowed in a majority of tournaments, including an increasing number of Kyokushin and Enshin type events. So, all you can do is poke and thrust at a moving target.

In TKD (wtf) it is even worse, punches don't even count, even if you were to knock someone down. You might as well put a post out in the middle of the ring and whoever kicks it the most wins.

True controlling sabaki is experiencing a slow death, this is the heart of karate technique, position first, strike second...and this is essential for understanding strikes like shuto uchi.

I am not saying that this stuff is easy, and that is why you rarely see it. Fighting is ugly, and tournaments are supposed to be exciting and lively for the spectators. Thus there are severe limitations on the weaponry encouraged and allowed.

Budoka 34
31st May 2002, 12:26
Glenn:
I agree, well stated. While some controlling and even throws are now permited in WKF comps they still do not allow any open hand stricks of attacks to the opponents arms or legs.

the Khazar Kid
5th June 2002, 23:37
Great thread! The edge-of-hand was considered the best hand formation by Fairbairn, Rex Applegate, Bruce Tegner and many other martial artists. Warren Siciliano even developed his own subsystem, sometimes called "Karado", in which edge-of-hands are used from the crossed guard (as in this picture) for all attacks and counterattacks:

www.kishindo.net/history/Siciliano.htm

Jesse Peters

the Khazar Kid
13th July 2002, 18:47
What is your favorite hand formation for the chop? The classic cupped-hand chop? The chop with the edge of a straight hand, almost like a ridgehand or spearhand? With the L-shaped hand favored by Fairbairn? Or even perhaps the soft "Aiki" chop on which a new thread has been started in the Aikijutsu forum?

Also, how is the "Tegatana" performed differently from the "Shuto"? I would like to know if this is something I already practice under a different name or something new to add to my arsenal?

Jesse Peters

Tatsu
17th July 2002, 00:56
The mechanics of Shuto Uchi vary even amongst ryuha of the major systems. In Shorinkan and Matsubayashi Ryu, the forward hand is brought to the ear and delivered in a backhand fashion. The rear hand is brought behind the head and sweeps forward, stopping in a scooping motion at the front hands forearm. This is of course the outside to inside shuto.

In Matsumura Orthodox Shorin, the rear hand is used as a block/grab and resembles a Nukite. The forward hand is brought straight up from the wrist, and power is generated by utilizing gravity. The wasted motion of bringing your hand back to your ear or temple is omitted. bending your knees slightly with execution of the strike adds body weight to the equation.

Both methods have their uses, but the latter one seems to generate more power with economy of motion. Since it is closer to the target, speed and striking distance is maximized also. Just some thoughts. great posts guys. Go ahead Manny shoot me down again, hahaha.

Tatsu
17th July 2002, 01:05
One more thing: the rear hand in the Matsumura strike stops in front of the solar plexus (about a fist away) at a 45 degree angle. Instead of the palm facing up the hand is vertical (at 45 degrees, not 90). Sensei Lindsey will often demonstrate how structural ki is enhanced with this simple adjustment.

When striking with the shuto do you guys use the wrist bone (ulna side) or the pinky bone of the hand? Just wondering. This block/strike done with little protagonistic muscle action (relaxed power) can serve as a very good "cutting" down and through strike. Also the thumb against the hand actually inactivates the stability of the digits. Making a "check mark" with the thumb somehow enhances the strength of the hand and the slightly protruding thumb can be used to follow through with a thumb strike or gouge, if wanted/needed. Just some Matsumura "secrets" that I shouldn't be talking about, but oh well, hehehe. Later and sorry so lengthy...

the Khazar Kid
18th July 2002, 00:19
Not necessarily "secrets". The thumb-up or L-shaped chop was Fairbairn's favorite technique! Also if you use this chop as a counterattack against strikes you could grab the opponents limb between thumb and fingers after hitting.

Jesse Peters

Goju Man
18th July 2002, 23:13
Go ahead Manny shoot me down again, hahaha.
Bryan, I'm not going to rip you. We've had aor rounds. Is the shuto effective? In my opinion it is. The problem is landing it. Every technique is great in theory and under ideal circumstances. (which they are usually taght under) There is too much wasted motion, the strike has to come from a wide trajectory, making it slower. But hey, if you want to train it, cool. If that technique was so great, you would see it used everywhere, which you don't. Even in traditional tournaments, it is seldom used, if ever. It's not used in vale tudo, nhb, or any other no holds barred arena. Even in forty years of seeing street fights, knowing many who have had them, Police officers, etc., haven't been used. And these guys are all martial artists. You'll never know until you go out on the street and give it a whirl.;)

Tatsu
23rd July 2002, 23:30
Originally posted by Goju Man

You'll never know until you go out on the street and give it a whirl.;)

Yesterday I walked around the mall and randomly "Judo-Chopped" dudes on the neck!! It definitley had some effect, hahaha! On the serious tip; I have never seen a shuto used in a one-on-one street fighting situation. So I can see how you would question its efficacy on the street. Then again, I've never seen an armbar performed in a street fight.

One cat can definitely use it effectively, but since he's a man of mystery, Mr. Powers is hard to reach!!! Yeah, babyyy!!!

Goju Man
24th July 2002, 00:20
Oh behave!

:D
Actually, I have seen armbars and chokes used in street confrontations. Knees, elbows, and a certain degree of kicks but no chops. (pork or otherwise):D Even the bad ash karate men when I was a kid didn't use them to my knoledge. I did hear many stories about punching, kicking, chokes, arm and wrist locks. I even witnessed some of them. I did see a haito once and was effective. (although the guy had to wear a cast after that) I wonder who got the better of that one.:rolleyes: But hey, if it works for you, go for it.

tenchijin2
24th July 2002, 00:53
Originally posted by gmanry


Try executing your outside shuto by starting with the hand in front of your forehead and don't let your elbow drift beyond your shoulder line. Most schools advocate pulling the hand back to the ear or behind the head, creating misalignment and too large a circle.



Greetings,

I'm having trouble understanding this. Perhaps you can clarify.

If I'm striking with omote shuto uchi, are you suggesting that the elbow will *lead*, or *trail* the hand at impact?

It's been my experience that people often let the elbow lead the strike, and while they develop more 'whiplike' power, it is at the expense of potential injury to the elbow joint (similar to an 'onikudaki' joint lock or 'gojadori' joint lock).

Conversely, by allowing the elbow to trail slightly, one can deliver more body weight and transmit more energy over time. It might just be a different theory, but if I can hit you, make good grounding contact, and still drive through and cause kuzushi, I'm happy.

I personally reserve the fast-impacting whiplike shuto (omote and ura) to trapping range, where it can be shot out from contact/blocking position with more jarring sudden impact.

make sense?

Thanks,

Aric Keith

larsen_huw
2nd August 2002, 15:52
I'm sure some of the more vigulent (am sure that's spelt wrong!) of you will notice this is about my third post today, after a gap of about a year or so!

Well i've been at university, and am now bored out of my skull in a summer office job, reading this board to pass the time!

Anyways, about shuto in free sparring, i've never used one in attack, and would never consider using one, i'm wayyyyyyy to junior for something like that, and even if i did feel confident about being able to land the technique, i don't believe my control is yet good enough to not injure my opponent.

However, using it for defense is another matter. I often use open handed blocks. If my oponent is physically weak or inexpoerienced (low kyu grade, children etc.) i will sort of sweep the attack away, but against those who are comfortable with agressive (for want of a better word) blocks, i try and strike the attacking arm. Obviously this isn't done too hard, and at all times at the forefront of my mind is the safety of my opponent.

This may seem like a bad attitude for some people, i'd guess those who do full contact might think this odd, but probably the best way to describe me is a social karateka. I enjoy my karate, and enjoy getting to know other karateka, but have no wish to hurt anyone unless its absolutely necessary.

Sorry this is all a little long winded, but it really has been a slow day at work! :D

Khahan
2nd August 2002, 16:15
I see a lot of dicussion about the shuto being thrown in a wide looping motion, hooking motion, from the ear, wasted motion.
I was taught this way too...at white belt.
Not to be offensive, but as you progress through the ranks and gain more knowledge, can you not apply that to make these techniques more effective? From many of the posts I've read from a lot of you describing how you use your shuto, I'm pretty shocked nobody else has pointed this out.
I use a shuto quite often now. It usually starts from my ready position, hands up on my center line. The lead hand starts from palm in towards center to palm down. The whole motion stays pretty much on my center line, can break a collar bone or forearm, disrupt/redirect an incoming punch and needs about enough space for me to rotate my arm 1/4 turn.
The large motion of bringing it to your ear and then down across your body teaches you the mechanics. But does anybody work on making those mechanics smaller?
A shuto is a prime example of minimizing motion and shrinking your circles.

gmanry
2nd August 2002, 16:23
If I'm striking with omote shuto uchi, are you suggesting that the elbow will *lead*, or *trail* the hand at impact?
It's been my experience that people often let the elbow lead the strike, and while they develop more 'whiplike' power, it is at the expense of potential injury to the elbow joint (similar to an 'onikudaki' joint lock or 'gojadori' joint lock).

Conversely, by allowing the elbow to trail slightly, one can deliver more body weight and transmit more energy over time. It might just be a different theory, but if I can hit you, make good grounding contact, and still drive through and cause kuzushi, I'm happy


Greetings,

I can't comment for sure on your analysis vs. mine. I think it lies in what we are doing with our shoulders. I blade more than many other schools and I let my feet fall in behind my striking angle for my driving shuto.

My shuto has very little "swing" in it at all. Thus the lack of opening with the elbow. This also keeps my guard up and does not sacrifice on defense, although I try to neutralize my opponent with footwork and control techniques to land this.

I also tend to impact with a more 45 degree angle of impact through the center line of the target than say the typical kihon approach of 90 degrees. My shuto is more of a stiff arm strike than a slamming strike, most of the time, sometimes you just have to whack 'em given the circumstances, be adaptable.

I find the standard shuto in many karate circles puts too much sheer on the shoulders, hence the tendency to avoid makiwara with it. I developed mine as a cross between my Kyokushin style shuto and Budo Taijutsu's, which is a very scary type of shuto. It looks sooooo soft, until you feel a vertebra move. :)

PS

My shuto looks very "lazy" and is hard to perceive on the receiving end. I treat it like that perfect hook in boxing or the mystery punch. I never approach it like I am trying to break a bunch of boards or anything. This always tips off the experienced opponent who can "feel" this tension and eminent doom, thus defending better. If I ever wind up, like most kihon, the crossing arm is controlling and deflecting and turning my opponent to blind him to the shuto, and then I still restrict the opening of my elbow. Then I smack him as he is spinning and stepping into it from an off angle.

tenchijin2
2nd August 2002, 16:59
Thanks GLenn.


I think we are describing pretty much the same thing. I use a very relaxed omote shuto, and it lands HARD. I also hide it, so that it appears to be nothing until it lands. Like being hit by a sneaker wave:)

And I have used it in 'sparring' before.

Best,


Aric Keith

Markaso
3rd August 2002, 01:10
This maybe better as a new thread but I think that it has a point being here too.

Yes, there have been some great points brought up about the shuto strike and it's effectiveness and all. But what about the ura uchi ( aka ura ken) or for that fact the furi uchi ( sort of the same motion as the Shuto as it does come around from the side to the temple of the opponent)?

I have found this to be most effective in Kumite.


Any thoughts?

gmanry
3rd August 2002, 01:15
We probably are describing a similar thing.

For me it is important to bring the shoulder and elbow on line. The wrist and forearm maneuver via the elbow to complete the alignment.

This allows me to parry and change my mind if things go south, assuming I am astute enough to see it. This all sounds very fancy but often just resembles flailing when I have applied it in practice. :-) Fighting is ugly...

I think my contribution to this thread came out of my disappointment in so many schools that never seem to get past the shutoness of shuto, it is just another way to hit someone. It has its purposes and applications and a kabillion variations on the theme.

Markaso
3rd August 2002, 15:46
Mr.Manry


Not sure we are talking about the same thing.

The Shuto as you know or as I had been taught was with an open hand but as you may know the Ura uchi( aka. Ura ken or back hand) as well as the Furi uchi is done with a closed hand.


I think the only things that the Shuto and the Furi uchi have in common is that one of the targets that you go for is the temple as well as the fact that both strikes come in at a looping arc to the temple.

gmanry
3rd August 2002, 19:03
Mr. Markaso,

I am not sure I understand your post.

The strike I have been discussing is omote shuto, outside to inside with the side of the hand. Uraken is with the back of the two knuckles.

Could you please clarify your statement so I can respond more specifically?

Thanks

gmanry
3rd August 2002, 19:10
Mr. Khahan,

Sorry, I just read your post.


I see a lot of dicussion about the shuto being thrown in a wide looping motion, hooking motion, from the ear, wasted motion.

I agree with you that what you describe is a white belt technique. Unfortunately, I see that many people are not in fact ever shown, or allowed in some cases, to break from kihon form in many instances.

Obviously there are exceptions, as you obviously point out, and that is excellent. To make shuto effective, it has to be flexible and adaptive, as with anything else. Karate, unfortunately, suffers from roboticism, and uncreative instructors many times. It is sad. Lots of people learning shuto, doing thousands of them, and can't use it as a strike in a fight. That is my only point.

I am also not advocating that my form of shuto is "right," nor is it the only way I employ it. My description should be thought of as an "advanced kihon" (kihon=fundamental for me and not really "Basic") drill for those who can achieve basic body coordination from more simplistic drills.

Markaso
3rd August 2002, 22:17
Mr. Manry

:smilejapa

I thought that you were talking about something else. Yes the ura ken is done with the two knuckles as with the Furi uchi. The Furi uchi is also done from outside to inside as is the Shuto you were describing. The furi uchi starts from your side( or as in the case with Kihon form behind your back) and resembles the round house kick. Your thumb is on the floor side of the strike and you use the same whip motion as in the ura ken.

gmanry
4th August 2002, 00:30
Ah, furi uchi is in the kata Yan-tzu. Yes, that is quite a bit different from the shuto I was discussing. Although it does share the tactic of being hidden and then escaping the vision of your opponent in some way, but then I guess that should be one's aim in all striking techniques. :)

Thanks for the clarification.

uglyelk
5th August 2002, 08:23
My first post be gentle with me:D

I see the knife hand little utilized in sparring or street fights. I favour open hand strikes it's a large part of the style I train.

I believe many martial artists do not include this strike in their prefered bag of tricks because they are inflexible in their interpretation of how it is executed.

I'm not dissing anyone,please don't take offence, none is intended.

I see many folks start this strike in a classic pose that probably would look great in a photo shot for a kata sequence. You know step 12 chamber the shuto. Step 13 deliver the shuto. This is a great way to learn kata but a poor way to fight. Kata is a fluid thing, unfortunately we learn the techniques as a series of jerky static postures.I believe this is why I see the John Wayne posture in the shuto so often. Pose and strike :rolleyes:

John Wayne posturing is the old wind up for the haymaker. The Duke would loudly indicate his intentions verbaly, Step with the left foot while pulling his right hand all the way back to New Jersey :D Leading with his face, an easy target. This is how many of us deliver the shuto.

We raise the open hand to the eyebrow area,the shoulder comes up slightly and the elbow turns out a bit. Our oponnent reads our telegraph and takes advantage of the vacated center guard and attacks to the belly and pounds on our opened rib cage.

What if we just focused on landing that knife hand, forget that it has to target the temple or jaw line for a momment. Whats wrong with a shuto to the groin when someone grabs you from behind. Works for me:)

Think about fighting out of a sanchin stance, or a boxers stance. Throw the shuto to the side of the neck or the collar bone. Keeping your hands, forearms and elbows in front of you deliver the strike without abandoning your defence, without the windup. The fastest strike is the shortest. Strike with the palm heel end of the knife hand just in front of the wrist. This gives better focus to the strike and leaves a longer hand available to grab the back of your oponents head to pull them into the next strike.

The shuto works well when delivered to the elbow after a wrist lock.
The shuto works well when delivered to "the elbow pits" ie comming over the top with a shuto on a double arm grab, collapes the arms and allows one to to close the distance and come up the middle to an ungarded throat or chin.

One of the easiest to teach and apply. After a palm heel parry to a straight jab.(Elbows down in a sanchin or boxing type stance)the hand slides down the arm delivering a knifehand strike to the throat. (kind of from inside to inside) If you want to deliver the stike with more intent add a sliding step to close the distance. The other hand (back leg) grabs the family jewels, squeeze and pull back as the lead hand attacks the wind pipe. The attacker will be horizontal. If you closed with a horse stance they just might plant a back or a kidney on your knee on their journey to the floor.

Back to the shortest route being faster, The chap in front of you attempts a John Wayne looping shot. You step inside its arc jamming it with a forearm or back of wrist block. Pretty easy to drop a cranes beak strike, nukite, or shuto in from that postion.

Haymaker comming at you, step into it at the elbow in a spear position ala Tony Blauer. Now attack the neck with the inside hand in a palm down shuto.

The shuto to be a valid strike should not be easy to read, before adding it to your bag of tricks one should be comfortable using it offboth feet from many angles.

Sorry for the long winded post, forgive my lack of terminology, I have a difficult time expressing myself in English, could not have at all in Japaneese.

Laird Elliott

Tatsu
6th August 2002, 01:38
Originally posted by the Khazar Kid
Not necessarily "secrets". The thumb-up or L-shaped chop was Fairbairn's favorite technique! Also if you use this chop as a counterattack against strikes you could grab the opponents limb between thumb and fingers after hitting.

Jesse Peters

Jess': Just being facetious. We all know there are no real secrets in karate. The hand form I talked about is very prevalent in the internal chinese systems. I've heard Fairbairn was a joke, but that is probably untrue. He did convince the military to adopt his fighting techs.

So, Less tension = more speed. This is a relaxed, soft hand form. Hand stability is achieved through alignment, not tightening of the hand muscles. Anatomically it is more stable, and velocity-wise, faster. The slightly protruding thumb can be used for gouges to various head and face targets,(hehe another not-so-secret secret).

Bye-bye martialists, practice hard and smart...

Sochin
6th August 2002, 17:43
uglyelk,

glad to see you here - this is a good place. Very good first post, up to your usual standards I see... :)

Bryan,
Fairbairn is no joke. Whoever said that may be like a man blinded by the light, who can't see what is happening in the shadows - the light in this case being his amazment at someone's martial arts abilitites.

The thumb is extended to try to help keep the arm relaxed tho some cqc users practice this tense because in a fight you will be tense so you might as well get used to it.

When you get tired of smelling the sizzle, Fairbair has thick steak. :D

hakuda
6th August 2002, 18:19
As I recall shuto means lit. sword hand. I was taught to strike and push depending on the area struck. If the area is mainly nerve it will put more stress on the particular nerve struck. It's also nasty when done on the tricep area. It rolls that muscle and feeds into a nice lock. As far as thumb up or down, I just prefer it down. Less chance of something bad happening to it.

T Wall

larsen_huw
7th August 2002, 10:32
The only translation i've heard for shuto is knife. However, i know nothing abotu the Japanese language except for the phrases used in the dojo, so would not be suprised if i'm wrong on this.