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TFunakoshi
27th May 2002, 15:23
Hi friends in America and elsewhere.

Let's talk a bit about the power of a punch (for instance oi zuki). There is the assumption that the elbow have to keep down if you punch (like in JKD and Isshin ryu) so you get a more powerful punch. If you turn your elbow to the side it will weaken your punch.

There is an article on www.fightingarts.com (http://www.fightingarts.com/content01/power_punch.shtml) but there is no big explanation.

Well, what's the point? Are there more muscles at work or is that all rubbish? Give your point of view!

Sochin
27th May 2002, 15:39
I want to keep my punch aligned with the elbow directly behind the fist so that a block must intercept from the side, a matter of timing. If the elbow drifts up and out , the forearm is presented to the opponent and moves towards him - all he has to do to block it is to put up a stationary forearm and your forearm runs into it.

Keeping the fist palm up helps keep the elbow down and in line.

:)

TFunakoshi
27th May 2002, 16:49
Hello Sochin.

Thanks for answering but 'subject misssed' :)

A good idea you give but I need to know WHY and IF there is more power by punching with the elbow downwards.

Is there a triceps behind it which strengthen the punch? I think it is a anatomical problem (if at all).

Rob Alvelais
27th May 2002, 17:18
Don't think you can really get anything other than a SWAG. There are too many variables involved in an individual's punch. How do you measure which is "stronger" given that you'd have to control the variables of a punch for at least two individuals.

Then you have the question, how strong is necessary, and does the difference buy you anything? Added to that, is does the training methodology, for one method outweigh the potential gains of the other method. That is, say that method 1 is 10 lbs stronger than method 2, but method 2 get's the job done quite nicely. But, method 2 is much easier to learn and do quickly. What then?

Rob

TFunakoshi
27th May 2002, 18:02
Hello.


That is, say that method 1 is 10 lbs stronger than method 2, but method 2 get's the job done quite nicely. But, method 2 is much easier to learn and do quickly. What then? Dude :(
I want to understand WHY method 2 is easier to learn than method 1 and WHY method 1 works better than method 2 and IF method 1 is stronger than method 2 at all.

There's no harm in asking so i'm asking. It's interesting for me to know such things. There is no doubt in the effectiveness of method 1 and method 2 but I would like to know WHY method 2 is stronger than methode 1 (plz read the article which I've posted!).

Don't state that there are 100 other methods of fighing, punching and kicking. That doesn't help me on.

Though, thanks for your post!

gmanry
28th May 2002, 05:24
The article states in the first couple of paragraphs why turning the elbow out weakens the punch. It allows some of the impact energy to be transferred to the bending elbow which is not in alignment with the shoulder or the target.

To answer your question, it doesn't have a thing to do with muscles coming into play. It does have to do with skeletal structure. Either the structure can take the energy load and deliver it to the target, or it can't. Of course, you never get 100% efficiency.

Stand in front of a wall in a narrow front stance. Put your palm or fist on the wall with your elbow bent and down. Your elbow should be above your forward knee, and your back knee should be slightly BENT, not locked straight or even mostly straight. By applying weight forward with your rear foot (toes) you should feel the alignment connect between your fist and rear foot. Apply a lot of weight towards your punching hand, and then quickly turn the elbow out to the side. It is like a hose that is suddenly punctured, water spurts out the hole in the wrong place, decreasing the pressure. The problem is mostly skeletal, of course muscles do move the skeleton, so you have to train your muscles to do this naturally, but it is not a question of "muscle power." Truthfully, the lack of muscle power one requires to hurt someone with a properly aligned punch is astonishing.

If you look at a hook punch in boxing, the elbow is turned out, as the body pivots creating a circular structure that transfers to the front foot, so it makes sense but only if the shoulder and hips move into the right shape at the right time. Muscle power is gravy on top of the steak of structure.

Rogier
28th May 2002, 08:45
different styles different punches... Does it really matter? If you hit your opponent enough times he'll go down anyway..

n2shotokai
28th May 2002, 14:22
I was always taught there are several reasons to punch with the elbow down.

1. Shortest distance between two points = straight line. Punch starts elbow down, ends elbow down. No wasted movement (no wasted energy).

2. Deception. Elbow out punch can be seen coming from a mile away and easy to block. Elbow in the only thing you see coming is the fist, not the whole arm.

3. Elbow out punches end up going around, further out and arcing away from the body (reverse punch) more and more as more energy is applied. More and more energy is applied to the arc and less to the forward motion.

4. It is VERY easy to break an arm with elbow out punch. MUCH more difficult when the punch is with the elbow down.

I'll think of more reasons after another cup of coffee ......

Steve Beale

Khahan
28th May 2002, 15:39
Its also a matter of physics (which I can't get too deeply into) and basic anatomy.
When you punch with your elbow down, you use the muscles in your upper chest and front shoulder area as well as the tricep for extension. These are large muscle groups and rather strong.
When you turn your elbow out this shifts the main muscle group to the side of the shoulder (deltoid). This is comparatively speaking, a much smaller muscle and is not designed for this type of movement. That is the anatomy at at basic level.
On the side of physics, its a matter of structure (ok, this is also anatomy). When keep your elbow down, this aligns the arm in a relatively straight line. It keeps the weight of your body, the energy from the muscle groups etc going straight out to the fist.
Upon contact, you have a more solid backing to land the blow.
When you turn the elbow out, you are now directing energy out away from yourself (as well as moving your arm further from your center of power). Turning the elbow out removes you from being 'behind the punch' no matter if you cock your fist to stay in front of you or not, there is a joint going away from you.
2 simple exercises to prove this:
1) Stand facing a partner. Put your arms straight out, palm up. Have your partner place his hands palm down on yours. Now resist him as he pushes down...you can't.
Now pull your arms in to your sides, so that each forms a V and your hands are closer to your shoulders. Now you can resist and can probably push him up even.
2) Take a straight pole (jo, bo whatever) and let somebody jab you with it. Now, take a jointed pole and bend the joint and let somebody jab you with it. Which would you rather be jabbed with? *by the way, you guys can use your imaginations on this one, no need to actually get jabbed*
..
edit: I might add that this applies for a punch such as oi szuki which was asked for in the opening message. But if you do look at a punch like a boxers hook, there are adjustments made to keep body structure and muscle groups in alignment.

hector gomez
28th May 2002, 16:29
The most powerful puncher in boxing in the last 20 yrs has to be
Iron Mike Tyson,This fighter does nothing but throw punches in arcs,
with the elbow out and to be honest,he has probably never thrown a punch with the elbow in.

Will he improve his punching power if he changes the way he punches?




Hector Gomez

gmanry
28th May 2002, 16:45
Tyson does arc his punches, but if you watch his movement he also moves his hips and shoulders in the appropriate way to compensate for that. He also has a natural punching style. You can bet his trainers took him through the basics and helped him develop that natural style.

Ali also used a lot of looping punches, again, the ones that counted had the proper hip and elbow alignment, for hooks the body has to be following that arc and turning in with it. If you are looping a right cross and leaving your body in a standard right cross position, you will throw a pretty ineffective punch. Tyson also has a lot of mass compared to most and he used his legs and body effectively to generate power.

One can always find an example outside the norm, that is the nature of a statistical distribution. George F. threw from a pretty straight and aligned position and he hit incredibly hard, maybe harder than Tyson. Should he have changed the way he hit?

hector gomez
28th May 2002, 17:06
Gmanry,
Duran,benitez,leonard,marciano,mancini and pryor were all pretty much
loopers,but then you had fighters like hearns,arguello,monzon etc who
like to throw more aligned straight punches.

I believe,it is exactly like you say ,as long as the body weight is transfered properly to compensate for the trajectory of the punch,there is no right or wrong way.

Hector Gomez

gmanry
28th May 2002, 20:16
Yep,

The issue is proper transfer of weight with the proper structure.

I would bet that none of those boxers started out loopers, but eventually found their own natural style. This is the MOST important thing, and this is where some traditional style training can ruin one's potential. Eventually, you have to learn how to color outside the lines, but most people cannot do that with any grace or ability when they first start out.

Mas Oyama wrote that the straight punch is always a little loopy, but you should have everything coming into alignment at contact. He has some nice pictures in his books of this using strobe photography. He hit pretty hard from what I have seen and read. :-)

For those beginners among us, the straight alignment merely serves to prevent wild winging and flailing. Once that is under control, move on to the next stage in training. This should not take years and years to develop. It may take 2-3 to round it out well and really get a natural feel. Then things really get interesting.

Mas Oyama wrote that the straight punch is always a little loopy, but you should have everything coming into alignment at contact. He has some nice pictures in his books of this using strobe photography. He hit pretty hard. :-)

For boxers, I think the loopy comes out of a need to confuse a relatively equal opponent who can move and defend. The trajectory will curve, but at impact the alignment will come into play through body pivoting, distance, etc. Just as in any martial art, with two evenly matched opponents, the one who improvises better will win. Improvisation is still linked to the basics, but it transcends them. Oh, oh, deep...and philosophical...:eek:

Ok, maybe not.

kenshorin
28th May 2002, 20:26
Originally posted by gmanry
Tyson does arc his punches, but if you watch his movement he also moves his hips and shoulders in the appropriate way to compensate for that. He also has a natural punching style. You can bet his trainers took him through the basics and helped him develop that natural style.

Ali also used a lot of looping punches, again, the ones that counted had the proper hip and elbow alignment, for hooks the body has to be following that arc and turning in with it. If you are looping a right cross and leaving your body in a standard right cross position, you will throw a pretty ineffective punch. Tyson also has a lot of mass compared to most and he used his legs and body effectively to generate power.

One can always find an example outside the norm, that is the nature of a statistical distribution. George F. threw from a pretty straight and aligned position and he hit incredibly hard, maybe harder than Tyson. Should he have changed the way he hit?

Good stuff all.

One other thing related to better defense... since Tyson uses mostly abdominals, hips and legs to generate power, his shoulders and elbow usually are "locked in"... that is, he doesn't extend his arm a lot for the hit, since a lot of the motion is generated by his lower body. This keeps his abs and ribs "crunched", since even though his elbow is out, his arm etc. are still down.

Straight punching usually requires more arm extension, since you cannot generate as much power from centrifugal force like a hooking punch. If the elbow is up and out while the arm is being extended outward, this causes the ribs and abdominals to extend on that side as well, which leaves you in a very vulnerable position, since the muscles and abs on the side are not designed to endure a lot of pressure while extended. Leaving the elbow down allows the ribs and abs to keep from overextending and being exposed.

Sochin
29th May 2002, 00:21
I think I need a punching power meter and test drive it both ways!

gmanry
29th May 2002, 00:40
Ok,

Next time the State Fair is up in your area, go to the midway and pony up your 75 cents to hit that silly giant red speed bag, Punch O' Meter. That will scientifically prove it. :D

TFunakoshi
29th May 2002, 06:17
Hello.

Thank you very much for your postings. Now I am a little bit wiser.

mushinmaster
31st May 2002, 04:30
I believe gmanry and Khahan nailed it.

Punching meter eh? We have something like that. Four square foam pads, about an inch thick each, are held together by a belt. The holder places this pad directly over his/her chest. These pads don't give at all, and transfer the impact through to the holder, yet not the full force of the blow. The holder can tell when there is a good technique, usually b/c it feels like you just had a hole punched in your chest, lol.

All I know is I came into this dojo with a boxing style punch, and I failed this test miserably. After about a years worth of this type of punching, my impact has gone up incredibly, both with these targets and on the heavy bag. It really tells you if your technique is working or not.

This does wonders for kicks too, and it toughens up your chest, and indicates weaknesses in your stance. It's really a great training tool.

antonsevilla
31st May 2002, 16:12
If you have the time, please do the following:

Put a bathroom weighing scale against the wall and push on it with your knuckles, at the same extension as you'd have during impact.

Get the 3 second max force you exert in pounds for:

1) Vertical Fist, elbow down
2) Vertical Fist, elbow out
3) Horizontal Fist, elbow down
4) Horizontal Fist, elbow out.

My results are:
Highest: Vertical fist, elbow down a tad higher than elbow out.
Lower: Horizontal fist, no appreciable difference between elbow down and elbow out.

Tips:
Be sure to keep your feet at the same position all throughout the test. Push with your whole body, just like when you punch.
Do the positions in different orders so the results are not distorted by fatigue.

Analysis:

1) I am rather dumbfounded that my vertical fist was stronger (10 or so lbs) than my horizontal fist. I did first two knuckles. My current fight art is boxing, so I don't really do vertical fist.

2) I powerlift, so if I draw parallels between benching rules and this, it makes sense. Under westside protocol, (and under most bodybuilding lore) you do dumbell bench presses with your hands semi-supinated (vertical fist). This ensures the proper position of the elbows, according to Simmons and Tate. Also, you're supposed to tuck your elbows in (maintaining your hand position, that would be a direct rotation of your elbow to point it down [actually external rotation of the humerus]) while benching, supposedly leading to an activation of the latissimus dorsi for stabilization.

3) Anthony Clark who has a monster benchpress, benchpresses with his hands palm up (supinated). This is illegal in most federations, but according to some keeps your shoulder tighter and helps tricep involvement.

* I know benching and punching are very different, but I like looking into all sorts of sports to analyze the biomechanics of something so rarely scrutinized physically as punching.

Could anyone try this out and post their results? I would be very interested in how this goes. I am considering shifting to vertical fist.

antonsevilla
31st May 2002, 16:39
Oh, and I forgot, strictly anatomy wise:

1) You don't have to loop to turn your elbow. You don't have to bend your elbow either.

2) If you isolate the turning out of the elbow, it's strictly an internal rotation of the humerus (upper arm bone) which is a function of some rotator cuff muscles, (internal rotators) and your lats and your pectorals.

3) When benching, internally rotating your humerus would be akin to flaring out your elbows. This would tear your shoulder to pieces. No one does this. This is the opposite of the "pull your elbows in" doctrine of benching, no matter how wide your grip is.

4) I do not know how to quantify or qualify the weakness of the shoulder joint at the point of extreme internal rotation. I do believe it has something to do with your humerus kinda leaving the socket a bit (glenoid fossa if your very sci freaky). So your shoulder is kinda detached a bit. Not a good idea.

--

All in all I think the article makes sense.

One LAST trial I may try and others may try too.

Go in dumbell bench position (lying down on a bench of course) with your arms extended. Use the heaviest dumbells you can handle. Get help if possible (hoisting em up). Now try pointing your elbows in and out (external and internal rotation respectively) in both the semi-supinated (vertical fist) and pronated (horizontal fist) positions. I am guessing that will clarify the stability issue immediately.

Dojorat
31st May 2002, 19:38
Greetins,

I've had a running friendly debate with an Isshinryu practitioner about the comparitive power and so forth of the vertical fist vs. horizontal fist. The link to this discussion is that, in turning the fist horizontal w/ palm down most people flare their elbows out away from the side.

I asked my physician, who's board certified in Sports Medicine, about this. His response was that rotating the fist over to a palm down position disengages the biceps muscle. This action lessens the resistance that the biceps muscle places on extension of the elbow and allows the triceps to extend the elbow faster. Therefore, the fist can travel and hit the target at a higher velocity.

The trick is to keep the elbow in and the palm up for as long as possible and then snap the fist over as near the end of the extension.

Also, for those of you enamored with the way a boxer delivers their fist to target, go into an emergency room or trauma center and present with a broken bone between the wrist and large knuckle in the ring or little finger. They'll probably note it as a "Boxer's Break/Fracture" This is a common injury to those trained to use taped hands and gloves with little regard for what surface is striking hard targets. I do believe Mr. Tyson experienced this with a Mr. Greene outside a NYC nightclub.

Lastly, without the muscles/tendons and ligaments, the bones have no structure at all. It all works together.

Cheers,

gmanry
31st May 2002, 20:21
Mr. Montague

A very good post. However, I have to disagree with the idea that the skeleton is useless without the muscles. A frequent mistake made by sports specialists is their reliance on only looking at the limb they perceive to be in play.

In reality the impetus for a punch comes from the feet and their contact with the ground, then the same connection, through the skeletal alignment comes into play as they absorb the impact and redirect that energy back into the object again. I have knocked people loopy without really engaging the tricep with any real or meaningful velocity, just by aligning my skeleton properly and stepping into them.

While a lot of people concentrate on that muscular power to generate velocity, they may want to reconsider and work on the closing of distance properly and the knowledge of angles of impact using good alignment (there are many ways to achieve good alignment relative to different angles and types of strikes).

The muscle skeleton thing is a chicken egg argument. Muscles are useless without the levers of the skeleton. The levers of the skeleton need the direction of the muscles. It is a system, as you noted, and as a system it extends way beyond the punching arm all the way to the nervous system and the mind.

The reductionist view of sports medicine is not always helpful in looking at motions that are systematic, but it is incredibly useful in fine tuning portions of the system, as your post indicates.

The note about the boxer's fracture is soooo true. This is why mawashi uke turns the two knuckles down to create a better striking surface. This is the karate hook.

antonsevilla
1st June 2002, 02:31
I was just wondering... personally I am very uncomfortable with vertical fist, but I am thinking it may not be too sound to "disengage" the bicep at the end of the movement. While this may negate antagonistic deceleration, I think the perceived loss of power of the biceps would cause an inhibition of the triceps. It's an antagonistic pair thing. Actually the stronger your biceps are at the full stretch range, the more confident you are neurally of punching fast because your body knows the bicep strength can help you maintain the integrity of your joint (for instantaneous deceleration), most specially if you miss.

I do not have my research handy, so goodness me, I could be completely wrong. This may have something to do with the Golgi Tendon Organ btw, a tensiometer "mechanoreceptor" in your tendons. Sorry guys.

I will start a new thread on vertical versus horizontal fist, in the Karate forum. Hope you guys can help me out.

:)

davoravo
1st June 2002, 14:17
gh

davoravo
1st June 2002, 14:41
sorry, struggling with my posting.
I beleive the whole thrust of the article is wrong in that surely if you are impacting with the elbow straight you are standing too far away?!?
Most boxers punch with the elbow out, they still use their legs and hips to generate their power.
Letting the elbows flare out lets you employ the pectoralis major and latissimus dorsi muscles better (compare press ups with the hands slighlty wider than shoulder disctance apart and closer together, the former is easier)

The so called boxer's fracture should be renamed the streetfighters fracture as it is usually untrained fighters who suffer from it because they hit with the knuckles of the ring and little fingers rather than index and middle. Having said that, if you look at a skeleton the bones of the hand are very fragile compared to the skull and jaw and any style of punch to the head is risking a fracture.

On the other hand "elbows down" does have all the defensive advanages (but at full extension the elbow is till vulnerable to leverage). In aikido (and ?chinese MAs) they use that flared out elbow to unbalance the opponent.

gmanry
1st June 2002, 21:24
Mr. McNamara,

A good post. You bring up an interesting point about distance concerning punching styles. In a boxing match the punches are designed to shock the brain and body while maintaining distance to move onto the next blow. Boxers do punch through the opponent, but they do it differently in some instances than a karateka.

In karate, I find that the punch should be walked through the opponent, to lead to capture and control of the opponents balance, transitioning to throws, locks, and grappling or to using the opponent as a shield against multiple attackers. The elbow should never be fully extended and the punch should penetrate up to 4 inches through the center of the opponent in the ideal situation (not gonna happen 100% of the time of course). Driving up through the chin the karateka can, theoretically, maintain connection and pressure on the sternum of the opponent withe forearm elbow, grab the neck and throw by turning or walking through the opponent. This can be done with the elbow out, looping style punch but you have to walk across the opponent more to get a throw.

Boxers don't operate that way, as grappling is not really allowed. So the boxer must strike through, drive, pivot to get range, punch again as the opponent goes down to the canvas. This leads to the need for the looping punches as well as the straight ones.

I disagree that it is untrained street fighters. I know lots of my boxing buddies who have broken their hands outside of the tape and gloves. Rocky marciano once marveled at the strength of Mas Oyama's hands when they were introduced, noting he wished boxers would develop stronger hands. This is of course not true of all boxers, some understand the anatomy of the hand, some don't and become to reliant on the protective equipment.