View Full Version : Training vs reality

28th May 2002, 15:24
I got this from the Shuto thread here in the karate forum.
In that thread people were discussing the pro's and con's of the shuto and how to apply it properly. The issue of the 'large movement from the ear' vs a smaller circle came up.
I was taught w/ the large movement in multiple styles. In 1 style (my current) as my training progressed, I was taught to make the movement smaller and smaller, until now, i can deliver a shuto w/ more than sufficient force with my hand already out at my center line.
This seems to be a common training practice, teach large movements at low levels and tighten the movements as the students progress.
I guess I'm asking very general questions here:
How many people employ this training method?
At what point do you begin to make your students tweak their movements?
How many of your students get this?
There is another side to this, a problematic side. How many people do you guys think learned the wrong way and now teach the wrong way not knowing they need to adjust as they go?

Budoka 34
28th May 2002, 17:20
As my Instructor says: " First you learn to paint in broad strokes, then you fill in the detail." Gross motor skills (which you revert to under stress) must be developed first, then stronger more finite motions can be developed.
From my experience many "modern" karate instructors and students forget this. It's that western "instant gratification" thing all over again, I see this in many new students.
"Why do I have to stand in KoKutsudachi? I'm not going to fight like that!"
As my Instructor says: "The answers are in the training."

As for something being taught, "the wrong way", I try to remember that all styles are, after all, made up.
In other words, to each his/her own.


Shitoryu Dude
28th May 2002, 17:45
Reminds me of the zillion and one self-defense techniques I "learned" while taking Kenpo. That was nearly 20 years ago and I couldn't perform more than 5 of them today "properly". I did take from it a very good understanding of how to put together such techniques on the fly without really thinking about it. The constant repetition of executing what amounted to the same dozen or so blocks, kicks and strikes to just about every target on the body from every angle and stance leaves you very capable of using them anytime/place without thought.

The beginner will use the taught techniques until such time as they no longer need to have their actions thought out in advance for them. After that they will look upon them as the training tool that they are.


30th May 2002, 13:24

Nobody blocks with shuto uke in kokutsu dachi and counters then with nukite in zenkutsu dachi. Shuto uke is a MOVEMENT which came from the kata. This MOVEMENT says (for example) that you grab your attackers wrist, pull him to you, and strike with your hand to his throat.

All MOVEMENTS in the kata must be considered!!! I recommend for more "Karate's Grappling Methods - Understanding kata and bunkai".

What I would like to say!? A short Shuto uke is a wrong Shuto uke ... at least in prescribed kata ... if you've built up your own kata you have your own MOVEMENTS which can say "don't grab the wrist of the attacker rather than strike immediately".

31st May 2002, 03:14

This is precisly what we do at my dojo, which places a major emphasis on impact power. When a student first begins training, the most emphasis is put on the reverse punch, and hip rotation. It's really funny to watch, b/c the poor student looks more like a dancer than a karateka. As they learn to control and maximize their hip movement, sensei will focus in on other parts of the punch - aligning the muscles, extending the stroke, locking out the stance, and isolating and directing the body movement.

The punch begins like a normal karateka's thrust, but later is moved up to a boxer's stance with the same principles, yet less motion and telegraphing - and more impact. It takes years upon years to learn the best combination of movement and power - where there is too much telegraphing or too little power. Refined motions and maximized utility of technique is the mark of an expert karateka.