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slaszysz
31st May 2002, 11:48
What is origin of oi-zuki technique?

It seems to me that this long range punch is not useful in fight...
Too long distance to cover, the opponent may get out of oi-zuki's way.

What is your point of view?
Is this for developing lower parts of body only? None of practicable applications?

kusanku
1st June 2002, 05:37
Well, there are ways of doing oizuki, where the other guy has basically one choice, and one desire, get dawse Heck out of the way!:D

Sounds funny but must experience this to believe.Not slow at all.Some the Sensei on here, will back this I am certain.

regards to all,

Victor
1st June 2002, 11:09
Well in the Isshinryu system, our variation on the oi-zuki, is a much shorter ranger strike, using the lead, vertical snapping hand. Personally it is a more natural strike than the long range version you're questioning.

But, in my experience oi-zuki is a perfectly workable technique, but not necessarily as a large leading driving strike.

Let me give a 'standard' example using Heian Shodan where you begin to the left with a left low block followed by stepping through with the lunging strike.

If an opponent has grabbed your left hand and begins to pull you forward, the turning low block can be used to turn over your opponents arm and twisting them to the left, then following with the oi-zuki works just fine to complete the strike.

Heck under some circumstances the stepping motion for the strike might be a sweep and the strike itself may actually just be sliding across a triceps inception for a takedown too.

Of course if you're striking somebody from behind when they're not expecting it, I suspect oi-zuki works well too <GRIN>

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Ginko
2nd June 2002, 01:26
What if it's not a punch? Maybe it's a throw.

Jay Setser
www.zentokukai.com

kusanku
2nd June 2002, 03:57
Oi Zuki, as many will tell you, can be many things to many people, including all Victor said and includign a throw, as irimi nage for instance, .

It can evne be a stepping gyakuzuki with a followup punch as your= drag or slide the rear foot to front position in a controlled fall. Very hard to block this if you don't know the tactic and see it coming.

Or, for this matter, it can be a series of punches, a gyaku, a front snap punch that recoils back and hits agiain as you drive on through.

or, it can be, one fast step through the opponent's space, set up by a previous move like a backfist across the eyes during the step, and then through into the oizuki itself.

Could even be, a standing series of triple punch starting with gyaku from fighting stance, or with jabbing punch and three, then step forward as opponent falls back , and finish with oizuki, or close with it and finish with something else.

The possibillities are if not infinite, at least less finite or limited than one may at first visualize.

Idea being oi zuki means pursuit thrust, so you are pursuing as your opponent steps away.Or falls back away, maybe.

Different ways of looking at this.

Hans Bachmann
21st June 2002, 18:27
How's this:

You stand in natural stance (your hanging out with your buddies, say in a parking lot or some place where there is a lot of room.) Earlier you happened to piss some guy off inadvertantly. The guy decides he want to kick your butt after mulling various things over in his head. The guy decides to charge you from 10 feet (double leg take-down, bowl you over, etc.). He gets to about 8 feet or so with all his momentum behind him. You dart straight for him with Oi-Tsuki, and mash his skull. Because of his momentum you hit him full bolt, he cannot do anything to stop himself (he sure as heck didn't expect you to do this or he would not have attacked you in this manner), and the shock factor clouds his mind because you are closing the distance really fast on him as he is charging you.

Can you say hambuger...

Hans Bachmann

Budoka 34
21st June 2002, 19:46
Slawomir:

I have seen George Kataka (USA-NKF national kumite champion 2001) and others land Oi-tsuki from 2.5 meters, before his opponent even knew he was moving. In my own dojo I've been hit by Oi-tsuki from 1.5 meters (distance covered by striker).
It's just a matter of developing the speed and power to deliver it effectively.

As to it's origin: It may have been developed to help get inside the Samurai's weapon (i.e. sword, spear, naginata), as in, closing the gap.
Just a thought.

:smilejapa

Jussi Häkkinen
22nd June 2002, 13:18
As to it's origin: It may have been developed to help get inside the Samurai's weapon (i.e. sword, spear, naginata), as in, closing the gap.

Not bloody likely. Ever studied the use of a samurai sword - not even mentioning the longer weapons? Then, try to step "in".

Such common movement as oi-tsuki is, I think there really isn't much mythos to it. Step in, punch with your lead hand - no rocked science (or sword science) likely to be here.

Hans Bachmann
23rd June 2002, 18:03
FWIW: I have seen the takamatsu-den people do some form of this when a person is attacking with an over head downward cut. The way I saw it is that the attacker raises the sword and the defender leaps forward and hits with a boshiken (thumb strike).

Would I try that against a live blade? HELL NO!

Hans Bachmann

Budoka 34
23rd June 2002, 20:06
Jussi and Robert:

I respect your opinions on this matter, and would ask you to do the same.

Robert:

Respectfully, I know enough about the origins of Okinawan karate to know, no one living can say for sure how any given technique originated. We can only make informed guesses.
We would have to take into account the probability that some "empty hand" techniques developed directly from armed techniques.
In the case of Oi-tsuki, you can see several armed techniques (sheild and knife, teiko, etc. that may have proceeded it.
This was my reasoning behind the comment. Can you forgive my ignorance? :D

Jussi:
I have tried Oi-tsuki as a counter to weapons attacks (yari, naginata, bo and sword).
I'd be lying if I said I succeeded!:D
Truthfully though, I have seen it done.

:smilejapa

Budoka 34
24th June 2002, 12:12
Robert:

Sorry if I missunderstood.
As to the developement of unarmed technique from armed. My understanding is that most unarmed methods developed from armed.
Think about it. Did ancient peoples fight empty handed or did they pick up rocks, sticks, etc.?
Another example would be the unarmed arts developed by the Samurai to defend themselves when they lost their weapon in combat.
We know the Okinawans had been exposed to Chaun-fa by 15th century and possibly as early as the 6th century. I am really asking! :D

Shuri-te and Tomari-te(spelling?) where well developed by the 17th century, but all that I've seen indicates that they had armed methods long before.
Any way, my thinking has always been, when the carrying of arms was forbidden new empty hand technique developed from the armed, to fill the need. You can see this in some kata.
What do you think?

:smilejapa

Budoka 34
24th June 2002, 19:40
Yes,
I know that the ban was before the Japanese invasion. I agree, I probably should not have used Samurai as the opponent (trying to keep it simple), but even Kobudo instructors recognize and teach that empty hand techniques may have developed from armed ones. It's the foundation of Sogo Budo concepts, everything is related.:D

:smilejapa

CEB
24th June 2002, 20:13
Originally posted by Budoka 34
Yes,
I know that the ban was before the Japanese invasion. I agree, I probably should not have used Samurai as the opponent (trying to keep it simple), but even Kobudo instructors recognize and teach that empty hand techniques may have developed from armed ones. It's the foundation of Sogo Budo concepts, everything is related.:D

:smilejapa

I think your first problem is that this is a Ryukyu Forum and I don't think you will find many practioners of the Ryukyu Arts that will buy into that model of development. There will be similarites between kodudo and karate forms due to the nature of human body mechanics but I don't think you will find many people to go along with the idea that Ryukyu Kempo developed from ,for instance, Bo Jutsu.

Your model does I believe hold true in Japanese arts. Most of the Unarmed Japanese Arts were developed in the Edo Period. Which was a peaceful time. The samurai did develop unarmed arts from their Kobudo. ( Shiho nage and Shiho giri I think are good examples) I don't think it was done so that they would have a backup in case they lost their weapon in battle. If that happened they would get another weapon real quick or they would probably be screwed. I think the unarmed arts were developed more for self defense and civil situations. An aikijutsu teacher I know tells me that the purpose of his art was to be able to seize and subdue someone in the castle so that they could be taken outside and killed. I guess no one wanted to get blood inside the castle :)

Maybe after Tokugawa Ieyasu the samurai just had too much time on their hands to play around with empty hand stuff. Thank God they did some great arts came from the Edo period.

Take Care

slaszysz
24th June 2002, 20:14
Hmm, and what about oi-zuki technique in Okinawan kata (except Pinan and other "basic" forms from the beginning of XX century)?
Is it included in them?

CEB
24th June 2002, 20:26
Originally posted by slaszysz
Hmm, and what about oi-zuki technique in Okinawan kata (except Pinan and other "basic" forms from the beginning of XX century)?
Is it included in them?

Off the top of my head I believe there is one in Paisai and one at the end of Chinto. But then again I'm a Goju Guy.

Have a good day.

Jussi Häkkinen
24th June 2002, 22:52
Hmm, and what about oi-zuki technique in Okinawan kata (except Pinan and other "basic" forms from the beginning of XX century)?

Passai, Chinto, Ananku (kata created by Kyan Chotoku), Chatan Yara no Kusanku (in hirate age uke - oi tsuki -combination after 4 shuto uke).

Also in younger kata, Fukyugata Ichi (Shoshin Nagamine).

At least in those.


Could say that in kata oi-tsuki seems to be usually used in addition of other technique to advance and break into the opponent's guard. However, that is just the external appearance - application may differ greatly from it.
One great example can be found from Passai. First one releases himself from the grab (dual block), then strikes the ribs (dual strike) and takes the opponent out with an oi-tsuki (advancing punch). That's a pretty nice example of a "get in and make the stuff work" -application of oi-tsuki.

Tatsu
25th June 2002, 02:01
Originally posted by CEB


Off the top of my head I believe there is one in Paisai and one at the end of Chinto. But then again I'm a Goju Guy.

Have a good day.

In Paisai Dai, after the double punches to the abdomen, a small shuffle step forward followed by a lead hand punch (oi-zuki) is executed. This is a good example of a controlled lunge punch. It's just one example of oi-tsuki in the higher level kata.

Leading limb strikes are very good to practice. I don't know if lunging is such a good idea, but this technique can have its uses.

Budoka 34
25th June 2002, 12:20
Ed:
Thanks.
That is the most open minded response I've received.
I don't mean to imply that any technique originated from armed techniques for sure, just that it is a possibility. Read my earlier posts, I tried to make it clear that I believe the armed and empty hand are related. While I don't believe that RyuKyu Kempo developed directly from armed arts, I do believe that these forms have impacted each other based on the very similarities you noted (body mechanics).

While on the subject of Ryukyu Kempo (Kenpo), do you believe that Ryukyu Kempo existed before the introduction of Chaun-fa to the Islands?
I only ask because I've read and heard it both ways.

Wow, I really got caught up in this thread! :D
Ed, thanks again.


:smilejapa

CEB
25th June 2002, 16:50
Originally posted by Budoka 34
.........
While on the subject of Ryukyu Kempo (Kenpo), do you believe that Ryukyu Kempo existed before the introduction of Chaun-fa to the Islands?
I only ask because I've read and heard it both ways.

...........

:smilejapa

I think it did. I also think the Chinese connection is made bigger than it really is. Harry Cook made a point in another thread and I thought it made a lot of sense. His basic message was that you can go all over the world and find people practicing Okinawian karate. In some case the arts were disseminated by people who only spent a year or two in Okinawa and you can recognize their forms as being Okinawa karate. So why can't you find forms in Okinawa being practiced the way they are practiced in China or Formosa. Why would Okinawians go to China and spend 10 15, or 20 years to master Chinese martial arts then come back hime and change it completely out of recognition? I'm Goju Ryu and we have been taught that Higaoshionna Kanyro went to China and learned from Ryu Ryu Ko and brought the art back to Okinawa. I don't know who started that legend but there is some current research seems to indicate that it is not true.

I have really drifted away from the origin of Oi-zuki, sorry maybe someone can start a thread on the Chinese - Okinawian connections.

Oi-Zuki can really hurt.