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Victor
6th June 2002, 02:50
Thought it was time to begin a new thread.

For those of us who love the Okinawan arts, where do you think the future will go?

Is it deeper research into the past?

Is it expanded research into potential which has not been expressed?

If there is anything I keep learning, the potential number of topics in our arts is truly infinite. Whichever portions I choose to concentrate, there are infinite others I have no time to address. And, all of them seem worthy of study.

Do we work on increasing power in performance?
Do we work on further flow in our technique?
Do we research older versions of kata, and try and understand the forces behind change?
Do we concentrate on new methods of striking, areas to strike?

But the smallest of topic lists.

Where do you see your art going?

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi

PingAnTu
6th June 2002, 06:29
Well, nobody can research it all. In "ancient" martial arts they not only had many styles but also many trans-style specialties including energetic striking, body-hardening, inside grappling, vital-point striking, balance breaking, etc, etc, etc...

It was common for many martial artists to be refered to other teachers to learn some specific skill that his own teacher had not developed. This was not to say that the other teacher was a better over all martial artist, it just meant that he had a special skill.

Look at the Shaolin temple in Henan. How many styles and techniques came out of there? So many that nobody knows. This proves that martial arts can go in infinite directions and specialties. Same could be said of all the great traditions of China and Japan.

Karate can go in many directions and specialties. I would like to see more people develop these different directions.

I would also like to see people get off the kick that whatever they do is best and seek to find the value in what other styles do. There are certainly secrets in various styles (or were) but that's because if the other schools found out what they were, they could beat them. So there is no ultimate technique or style -- only techniques and training methods of advantage.

But let's not forget that the karate of the future should include classical, traditional, and eclectic/modern styles. All have value for people of differing training goals. We have people at our dojo who have absolutely NO desire to learn self-defense! They only like the sporting elements. Others only want self-defense. Others like ritualistic traditionalism.

There is no question that the classical stuff is the most sophisticated, but all approaches have value for different people. THEREFORE, the karate of the future should be a karate of mutual respect for fellow serious martial artists.

Hopefully though, more people will take karate seriously enough to BE ABLE to grow to a point where they can appreciate the classical methods. The classical karate of the future should be a karate of research and intelligent training. It should be mentally, morally and physically healthy. This is getting kinda long, sorry.
;)

Paul Adamson

Tatsu
6th June 2002, 08:58
Traditional karate does not live outside the boundaries of change. Even those styles claiming to be classical have evolved beyond the traditional sense of the word.

Many "advanced" minded folks claim that traditon is always endangered. Well, I agree it is, and it will always be that way. In the same token, natural evolution can't always be applied to the contrivances of mankind. There are only so many empty-handed ways to hurt, maim or kill a person.

New and improved has been the maxim since the Industrial Revolution: Heck, since the beginning of human history. What the ignorant fail to recognize is that traditional karate, like all things, changes a bit more with each successive generation. People are bigger, faster, healthier, have modern science to work with and can witness any style or train in it if they want to, at least in the USA.

But that's another thing. These Sport Billy types claim that their methods are the best for real self-defense and as a means to achieve that ultra competitive, dog eat dog junk that modern society espouses. I say BS! Their supposed revolutionary ideas of cross-training and MMAs are older than the names of the arts themselves. Most Okinawan teachers encouraged and often trained in other systems or with other instructors/practitoners. Just look at the history.

Ain't nothing new under the sun. Capitalism allows opportunists and parasites to play on the fears of the unknowing. They are doing old things in new ways, that's it.

So my answer to your question about where karate is going is this: I don't know. I do know where my karate is and where its gonna stay. In me. In the end I think that that is what real karate deserves. To be cherished by the few who get it and to pass on that respect of a beautiful tadition of self-betterment to fellow worthy, aware and appreciative folks. I hope traditional karate never becomes popular, commercialized, trite and watered-down. I don't think I have to worry about that though. Most people will never 'get it', no matter how many lives they live. Later...

kenshorin
6th June 2002, 20:25
I think that a little bit of everything applies. I think a lot of people are interested in continuing research into the past, and looking at the roots of what it is that they do, while at the same time, leaving room for improvement with new methods etc.

Just like anything, you want to look into the past and take lessons learned from those examples so as to not have to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak, but at the same time you are always breaking new ground which past precedent doesn't quite cover.

As new equipment and methods are developed, they can be integrated into what we do without losing the "concept" of the tradition. Only stubborn people want things to stay 100% the same. (but there are enough of them in this world.)

kusanku
6th June 2002, 23:54
Would have to say here, I think the arts, not only but including the Okinawan ones, are heading more towards inclusivity, of principles from science, other arts, and modern necessities of time limits, exercise needs, and self defense.

This also includes more research into past methods, and more knowledge of medical breakthroughs as they happen.

Think maybe, we are completing a circle, and will bring martial arts into the future integrating scientific with ancient methods.

Hope so, anyway.Thanks for bringing this up, and guys, I like it here, feel right at home.

PingAnTu
7th June 2002, 09:01
"To be cherished by the few who get it and to pass on that respect of a beautiful tadition of self-betterment to fellow worthy, aware and appreciative folks. I hope traditional karate never becomes popular, commercialized, trite and watered-down. I don't think I have to worry about that though. Most people will never 'get it', no matter how many lives they live. Later..."

This is what I'm talking about. I'm sure Mr. Tatsu is a good martial artist but he surely believes he has the most authentic style and that he "gets it" far better than the average bear. How can Karate grow with this type of distinctly Asian attitude? Newsflash... it takes time and effort for most American people to be able to appreciate traditional/classical styles. Karate should and CAN and IS watered down for the beginner and the uninitiated. We should not smugly write off people by saying that we get it and they don't. That's what most Okinawans did when Americans began to study in the 60's.

It is true that most people don't get it, but so what? Maybe that's because smug people don't break it down and explain it to them. OR, they don't break it down in order to eventually LEAD them to a more comprehensive understanding.

However, there are alot more people that "get it" in this world than most people realize. I realized as a martial arts student in the Taiwanese MA community that the Chinese are growing TOGETHER instead of apart. The old attitude that my style is best is disappearing. As styles open up, they are realizing that there are many styles that are good. In one of my Taiji clubs there where very talented and serious Shaolin, white crane, long fist, Shuai Jiao (grappling), etc... all of whom "got it" to the Nth degree.

In short, I stand that karate should go in many directions because it is a very rich art and there are more ways than one to practice it. like the MA guys in Taiwan, karate should grow together and seek to help everybody "get it".

Paul Adamson

Hank Irwin
18th June 2002, 03:36
Wow!! To say the least, let's not get into talking down to each other. It has taken place too many times here. Is this not some of the very research spoken of? We all train, to what degree is different, but the basics are the same, life protection. Weather it be for yourself or for the sake of others. Sports MA are just that SPORTS, they work on the unsuspecting street thug only to a degree. VanDam Ryu will only get you so far, then hurt. Life protection is not only for the un-initiated but the experienced as well. Experience against another well trained Warrior is the only way to survive, one should never think technique was derived only to thwart simple thugs, it was also to defend against another skillful warrior. This type of thing is what is being lost to MA's. The original intent. To the common eye a demonstration of kata is not that impressive, but to another practioner quite different. I think the "art" in MA's has gone a little too far. There is nothing artful 'bout a busted body. I can agree with TatsuSan about getting it. I got it a long time ago. I have had many come visit me to see what I am talking about, only a few have stuck around. It isn't you, it's the way you take and who guides you, Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese whatever. I myself personally think MA's are headed for dire times. Why? Look at Man, he is never satisfied. There are too many bad teachers making a bad mark for themselves, in turn, making it even harder for real Teachers to teach without ramification, suits, liabilities and such. MA has turned into a business, big business. Everybody wants to be big rich guy. I'll settle for simple things myself. You can't put a price tag on that.

Tatsu
19th June 2002, 01:53
Originally posted by PingAnTu
"To be cherished by the few who get it and to pass on that respect of a beautiful tadition of self-betterment to fellow worthy, aware and appreciative folks. I hope traditional karate never becomes popular, commercialized, trite and watered-down. I don't think I have to worry about that though. Most people will never 'get it', no matter how many lives they live. Later..."

This is what I'm talking about. I'm sure Mr. Tatsu is a good martial artist but he surely believes he has the most authentic style and that he "gets it" far better than the average bear. How can Karate grow with this type of distinctly Asian attitude? Newsflash... it takes time and effort for most American people to be able to appreciate traditional/classical styles. Karate should and CAN and IS watered down for the beginner and the uninitiated. We should not smugly write off people by saying that we get it and they don't. That's what most Okinawans did when Americans began to study in the 60's.

It is true that most people don't get it, but so what? Maybe that's because smug people don't break it down and explain it to them. OR, they don't break it down in order to eventually LEAD them to a more comprehensive understanding.
Paul Adamson

Fair enuff, brother. I'm not trying to be smug, I'm just giving my perspective. Most of the folks (in fact all of them) that I train with think that I'm a fool for even getting on MAs boards and posting. They say that if people want to be secure in their knowledge, or lack thereof, then so be it. I'm actually really civil compared to a lot of the folks I train with. Most of all I'll tell you what I think about something in your face. Most people will let a sucker go on his/her merry way nodding in agreement, but laughing at them real hard in their head.

Life is not really a conundrum unless you make it one. From the looks of things in the world the human race has accomplished this task. Something as straightforward as what is "block-punch/kick" karate and what is real karate ain't hard to ascertain. Of course you have to have some real-world basis for making such analyses, so people can't be faulted for what they know. If you wanna know the truth, my sensei and I talk often and he always makes sure to let me know that he thinks at least 90% of karate out there is nonfunctional as a true self-preservation system. Karate has been his whole entire (adult) life (as well as his family). He doesn't do it for sport, money, glory, or self-betterment (although that is a side effect of good, smart training), he does it because he loves it, and appreciates others sharing their knowledge with him. He teaches because it helps him to learn, too. He does it for real fighting if that "need" should ever arise.

There are a 1000 reasons to do MAs. In reality those other reasons outside self-protection will fall into place. You may not preach Zen/Ch'an Buddhist philosophies, but you'll probably reach mushin and develop your Ki/Chi anyway, even if that was not your intention. If you train for self-beatings then that is what you'll get. I don't have anything against the karate that I've been privy to observe in my lifetime. I just wish that what I was seeing wasn't all Shotokan-esque or kickboxing influenced. I dunno, that's just my take.

As far as conveying the message. I teach karate all year round to people from all age groups. My dojo won first place overall in the South Texas Regionals (AAU) and the Texas Bay City Regionals. I teach the kids the original Matsumura Seito (kinda' redundant) kata. My sensei said the judges would never dig it. I'm showing him that traditional Okinawan Karate can be much more dynamic than all the Shotokan wanna-bes out there. So I have nothing against tourney stuff, it's just that I won't conform to standardization of kata or bastardization of Hohan Soken's family style. I have too much respect for the man and his willingness to share a sacred familial tradition. So you see I have no trouble conveying the simplicity of this beautiful and savage art so many folks call "kara-te".

Hank: Right on, man. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm glad that I'm not the only crazy hardcore, purist out there.

No offence taken, Paul. I understand what you're saying. If we were to talk in person you would find that I'm not how people here perceive me. I like to be proved wrong, and I have my ideas about what wrong and right are. Don't get angry at my brashness. It's just words. Later and safe training...

Gojute
20th June 2002, 19:40
Hello everyone,

Some thoughts have been rambling in my head so I decided to present them.

The training method of the old ways is based in simplicity and natural movement of the body. The student seeking instruction did as he was instructed without question. THe teacher corrected the student as he saw the need and instruction was based in repetition of basics, drills, and kata.

But few teachers will be able to take this personal method into the modern world because it is much more time demanding. It works when one has a small private group and can devote the time, but with the youth of today are needing much help and good teachers severly outnumbered by demands.

I treasure the old ways.....for it is the way I would wish to train my son or have him trained. But it requires much direct attention and much willingness for the student to follow. People will not follow blindly in this modern age unless they are first confident in the resource. For karate to succeed into this new age it will have to become more scolarly and knowledge based for proper understanding.

Some are making efforts to do this. P. McCarthy is one of these that strives to make things more scolarly. I do not necessarily agree with all his perceptions but I will not take away from him for I do not know him personally. He has done much to advance the martial arts and is deserving distinction.

You don't see the myths coming to life in the people training nowdays, and certain aspects of those myths should be coming out. THe myths help us to understand the old ways even though they are exaggerations of the truth in often cases.

What the problem here is, is that the old understandings are not integrated into this new age correctly. Usually the old ways and knowledge are abandoned in favor of what is viewed as the modern way because people think we are actually smarter and understand more..... hahahah ....what a joke.

This is where the "networking " of knowledge described by my Adamson will come into play.

THe weaving of the old and the new must be very carefully done or the old will be destroyed. The new age will not tolerate blank holes of information in technique like the punch only need address vertical, horizontal, and 3/4 turn. It will demand that the knowledge contained in the full rotation and the seven different positions be there so that the student may choose which will work for them in the long run.

The teachers job will be to guide them to the understanding that only the vertical,horizontal, and 3/4 are predominatly used, and we will have to fill in the voids or holes like "why" are these three are used. The answer, the choice in which method to choose is based on the height of the target and the angle of impact to the opponent.

Again, the teacher will guide to the fact that the simple is the key.

Look at an auto mechanic.... they have a vast ammount of tools that they purchase so that they have the tool available to work on anything and everything. BUt in the end, they almost always resort to a very few common tools. I know a couple whom most would laugh at their tool collection for it is so small.... yet these individuals can fix almost anything with these few, but if someone said in the beginning that so little was all that was needed then the craft would be viewed as too simple and not deserving of pay that could sustain the mechanic. Eventually the mechanics would disappear seeking a living that will sustain them or the craft they love.

This is exactly like karate. THe teachers job is to show the few tools truly needed, but the craft will demand that one possess the knowledge of all the various tools.

People will never believe or understand how complete the art is and how it can accomplish so much with so seemingly little. This will be the new age of karate. If the art cannot make these distinctions and fill these holes then it will continue to degrade becoming nothing but aggression and the true way will die.

I do not mean to make it sound so commercial or hopeless, but true good teachers are becoming rare. Life is demanding too much time to make the dollar. And people are not wanting to even pay the little that would be necessary to maintain a place to train even if one was not attempting to make a livlihood from the art (which most of us don't).

We have told them for so long that it is so simple and they have believed us. SO now there is no value to them. Society is now starting to see the need of guidance for the youth because of all the violence. All that is needed is to show society that the art can be one possibility to feel the void that is needed. Unfortunately all they are seeing is the violent side due to No Holds Barred Fighting and ect., so they don't see it as a cure for the problem but more of another reason for the problem.

I truly do not want the art to become commercial, but we must make changes to make others view the value. THe secret is going to be to elevate the knowledge and understanding. THis is the only hope or answer I see.

THis is my opinion. We are on the same path and we must take the reins and guide it to where it must go. At times this will be with gentleness and slight turning, and at others the spurs will have to be dung in and the beast made to obey. I believe this in my heart and will try to maintain the old ways in the new age.

ROn J. Brookshire JR.

Tatsu
21st June 2002, 01:56
Mr. Brookshire: I agree with your take completely. The modern martial artist must learn to integrate the old with the new without sacrificing the valuable lessons that can be learned from either age.

I am a karateka through and through, but have delved into many modern combatives. I have a solid understanding of BJJ, and use it to complete my fighting knowledge. I also understand that many of the kihon and oyo bunkai of kata are grappling (tuite, tegumi) related. My limited knowledge of grappling arts like Judo and BJJ has allowed me to see the bunkai from different angles.

I'm sorry that I repeated many of the things that others have expressed to me. I was told which styles many Okinawan old-schoolers would classify as "school boy" karate, and I relayed those comments here. I'm afraid that I stepped on a few toes. Matsubayashi Ryu (Mr. Adamson's art of choice, I think) was one of the styles described in this manner to me. My experience with Matsubayashi was not good, but I have all the respect in the world for practitioners like Eihachi Ota, and Shoshin Nagamine. Heck, even Matsumura Seito Stylists (the style I now train in) have argued with me about simple points like how to step correctly. Many of the guys arguing this were students of my sensei, or students of one of his students.

A lot can change in a short time. Especially if the interpretation is a personal one, which it usually is. I don't have anything against any legit traditional karate whatever the style. I just hate it when kickboxers claim to be karateka, or when they have the audacity to put the orthodox ways down. In the end the destiny of MAs lies in the kids. That's why I teach after school karate programs and summer karate day camps. I dilute what I'm taught, but I teach them the traditional kata, and often the bunkai, so they understand how simple yet dangerous real karate can be. Of course to them, sparring is fighting, as it is to most folks. That being said at least I stress the understanding that karate first and foremost is kata, kata, kata. That is what will separate them from the strictly sport oriented, musical forms doing, sequined types.

Laotse
21st June 2002, 05:45
The future will go forward.

Gojute
21st June 2002, 07:44
Originally posted by Laotse
The future will go forward.
Mr.Napier,

Your words are true. We are always moving forward but this does not denote progression. We are on a spiral and certain steps must occur before the circle is complete and we are able to progress to the further levels. Progression can be an illusion, for we will always be destined to return to complete steps that were not completed prior.

The question is the direction of the spiral, are we moving toward growth or toward decline? THe one true fact is that things will continue to move , and if we remain perfectly still they will still continue to carry us along.

Such is life.

ROn J. Brookshire Jr.

PingAnTu
13th July 2002, 06:27
Well, in Okinawa it's important to portray your style as the most authentic or the oldest. If the truth were known, the karate that is done today regardless of style is undoubtedly different than the "original". The reason is that even the original changed in the lifetimes of the big names. Sakugawa learned from Takahara and then Gong XiangJun (kusanku), not to mention Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu and Northern Chinese Spear/Staff. His art was alive and growing throughout his life. Same with Matsumura. They had many students at different times in their lives too.

There are many styles that claim to be the original but none of them are. Some might have more of the pieces but none is original. I can understand that Matsumura Orthodox people claim that their style is the best and that other styles are schoolboy karate. But the truth be known, the people I train with think that their style is authentic. And other styles think that their style is the most authentic. And all the classical styles think "Yea, but ours really IS the most authentic".

As westerners, we need to jump off this train. The future of karate is at stake. If we can't grow together instead of smugly dismissing other styles, the future of karate is bleak indeed. And yes, classical Okinawan stylists can learn from Shotokan and even modern karate. Shotokan stylists are very good at what they do. Right? Can you show me any Okinawan style that develops beginners better than good Shotokan?

Paul Adamson

kusanku
14th July 2002, 06:45
Okinawan Kenpo does it as well. Though Matsubayashi Ryu is somewhat difficult for beginners due to its complexity. So I recommend Shotokan for beginners, After a short four years of Judo, , and that after some Taiji for foundation.

But I digress.:D

Tatsu
17th July 2002, 01:16
Originally posted by PingAnTu

And yes, classical Okinawan stylists can learn from Shotokan and even modern karate. Shotokan stylists are very good at what they do. Right? Can you show me any Okinawan style that develops beginners better than good Shotokan?

Paul Adamson

I would agree with you if you were speaking of the Shotokan described in Funakoshi's "Karate Jutsu" before the stances and effective techs were deleted and altered. I have yet to be impressed by any Shotokan guys. Kobayashi (Shidokan and Shorinkan), Seibukan, Sukunaihayashi, Chubu, Oyata's Kenpo and even Higaonna Goju produce better tournament stylists and beginner karateka than Shotokan. Yes Shotokan guys are tuff and rigid, but speed and relaxation will win the battle everytime. Other than Ohshima's group I don't think that Shotokan has anything to teach me. I do a MORE original and street effective style of ShuriTe called Shorin Ryu. Why do deep stances and linear techs only? I don't need the conditioning there is hojo undo and weightlifting for that.

Ota's Matsubayashi Ryu is awesome. I have nothing bad to say about Matsubayashi and would recommend it over Shotokan anyday. Later and thanks for the friendly chat!

Tatsu
17th July 2002, 01:21
Originally posted by kusanku
Okinawan Kenpo does it as well. Though Matsubayashi Ryu is somewhat difficult for beginners due to its complexity. So I recommend Shotokan for beginners, After a short four years of Judo, , and that after some Taiji for foundation.

But I digress.:D

You are right on point sensei! The transition should be hard, to hard-soft, to soft, relaxed and pliable (mentally and physically). How will you ever learn that from a rigid regimented style (generally) like Shotokan? Just the Judo and Tai Chi is enough! Why would you mess things up by training a combat sport (you got Judo already) like Shotokan?! Peace brothers....