PDA

View Full Version : Faster than any kick or punch



mushinmaster
6th June 2002, 19:15
What type of training do you use to become faster than any kick or punch?

CEB
6th June 2002, 20:25
Sinanju

Bustillo, A.
6th June 2002, 20:58
red cape...



www.steadytraining.com

mushinmaster
6th June 2002, 23:31
Wow. You guys are worse than me. Everyone says I take things too literally, lol. What I mean is, what exercises do you do to work on your defense - evasion, body movement, parrying, blocking - so that you can use these tactics to sucessfully avoid getting hit?

exercises to learn timing and rythm and whatnot???

Do you worry about this:)?

Shitoryu Dude
7th June 2002, 00:10
I depend on overwhelming my potential opponent with an air of impending violence beyond comprehension. I back it up with being very large, reminding many people of a sudden wall of really pissed off white guy standing in front of them. :eek:

If all else fails, quickly direct their attention away from you and either run away or hit them in the back of the head. :mad:

:beer:

mushinmaster
7th June 2002, 02:02
yeah dude, that's the main strategy where I train.

Hit first and hit hard.

That's why I started this thread, lol. Gotta be good at offense and defense...

Khahan
7th June 2002, 11:02
My art, by nature is a prepatory art. We use our own body positioning to dictate what others will throw, to dictate where they will throw it and how they will throw it.
At the same time, you can read their body language to figure out when they will throw it and if they are going to do what you are trying to get them to do.
Actually anybody can do this, you just have to know what to look for.

kusanku
7th June 2002, 11:08
Look! A UFO! 'Wham."

Bustillo, A.
7th June 2002, 12:00
Greg Hoover,

You mentioned, that your system teaches; 'you use your body positioning to dictate what they throw and how they throw it...'

Please explain what on earth you are talking about. At times , if the opponent telegraphs, yes, we can pick off and intercept, attacks.

Aside from that what did 'Robert Houdin' teach in that system of yours.


www.SteadyTraining.com

Budoka 34
7th June 2002, 13:12
We do a lot of Tai Sabaki and interception drills. I prefer to turn every blocking motion into a counter or multiple counters when possible. I work on developing flow from one technique to the next, each setting the opponent up for the next. I also enjoy blending drills similar to those found in Aikido, just alot more atemi! :D

Oh yea, don't forget lots of Plyometrics for speed and explosive power! :D

:smilejapa

Sochin
7th June 2002, 13:18
I use timing - it is called pre-emptive first strike! :)

You can "lead" (not 'force') someone to attack in a predictable way by leaving a hole in your defenses that is a trap. Most styles teach this, most students learn this, very few can do this when adrenalized.

(I never know if we are talking sparring or fighting, :( )

Khahan
7th June 2002, 15:05
Antohy,
I think Sochin put it better when he said you can lead somebody rather than force somebody.
But yes, as mentioned above, by using body posturing and 'giving' openings, you can lead your opponent to, at the very least, go for more specific areas of your body.
Sagasuhito,

What if a heated discussion turns to someone going for your throat
This is the perfect time to use the prepatory arts. If you know/think the person is going to go for your throat, like in a choke, the drop your chin some and make the throat a smaller less likely target. When you do this, realize that movement puts your nose out there. This means your nose is sticking out which is more likely to attract your opponents attention (on a sub-concsious level) so you can be prepared for an attack at the nose.
You are strong from the right side? Turn your body so your right leg and arm are more forward.
The guy is left handed? (you saw him drinking w/ his left hand, reaching in his pocket w/ his left hand maybe?) so you position yourself in a spot that makes his left side more difficult to use.
None of this stuff is garaunteed, but it gives you that much more of an edge.
Now the time comes to actually throw down. How is a punch thrown? Most people actually put their opposite hand forward, if even for a split second so they can draw it back when the extend their punching hand. Right there, you see that opposing hand extend out, you act.
This brings us back to the original question. YOu may not be physically faster than your opponent, but if you know what to look for, you can certainly appear faster.

mushinmaster
7th June 2002, 18:43
so specifically what exercises do you guys do to develop these responses?

kusanku
7th June 2002, 22:20
Originally posted by Sagasuhito
Kusanku (Good One UFO)

How about your shoes untied hiza geri.

In regards to the prepatory art are you able to Posture yourself in a postion at all times? What if a heated discussion turns to someone going for your throat? I agree we can at times position ourselves into making others throw techniques or attacks we can easily see, feel and counter but to rely solely on this is kinda dangerous?

Regards

Mike Mitchell

Hi Mike, yes, that one you mention is also good.As to preparatory art, I realize you are asking the other guy, I wanted to say that in close, it is impossible to block a fast jab or sucker punch unless you are 'set, ' and even then they get you most of the time.

Control of distance is vital, in self defense, I will first step away to get distance if possible.If not, I put both hands up fast, open palms out, to intercept whatever is coming and turn hips sideways to avoid the kicks, and knees bend slightly, but really, if you can you should make angle and distance, a priority, forty five degrees and ten feet away is good,,then you can block what they come with, and counter.

When you step get your hands up, general proinciple, two hands block better than one, use a whuffle ball and throw it at face and stomach of trainee to get speed in defense.

Now,what if you can't get distance, and don't wat to strike at beginning, here's what:If the person steps across a line that would enable him to hit you in one more step, and he is coming to hurt you, and you can't at the same time step to angle in close, or away to angle or dside, or finally, back (in would measny you attack him back, which might not be a bad idea), but if he crosses that line, you don't wait for his attack, you then hit him.That is: He is attacking and he comes in, he gets to the place where with one more step he is on you, you hit him now.Or kick, or whatever the move is gonna be.

Otherwise, he may be faster than you.Self defense, is not sa gunfight where you wait until he draws and beat him. Neither for that matter is sparring, if you don't know opponent, assume he is faster and better.He gets close enough to where with one more step he is ranged to hit you, hit him.This is not legal advice, it may get you in trouble, but its meant to say that if your life or safety is endangered, this is the last distance you have to intercept with certainty an attacker before he destroys you.

In close, we can all be hit, and can all hit.Look at Boxers.Who never gets hit?Besides the guy that ko's the opponent with his first punch, and punches first.Oh.:D

mushinmaster
8th June 2002, 01:39
Originally posted by Sochin
(I never know if we are talking sparring or fighting, :( )

I'm definatly talkinga bout fighting!

Bustillo, A.
8th June 2002, 06:13
Greg Hoover,


Sounds like too many what if's. And, too much 'suppose this, when he stands like that, I do like this, so he will, maybe, do this , if , maybe I do that...

However, if that is what they teach you, so be it.

And, the name is Antonio . No 'Y' in my name

Budoka 34
8th June 2002, 23:11
Speaking of controling your opponents actions or reactions. I recently had a discussion with an Aikido student who had recently had an altercation. He had been told many times that if being violently confronted offer the aggresor a hand (as in hold your hand out). When they grab your hand respond as you have been taught. Simple.

Well a guy got in his face talking smack(I think it was over a parking spot), he (The Aiki student) told the gentleman he didn't want any trouble and held up his hands (about shoulder height according to him), the guy bit! He grabbed the Aikido student who proceeded to do a tenkan (hope thats how you spell it) and kotegashi. The guy dropped to the ground and was quickly submitted. The Aikido student said the guy could not apologize enough! :D

I know its not exactly what we're talking about, but what the hey?
:D

:smilejapa

mushinmaster
9th June 2002, 01:51
what if the guy didn't bite?

Laotse
9th June 2002, 02:08
Originally posted by mushinmaster
Hit first and hit hard.



This is often a suboptimal solution. For instance, if you do not want to go to jail and be subject to certain-to-lose civil lawsuits.

I am thinking of a very large -- twice my weight -- individual who is a potential threat. I have been warned that he is dangerous, perhaps psychotic, known to attack people, and a possible danger to me personally. Not a whole lot of people know of his propensity, though. How to deal with him?

It could happen alone, in a parking lot, perhaps. In that case I have him. His weight is due to being grossly obese, so I have a considerable maneuvering advantage and can most likely outpunch him; I know his balance sucks. Then I get to attack first, if necessary.

But it could easily happen in front of a lot of witnesses, including some attorneys who are his friends. Whoops! Then I have to wait for him to attack first. Then speed, evasion, perhaps luring him to a bad attack are critical.

In other words, to win ON ALL FRONTS means using the most dangerous weapon you have (hopefully) -- your brain. Hitting first is often the dumbest thing you can do.

Khahan
9th June 2002, 02:23
Boy you guys are literal here sometimes.
That is not all my art studies or looks at, any more so than punching hard and first would be all somebody else's art looks at.
I'm just relating 1 aspect of my training as it applies to this thread.
As for the "what if's", its actually just the opposite. I don't care about what I could do if this happens and what I might do if that that happens. I care about what IS happening, no if's, ands or buts about it.
I can look at somebody and know what weapons they have available and what weapons are effectively out of use. Plain and simple. When I know what weapons an opponent does have available, I can also know where they will be used. While that heated argument in the bar that so many people like to talk about is going on, you take care of all this stuff.
After a while, this becomes second nature.
Now, do I rely on this to win the fight? Hell no. I rely on my fists, elbows, feet etc to win the fight.
I rely on the prepatory part of the fight to avoid the fight altogether, and failing that, to give me that much more of an advantage. Being 5'7", 140 lbs, I'll take every advantage I can get.
A lot of it is actually common sense. You see a guy in an argument constantly clenching his right fist and pumping that fist like he is going to launch it, do you stand in its path, or do you move to a spot where your opponent can't effectively employ a right?
That's prepatory. My art just takes a bit closer look at it than most other arts.

mushinmaster
9th June 2002, 04:50
Laotse - every study i have read has said a street fight will usually leave two people in the hospital - one with a concusion and the other with a broken fist.

sucker punch. done. I'm more worried about my well being than I am about some lawsuit.

kusanku
9th June 2002, 07:33
Alex, forget reading studies.They weren't there when I was in some situations, nor probably when anyone else was.:DIf you punch right your hand won't break.

Greg, I have heard of schools where things like you study are taught, and in Chinese arts as well as boxing, reading the opponent's body language is a skill, but not an infallible one.

Guy who said about lawsuits, well soken , too.

In self defense, which is not necessarily fighting, if you can get distance, back away to an angle with hand up and in fromnt, palms either facing you or out.Facing is better case he has a knife, out is better for anyone witnessing.Get distance, , don't get in an obvious stance, bend knees slightly, weight either even, on more rear leg if going to kick, or front if going to punch.

If you can get a good distance, and still can't run away, you may well be able to block the first attack and maybe throw hoim off balance, and get away. If not, then you must do soething before he gets to throw many more things.

Guy who said sucker punch, you are Evil, do you hear? Evil!:D We don't, officially, do any such things as that, we only do preemptive strikes when we fear for our lives and safety.Remember that.

Fighting strategy is one thing, self defense another,sparring yet can be like one or the other or neither depending on rules of that game.

In fighting, go straight in fast as you can and drop the opponent and yes, you hit him first, fast and often.Ortake him down or what ever it is.

In sparring, you follow the contest rules and use them to greatest advantage and position so refs can see what you did.Be mnore aggressive and outpoint the other guy if you can't defeat decisively.

In a fight, you must win, so go in to him, turn in on him, and whale on him with great effect.

In self defense, you must survive, so rule one is, there is only one rule, Do what you must to survive.

Rule two, is if you have a choice, run away.

Rule three, is if you don't have a choice, get distance and defend counter. This means if he comes in at you and you intercept with yours first, so be it, fine.If not,m block or deflect, or absorb as you counter.Get away as soon as you can/

Final rule, four, and many think self defense has no rules but it does, legal rules,if you can't get away, and you fear for your life or safety, do whatever you can to stop the attack.

Don't stand right in a guys face and try to block, you won't be fast enough unless you are, then fine. But how do you know till he moves?Get away from him and get your hands and arms up to protect yourself, and look for a way oput, and if you don't find one, then defend yourself as best you can.

If he's in your face, there may be no time, and you must do as best you can.Then, survive.If that means you hit first, you may face legal action, but there's a saying about that.You do, most places here at least, have a right to defend yourself with reasonable force, but that means different things in different places and different situations, and be prepared to face charges if it ever happens.

Thing is, no one has a right to attack you unprovoked, and if they do, you have an ethicalk and in most states legal right to self defense but this may mean you run if you can, and thats always the best option.

Regards

Khahan
9th June 2002, 13:45
We have a saying at my school to deal with the legal ramifications of our actions:
I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

mushinmaster
10th June 2002, 00:13
Khahan - great point - i've heard that one many times

Well, what I expected to get was what type of training you guys do to develop timing, responses, implementing your interceptions, parries, evasions and coordinating them with your counterstrikes:D

Kusanku, thanks for the pointers. That's pretty much my strategy, with a few more details:karatekid

Luckily I've learned some lessons very well, and have never put myself in any situations.

Budoka 34
10th June 2002, 11:14
Alex:

I guess if you offer it and he doesn't bite maybe there is no need to fight. This person just offered you an honorable out.
I had an incident last year, a gentleman was upset that I pulled into the gas station in front of him. I really didn't see him waiting. He spouted off for several seconds about my mother and I having a very close relationship and then got out of his truck. I turned to face him, raised my hands palms out and said I was sorry but that I had not seen him waiting.
He moved closer and made several comments about my lack of observation. As he closed I dropped my hands looked him firmly in the eyes and asked him if he really thought it was worth dying over. He stopped dead in his tracks. Now understand I'm not a big guy, 6ft but pretty thin. This guy was not little either. He asked what I meant and began looking me up and down. I simply stated that if it was not worth dying over it was not worth fighting over.
To my surprise he smiled, waved his hands and walked back to his truck in silence. I offered and he didn't bite.

End of Story. :)

:smilejapa

Khahan
10th June 2002, 15:47
Sometimes, its not so much what you say, but how you say it.
Good illustration of that, Alex.

mushinmaster
10th June 2002, 16:21
If he was waiting, and you realized it after pulling in, why didn't you just move?:D




When they grab your hand respond as you have been taught. Simple.

This was what I was talking about. For these poor, unfortunate Aikido students, who only know how to respond if grapped, what if the guy just decks them? Not a very good way to train:(.

Budoka 34
11th June 2002, 10:17
Alex:
To be honest, I didn't and still don't think the guy was waiting. They were parked by the pay phones and didnt pull toward my pump til I was out of the car. He didn't say anything until I was already pumping the gas.
Remember, I live in the mountains and some times these guys just think they need to prove themselves.

p.s. Did I mention he had his girlfriend/wife in the truck?:D

:smilejapa

mushinmaster
11th June 2002, 14:41
Hmmmmm... Well in that case, I would've done the only next logical thing, sprayed gas all over him, held up a lighter and said run, run like Forest you asshole:D:D

Budoka 34
11th June 2002, 15:31
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Then I would be as big an ass as him.

:smilejapa

mushinmaster
11th June 2002, 16:48
:smilejapa