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Jody Holeton
8th August 2000, 14:21
Dear all,



I know this is a silly question BUT I've heard some American military branches push certain martial arts more than others...


Also
Is there anyone here I can talk to about current military training and about which branch is the best for me getting to Japan?


Thanks I appreciate it---Jody Holeton

Jeff Cook
8th August 2000, 17:52
"Which branch of the service is best for martial arts training?"

None of them. Go to a dojo. There are no service-sanctioned martial arts programs. There are guidelines for CQC training, but no real effort to standardized the training. There is also no real emphasis put on it, and hardly nobody does it.

You will find some individual units that teach one thing or another occasionally, but they do this on their own, and the programs don't last very long.

As for your other questions, you will get quick and accurate answers from a recruiter.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Joseph Svinth
8th August 2000, 22:34
As a Marine combat engineer, your chances are about 1 in 3 of being sent to Okinawa. However, you probably won't get much time out in town unless you can wangle a job in special services, and that's not easy.

Note that I said special services, not Special Forces, as the job you want is in the base gym. Lots of well known Olympic athletes and famous martial arts types spent their military time assigned to the base gym, where they protected democracy by handing out towels and learning/teaching judo, karate, TKD, whatever.

BTW, if you *are* Olympic caliber, all branches of the service have some very competent boxing and wrestling squads.

Overall, though, I'd guess the Air Force is probably your best bet, as airmen tend to have reasonably regular working hours, thus allowing them to spend free time in the gym. Combat arms and combat service support spend way too much time in the field, and in the Navy you're often six months on the boat.

socho
11th August 2000, 00:59
If you are talking about joining the military to get to Japan, I agree with an earlier comment - talk to a recruiter. To expand a bit, all the services have bases in Japan, depends on where you want to be. There are good sized Air Force and Navy bases near Tokyo, plus a small Army post. Lots of Marine stuff on Okinawa. If you go Navy it would be difficult to train regularly as you would probably spend regular long stretches at sea. The Army base isn't that busy, if you are a logistics type (supply), plus they are offering decent bonuses. Just make sure that whatever you want makes it into your contract. Good luck.

Jody Holeton
14th August 2000, 00:51
Dear Socho,


I'm thinking about joining up, the Air Force sounds great (yes I've talked to a recruiter). I really want to get back to Japan. If I do go into the Air Force and go thru OTS what are my chances of getting based in Japan (Yokotta sounds great)?

Any advice would be appreciated--Jody Holeton

Joseph Svinth
14th August 2000, 11:23
You can improve your chances of going where you want by making sure you sign up for the proper occupational specialty. For example, if you are a Marine combat engineer, the three places in the world you go (other than on float) is Okinawa, Camp Pendleton, and Camp Lejeune. So, if the USAF and Army bases around Tokyo are, for example, supply units, then you'd best have a supply rating.

Next, GET IT IN WRITING. Recruiters won't necessarily lie, but as a rule one can trust a boxing promoter, snake oil salesman, or televangelist about as far as a military recruiter who finds himself one enlistment short for the second month in a row.

After that, don't get your hopes up too high. After all, they only promised to get you there. Once you're where they said they would send you, there is absolutely nothing saying that the post commander doesn't restrict you to base (liberty is a privilege, not a right); make you work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, 364 days per year (leave is not always granted); prohibit fraternization with civilians (increasingly common in Okinawa these days); send you to Bosnia or Saudi for most of your tour; or all of the above. The military fulfilled its legal obligation by putting you on an airplane that touched down in Japan; after that, everything else you do happens at the whim of some bird-colonel clerk in the Pentagon.

Anyway, if your sole reason for joining the military is to get to Japan, figure out a different way of getting there. Despite the hype spread by recruiters and the Madison Avenue ad agencies, the military remains a calling rather than a job; a life choice, not an adventure.

Jeff Cook
14th August 2000, 12:54
Jody,

Air Force? Best Wishes from an Army guy!
http://www.wabujitsu.com/wabujitsu/!aimhigh.jpg
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mark Brecht
14th August 2000, 20:34
Jody,

do you have a college degree???

Are you aware of the jet program???

Jody Holeton
15th August 2000, 01:01
Dear Mr.Brecht,



Yes I am very aware of the JET program (I have friends in it doing translation and "teaching").

I am looking for long-term and professional employment. JET ALT's are not teachers they are class aides. It is 3-years max at Japan's minimum wage cap for foreign employment, of course you are tax exempt for 2 years too.

I think they only way (for me at least) to learn a koryu AND they JAPANESE language is too stay in Japan for a long time.

I came to this conclusion after studying Japanese for 4 years in college AND studying at JCMU for a year in Hikone, Japan.


Also in the military I can learn discipline, direction and DO something good for my country.

Just my thoughts--Jody Holeton

Mark Brecht
15th August 2000, 14:40
I agree with you on the JET program. I assumed you were looking for a structured and supported way to make a living in Japan. Which i think Jet would be a good possibility. If money is a motivating factor to you, you should reconsider the military (especially as i do not think you would have the free time as e.g. under the jet program, also i would not trust any recruiters promises of being stationed in Japan, especially for your entire time in the military). As far as i heard Jet allows you lots of free time, in which you can make extra money.

Regarding the military, you have to be realistic (and not influenced by "GI Jane"), you might want to look at things like "Tailhook" to get a complete picture of the military institutions, which go behind the recruiter flyers and broschures. There is nothing wrong with the military, i am just not sure if you should chose it as a way to get to Japan. I think there are many more possibilities out there, which would fit better to the things you wish to accomplish here.

Good Luck,







[Edited by Mark Brecht on 08-15-2000 at 08:42 AM]

Jody Holeton
15th August 2000, 16:55
Dear Mr.Brecht,



Money? Of course money is important, especially in Japan. MY main motivating factor is getting back to Japan long-term.
I'm talking 5-10 years, not the Japanese English teacher trend of hiring people for a year then sending them home (paying them minimum wage for foreigners as decreed by law).


I think JET is a great program BUT look at the drop out rate for its ALT's. I have friends who have dropped out for very good reasons. Thats a different thread altogether.....



Is the Air Force a good way to go to Japan? Is the Air Force a good way to go? OTS sounds really challenging and it seems alot more secure than most jobs available nowadays.


Can any service men tell me of their experiences in teh military overseas?

THX--any help would be appreciated

P.S. Mr.Brecht, GI Jane? Tailhook? What does that have to do with me? My family is very pro military, my Grandpa was in the NAvy at Pearl Harbor, and my father was in the marines during the Vietnam war. Dont people serve their country anymore?

scoundrel
15th August 2000, 17:12
Dear Jody,

If you want to get to Japan, Air Force is probably the way to go. They have bases in Japan and in Okinawa. For a job that will give you max time to train, you probably want to get into some sort of clerical job. Now mind you, there are no guarantees of getting to Japan if you enlist in the Air Force. Uppermost is the "needs of the Air Force" for assignment consideration.

WolfHound
15th August 2000, 17:34
Hi Jody,

I was in the Air Force for 4 years ('88-92) and though I was never stationed in Japan I know a several people who were or were military brats in Okinawa. The largest AF base in Japan is Kadena and it is on Okinawa (nice base I visited it while on vacation in '97).

AF basic training was a joke when I was in. The final test was doing 20 push-ups 20 sit-ups and running 1.5 miles in under 12 minutes. After that all we had to do was run 1.5 miles in under X minutes (based on your age) one a year to prove fitness. From what I understand it's been reduced to riding a exercise bike for X minutes instead of the running. Any other ex-AF personnel able to verify that?

I think the normal tour for overseas is one year (though you could get extensions) also I know of a few people (civilians) get government jobs on base after they get out to stay over there.

Air Force has the best chow halls and gym complexes(IMHO). With most jobs running 8 hours shifts there is plenty of spare time to advance yourself.

If you go in as enlisted after you do the initial screening you can lock yourself into a field (electronics) or a specific vocation (computer repair) and then you wait for an opening in that field. While you're in training you'll be asked where you want to be stationed (top 5 choices) and if there's a fit they'll try to locate you there. If your choices are overseas chances are better that you will get it (most people want to stay stateside near family).

Sorry this was so long winded and I hope it helps.


Best Regards,
Clark Williamson

Jody Holeton
15th August 2000, 19:46
Dear all,


I'm looking to go for officer training. Learn leadership, drive and do something for my country.


Anyone with Air Force officer experience?

Thanks--Jody Holeton

William
15th August 2000, 20:58
Hi Jody,

I'm an NCO in the Army, and for what its worth, I like your attitude about serving your country. Despite the naysayers and headlines, most soldiers are smart, tough, willing to work hard for good leaders and capable of accomplishing things that most people couldn't even dream of. There are far worse things to devote your life to. Good luck - we could use more officers, and enlisted, with a strong desire to serve their country, rather than themselves.

William Johnson
Ft. Bragg, NC

MikeCallender
20th August 2000, 04:56
Jody
I am an officer in the AF and also live in Okinawa. First and foremost I agree with Mr. Johnson, we could use a person like you. Secondly there are no guarantees when you sign up. Selecting the right career field may help you get stationed at particular bases (as Mr. Svinth suggested) but it doesn't always work out. Career fields like medical, information management, communications, and operations management are common across the board and one of those my help give you flexibility in order to get stationed where you want. Others do not. For example systems acquisition is great if you only want to work in the CONUS, but won't help you get stationed overseas.
There are three USAF bases in Japan: Kadena in Okinawa, Yokota outside of Tokyo and Misawa in northern Japan. The Marine Corps was a multitude of bases in Okinawa and almost every career Marine will serve at least one tour "on the Rock". Typically unaccompanied tours are 2 years for USAF personnel. If you are married then you can look at 3-4 years. During your tour you will be given the option of extending or signing up for a consecutive overseas tour (in place or at another overseas base). Personally I extended my first tour from 2 years to almost 4. Currently I am back in Okinawa a second time, this time for 3 years. Bottom line is once you are stationed in Japan it is fairly easy to stay.
I would be happy to provide you more information if you like. Please email me privately.
Your original post concerned martial arts in the military. The AF does not teach combatives as part of any AF related training program. Fitness Centers and Community/Recreation Centers will offer martial arts classes, but they are not a requirement for AF training/employment. The Army and the Marine Corp do have CQC schools, which are very good. As an officer, I am not sure you would "need" to attend one of these schools. Typically the slant of the school is to the enlisted career fields that require that type of training (special forces, personal security, MP/SP). Good luck!
Michael Callender
Capt, USAF
Kadena Air Base, Okinawa Japan

Jeff Cook
20th August 2000, 12:50
CPT Callender,

Great post! Thanks for your contribution.

One bit of clarification, however. The US Army does NOT have any CQC schools (can't speak for the USMC, but if they do, it is a very well-kept secret!). Individual units occassionally teach CQC, but there is no proponent CQC agency/school/academy within the Army. Units that decide to teach CQC may or may not use the FM 21-150 as a guide; to coin a slick phrase, "there is no controlling legal authority." Thus we end up seeing "CQC" taught at unit-level that bears little resemblance to CQC (the 18th Airborne Corps' teaching of watered-down GJJ is a prime example of a poor CQC program).

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Yojimbo558
21st August 2000, 21:58
Hi Jody,

I served four years in the Marine Corps, and was deployed to Okinawa from Dec '88 - Dec '89. While I was there we had numberous deployments, and I didn't have the opportunity to link up with a local dojo.

However, many people in the military are very interested in martial arts. If you aren't able to attend a dojo you still have access to numberous people who can help out with training.

In regards to Jeff's query, when I served I was shown some basic hand-to-hand in boot camp...and that was pretty much it ( after I left the service a friend showed me a Marine Manual showing several jujutsu techniques that neither I nor any of the people I served with were taught...I had learned several of those techniques either when I did some kung fu prior to service or from Japanese systems after I studied after leaving active service ).
Never the less it's relatively easy to hook up with your fellow Marines etc.. to practise and enhance your training. If you're an officer then it'll be even easier as you'll be able to incorporate it into your company's PT.

In regards to wanting to serve your country...the military regardless of which service you pick needs you and more people like you. The time I served was priceless, and I wouldn't change it for the world. The opportunity to see, and do things and to be apart of something that makes a difference is outstanding.

Eric Bookin

George Kohler
30th August 2000, 08:50
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
One bit of clarification, however. The US Army does NOT have any CQC schools (can't speak for the USMC, but if they do, it is a very well-kept secret

Hi Jeff,

I don't usually show up in here very often, but decided to see what John Lindsey was posting (other thread), which was quite amusing, BTW.

From reading your post I'm assuming that you are talking about H2H? If you are, then I agree. If you are talking about engaging someone within 10 meters, then you are mistaken. There is a CQB school that is based in Fort Bragg. Matter of fact, John Lindsey also went to this school, back in the late 70's or early 80's. And this school is still being taught.

Also, just before John Lindsey's Ranger years (just a couple of years :) ), there was a school based on H2H, that was taught by Michael Echanis. But this school didn't last too long, though. I think John L might have some stories about this school, since he had a buddy that went to it.

grpenland
31st August 2000, 00:29
Hi Jody,

I'm a member of the 562nd Air Force Band (Air National Guard)located in Southern California. I'm not sure if the Air Force will guarantee a duty station (Japan). You should ask a trustworthy recruiter whether they do this or not. When I served in the Army, they were guaranteeing duty stations at least for the first year.

I don't think, however, that you'll be able to stay at a duty station for a 5 to 10 year stint unless your military occupation is hard to come by at that station. It may work different for commissioned officers and you may be granted an extension by your superiors.

It sounds like your serious about using the military as a vehicle for getting you to Japan. Some of the others in this thread are suggesting finding a recruiter you can trust and they're right. You also want a recruiter that is very knowledgeable who can give you straight answers.

I wish you the best and maybe I'll be saluting you someday!

G. Randall Penland

Jeff Cook
31st August 2000, 02:01
George,

For the purposes of this bulletin board, I consider H2H to be CQC. Point-shooting and other weapons for use within 20 feet, as well as certain MOUT tactics, are taught in other programs outside of the H2H techniques. I suppose technically any type of combat within a 20-foot range could be considered CQC, but when teaching at unit-level or at a MOUT training facility, unarmed tactics are almost always separated from armed tactics. In fact, many programs that are called "CQC" do not include any H2H, in which case, in my opinion, this would rule them out as being CQC schools.

I am aware of Fort Bragg having MOUT training, but again the H2H is practically non-existent. They do train in some CQB tactics (such as room-to-room clearing techniques), but again, without any significant H2H training, I would rule it out as a CQC school. In fact, it is referred to as MOUT training, if we are talking about the same school.

Please let me know otherwise - I have been emailing my military counterparts for years, doing internet searches, etc, and I have yet to come across an Army-sanctioned school that teaches CQC as I define it.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

George Kohler
31st August 2000, 02:13
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
I am aware of Fort Bragg having MOUT training, but again the H2H is practically non-existent. They do train in some CQB tactics (such as room-to-room clearing techniques), but again, without any significant H2H training, I would rule it out as a CQC school. In fact, it is referred to as MOUT training, if we are talking about the same school.

Please let me know otherwise - I have been emailing my military counterparts for years, doing internet searches, etc, and I have yet to come across an Army-sanctioned school that teaches CQC as I define it.

Hi Jeff,

That's what I thought you were talking about, but just wanted to make sure.

When I was in, it was not refered to as MOUT training. Actually, the name of the school was SOT (not to be confused as SOTIC, which is a totally different course) and is taught by Special Warfare Center.

Joseph Svinth
31st August 2000, 12:02
Hey, I used to train with the sots. A fifth of Jack Daniels a day, and two during parties, that was them. Same bunch?

Jeff Cook
31st August 2000, 13:13
Joe,

Was that the well-known group led by the infamous Master Johnny Walker?

George,

Many non-SpecOps troops are trained in MOUT. SOT includes MOUT, what they call CQB, and a number of other subjects, as you know. And at unit level, many infantry units, depending on their mission, practice CQB tactics as it is a part of their METL training (Mission Essential Task Listing), although this almost always excludes H2H.

Still, there is not an Army-sanctioned school that dedicates itself solely to CQC, either armed or unarmed. There are schools that include certain facets of it, as you pointed out, but there is not one proponent agency or school where one can attend a certification course in all aspects of CQC.

Basic Combat Training teaches CQC/CQB tactics, but that does not make basic training a "CQC school."

I apologize for not making my statement regarding CQC schools more clear. I would like to see a sanctioned school in the Army teach a complete CQC course for certification purposes, one that would accept students from all branches of the military and all MOS's. But there unfortunately is not one in existence at this time.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

George Kohler
31st August 2000, 17:05
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Many non-SpecOps troops are trained in MOUT.

Never said they didn't


Originally posted by Jeff Cook
SOT includes MOUT, what they call CQB, and a number of other subjects, as you know.

You can say that the school includes MOUT, but the reason they do not use the word is because they want to distinguish it from what the rest of the army teaches. What is taught at the school is shooting for accuracy, shooting at selected targets, shooting while manuevering with a team, manuevering in a building, team communication, and a few other things. I will say that a lot of the training is at the shooting range. And it is almost all basic CQB (H2H not included).


Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Still, there is not an Army-sanctioned school that dedicates itself solely to CQC, either armed or unarmed. There are schools that include certain facets of it, as you pointed out, but there is not one proponent agency or school where one can attend a certification course in all aspects of CQC.

This I would have to disagree. The school I mentioned above is nothing but CQB, but does not go through all aspects of it. It is basically a school that stresses on the basics of CQB. You are right, there is not one school that teaches all aspects of CQB, but to say that there is not an Army-sanctioned school that dedicates itself solely to CQB is inaccurate. Matter of fact, there is even a part two to the school that I mentioned, but it goes by a different name. Don't know exactly what is taught but only certain people can go to this one.

Jeff Cook
31st August 2000, 17:54
George,

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with your point. I was inaccurate the way I phrased it; thank you for pointing it out to me.

I guess I have a hard time in my mind giving them the "CQC school" label when they are only teaching a part of the CQC picture. That would be like teaching a combat-lifesaver course, and telling folks that they are now qualified as medics, when in fact all they learned was a small part of the combat medical specialist course (believe it or not, but I have heard graduates of this very short course referred to as "medics!"). They are teaching CQB, but they are not teaching the entire curriculum, only a part of it, therefore it would be difficult to certify someone from that school as being CQC-certified. Their tactics hinge upon their weapons being fully functional at all times; this excludes the entire training concept behind FM 21-150, "Combatives."

(I know you are not saying that they are learning CQC in whole; I am just explaining my position on this topic.)

But this is just my opinion; as of today, there is no official Army position regarding certification in CQC.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

scoundrel
31st August 2000, 18:18
George,

The school you are thinking of is SFARTETC.

George Kohler
31st August 2000, 18:46
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the clarification and I hope you didn't think I was getting on ya.

Hi Steven,

Thanks. I knew the name, but didn't want to get people confused with all these acronyms :)

BTW, I noticed you are from Washington. Are you in Ft Lewis?

scoundrel
31st August 2000, 20:57
George,

Good guess! I am at Fort Lewis. As for SFARTETC, friends of mine who have attended have described it being SOT "Plus". They teach the same CQB stuff as SOT and in addition, some advanced subjects such as C & C, planning, etc. As I understand it, it is a stand-alone course, not really a part II of SOT.

Jeff Cook
31st August 2000, 23:08
George,

You are welcome, and I expect you to get on me when I am out of line!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu