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View Full Version : Officer Down: King County WA dep slain w/own weapon



Kit LeBlanc
24th June 2002, 14:43
Illustrates that pepper spray isn't "all that" and the need for aggressive DT and weapon retention.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134480964_deputy24m.html

Darren Laur
25th June 2002, 05:55
At the beginning of our shifts, as we are getting kitted up, we do so knowing that today we are the protectors of modern society, who have sworn an oath to protect life and property. We do this job knowing that we are constantly under the microscope, being criticized by those whose freedoms we protect. We do this job knowing that today we could have to make the ultimate sacrifice to ensure that others may live. We do this job because we are the modern warriors that keep our loved ones and society safe. We do this job because we believe in duty, honor, and integrity. We do this job because few can or are willing. We do this job because we love what we do no matter how bad it can get. We do this job so that those who victimize others will be held accountable. We do this job to support our fellow brothers and sisters who are also doing the job. We do this job just because………..

Our profession has lost another brave soul, who dedicated his life to protecting others. My thoughts and prayers are with this officer, his immediately family, and his extended family of the King County Sheriff’s Office .

God Bless

Sgt Darren Laur
Victoria Police Department
British Columbia

George Ledyard
28th June 2002, 03:54
My partner, Tom Ovens and I were scheduled to do a pepper spray and impact weapons training two days after the shooting. We were interested to see how this incident effected the attitude of the officers we were training.

Appallingly it seemed to have had little effect. It was clear from the way that everyone trained that they really hadn't made the "there but for training go I" connection. It was almost like a case of denile that his experince could happen to them.

We are waiting to see if anyone starts asking the right questions about this incident but we aren't optimistic. Usually, every body wails about what a tragedy it is and then they don't change a thing about the frequency or type of training they provide these officers.

It really makes me sad when I see the kind of expertise on this forum, look around at my own area and see that great training is available but that the majority of aganecies will not do anything about it. If that officer had killed that subject the whole community would be up in arms and the media would be in a feeding frenzy. But no one seems to be asking what could have been done to avoid the tragedy from the standpoint of the agency and the officer. Instead all the focus is on the unfortunate nature of a drug addict for whom no free social programs exist. The subject has had far more attention than the officer himself. Makes me crazy.

Neil Yamamoto
28th June 2002, 18:22
George hit on the exact reason why I made the decision that training LEO personnel was not what I wanted to do in my training and martial arts. Yes, Bernie Lau's goal was to train those professionals who needed extra training, above and beyond what the state was willing or able to offer. But it wasn't where I wanted to be and for the same reasons George expressed.

I gave up, called what I was teaching with Bernie "Bonehead-jutsu" and quit putting any effort into teaching most of the LEO that came in the door unless they proved they were worth the time. Sure, there were a handful of motivated people, most of whom went on to teach and train people on their own. Jon Frantzen, who instructed at the WA state training center, summed it up with the statement refering to DT skills, "These guys(meaning the bulk of LEO's) want it to be able to learn it in ten minutes, they won't ever have to practice it again, and it will work everytime." Hard mindset to deal with and change.

The objections I received in those days are not any different now, my friends who are police officers have every excuse why they don't have time to train. Yet they sure have time to work on their cars, go ride their harley's, drink a few beers at any given moment. The only legitimate excuse I ever heard was "I need to spend time with my family."

Here on the forum there are a minority of people who are more motivated. So the view is different from what you get with the majority. Some of Ken Good's posts here and on Bugei.com on how his training is received is a good indicator. Some embrace it, lots reject it because it invalidates what they know. Seems to me the important thing is to be able to go home at the end of the day. I wish more would realize that.

Kit LeBlanc
28th June 2002, 18:38
Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto
The only legitimate excuse I ever heard was "I need to spend time with my family."




Sorry, Neil, that's not even a good one. Can't spend time with your family if yer dead.

Otherwise, you have to judge how training is recieved by a different standard, though. Don't expect those of us who have to go out and rely on what is taught to accept ANYTHING at face value until proven. There is a lot of crap out there by self promoters who want the government dollar. The whole idea that what are for the most part non-practicing LEOs, or occasionally practicing LEOs, will get very much at all of value from a 16 or 24 or 40 hour course, even of the best stuff out there, is suspect at best. The people giving instructor certifications after these things with no pre-req's should be ashamed of themselves....they are selling a false sense of security and the endorsement to pass this on to others.

It cuts both ways...we need to get expert martial artists who are ALSO LEOs to be at the cutting edge of the industry in order to address some of these problems...but having the slugs who dont bother to practice though it may save them, and the tactical hypesters who market their wares to exactly this kind of officer (that doesn't know any better) seems to be the way it is.

Note I am not referring to Ken and Surefire, most of whose staff are officers, former officers, or have real world military backgrounds (or is it Surefire...the signature says Strategos?). I still believe officers should question what they are being taught and pick what they like and what they don't. If they refuse to accept what among the instruction is clearly better, it's their problem.

Neil Yamamoto
28th June 2002, 19:08
Kit,

True enough, but it's still far better than " I got to go drink some Jack with the boys in the lot after shift." I can at least respect some one who values family but yeah, I threw that out at them in those days too, "My standard line was "Can't spend time with people who are dead unless you are into necrophilia or at their funeral."

You hit on another reason I quit teaching LEO, I didn't want to be a cop. I simply don't feel risking my ass for people I don't give a flying **** about was reasonable. Second, I didn't want go through the crap to get certified to teach and I had little respect for most of the people involved. If I wasn't going to roast a hot dog, stay away from the fire. As you say, the skill set is laughable if it weren't a serious matter.

One conversation I had with Bob Bragg years ago was an invitation via me to Don Angier to teach at the Master Instructors course over a weekend. When Bob mentioned it to me and told me it was the top people, I laughed and he said "Well,as good as can be expected." That was a sad commentary on the level of skill.

Anyone learning any MA or DT skill should question, that's what Bernie always did and insisted the seniors do, "If you can do better, show us." was the mantra. No argument there. Experience counts for more then titles or rank. Some of the best I've seen have no rank in MA, just experience at doing a good job.

But given the lack of interest, I think it's going to be pretty hard to develop anything unless the city/counties/state want to spend some money to support the LEO's interested.

Todd Prosser
30th June 2002, 09:16
I don't want to divert this thread from the loss of Deputy Herzog, but I have to agree with Kit and Neil's posts.
Most LEO's out there do not put much into their FOF training. Kit is one of those in the exception group and is very dedicated to MA.
The problem is that the current LEO's being recruited/hired today are far from that mindset. Most are straight out of college and their greatest asperation is to be the chief or sheriff. They really do not intend to spend any time on the 'street' and only see this 'phase' of their career as a inconvienent step.
Now my view is biased towards what occurs in a large metro police department and probably does not univerally apply to smaller or rural depts.
The other problem is that the senior officers out there now have given up on teaching new hires the so called 'warrior' way of old because the admins don't want anything that may seem heavy handed, justified or not, being taught nowadays.
Then there is the middle group who grew up in the heydays of law enforcement(the 80's). They learned if they were in trouble call for cover and 5-50 officers showed up to back you up in the fight. Let me tell you... that no longer happens.
So what are officers to do now? I will openly admit to 'cowboying' it early in my career. I'm lucky that nothing that bad happened, but I have injuries to remind me of my stupidty. I also have a good friend who died. A great guy who died because a POS human got drunk.
Community policing is the mantra of the current 'politically correct.' I believe this is the overall problem. Officers today are required to act like an everyday citizen. The everyday citizen is not able to deal with a regular, much less extradinary, day in a LEO's life. A higher degree of accountability exists. It should exist, but officers today should not act like everyday citizens and should go back to a more secluded and trained category of being professional law enforcement officers that are highly trained for all encounters. That obviously includes the most important use of force in defense of persons and property.

Todd Prosser

Sam Todd
1st July 2002, 20:20
Todd
Your efforts and concerns are noted and do exist in smaller agencies unfortunately. The mental aspects of the job slowing dwindle with time and the complacency of most officers that rarely are exposed to any threat be it by assignment or lack of effort takes them that much lcoser to ending up on the short end of the stick. It is beyond frustrating to have admin types interfere with training because some monore discomfort or sweating is involved. Even when you demonstrate a lack of ability or skill level it is rare for the point to meet it's mark. I have been lucky in not having lost and troops yet other that from lack or back bone. The ones that are more of a liability than asset to the profession may need to re think their futures. The less than 2% that work with me and train knowing the threats are real will take it as it comes and keep smiling. The rest is a headache in the making. First time post for me I am quite impressed with the info be discussed and topics that are available.

Sgt. Sam Todd

George Ledyard
3rd July 2002, 06:00
Did you guys hear that we had three narcotics officers wounded a couple of days ago? This is getting crazy.
Shooting Article (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134486132_shooting02e.html)

More guys who should have been in jail are free to shoot officers.

Joseph Svinth
3rd July 2002, 12:40
This one was literally supposed to be in jail -- he skipped bail.

Jeff Cook
3rd July 2002, 20:38
So, he called for backup. Why didn't he wait for it to arrive?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Todd Prosser
6th July 2002, 09:23
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
So, he called for backup. Why didn't he wait for it to arrive?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Sadly, because he died, we will never know.
There are to many possibilities to imagine.

Todd Prosser