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Amphinon
2nd July 2002, 21:44
Do you cross-train in different styles? Do you hold rank in multiple styles? Please vote...

TomMarker
3rd July 2002, 15:39
Vote where? :)

1st Dan in Tang Soo Do, 4 years Yang Style Tai Chi

Shitoryu Dude
3rd July 2002, 20:09
two styles of karate, plan to start taking Iaido, Kendo, or Kenjutsu sometime in the future.

What about Kobudo? I know several weapons, including some arnis.

:beer:

Steve C
5th July 2002, 09:10
I'm a karate dude at the moment, with a smattering of other stuff learned from lessons, friends, etc. I'm also training in renaissance two-handed longsword. ;)

My question, with the intent of further deepening the discussion, is this; why would you study more than one style at a time?

Two ideas, two very different approaches to multiple-style training occur to me.

One part of me says this;

Seems to me that you can only actually fight one way, so studying two styles gives you two slightly incompatible bodies of knowledge. The task of integrating the two now falls to you. Since you're in training, you are unlikely to be able to integrate the two well.

Perhaps a better way might be to search for a style or art that fits nicely between the two. So rather than aikido and karate, why not double-train in ju jitsu? That'd help avoid, well, mixed messages; The aikido training going 'don't harm!' and the karate training saying 'punch him in the throat!'..., the aikido training emphasising short stances, the karate opting for long, etc.

The other part of me thinks this;

By learning two styles, you get to see the weaknesses in each style that maybe you wouldn't have seen otherwise. Here's some experiences;

I went to an aikido session as a sixth kyu* in karate. At the end of the session we did a little randori**, and I was paired with a 1st dan black-belt. Because I knew how to punch well, and balanced, very little the shodan did worked, This makes me suspect that a lot of aikido practicioners can only defend themselves against aikido ukes***

I had a similar experience with a practicioner of ju jitsu, too, when we got some pads and did some free sparring. The guy couldn't defend himself against techniques thrown with intent.

Lastly, I have been in one real fight in my life, and my karate proved very deficient. At one point in the fight, I performed a perfect, point-scoring flying roundhouse with absolutely no power. Oops. He just looked at me like I was something on his shoe, Then he threw a big arcing hook, which I middle blocked, (uchi uke.) But middle block doesn't work against hooks. He rang my bell.

That exposed one of the deficiencies in the way karate is often taught; since karate basics (kihon) don't include hook punches, there's no need to defend against them, right? Hmm...

So by training in different arts, you can see different weaknesses and strengths. However, two styles in the same art might not provide enough contrast to each other...

So, there are my (contradictory) thoughts on the subject. But I've gone on far far too long... ;) Time for someone else to speak,

Steve

--
Japanese translations.

*kyu = grade, from 9 (bad) to 1 (good). After 1st grade is first black belt, Shodan

**randori = free sparring. I think the difference between randori and kumite is that randori is more co-operative, kumite more competitive. Anyone got a better description?

*** uke = victim partner. In pair practice, it's the nage who performs the technique, and the uke who falls, screams, gurgles, snaps, or whimpers.

Mike Williams
5th July 2002, 10:40
Originally posted by Steve C
I went to an aikido session as a sixth kyu* in karate. At the end of the session we did a little randori**, and I was paired with a 1st dan black-belt. Because I knew how to punch well, and balanced, very little the shodan did worked

...or it could be that he was going easy on you because you were a newcomer, because you didn't know how to breakfall, or because he wanted to see what *you* knew before cranking anything on.

There's probably a very good reason why you (as a newbie) were paired up with a Shodan, just like there's a very good reason why Uke in aikido tend to be quite co-operative.

The rest of your post, I largely agree with. But the anecdote above illustrates why it's a) dangerous to start crosstraining too early in your MA career, and b) dangerous to make an assumption about a style after one class.

Cheers,

Mike
(not an aikidoka, but I've taken some hard falls off people who were)

kenshorin
7th July 2002, 08:12
Originally posted by Mike Williams


Originally posted by Steve C
I went to an aikido session as a sixth kyu* in karate. At the end of the session we did a little randori**, and I was paired with a 1st dan black-belt. Because I knew how to punch well, and balanced, very little the shodan did worked

...or it could be that he was going easy on you because you were a newcomer, because you didn't know how to breakfall, or because he wanted to see what *you* knew before cranking anything on.

There's probably a very good reason why you (as a newbie) were paired up with a Shodan, just like there's a very good reason why Uke in aikido tend to be quite co-operative.

The rest of your post, I largely agree with. But the anecdote above illustrates why it's a) dangerous to start crosstraining too early in your MA career, and b) dangerous to make an assumption about a style after one class.


Or because he was trying to practice a particular thing and not trying to mess up the student...
Or because he was just in general a nice guy and didn't feel like busting up a student.

Case in point... I myself am a third dan in matsubayashi-ryu karate, so we don't do a lot of judo-style throws (we usually opt more for sweeps and takedowns over the hip throws etc.) But in the interest of being thorough, we were doing them. I was paired up with some newbie hotshot who also hand some low ranking kyu in Style-X. This low ranking kyu decided instead of working with me so we could both get better, that he was going to struggle and show me how ineffective I was, and how badass he was. So as I'm trying to do the throws from a static position just to get the moves down (and I do them more frequently, so I am pretty good at them) he's struggling and I couldn't do them. I could feel the smirk of this student, the "oh yeah you aren't no black belt, I got you..." so, on the next throw, I swiftly kicked him in the balls, and he leaned forward, right into my throw. One of the best throws I've done in a long time.

Could be the Shodan just wasn't as sadistic an a-hole as some people :rolleyes:

BTW, Mr. I-Got-Something-To-Prove quit not too long after that incident...

kenshorin
7th July 2002, 08:18
The above having been said, yes I cross train. I have been doing kobudo since I was a gokyu; my dojo had a kobudo program in place. After I got my shodan, I began to study a little jujutsu, and a little aikido, albeit not as seriously as the karate (which has been my core since I started martial arts). I have also done a spattering of fencing, kali and greco-style wrestling too. Like above, in the interest of being thorough.

Steve C
7th July 2002, 12:11
I see your points, guys. He could have been gentle on me, you're right...

I wasn't trying to rubbish any particular art, or styles; you'll notice the I'm-such-a-badass-I-got-punched-by-a-drunken-fool story doesn't paint my own skill in rosy tones. I presented the three stories with a purpose; to show that any style suffers the disadvantage of practicing against, well, people of that style. If you don't make certain attacks, you probably don't train to defend against them either. There's a huge list, but just a few common weaknesses might include karate with hook punches, uppercuts, and grappling, aikido with ground fighting and trained punches, tae kwon do with sweeping, etc.


The point being; maybe cross-training can help with those blind spots.

On the other hand, maybe mixing the established styles isn't as useful as putting all your energy into just one style, and going further...

Steve

Shitoryu Dude
8th July 2002, 02:27
6th kyu against Shodan - Shodan was being nice to newbie. I see this all the time, hell, I do it all the time. Favorite tactic to train newbie in kumite is to play defensive, note all the very obvious telegraphs the newbie has, and then start popping them lightly every single time they do it. This almost invariably has the same result - after getting popped in the nose 7 or 8 times in a row they stop and say "How do you keep DOING that!?". At that point I point out what is that they are doing so extremely wrong and we work on it.

I've even done this with 2nd and 3rd kyu brown belts, and quite honestly, I'm not as fast as these young guys anymore - I've just learned to be a smarter fighter. You typical black belt, in just about any MA, can wipe up the floor with a newbie. But by that time has learned restraint and is actively participating in training the newbie; that way the shodan learns by teaching.

:beer:

kenshorin
8th July 2002, 21:18
Originally posted by Steve C
I see your points, guys. He could have been gentle on me, you're right...

I wasn't trying to rubbish any particular art, or styles; you'll notice the I'm-such-a-badass-I-got-punched-by-a-drunken-fool story doesn't paint my own skill in rosy tones. I presented the three stories with a purpose; to show that any style suffers the disadvantage of practicing against, well, people of that style. If you don't make certain attacks, you probably don't train to defend against them either. There's a huge list, but just a few common weaknesses might include karate with hook punches, uppercuts, and grappling, aikido with ground fighting and trained punches, tae kwon do with sweeping, etc.


The point being; maybe cross-training can help with those blind spots.

On the other hand, maybe mixing the established styles isn't as useful as putting all your energy into just one style, and going further...

Steve

Steve -

I wasn't really trying to make you out to sound like the "I'm a badass" type, but the guy I was training with definitely was! You made some good points in your original post, and a few which IMO might be because of a lack of experience. Let me elaborate -

Cross training can definitely help "fill the gaps", but only after you have established a solid foundation. You mant to develop a strong core, and build around that. To try cross training too early will definitely stunt your growth in that core (as you mentioned above). Yes, a lot of theories in the martial arts can be contradictory at times, but when you fully understand one way, it makes learning the opposite easier. If you are trying to develop both at the same time, fuhgeddaboutit.

For instance, by your story about your fight, you mentioned that you used a "perfect, point-scoring flying roundhouse with absolutely no power"... this shows that you haven't learned (at least at the time the incident happened) to differentiate the difference between point sparring and real combat. As an example, consider yourself lucky he only threw a hook punch and didn't do what most people would do, go for a full out tackle, take you to the floor and mash you. Since tackling isn't in point sparring, he probably would have done you more damage had he done this.

Next, an uchi uke CAN properly handle a hook punch, but it would require more understanding of proper footwork (tai sabaki) to pull it off. The reason I bring this up is due to a comment you made; "That exposed one of the deficiencies in the way karate is often taught; since karate basics (kihon) don't include hook punches, there's no need to defend against them, right?" I think a slight addendum should be made here. Karate training DOES include hook punches. At a higher level, it involves basically anything you are likely to encounter. My addendum would be... "That exposed one of the deficiencies in the way karate is often taught AT MY LEVEL" because at a lower level, since you have not been exposed to everything, you might be found a little lacking at certain things. Frequently instructors are spending their time at the beginning levels "building for tomorrow" rather than the "instant self defense" taught by some other styles. Ultimately, thats OK, because "building for tomorrow" usually means you get better at you foundation rather than the too-much-too-soon (similar to the crosstraining argument I made earlier).

If by the time you get to a more advanced level and you still haven't learned that stuff, odds are you're stuck in a sport karate school, and real application ain't gunna happen.

Converse to what I just mentioned, there ARE holes in training in straight up karate; they are usually in things that don't involve "standing" fights. Grappling is in karate, but its not very thorough, and is usually taught as obscure moves found in some kata. To fill the gaps, you would want to take a more thorough grappling art.

Just remember; the best training isn't in any "style"... its in you making the most out of what is available. All styles have different ways of thinking, and each of them is adequate by themselves. You want to make sure that you develop YOUR core, and then build around it with the other ways of thought. Difficult, but well worth the journey. Good luck...

Steve C
9th July 2002, 08:53
kenshiron, thanks for all the comments. I appreciate the time you spent writing them.


you mentioned that you used a "perfect, point-scoring flying roundhouse with absolutely no power"... this shows that you haven't learned (at least at the time the incident happened) to differentiate the difference between point sparring and real combat.

Oh believe me, I've learned that lesson now... ;)

I guess you get what you train for. That's what I'm really trying to say. My flying roundhouses were mainly practiced against air, so they had no power. I'd never trained against a hook punch; so I couldn't defend against it. Now, I've got myself a heavy bag and train with people who _do_ use hooks and uppercuts in their sparring. And I've stopped training 'combat gymnastics', and focussed on learning powerful technique.

In other news... (back to the original post)

I'm also training in renaissance swordfighting, which I really hadn't expected to find any crossover in. However, quite a lot of the stances are very similar; move forward and strike in front stance, move back and defend in a wide variant of back stance... Also, we do drills for judging distance that have had a very positive effect on my karate.

Steve